Salt, salt, moar salt. So salty like fries from McDonald!
Playing Smite since mid s2, f broken gw2.
Playing Smite since mid s2, f broken gw2.
(edited by Burtnik.5218)
How to nerf scrapper in 4 steps
Nice thread indeed… 1 is Def broken, I didn’t know they could triple leap into the water field. I’ll see if I can come up with more suggestions but pretty much listed them all.
Nice thread indeed… 1 is Def broken, I didn’t know they could triple leap into the water field. I’ll see if I can come up with more suggestions but pretty much listed them all.
You can’t by yourself.
You need to use it in front of an obstacle that blocks your path in order to get all 3 leaps inside the field, or ofc use it on a target that will stand inside the same field during the leaps.
Nice thread indeed… 1 is Def broken, I didn’t know they could triple leap into the water field. I’ll see if I can come up with more suggestions but pretty much listed them all.
You can’t by yourself.
You need to use it in front of an obstacle that blocks your path in order to get all 3 leaps inside the field, or ofc use it on a target that will stand inside the same field during the leaps.
You will always leap at least 2 times inside water field when fighting on a point. Thats a fact. Its main reason why scrapper has so high sustain.
Salt, salt, moar salt. So salty like fries from McDonald!
Playing Smite since mid s2, f broken gw2.
Playing Smite since mid s2, f broken gw2.
Thief here,
sneak gyro is like a longer-lasting, mobile, refreshing Shadow Refuge with a shorter cooldown…
Wtf?
Not even is it better in every single way, such as being able to move and not being a GUYS EVERYBODY SHOOT HERE like Shadow Refuge is, but it has a shorter cooldown AND NO CAST TIME?
Omg, so broken.
Thief here,
sneak gyro is like a longer-lasting, mobile, refreshing Shadow Refuge with a shorter cooldown…Wtf?
Not even is it better in every single way, such as being able to move and not being a GUYS EVERYBODY SHOOT HERE like Shadow Refuge is, but it has a shorter cooldown AND NO CAST TIME?
Omg, so broken.
Tbf, you can always take out the gyro.
Surprisingly reasonable. I completely agree with everything.
You will always leap at least 2 times inside water field when fighting on a point. Thats a fact. Its main reason why scrapper has so high sustain.
Not at all, it depends on where you start the leap relative to the position of the center of the field if you don’t have a target (you can even make all 3 leaps inside the field if you start using it on the edge of the field), or where you target is positioned (standing inside the field or peeling off at the right time, etc.).
I’m not sure I would remove the Leap Finisher on Rocket Charge entirely, but I would reduce it from 3 finishers to 1.
I’m not sure I would remove the Leap Finisher on Rocket Charge entirely, but I would reduce it from 3 finishers to 1.
Seems fair, especially since they inexplicably nerfed Swoop to only have 1 leap finisher (then give scrapper a leap with 3 finishers??)
I still find it amusing that people are struggling against scrapper when rev, reaper, and ele are all stronger right now.
Scrapper is #4 though and the top 4 all do need a look.
I still find it amusing that people are struggling against scrapper when rev, reaper, and ele are all stronger right now.
Scrapper is #4 though and the top 4 all do need a look.
Lmao, I hope you are joking. The Engi from Rank 55 was the Mvp last season, dude totally carried his team. I can’t belive you actually think revs are #4. Dude, scrapper are stronger than revs in this meta.
I still find it amusing that people are struggling against scrapper when rev, reaper, and ele are all stronger right now.
Scrapper is #4 though and the top 4 all do need a look.
I don’t think eles are at all OP. Maybe a tempest bunker ele, as they are unkillable in 1v1, but other than that, I haven’t noticed anything completely unreasonable.
Engis have access to so much utility, a ton of dazes, and generally good damage.
The thing about engis is unlike most circumstances – there isn’t one skill or one aspect of the class that people can point to and say, “THAT IS OP,” however, they are OP in general simply because they may not be the best at any one role, but they are a jack of trades. They need to be subtly nerfed around the clock.
The OP made a good list of changes.
Rocket charge is a three part attack chain. It can be dodged or interrupted. If you remove the 3 stages of leap finishers and reduce it to one, then the damage coefficient instead of being spread across three strikes will instead apply to its first single strike. All you have essentially done is create a leap finisher that can hit like a truck.
