Guild Wars 2

…that classes were able to fill the same role, but in different ways.

For example, Warrior could bring support via Shouts healing and removing conditions while Engis could bring healing bombs and water fields to blast in. Thieves could bring high single target damage by being evasive and stealthy while Guardians use their Meditations.

While the individual concepts are still generally there, often times one class is now simply better at doing a certain role than every other class. In addition to that, the trait lines have become very muddled in terms of the role they’re supposed to fit. Some are fine and it’s more of a matter of numbers than functionality. Other lines however are either too broad or too narrow.

One example would be Alchemy on Engi. On the same line you can get access to Protection, passive regen, and also Might. Of course you’re going to see this line see heavy use. Engi as a class has either been a jack of all trades and master of none, or a jack of all trades master of all. Engi is my second most played class but atm I just feel dirty playing it right now because I just bring so much to the table: good damage, team support, CC, and even stealth (and a counter to enemy stealth).

Compare this to Warrior, I actually think that despite its flaws it is still one of the better designed classes. The Strength line is for damage, the Defense line if for…defense, the Tactics line if for (mostly) support, and so on. Warrior is underwhelming mostly due to numbers and the fact that almost every other class has become self sufficient and so individual roles are less prevalent.

TL;DR: We don’t need buffs, we need for almost every class to be scaled back and for each trait line to be more focused so that choices are actually meaningful and that there’s significant tradeoffs.

+1
Agree with everything

I main warrior, so I definitely get our tradeoff but I doubt engi are that perfect. I mean they have to sacrifice something to get burst/sustain or whatever.

online.1278:

Anet need to sell HoT, thus they will always make elite OPer than core.

To just sum up,
what anet did is simply described as following that, they removed diversity from the game and i see this game is currently no different than those game with no build diversity (or very limited), such as BnS, Tera and etc..

And think,

if there is no build diversity which was special merit that we can only see in this game uniquely, but not in other games, then what’s the pount of playing gw2 since balance is even worse than those games with no build diversity? As gw2 is also game that forces people playing meta to let them win matches, and has no build diversity sinc;e elite spec is OPer than core.

So, let me ask you this, is chrono OPer than core m3smer?

Anet need to sell HoT, thus they will always make elite spec generally OPer than core spec.

To just sum up,
what anet did is simply described as following that, they removed diversity from the game and i see this game is currently no different than those game with no build diversity (or very limited), such as BnS, Tera and etc..

And think, here is a real important point,

if there is no build diversity which was special merit that we can only see in this game uniquely, but not in other games, then what’s the point of playing gw2 since balance is even worse than those games with no build diversity? As gw2 is also same game that forces people playing meta to let them win matches, and has no build diversity since elite spec is OPer than core.

This is why i am taking long break from gw2 until i see equality and diversity between core and elite spec.

But even the diversity allowed, removing build like dd cele ele was wise decision, or they could just nerf dd cele ele a bit more not to make all dd cele eles completely quit the game instead of completely removing cele ammy.

But anyway, this is already “done project”.

You can summarize the problem with two words: Power Creep

Instead of nerfing stuff which is too good, ANet is adding more things to already powerful specs and abilities. Elite specs are crapping out boons? Instead of scaling that back, they gave necro more boon strip. Arms races like that are the downfall of games – and not just for PvP.

BurrTheKing.8571:

While the individual concepts are still generally there, often times one class is now simply better at doing a certain role than every other class.

This problem has always existed and will always exist. Nostalgia aside, given multiple different ways to do something, one of those ways will invariably be better than the others.
This is why balancing asynchronous classes is a impossibility.

Crinn.7864:

BurrTheKing.8571:

While the individual concepts are still generally there, often times one class is now simply better at doing a certain role than every other class.

This problem has always existed and will always exist. Nostalgia aside, given multiple different ways to do something, one of those ways will invariably be better than the others.
This is why balancing asynchronous classes is a impossibility.

This was very close though pre HOT. There were support eles/ warriors/guardians.

The best 1 vs 1 classes could be anyone depending on the class match up. Dps warrior beat a necro yet a necro beat just about everything else. yet if a necro was caught running from 1 point to another and didnt see the mesmer/thief coming it could easily be taken out.

If you look at the ESL matches right before HOT came out as well 1 team ran 2 power rangers with 2 d/d eles and a thief. The abjured countered it with 2 engys.

If Esports wanted to make it as fair as possible, instead of saying no class stacking they could just ask anet to balance the game and say no class switching during a tournament.

