Aren’t eles generally more concerned with thieves than warriors? Thief is the only profession that really hard-counters them. Against a warrior, I just chill (the condition, not the relaxation) and dance around them. It’s amazing what walking through someone as thew are coming at you will do. Also, glyph of elemental power + air attunement is your friend against melee. I agree, eles are probably the most difficult class to play, mainly because they rely on much more active damage mitigation. Warriors and Guardians have armor and boons, thieves have stealth and evades, Mesmers have clones, Engis have cc, Necros have DS, and rangers…dont know ‘cuz I don’t play them. Eles have to be just as active defensively as offensively. I generally rely on focus for this, as projectile destruction, projectile reflection, Obsidian Flesh, and Gale are all excellent defensive skills. Once you get good at the more defensive focus, you can probably move on the the more offensive OH dagger.
@OP: You don’t say which part of PvP you are struggling.
Hot join: If you struggle here, it is you
solo queue: bunker eles or gc eles do pretty well. Just don’t plan to run around solo
team queue: find a different class
from your post, its more like a l2p issue then an actually class balance issue.
lol, I don’t know where that came from and how you came to it. He said nothing except saying that Ele’s are in a horrible place in PvP right now (which they are) and about why warriors haven’t been nerfed yet (probably just adding it in because of his frustration of how many benefits Warriors have comparable to Eles)
I agree with him. Let’s hope this patch is a good one.
The problem with Ele is that it’s balanced around peak performance, not average performance, and the difference between how the class performs at low vs high skill levels is really large.
IMO the base performance of the class as a whole needs to be raised and the ceiling brought down if needed.
Put another way, the gradient of the performance to skill curve needs to be flattened towards the skill axis slightly.
The problem with Ele is that it’s balanced around peak performance, not average performance, and the difference between how the class performs at low vs high skill levels is really large.
IMO the base performance of the class as a whole needs to be raised and the ceiling brought down if needed.
Put another way, the gradient of the performance to skill curve needs to be flattened towards the skill axis slightly.
No they just need to make D/D support viable again (a fairly easy, faceroll build), and leave fresh air at the skill level it is now, but prevent them getting insta gibbed by thieves some how…
Aren’t eles generally more concerned with thieves than warriors? Thief is the only profession that really hard-counters them. Against a warrior, I just chill (the condition, not the relaxation) and dance around them. It’s amazing what walking through someone as thew are coming at you will do. Also, glyph of elemental power + air attunement is your friend against melee. I agree, eles are probably the most difficult class to play, mainly because they rely on much more active damage mitigation. Warriors and Guardians have armor and boons, thieves have stealth and evades, Mesmers have clones, Engis have cc, Necros have DS, and rangers…dont know ‘cuz I don’t play them. Eles have to be just as active defensively as offensively. I generally rely on focus for this, as projectile destruction, projectile reflection, Obsidian Flesh, and Gale are all excellent defensive skills. Once you get good at the more defensive focus, you can probably move on the the more offensive OH dagger.
Just have to use the right spec and learn how to counter them. The 10/30/0/0/30 thief specs are very squishy, but the counters are mostly learned by having played a thief.
from your post, its more like a l2p issue then an actually class balance issue.
lol, I don’t know where that came from and how you came to it. He said nothing except saying that Ele’s are in a horrible place in PvP right now (which they are) and about why warriors haven’t been nerfed yet (probably just adding it in because of his frustration of how many benefits Warriors have comparable to Eles)
I agree with him. Let’s hope this patch is a good one.
Because 1st of all,
Ele isnt THAT BAD, like what hes saying, and actually some build works decent, I play a ele and i know.
2nd of all, Ele should be complaining about thieves, not warriors.
tho warriors are “OP” in general , but eles should be more kittened about thieves, because thieves pretty much shut down ele’s viability.
The problem with Ele is that it’s balanced around peak performance, not average performance, and the difference between how the class performs at low vs high skill levels is really large.
IMO the base performance of the class as a whole needs to be raised and the ceiling brought down if needed.