Rapid regeneration only heals on 107 on swiftness and 470 on super speed. If both are active then it doesn’t add them together but works off of super speed only. In order to keep super speed you need to drop perfectly weighted. If you drop perfectly weighted you need to take rapid regen and forget mass momentum. If you take rapid regen then you need to take final salvo and forget adaptive armour.
There is no point in taking perfectly weighted unless your also going to take mass momentum and applied force.
If you take rapid regen regen then you also need final salvo and shocking speed.
This is one of the few trait lines in a profession in gw2 that actually supports either;
a) an aggressive play style
b) a defensive play style.
You can’t have both, unless your happy to entirely kitten yourself.
Engineer is neither strong or weak. The bigger issue is that other builds that would make short work of them don’t have the damage numbers for the tools they have that would challenge an engineer.
Any time a player makes the investment in a profession they need to have certainty that it will remain consistent. This universally better for the game and the player. However number tweaks should be part of a healthy balance patch. This ideally would apply to every profession every patch.
I am neither for, or against engineers but I don’t think changing skills entirely in any profession is the key to balance. We all saw what happened to warrior and mesmer when the decision was made to entirely change skills in order to balance them..they lost their player base, became unfunctional to use, ended up with traits being placed in deeply bizarre skill tree’s and now are not represented in any significant way in ranked matches.
(edited by CntrlAltDefeat.1465)
I still find it amusing that people are struggling against scrapper when rev, reaper, and ele are all stronger right now.
Scrapper is #4 though and the top 4 all do need a look.
Lmao, I hope you are joking. The Engi from Rank 55 was the Mvp last season, dude totally carried his team. I can’t belive you actually think revs are #4. Dude, scrapper are stronger than revs in this meta.
lolololol. Yeah, because in the season 1 championships every team ran 2 engi. Oh wait. At least watch the matches if you are going to criticize.
It’s ok if you didn’t watch the matches, but don’t pretend like you did.
Besides, why are you so intent on arguing the rankings? The top 4 all need to be looked at.
(edited by style.6173)
I just find it bizarre that players have to keep pointing out obviously OTT classes. The devs need to queue up for ranked solo and see what is going on for themselves (using all classes – if they know how), because they seem to have a distorted view of PvP that is not based on reality. With the introduction of elites they broke many of the basic rules of fair and enjoyable PVP game play. Counterplay being one of many.
Rocket charge is a three part attack chain. It can be dodged or interrupted. If you remove the 3 stages of leap finishers and reduce it to one, then the damage coefficient instead of being spread across three strikes will instead apply to its first single strike. All you have essentially done is create a leap finisher that can hit like a truck.
I don’t see why damage on it would get changed at all. Just pick one of the three strikes and say “this one is the leap.” I would argue the first one should have a leap finisher and the other two do not, just so the finisher aspect is more reliable.
Also, you are flat out wrong when you say “Rapid Regeneration” doesn’t stack. If you have Super Speed and Swiftness, you get the healing for both.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
Lmao, I hope you are joking. The Engi from Rank 55 was the Mvp last season, dude totally carried his team. I can’t belive you actually think revs are #4. Dude, scrapper are stronger than revs in this meta.
lolololol. Yeah, because in the season 1 championships every team ran 2 engi. Oh wait. At least watch the matches if you are going to criticize.
It’s ok if you didn’t watch the matches, but don’t pretend like you did.
Besides, why are you so intent on arguing the rankings? The top 4 all need to be looked at.
I agree that rev is OP, and if it wasn’t for the class stacking rule, there would still be 2 revs per team while most likely only 1 scrapper. However, this is just because revs have more team-fighting pressure, so they stack better than scrapper. At the end, both classes have too much sustain for the amulet they are running. They can both fight 2v1 for a long time and that should not happen with berserker/marauder.
Feel free to make your own list for rev if you want, that does not change the fact that scrapper needs a nerf.
You need to use it in front of an obstacle that blocks your path
yeah like an enemy, which is the case 90% of the time?
good suggestions OP.
Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE
1. Rocket Charge: reduce number of leap finishers to 1 (only initial leap)
this lets scrapper keep the utility of the leap finisher in most regards (it would act mostly the same when comboing most fields since one leap is usually all you can manage) while specifically nerfing it’s ability to combo it’s own water field by 66%. i think this is a much more fair solution than just removing it altogether as it also removes the need to buff passive healing as you mentioned considering they would be retaining roughly the same amount of healing through the leap finisher.
2. Shock Shield: increase CD to 32sec or decrease damage by 33%.
this skill makes no sense. it’s incredibly strong defensively but at the same time ridiculously offensive with it’s damage output.
3. Sneak Gyro: give it a 3/4 second cast time with a moderately visible animation- similar to Crate. alternatively, make the Gyro considerably easier to kill.
4. Perfectly Weighted: decrease Stability duration to 1 second, or reduce hammer damage increase to 5% and make it 2 seconds.
if there were no damage modifier for hammer, i’d say the Stability duration is fine as is, however this skill is doing far too much for scrapper both offensively and defensively in it’s current form.
(edited by sinject.4607)
Scrapper isn’t too far off from being balanced actually.
I disagree with the nerf to Rocket, but I wouldn’t mind seeing Scrappers being bounced around some more given that they are already pretty susceptible to Conditions.
Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
1. Biggest offender here aka Rocket Charge – remove leap finisher
Its main reason what makes scrapper so broken, triple leap finisher in water field? Yes please..
2. Perfectly Weighted – remove stability
Engineer was supposed to be weak to cc so im not sure what so high stab uptime doing here
3. Rapid Regeneration – halve the amount of healing but increase scaling.
Atm theres no point to get healing power on engineer. It scales like kitten while the base regen is quite high.
4. Add cast time to Sneak Gyro so it cant be used under cc
Cus its pure bs and free reset button if you dont have reveal.
Feel free to flame /shrug
1. Reducing to only having a leap finisher on the first leap is a great idea.
2. Who decided Scrapper was supposed to be weak to CC. The spec is designed to fight in melee. Trait is fine as is.
Definitely agree with 3 and 4.
Btw, I say all this with more hours played on my Engi than any other class.
1. Biggest offender here aka Rocket Charge – remove leap finisher
Its main reason what makes scrapper so broken, triple leap finisher in water field? Yes please..
2. Perfectly Weighted – remove stability
Engineer was supposed to be weak to cc so im not sure what so high stab uptime doing here
3. Rapid Regeneration – halve the amount of healing but increase scaling.
Atm theres no point to get healing power on engineer. It scales like kitten while the base regen is quite high.
4. Add cast time to Sneak Gyro so it cant be used under cc
Cus its pure bs and free reset button if you dont have reveal.
Feel free to flame /shrug
Can we also get a nerf to your main first?
Champion Illusionist Champion Hunter Champion Phantom Champion Magus
I am going to start with saying I do not play the Meta Scrapper, I play a build I have come up wityh myself and it is full Gyro build and it works fantastic at my skill-level. I make mashed potatoes of most classes (inclided Scrappers and necroes) though necros are the ones I have most problems with. If I rotate my skills in a bad way or get interrupted to much (Wich is pretty easy to do this season) I can be dead in seconds.
Now I have fought against tanky Scrappers and tanky tempests and they are the only builds I can not defeat and I do agree with many that Scrappers are very OP but if Anet where to listen to OP they would shoot Scrapper further down than Warrior and Thief is at the moment.
For my build I don’t use ‘2. Perfectly Weighted – remove stability’ so this change would go uneffected on me but still make my build viable.
‘1. Biggest offender here aka Rocket Charge – remove leap finisher’ I use this skill as one of my healing skills and yes thanks to my healing gyro my toolbelt skill is a water field that moves with me so I get a 3 times healing from doing it but I do not see any massive healing from it. I usually use it when I am in a pinch and heve to get out of battle, then I deselect target and rocke charge away, usually standing in place atleast fightint a DH or a Reaper (You don’t wanna be close to them too much and as Rocket charge (For me as I don’t have kits) can’t be canceled I would jump in to my own death if I don’t plan my charge but one AoE skill from a DH or a Reaper will nullify the amount of HP healed from 3 leap finishers in the waterfield. Also keep in mind that Rocket charge is the only gap closener skill (atleast my build have) so if I need to reach my enemy in time or something I have to sacrefice this skill I use for secondary healing.
