Guild Wars 2

What I’d like to discuss is how to objectively determine of a class is OP or not so we could improve player feedback to anet.

So (bear with me, i’m not a top player and I´m hoping top players/ANET see this and either complement this post or create videos tackling this issue), being as it may I’ll kick off the ball:

When saying that a class is OP you need to think on all the stages of a conquest map, if your build over performs in team fights / small skirmishes / forcing decaps / +1s / rotating / team support, if your answer is yes to 3 or more of this points you should complaint, if not you should accept it and avoid that class in his strong points.

Let’s try to educate and help players (myself included) understand how to determine if a class is OP or not.

The problem is relativity. Standard D/D ele fit the bill last meta, but now not so much, yet it didn’t change. The other classes did. You can’t know what is OP unless you can see it against all the other meta builds for all the other classes and each combination thereof, and understand how they would synergise and approach enemy splits and rotations.

Pretty much everyone that has cried "OP!" in the past has been one that does not fully appreciate inter-class synergy and strategy at the higher levels, but have the "that’s good, that’s good, and that’s good; throw them together and you have a team," mindset and or, "Match start! Every man for himself! Go go go!" mind set.

An OP class is a class that, in most general combat situations, outperforms the other classes by a reasonable margin.

So far I do not think we have classes like that.
we have the majority of classes that do well across the board, and then a couple that just dont do much of anything.

It killed me, therefore it’s OP.

/thread

Azure The Heartless.3261:

An OP class is a class that, in most general combat situations, outperforms the other classes by a reasonable margin.

So far I do not think we have classes like that.
we have the majority of classes that do well across the board, and then a couple that just dont do much of anything.

I will have to disagree with that. or more precisely your choice of words.

the OP class has to outperform ALL other SIMILAR ROLES by a reasonable margin.

a proper balance it to figure out if the build fulfills its ROLE better than other ROLES.

example,
a Cleric Druid should 100% and reasonably outperform any non healer role but should not be able to outperform and DPS/Condi/CC role
You should not be able to kill a cleric druid 1v1 but also the cleric should not be able to kill you either due to its lack of DPS
^ this is extremely trivialized.

the balancing i am seeing the devs do does not reflect this method at all.
we see contradicting things like the recent nerfs to the druid. where a zerker druid is able to heal better than a cleric druid

(i use druid as an example a lot because i main one)

No class is “OP”, there are only “OP” builds.
You can determine what build is “OP” by comparing it’s damage output, survivability and utility to “UP” builds.

For example: DH is "OP compared to LB/Trap Ranger, because his LB is superior to the one used by Ranger (has better burst, lower CD on given burst [True Shot has less CD than Ranger on Rapid Fire by half], more utility), while he can also have access to Traps (which isn’t possible for LB Ranger since Ranger traps are condi based), also if Ranger decide to go Condi instead of LB, DH traps are still better for area denial, which makes classic Ranger builds completly not competitive, so Rangers are forced to pick supportive route as Druids.

Armor type * Health pool * Range * Damage done * Recharge time * Casting time * Number of targets

In that regard Revenant hammer is completely broken OP.

Depends on the class you are playing. For a core warrior like me, everything feels op. Even the critters.

I think it’s better to not look at out performing. But rather how much influence can a build have on the flow of a match? A build can be good in teamfights, forcing people of points and decapping. But that would still leave it open to for example bieng defeated in 1 v 1. It really depends on what kind of 3 aspects you are using. One could argue that it’s good but in terms of influence it’s not a gamebreaker.

Remember the times in which you had the turret engineer? It was impossible to cap a point. And having that guaranteed one to hold close or far. In terms of influence that really was a big deal. It drastically hinderd your ability to rack up points.

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

It killed me, therefore it’s OP.

/thread

Lmao this whole place in a nutshell

A red flag is when a certain class/builds are over-represented. People aren’t stupid they flock to what’s strong. I guess its just fluke luck that 99% of Guardians are using Dragon Hunter for instance. Nope nothing to see here.

To determine if something is OP, just compare it to the old d/d ele that ruled supreme for over 5 months (even after the slight nerf there was still 2 ele in most teams).

Based on that I can say that everything (but maybe berserker) is OP.

Amount of power creep is insane…

I can tell you what without any doubt is not OP at the current state of the game. It begins with T and finish for F

There is a lot to consider when considering something is OP, but right now there is the issue of too much.

Too much stuns, too much AoE, too much X on skills that don’t need X.

Like Dragons Maw for example, it’s already a very powerful CC with a very powerful condition, yet it can land a 3k critical? Why does it need damage?

Executioner’s Scythe is a stun, an execution skill and a AoE snare that lasts for 5 seconds. ArenaNet this is why traits exist to get more from your abilities or did you just forget that?

ArenaNet needs to take a step back and limit how much skills and traits do.