Put another way, the gradient of the performance to skill curve needs to be flattened towards the skill axis slightly.
Actually this is quite true. I’ve seen eles at upper levels who are insanely good. The problem is that the skill curve to get there is probably the highest in the game, and most people who play ele will never get there. Definitely need a way to make the average players better without making the already good players OP.
Aren’t eles generally more concerned with thieves than warriors? Thief is the only profession that really hard-counters them.
Pretty much every profession “hard counters” Ele right now, simply because the Ele is that bad. The Mesmer is just as effective against an Ele as a Thief is. Both can strip the Ele’s boons and then unload a one-shot burst on them in a matter of seconds. The Necro and Engi can unload more conditions than the Ele can cleanse. Etc, etc.
I kill mesmers, necros, and engis all the time, even in 1v1s. The engi vs ele match-up I’d say is like 75-25 in the eles favor in most cases. (fresh air ele)
Signet of spite, a separate class from necro, is definitely a match up ele has trouble with though.
Aren’t eles generally more concerned with thieves than warriors? Thief is the only profession that really hard-counters them.
Pretty much every profession “hard counters” Ele right now, simply because the Ele is that bad. The Mesmer is just as effective against an Ele as a Thief is. Both can strip the Ele’s boons and then unload a one-shot burst on them in a matter of seconds. The Necro and Engi can unload more conditions than the Ele can cleanse. Etc, etc.
I kill mesmers, necros, and engis all the time, even in 1v1s. The engi vs ele match-up I’d say is like 75-25 in the eles favor in most cases. (fresh air ele)
Signet of spite, a separate class from necro, is definitely a match up ele has trouble with though.
Thief is the only real problem.
How does an Engi lose to an Ele? Block your attacks, unload with conditions, knock you around so that you can’t combo properly.
Aren’t eles generally more concerned with thieves than warriors? Thief is the only profession that really hard-counters them.
Pretty much every profession “hard counters” Ele right now, simply because the Ele is that bad. The Mesmer is just as effective against an Ele as a Thief is. Both can strip the Ele’s boons and then unload a one-shot burst on them in a matter of seconds. The Necro and Engi can unload more conditions than the Ele can cleanse. Etc, etc.
I kill mesmers, necros, and engis all the time, even in 1v1s. The engi vs ele match-up I’d say is like 75-25 in the eles favor in most cases. (fresh air ele)
Signet of spite, a separate class from necro, is definitely a match up ele has trouble with though.
Thief is the only real problem.
How does an Engi lose to an Ele? Block your attacks, unload with conditions, knock you around so that you can’t combo properly.
Focus can reflect the eng’s ranged attacks with winds/magnetic wave which can be problematic.
The class is generally at a disadvantage in tpvp and so people give up early on, which is understandable.
If you stick to it though you’ll find it’s a lot more rewarding than any other class and with experience over time you’ll learn a lot and will have a much less stressful time.
Just keep playing the class, try out popular builds and most importantly learn your enemies skills.
I know how to play other professions but it has gotten to the point where I feel like less of a liability in tournaments when playing my Elementalist. It really pays off.
I know how to play other professions but it has gotten to the point where I feel like less of a liability in tournaments when playing my Elementalist. It really pays off.
I guess you don’t run into teams with a lot of thieves or hambows…or any of the other less popular builds that hard-counter ele. Every fight is uphill, and some are of those fights are so uphill that they cannot be scaled at all.
I give up too. Too many thieves, and they don’t even need to try to kill ele. Not at all….This game as devolved into a total crapshow, and its pathetic that devs let it happen for so long.
They don’t feel the pain because they don’t actually play the class. There is no excuse for them to let eles be so useless and thieves/warriors to be so out of control for so long. Slow and steady my rear-end. Glacial and perplexing is how balance goes in this game.
Thief: survives better, supports better (steal gives 6 boons every 20s + shadow refuge), does more damage, and is a million times more mobile. Why even play ele again?
The only viable build is Fresh Air glass ele, which dies horribly to thieves (which are pretty much everywhere right now), hambow warriors, burst guardians (autokill from retaliation) and even from autoattack shortbow rangers.