I can agree with this ‘3. Rapid Regeneration – halve the amount of healing but increase scaling.’ even though I am totally in need of this trait myself and I don’t use healing power amulet but I think all secondary healing skills should be affected more by healing power and not by a base value.
Well ‘4. Add cast time to Sneak Gyro so it cant be used under cc’ This one would ruin my build totally as it’s main problem is that it does not have any stability or even Stunbreak skills (I know sick right!?) but it has all gyros that can be used instant even if I am CC’d in any way, so that is my only defence when stunned (and also that I do have a trait that lowers my CC’time). The thing about Gyros is that I can use them instantly but I can not blow them up if I am CC’d and for me that is a great problem, atleast for my Healing Gyro becouse I need it destroyed and on CD as long as my trait is active.
What I am trying to say is if you nerf all these skills and traits you mentioned then you will break the whole Elite spec and probably the whole class, remember that that is not a good direction for Anet to take. It’s not that you see 5 scrappers in a team 40% of every match you play, Scrappers are OP yes but not the only class that is OP so by nerfing it to the ground is not a good solution.
But on the other hand, all your nerfs are aimed at only Elite Spec so if all classes get’s massive nerfs on their Elite specs I am game as this will hopefully make core builds usefull again.
Member of Alpha Swedish Gaming Community – http://www.alphas.se/
Guild Leader of Alpha Sgc [ASGC]
Guild Leader of Alpha Sgc [ASGC]
1. Biggest offender here aka Rocket Charge – remove leap finisher
Its main reason what makes scrapper so broken, triple leap finisher in water field? Yes please..
2. Perfectly Weighted – remove stability
Engineer was supposed to be weak to cc so im not sure what so high stab uptime doing here
3. Rapid Regeneration – halve the amount of healing but increase scaling.
Atm theres no point to get healing power on engineer. It scales like kitten while the base regen is quite high.
4. Add cast time to Sneak Gyro so it cant be used under cc
Cus its pure bs and free reset button if you dont have reveal.
Feel free to flame /shrug
1. Reducing to only having a leap finisher on the first leap is a great idea.
2. Who decided Scrapper was supposed to be weak to CC. The spec is designed to fight in melee. Trait is fine as is.
Definitely agree with 3 and 4.
Btw, I say all this with more hours played on my Engi than any other class.
CC was a issue for core engi ,but anet just threw so many good passive traits to engi for them to counter cc .but it results in a passive play fashion .
its better we reduce cc from all classes and cut off those ridiculous stability uptime or reapplication . Same goes for boons and boon corruption .
And engi was weak to CC mainly due to they had to slot kits to be viable (usually more than one kit),but that resulted less stunbreak choice they had .currently meta engi build is around one kit and all those passive traits .Id like anet actually gives engi stunbreak on proper toolbelt skill rather than keeping the passive play.
Exterminate gyro smash, that’s kittening OP really. You can down 1 and revive the other at the same time, WUT?
I still find it amusing that people are struggling against scrapper when rev, reaper, and ele are all stronger right now.
Scrapper is #4 though and the top 4 all do need a look.
Lmao, I hope you are joking. The Engi from Rank 55 was the Mvp last season, dude totally carried his team. I can’t belive you actually think revs are #4. Dude, scrapper are stronger than revs in this meta.
Yes, he may have done so, but given the time and effort, a good Rev will beat a good Engi. It just takes a good while and not usually worth the 1v1 effort. Engi just has a LOT more team utility than a Rev does, but Rev has much more damage than an Engi can sustain for a long period of time.
Exterminate gyro smash, that’s kittening OP really. You can down 1 and revive the other at the same time, WUT?
Gyro stomp is just gross. Makes me mad everytime I see an Engi stomp someone while downing someone else.
1. Biggest offender here aka Rocket Charge – remove leap finisher
Its main reason what makes scrapper so broken, triple leap finisher in water field? Yes please..
2. Perfectly Weighted – remove stability
Engineer was supposed to be weak to cc so im not sure what so high stab uptime doing here
3. Rapid Regeneration – halve the amount of healing but increase scaling.
Atm theres no point to get healing power on engineer. It scales like kitten while the base regen is quite high.