What is op is what is overrepresented (see mandatory for success) in high level pvp.
In this definition everybody will admit :
1) Revenant is OP as hell
2) Tempest ranger (correction) & Engi are coming after
3) Mesmer is not in a bad spot
4) Dragon hunter is in poor spot (not so surprisingly for me)
5) Warrior and thieves (correction) have disapeared
6) It is not worth talking about vanilla classes (due to classical opness of last stuff delivered on grindy mmo games)

Kicast.1459:

What is op is what is overrepresented (see mandatory for success) in high level pvp.
In this definition everybody will admit :
1) Revenant is OP as hell
2) Tempest & Engi are coming after
3) Mesmer is not in a bad spot
4) Dragon hunter is in poor spot (not so surprisingly for me)
5) Warrior has disapeared
6) It is not worth talking about vanilla classes (due to classical opness of last stuff delivered on grindy mmo games)

Do you play DH? Or it´s a joke?
Because i see always 1 or 2 DH per team and they have all the time a really important impact on the bg.

epouvante.7392:

Kicast.1459:

What is op is what is overrepresented (see mandatory for success) in high level pvp.
In this definition everybody will admit :
1) Revenant is OP as hell
2) Tempest & Engi are coming after
3) Mesmer is not in a bad spot
4) Dragon hunter is in poor spot (not so surprisingly for me)
5) Warrior has disapeared
6) It is not worth talking about vanilla classes (due to classical opness of last stuff delivered on grindy mmo games)

Do you play DH? Or it´s a joke?
Because i see always 1 or 2 DH per team and they have all the time a really important impact on the bg.

Yep, trolling

XxsdgxX.8109:

epouvante.7392:

Kicast.1459:

What is op is what is overrepresented (see mandatory for success) in high level pvp.
In this definition everybody will admit :
1) Revenant is OP as hell
2) Tempest , Ranger (forgot this one sry) & Engi are coming after
3) Mesmer is not in a bad spot
4) Dragon hunter is in poor spot (not so surprisingly for me)
5) Warrior has disapeared
6) It is not worth talking about vanilla classes (due to classical opness of last stuff delivered on grindy mmo games)

Do you play DH? Or it´s a joke?
Because i see always 1 or 2 DH per team and they have all the time a really important impact on the bg.

Yep, trolling

Not at all…look at ESL tournaments…there is less and less DH and winning team do not have any.
Orange logo has left his guardian and is running 2 revs.
Fifty five dragons has no DH too.
Tonight I only saw one DH which teams has been rekt.
Abjured has no DH neither.
All what i see is Two revs team destroying everything.

XxsdgxX.8109:

epouvante.7392:

Kicast.1459:

What is op is what is overrepresented (see mandatory for success) in high level pvp.
In this definition everybody will admit :
1) Revenant is OP as hell
2) Tempest & Engi are coming after
3) Mesmer is not in a bad spot
4) Dragon hunter is in poor spot (not so surprisingly for me)
5) Warrior has disapeared
6) It is not worth talking about vanilla classes (due to classical opness of last stuff delivered on grindy mmo games)

Do you play DH? Or it´s a joke?
Because i see always 1 or 2 DH per team and they have all the time a really important impact on the bg.

Yep, trolling

So who is the troll ?

Kicast.1459:

4) Dragon hunter is in poor spot (not so surprisingly for me)

Oh my god this is getting put it my signature

this is AMAZING.

People still think DH is top tier? Did people not watch the 1st week of pro league?

2 things came out of it.

1. Warriors are #1 Svanir killers
2. DH’s are mediocre with all the tanky classes and auramancers

If it is overrepresented in the top tiers you know it’s OP. Top players with lots of experience and research don’t pick classes just because. They pick them because they have deliberate advantages in a given role and have better sync than other class combinations.

any class I’m not playing that kills me.

Data is what will answer that question, and opinion polls of forum members is not the data we need. Arenanet could record several things in the game, for example, they could use a counter and register several things each time a team wins:

• classes used by winning team
• counter for each trait used by winning team increments by one
• runes and sigils counter
• amulet counter

That could give arenanet clue to problem traits of classes, or even combinations of traits, runes/sigil and/or amulet.

In Starcraft 2, they collect data about the win rate of races and the build orders. In League of Legends, they collect data of the win percentage, items bought, and the power spike of characters (when do they usually go strong in a battle).

HaxTester.9816:

Data is what will answer that question, and opinion polls of forum members is not the data we need. Arenanet could record several things in the game, for example, they could use a counter and register several things each time a team wins:

• classes used by winning team
• counter for each trait used by winning team increments by one
• runes and sigils counter
• amulet counter

That could give arenanet clue to problem traits of classes, or even combinations of traits, runes/sigil and/or amulet.

In Starcraft 2, they collect data about the win rate of races and the build orders. In League of Legends, they collect data of the win percentage, items bought, and the power spike of characters (when do they usually go strong in a battle).

Arenanet does this too. It just doesn’t correlate with what people think is happening so they don’t believe it.