They die to everything it is meta right now, horribly too I’d say.
Bunker and balanced gets even worse, since they are as squishy as the full glass ele, without having the same damage output.
I know how to play other professions but it has gotten to the point where I feel like less of a liability in tournaments when playing my Elementalist. It really pays off.
I guess you don’t run into teams with a lot of thieves or hambows…or any of the other less popular builds that hard-counter ele. Every fight is uphill, and some are of those fights are so uphill that they cannot be scaled at all.
Actually, hambows aren’t a problem at all when using focus or bunkering staff. Multiple thieves however gives me trouble.
@at phanta, sorrow and just about anybody else that has played ele and knows ‘the problem’ of thieves shutting them down.. Why don’t you contribute to my posts about it?
Got eaten alive by those WvW players when I tried to make a thread about counter play..
(PS I disagree with the statement that guard is a broken matchup on ele. I find a top 50 ele a tougher matchup to a top 50 Mesmer/thief on my dps guard, which admittedly has only just started running a retal heavy 15+ virtues build)
I still beat them, but evisc warrior is an easier matchup by far (as phanta is well aware :p).
Interestingly s/x glass ele has been countered by evisc warrior since launch. It’s a tough matchup for ele which is pretty much a natural counter if we’re talking combat zones and how the professions deal with them.
Actually, hambows aren’t a problem at all when using focus or bunkering staff. Multiple thieves however gives me trouble.
Sadly, I have the most success playing staff bunker as well, but I don’t really find it all that fun, and you are STILL better off playing another class, and thats even utilizing every trick you have to use your opponents skills against them. Its just sad that there are a few problem specs out there that force everyone to go heavy bunker/tank, because the optimum builds for those rolls can’t be touched.
I am certainly not the best thief out there, not even close, but good eles are my bane. That damage, wow. I get three shotted, sometimes 2 shotted in tournaments. I know it’s a mechanic you gotta dodge and all, but wow, that damage can be insane.
Actually, hambows aren’t a problem at all when using focus or bunkering staff. Multiple thieves however gives me trouble.
Sadly, I have the most success playing staff bunker as well, but I don’t really find it all that fun, and you are STILL better off playing another class, and thats even utilizing every trick you have to use your opponents skills against them. Its just sad that there are a few problem specs out there that force everyone to go heavy bunker/tank, because the optimum builds for those rolls can’t be touched.
Ever bunkered against two pistol whip thieves? It’s so horrible.
Actually, hambows aren’t a problem at all when using focus or bunkering staff. Multiple thieves however gives me trouble.
Sadly, I have the most success playing staff bunker as well, but I don’t really find it all that fun, and you are STILL better off playing another class, and thats even utilizing every trick you have to use your opponents skills against them. Its just sad that there are a few problem specs out there that force everyone to go heavy bunker/tank, because the optimum builds for those rolls can’t be touched.
Ever bunkered against two pistol whip thieves? It’s so horrible.
Fighting against any thieves on any ele is pretty horrible. Really need team support quick if two thieves show up. I can only have 3 dodges (with energy sigil) + burning retreat + arcane shield, and mistform loses cap progress (but is better than being dead). Some of the cc would be helpful if they didn’t have a million instant-ports to just ignore it.
Actually this is quite true. I’ve seen eles at upper levels who are insanely good.
How am I bored of this kitten. People are saying this after they get killed by perfecly landed fresh air combo after failing to kill ele for few seconds (mostly because of arcane shield). Well, I wont deny that it looks skilled (quite fast in execution compared to other classes), it may even take some skill (or time) to imprint that combo so you can do it fast and good, but what does it have aside from it? Nothing at all. It is just a one-trick nuclear pony that even works only because on untelegraphed nature of air and arcana.
Remember my words – if ele get more passive defence and thus more space for mistake (and, maybe, shorter cd’s) fresh air will be even dumber than current hambow.
This abomination have nothing to do with real ele issues, balancing class around it is like balancing engi around decap spec.