4. Add cast time to Sneak Gyro so it cant be used under cc
Cus its pure bs and free reset button if you dont have reveal.
Feel free to flame /shrug
Can we also get a nerf to your main first?
Already did? Among the buffs in other areas ofc. Feel free to check.
Salt, salt, moar salt. So salty like fries from McDonald!
Playing Smite since mid s2, f broken gw2.
Playing Smite since mid s2, f broken gw2.
While there are big issues on the scrapper lets calm down for a second.
The engineer was intended as a class with incredibly strong utilities but weaker weapons (that being non kits). Of course not all utility skills are strong (cough turrets) but at its best this holds true. The scrapper on the other hand goes against this with a very strong main weapon, and weaker utilities (blast gyro, shredder gyro, cleanse gyro). The result of this is naturally that players cherry picks the amazing utilities like slick shoes, elixir gun etc. and run it with the hammer. I believe that the base engineer is balanced, i also believe that the base scrapper (meaning a gyro user) is balanced. What needs to happen is that if stuff like removing leaps on rocket charge happens we need to move that power over to the gyros.
The thing with rocket charge for example, outside of the chained daze combo being a cornerstone in the design of the hammer (like having backstab but no cloak and dagger or blackpowder) is that a lot of the gyros toolbelts essentially only serve as combo initiators (despite mortar being a thing…). Medic gyro creates a water field, cleanse gyro create a poison field, shredder creates a lightning field (ha ha………). So if we nerf rocket charge to one leap for example how about we make medic gyro pulse healing, poison field causes weakness and lightning field-…. i dont know about that one cause shredders so bad anyway it wouldn’t matter.
Another thing is that the trait rapid regeneration should not heal on swiftness. In a battle of endurance the healing provided by this is substantial and has even less thought behind it, even if super speed healing is a more noticeable burst. And when it comes to SS slick shoes is the villain here with the short, short cooldown on its stunbreak, upp that with a 5-10 sec combined with swiftness healing removed and the meta scrapper sees a nerf to its sustain (not a nuke it from orbit nerf mind you) while the scrappers relying on scrapper mechanics and sacrifices to provide super speed (after which it is balanced for) is unaffected.
As for perfectly weighted this trait should maybe have its cooldown and duration increased instead, less spammy and allowing for a larger window of counterplay for stopping easy might stacking. What needs to be understood is that all the scrapper tree consists of three paths to choose from: damage mitigation (prot matrix, Ex Ex, AA), super speed and regeneration(shocking speed, rapid regeneration, final salvo) and stability to offense (perfectly weighted, mass momentum, applied force). Breaking the synergy entirely instead of tweaking stuff like duration is probably not the best way to handle this.
But i completely agree about the sneak gyro, its not meant to be a panic button like blinding powder but a tactical stealth like shadow refuge. An activation time preserves the intended use of this skill and prevents panic buttoning out of well placed focus.
And about the function gyro. Its all it does. During the entire fight the entire new mechanic of the scrapper only does this. And it barely does it well with it being glassy, susceptible to CC and stupid Its a severe case of “you had one jobb”. Its not a time traveling mechanic or a scythe demon form or an extra dodge but a situational utility. It might be strong when it sees use and it is a deal or no deal (which is when its the most humiliating as well). But think of it as a mechanic that could otherwise have been used during the battle to get you down in the first place or prevent his ally from having to be revived it makes more sense having it the way it is.
TL:DR Engineer is balanced, scrapper is balanced. Scrapineer is not. Balance accordingly.
(edited by miriforst.1290)
Just tune down sustain, nerf sneak gyro, eradicate gyro stomp, and you still got a pretty fun kit to play with while not wiping its behind with the rest.
I don’t think Function Gyro would necessarily be OP if it actually showed up on screen consistently.
I still find it amusing that people are struggling against scrapper when rev, reaper, and ele are all stronger right now.
Scrapper is #4 though and the top 4 all do need a look.
Lmao, I hope you are joking. The Engi from Rank 55 was the Mvp last season, dude totally carried his team. I can’t belive you actually think revs are #4. Dude, scrapper are stronger than revs in this meta.