GW2 needs a lot of work, and the “old” design concepts are what got us into this sad mess in the first place…

The base combat mechanics of freedom of movement and the general “smoothness” to gameplay are good. Professions are subpar at best. “Roles” and build diversity are the poorest I’ve ever seen in a game…

Professions don’t need tweeks, they need to be blown up and redone. Traits need to be redone and make sense. Many weapon designs and damage need to be reevaluated to become equally competitive. Actual and robust roles and builds need to be far far far better defined. Health needs to be reevaluated. Conditions need to be scaled back in spvp and wvw by diminishing returns and condition status effects immunity for X seconds after cleansing. Mid combat stealth abilities need to be given very long cool downs and designed for emergency only, not used over and over. Thief needs to be heartier outside of stealth. All pets, including mesmer “clones” should be given different colored nameplates with have above head texts that clearly mark them as AI. ALL professions should have EQUAL access to movement related skills because you can’t have a competitive environment with this imbalance. Spvp needs new maps solely focused on player(s) vs player(s) combat, not players attacking to get and defending circles.

This side of the game is a neglected mess, it needs a 2.0 revamp.

The game already lost its charme in late 2k14 with an increasing power creep and has been dead since the trait overhaul in June. Being able to choose from 3 full traitlines was the worst thing that happened to this game. It not only lead to an ongoing power creep, but also removed a lot of weaknesses for each class, which initally made this game fun to play and kept build diversity more or less alive.

ANet desperately tries to push for Esports, but Esports can only evolve through a solid foundation, which has never been the case for GW2 since PvP had been neglected for almost 3 years. Whats even worse is that despite ANet trashing 400k into PvP, nobody really cares about GW2. From what I’ve heard Pro League barely managed to get 3k viewers on a weekly basis. Congratulations ANet, that was some well spend money. Leave the Esports Part for BnS that atleast has a healthy frame and finally go back to your 2k13 – 2k14 philosophy.

The game completly shifted away from its original design and is now plagued by tons of passive procs, bad trait design, kittenty balance, Elite Specs and overloaded weapon skills. At this point it is no more than a spamfest that has little, if any, to do with skill. It’s sad how disconnected ANet is from it’s players and how they managed to ruin a great game. Well done lads.

Swagger.1459:

snippet

Do you realize that you’re basically describing Blade and Soul PvP? If thats what you want for GW2 PvP go and play BnS instead of GW2. GW2 being conquest PvP is totally fine despite what people may say. The game isn’t balanced around 1v1, it never was and never will. With that being said all it needs is a shift in ANets philosophy back towards its roots, because after all GW2 used to be a good game, they just continue to make bad decisions for PvP instead of listening to their players.

laquito.5269:

Swagger.1459:

snippet

Do you realize that you’re basically describing Blade and Soul PvP? If thats what you want for GW2 PvP go and play BnS instead of GW2. GW2 being conquest PvP is totally fine despite what people may say. The game isn’t balanced around 1v1, it never was and never will. With that being said all it needs is a shift in ANets philosophy back towards its roots, because after all GW2 used to be a good game, they just continue to make bad decisions for PvP instead of listening to their players.

No, I’m not talking about bns, that game was refunded quickly. I never mentioned 1v1 either, don’t know where you assumed that…

Also, sorry, but the professions in GW2 were never good at all, they were and are still subpar at best.

This is not the only game I’ve played, but gander below at all the “professions” and mixed teams that I experienced in zone and arena pvp… With the exception of the stone tank and fire/kinetics controller, everything was played. Sure there were “meta” builds and skills, but there was a hell of a lot more variety and diversity in coh compared to what we have in GW2.

Different “Professions” did different things better, but everyone contributed, depended on others for success and were also self reliant to a degree. There were tons of roles to play and actively control like tank, melee and ranged dps, control, buff, debuff, disruption and healing…

Also, things like status effects systems and management were better. All Stealth and counter stealth mechanics made sense. Play and counterplay and team support with powers and positioning and movement were keys to success. All players were given access to a variety of movement based powers as well to keep on equal “footing”, thus elimination movement disparities… Hi stuff like Necro vs Thief lol…

Overall, the professions in gw2 were budget made and are budget maintained, they pale in comparison to many things I’m use to…

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Archetypes

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Power

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Power_Pools

Power pools served many functions such as movement skills and helped professions fill certain gaps. They added another layer to character building as well.

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Inspirations

Inspirations were like “potions” in other games that added another layer of support to individual characters and served many functions.

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception

There was not mid combat stealthing, there were emergency use abilities in time of need to compensate. You had to break combat to restealth. These designs made much more sense than what gw2 does.