Yes, he may have done so, but given the time and effort, a good Rev will beat a good Engi. It just takes a good while and not usually worth the 1v1 effort. Engi just has a LOT more team utility than a Rev does, but Rev has much more damage than an Engi can sustain for a long period of time.
Ok, go on chaith twitch account and look for last night stream… Chaith 2 vs 1 a rev and someone else and he 2as also able to 1 vs 1 a rev but that fight was quite long.
I don’t think Function Gyro would necessarily be OP if it actually showed up on screen consistently.
It’s too darn small really, try to find it inbetween minions, pets, clones and whatnot.
What about stomp whilst being invunerable. I mean have stab and on top of that they can stomp on their mini form??
I really hate it when people whine that a class seems in their eyes op. If you nerf scrapper with your 4 steps it would remove scrappers out of gw2.
Take a look at wvw roaming, I had a duell yesterday: hammer scrapper vs rifle/ft base engi, and this was very well balanced.
The only reason why scrapper sustain seems op is because with hammer you are NOT forced to take a damage kit or damage trait line, you can go full defensive
I still find it amusing that people are struggling against scrapper when rev, reaper, and ele are all stronger right now.
Scrapper is #4 though and the top 4 all do need a look.
You really think this?
I really hate it when people whine that a class seems in their eyes op. If you nerf scrapper with your 4 steps it would remove scrappers out of gw2.
Take a look at wvw roaming, I had a duell yesterday: hammer scrapper vs rifle/ft base engi, and this was very well balanced.
The only reason why scrapper sustain seems op is because with hammer you are NOT forced to take a damage kit or damage trait line, you can go full defensive
Where i was whining? Im really curious. And by removing them you mean actually it would bring them in line? Anyone is free to jump on scrapper and duel with a friend. Play few matches like usual meta build plays and play few without the mentioned traits and leaping through water field.
Look that i didnt mentioned any nerfs to hammer damage bc i think they are not needed for example. But well.. bias is bias
Salt, salt, moar salt. So salty like fries from McDonald!
Playing Smite since mid s2, f broken gw2.
Playing Smite since mid s2, f broken gw2.
I really hate it when people whine that a class seems in their eyes op. If you nerf scrapper with your 4 steps it would remove scrappers out of gw2.
Take a look at wvw roaming, I had a duell yesterday: hammer scrapper vs rifle/ft base engi, and this was very well balanced.
The only reason why scrapper sustain seems op is because with hammer you are NOT forced to take a damage kit or damage trait line, you can go full defensive
In wvw gear matter, perhaps the reason why the base engi was able to sustain was because he had better gear than you or more/ better proc ing food than you.
I think something can be done to slick shoes too. Either make it end when interrupted or make it only hit targets once.
“Power is like the illuminati of Guild Wars.” -Loshon
2. Who decided Scrapper was supposed to be weak to CC. The spec is designed to fight in melee. Trait is fine as is.
What about actual heavy armor classes? Warriors? Guardians?
Scrappers can fight in melee far better than the other two soldier professions.
That’s not right at all.
I think something can be done to slick shoes too. Either make it end when interrupted or make it only hit targets once.
It just needs to not kd anyone standing still tbh.
Automated medical response and Hidden flask. This traits need to be moved into one category, so you have to choose between one of them. Or at least make them a master or grandmaster choice instead of adept and adept minor. Its literally a free ‘reset fight now’. Engis are not the only class capable of this, but there is simply no way to stop them from doing it. If you still want to automatically escape certain death and heal for your full health, at least sacrifice some other strong traits for it.
2. Who decided Scrapper was supposed to be weak to CC. The spec is designed to fight in melee. Trait is fine as is.
What about actual heavy armor classes? Warriors? Guardians?
Scrappers can fight in melee far better than the other two soldier professions.
That’s not right at all.
this does not mean scrapper is OP, just shows that Warriors are severely under powered and that the guardians have been pigeonholed into DH traps and are also underpowered everywhere else,
scrappers are in a decent place, and most of the nerfs requested in this thread would remove them from pvp completely
Nerf the BS that is Reaper and Guardian then you can come nerf Scrapper.
nerfing b/s low cd on healing turret would be a good start as well
Alex Shadowdagger – Thief – Blacktide