Gw2 condition system in spvp and wvw is terrible all around. This is what needs to be done…

“Status Effect Protection
In PvP zones, effects that normally provide Protection against status effects provide Resistance instead. It is not possible to prevent effects like Holds and Immobilization in PvP – only shorten them. (Knockdown, Knockback, and Knockup are not included in this. Protection against these can still be found.)

Status Effect & Knockback Suppression
Every time a character recovers from a Hold, Immobilize, Disorient, Sleep, or Fear status, that character becomes immune to all five of those effects from other players for 15 seconds. Every time a character suffers a Knockdown, Knockback, or Knockup effect, that character becomes immune to all three of those effects from other players for 10 seconds. These two timers are independent. It should be noted that Confuse effects, while technically mezzes, are on a separate 15-second timer than the other mezzes listed above."

I could go on and on with the far superior “profession” and combat mechanic differences of coh, but I’ll end with this…

GW2 profession roots were based off of self reliance, auto attacking, dodge rolls and dps, but professions were given “schticks” to make them different… In the end what you have are quasi roles because of a couple neeto powers that do something for 2-3 seconds… Yay… These things are not good enough, or even good for that matter. GW2 professions need to be blown up and the devs need to do a “gw2 fantasy game” revision based off the of the game referenced above.

Totally agree.
I can’t stand the wash all classes together BS. It’s like why would you have classes anyway if they didn’t have different roles. I guess it pleases the masses to make the gameplay more simple and universal so every1 can do everything most the time.

BurrTheKing.8571:

…that classes were able to fill the same role, but in different ways.

For example, Warrior could bring support via Shouts healing and removing conditions while Engis could bring healing bombs and water fields to blast in. Thieves could bring high single target damage by being evasive and stealthy while Guardians use their Meditations.

While the individual concepts are still generally there, often times one class is now simply better at doing a certain role than every other class. In addition to that, the trait lines have become very muddled in terms of the role they’re supposed to fit. Some are fine and it’s more of a matter of numbers than functionality. Other lines however are either too broad or too narrow.

One example would be Alchemy on Engi. On the same line you can get access to Protection, passive regen, and also Might. Of course you’re going to see this line see heavy use. Engi as a class has either been a jack of all trades and master of none, or a jack of all trades master of all. Engi is my second most played class but atm I just feel dirty playing it right now because I just bring so much to the table: good damage, team support, CC, and even stealth (and a counter to enemy stealth).

Compare this to Warrior, I actually think that despite its flaws it is still one of the better designed classes. The Strength line is for damage, the Defense line if for…defense, the Tactics line if for (mostly) support, and so on. Warrior is underwhelming mostly due to numbers and the fact that almost every other class has become self sufficient and so individual roles are less prevalent.

TL;DR: We don’t need buffs, we need for almost every class to be scaled back and for each trait line to be more focused so that choices are actually meaningful and that there’s significant tradeoffs.

+1
As it is the thing to do…it will certainly not be followed by anet.
Gw2 has been suffering from power creep wince hot. This is why they buffed thieves and necros.

Uhm it doesn’t really matter that there is offensive and defensive stuff in one traitline since we can pick three traitlines anyway.

I still see what you mean. Arenanet thinks they can balance this game with minimal effort which ultimately holds it back like nothing else. Until they start to take balancing more serious that wont change.

In fact most people agree that their classes are broken but they are scared to openly say so because of possible kneejerk nerfs that render their class useless for months. As a ranger I am glad to be part of the meta wince druid was released. We were not for years. Druid adds just silly amounts of sustain and condi cleanse in a single traitline though. It would make any class competitive…

I don’t think there ever was a design concept, if there was..the waters were fairly muddied from day one.

Rather than look at each individual profession, I personally think anet didn’t zero in enough on the profession tiers.
1) Soldiers/heavy/metal armour
2) scout/medium/leather
3) Scholar/light/cloth.

The heavies should have been built with the idea in mind;
Good movement out of combat. They can be first in. They should be first in. Limited swiftness in combat. Strong pulls. Little condition removal, but use of condition mitigation. High physical damage. Large PbAoE/cleave. Strong access to stability buff and channel blocks. Shut down CC via knock downs, launches and knock backs. Strong support of aggression or defense..but not both in a single build. They become stronger over time. Limited boons. Raw base power. Good use of blast finishers. Limited area fields. Large health pools, but marginal regen. Usable heals.

Mediums/scouts;
Great swiftness both in and out of combat. Shut down CC via interrupts. Good access of evade on use/single use blocks. Only tier that can stealth. Good access to fury and cripple boon/debuffs and critical hits. Good use of medium area ground targeted skills via traps/snares. Limited/marginal cleave. Condition removal, but not mitigation. Less raw power but DoT damage to coincide with critical strikes. Good access to reflection. Poor access to stability, but good evades. Good access to boon removal. Good Projectile finishers. Lower heals, but on quicker cool downs.

Cloth/scholars.
Less access to swiftness over all, but Large access of many boons. The only tier that can teleport. Small access of blocks or evades. Large access to protection/blinds/regens. Shut down CC via dazes. Large access of conditions and condition transfer and removals. High single target DoT/bursts damage on reasonable cool downs, and High AoE damage on various longer casts. Good access to multiple area fields, moderate access to blast finishers. No stability, but multiple stun break selections. Physical damage is poor, but elemental damage types are strong. Moderate heals on medium cool downs with regen/life steal playing a more key role in sustain. Boon corruption/mirroring.

The simple idea of each tier has it strengths, but very real weaknesses. From there each of the individual professions in any tier has their own take of on doing what they do well.

The original guild wars executed this tier concept better. However anet invested heavily in gw2 that any profession can roll any role. If you want an all mesmer team for dungeon, you can do it etc etc. They enforced it with conquest pvp where any profession now needs access to all things to be viable. They then annulled there investment in dungeons but PvP further demanded that each profession needs access to all tools to be playable.

The result..the waters have become too murky now to ever make clear again. So now they invest in god mode professions to only introduce next patch the new predators to replace the old kings of hill. As such no profession has any real role now..it is just what skills/traits they have and which one suits your play style. This is why warriors are slow and obvious poor damage dealers with terrible CC, but squishy ele’s were the better bunkers for ages. This is why thief was the squishy-est profession, yet necromancers are one of the most durable. This why engineers are CC stealth machines, and rangers are near bullet proof. The profession tiers and the profession within each tier have no semblance. There is no accord or standard to each tier. You want a bunker?..probably best to choose the profession with the lowest health that wears cloth. You want the apex damage dealer..then choose medium profession who’s pet does overt damage. You want stacked DoT damage..then pick the heavy that peels out massive burn condition ticks..

Like I said..the waters have been way too muddied.

Fivedawgs.4267:

I main warrior, so I definitely get our tradeoff but I doubt engi are that perfect. I mean they have to sacrifice something to get burst/sustain or whatever.

You really need to go play some meta scrapper. It is better in every conceivable way than Warrior. It’s very sad right now. The only “skillful” thing is being able to get off your healing turret blast but calling that skillful is sort of a joke.

i miss old design as well
risk/reward
distinct roles
distinct strength/weakness
opportunity costs

all got thrown out of the window withing past 2 years or so

my guess is, people who created this game initially either quit their jobs or got fired

Dristig.9678:

Fivedawgs.4267:

I main warrior, so I definitely get our tradeoff but I doubt engi are that perfect. I mean they have to sacrifice something to get burst/sustain or whatever.

You really need to go play some meta scrapper. It is better in every conceivable way than Warrior. It’s very sad right now. The only “skillful” thing is being able to get off your healing turret blast but calling that skillful is sort of a joke.

You would be surprised. Some poster in scrapper thread tried to prove me that scrappers require high skill, good knowledge of game and not what because of water field blast…..

Cynz.9437:

You would be surprised. Some poster in scrapper thread tried to prove me that scrappers require high skill, good knowledge of game and not what because of water field blast…..

Lol, that’d almost be true if every kitten thing they did wasn’t a blast or a leap finisher. Distribution of finishers and fields is really inconsistent across classes. I actually think it’s one of the biggest factors in making classes imbalanced at anything above faceroll level of gameplay.

Crinn.7864:

BurrTheKing.8571:

While the individual concepts are still generally there, often times one class is now simply better at doing a certain role than every other class.

This problem has always existed and will always exist. Nostalgia aside, given multiple different ways to do something, one of those ways will invariably be better than the others.
This is why balancing asynchronous classes is a impossibility.

While true, and something people seem to forget (especially in PvE), the OP’s post has a lot of merit in that the design philosophy has changed from “each class can do the same general thing but in different styles and aesthetics” to “each class does their own thing entirely.”

The specialization framework concept offered a ton of room to really improve, but I feel like implementation was rushed and poorly-executed with what I’d deem as a blatant failure from design and balance of the individual specializations themselves.

+1 totally agree, it seems that this game has evolved around Anet trying to pacify its player base by giving them more and more shiny new skills and traits. In order to reinforce the “cool new stuff” factor they completely overdo the potency which results in a disgusting power creep as we have seen over the past 8-14 months.

Most of us who have PvPed since launch would probably agree with a lot of what Burr wrote in his OP. Since the trait streamlining and HoT, each profession has had very limited build diversity, with the new HoT traitline being the apex choice for all professions. Whether you like the playstyle or not, you are forced to pick it because the vanilla alternatives pale in comparison.

A similar diminishing of options is evident in team comps, where (since HoT) we have had clear apex predators in each role. Why consider anything else for the roamer role when Revenant brings so much more to the table than any other alternative? Pre-nerf bunker Mesmer was similarly superior in the bunker role – you didn’t even have to know how to play Mesmer to be effective as a chrono wellmancer.

Pop quiz for PvP old farts – do you still remember “Purity of Purpose, Holes in Roles, Opportunity Cost and Soft Counters over Hard Counters”? To be fair, those principles kind of faded to the background even when Chap was still running things, but they sure as heck are abandoned now. The current philosophy is all about “Moar = Better”.

Burr and swagger are actually the only people on this entire forum who have a clue about pvp. This thread is actually worth it as compared to the many whine threads that deal with the same subject. These people aren’t concerned about their fav class being nerfed, but they are concerned about the overall quality of pvp. I play everyday with people that think running in and dieing 50+ times is what defines GW pvp.

WHAT does actually define GW pvp? I think many people have forgotten that. PVP matches are so incredibly random, whilst teamplay is made 1000 times easier to execute then in, say, GW1, that I am under the impression that people simply don’t know what to do. I learned pvp by playing unranked soloQ, but unranked soloQ doesn’t define pvp, it defines chaos.

Everytime when I hear someone talk pvp it’s like those people play alone. Sure, they got 4 teammates but might asw ignore them. The random element is holding back this game rather severely, and it’s almost impossible to get that out of the game what’s actually in it. Example: I make builds not to win, but to make up for other people’s fail. Bad perspective is bad.

Defined roles remove the random element. Combos are a nice example, who needs to watch other players when you can make all combos by yourself? The reason why I like core warrior for instance is that their skillbar almost exclusively has combo finishers. For fields you need other players, hence combos give a huge advantage because of TEAMPLAY. When I roll my reaper I can simply press 5 and 4 for utterly devastating chilling bolts that do damage to boot. I continue to play warrior because I like it, but you get the point. Please do separate field and finisher more?

The PvP does feel very random. I think the majority of players (at least that I’ve played with) don’t really like working as a team. No one in-game ever seems to communicate. The only time I’ve seen people communicate, is when the team is about to lose, then you get that one guy that goes and insults his team, calling them “n00bs”. Ironically the people that insult their team, are the ones that tend to run off on their own, pushing far when the enemy team is about to respawn etc.

I haven’t PvP’d in a while, because I just haven’t been having fun for some time in PvP now. I’m wondering if perhaps Conquest has too much of a learning curve for the majority of the players? You always get people multicapping nodes, people fighting off point, not defending nodes etc. Also the amount of times I’ve seen players raging in map chat, insulting the other team because that they got 2v1’d. Do they really think that the enemy team is just going to stand there and watch them have a 1v1?

It would appear to me that a lot of players just want death match, rather than Conquest. So many people just ignore the nodes and want to fight the second they see an enemy player, rather than considering if it would be better to not engage and go help the team fight.

I’ve gone a bit off topic there, but in regards to the classes, I’d love to be able to just play ANY way I want with my class of choice. I know you can already do that, but the meta builds just work the best. It’s disappointing that you already know, for example, that when you encounter a Necro/Reaper, they’re going to be using specific skills, with a specific build.

It would really liven things up if it was a bit more unexpected what build your enemy is running. As of now though, it feels as though every Necro is the same, every Guardian is the same, every Thief is the same etc.

I think the ferocity patch was coincidence, they fixed their game although they had no idea it would. June brought us back to pre ferocity so a lot of the flaws that have been around back then are now visible again. The trait merge on top of that and the Hot elites.
I guess they’re pretty clueless when it comes to balance/how to fix this – so this is the best we’ll get. Until the PvE players cry again that zerker gear needs to be nerfed, but I somehow guess they won’t this time around.

That’s well said, GW playerbase is lazy at times.

Example: I go into a match with 4 tryhards, opposing team has 2 choices:
-Try harder (makes you good)
-Give up

I want to know what build is good for pvp, again, 2 choices:
-Play everything (makes you good)
-Whine in chat till someone gives you a link to metabattle

I want to take out a player
-Make sure you get away with it (makes you good)
-Jump him and hope for the best

It might sometimes be hard to cater to the wishes of both categories of players, I don’t envy arenanet.