Actually this is quite true. I’ve seen eles at upper levels who are insanely good.
How am I bored of this kitten. People are saying this after they get killed by perfecly landed fresh air combo after failing to kill ele for few seconds (mostly because of arcane shield). Well, I wont deny that it looks skilled (quite fast in execution compared to other classes), it may even take some skill (or time) to imprint that combo so you can do it fast and good, but what does it have aside from it? Nothing at all. It is just a one-trick nuclear pony that even works only because on untelegraphed nature of air and arcana.
Remember my words – if ele get more passive defence and thus more space for mistake (and, maybe, shorter cd’s) fresh air will be even dumber than current hambow.
This abomination have nothing to do with real ele issues, balancing class around it is like balancing engi around decap spec.
Ele just wants counter play vs thieves. And no it won’t, as apart from the vastly greater level of skill required rotationally compared to hambow, and the fact it has 0 sustain, s/x is a build that requires positional awareness.
That’s one thing this game has lost, with dopy warriors constantly pushing without punishment from ranged classes that would just get 2 shotted by a thief.
Because I am kind, and have been working on my champ magus title of late, I will share with u 3 builds that I use and have success, the key is to mainly play it like a short-bow thief
Aren’t eles generally more concerned with thieves than warriors? Thief is the only profession that really hard-counters them.
Pretty much every profession “hard counters” Ele right now, simply because the Ele is that bad. The Mesmer is just as effective against an Ele as a Thief is. Both can strip the Ele’s boons and then unload a one-shot burst on them in a matter of seconds. The Necro and Engi can unload more conditions than the Ele can cleanse. Etc, etc.
I kill mesmers, necros, and engis all the time, even in 1v1s. The engi vs ele match-up I’d say is like 75-25 in the eles favor in most cases. (fresh air ele)
Signet of spite, a separate class from necro, is definitely a match up ele has trouble with though.
Thief is the only real problem.
How does an Engi lose to an Ele? Block your attacks, unload with conditions, knock you around so that you can’t combo properly.
I don’t even usually need to do combos. Just sit back and do air attacks. Kite when I need to. Because they are the aggressors(they have to be aggressive to win) it makes it pretty easy to hit phoenix.
WvW is a different story when the engi uses a #3 pistol and applies 6 condis immediately and your health melts within seconds.
Actually this is quite true. I’ve seen eles at upper levels who are insanely good.
How am I bored of this kitten. People are saying this after they get killed by perfecly landed fresh air combo after failing to kill ele for few seconds (mostly because of arcane shield). Well, I wont deny that it looks skilled (quite fast in execution compared to other classes), it may even take some skill (or time) to imprint that combo so you can do it fast and good, but what does it have aside from it? Nothing at all. It is just a one-trick nuclear pony that even works only because on untelegraphed nature of air and arcana.
Remember my words – if ele get more passive defence and thus more space for mistake (and, maybe, shorter cd’s) fresh air will be even dumber than current hambow.
This abomination have nothing to do with real ele issues, balancing class around it is like balancing engi around decap spec.
This is an insult to anyone who is is a good ele. You didn’t quote all of my message either. Stop using this thread to justify your own lack of skill. It is not a good idea to ask for a return to when the ele was completely OP.
What people want is a way to make the profession easier to play. That would make it more comparable to other classes. Right now, it is not comparable for the average player in PvP. It is fine in WvW and PvE.
What people want is a way to make the profession easier to play. That would make it more comparable to other classes. Right now, it is not comparable for the average player in PvP. It is fine in WvW and PvE.
I don’t want ele to be easier to play, necessarily. I want it to be acceptable to play because its not hard-countered by something as common/easy as thieves, who play a similar role, and do it a bazillion times better (as much damage, more mobility, equal team support with 6 boons from steal and shadow refuge resses, a billion times more survivability).
There are a lot counter classes to other classes. It’s not as if ele is harder countered by a thief than say eng is by a necro (which is about as common to see as a thief).
I would prefer softer counters Vs. harder ones… but that would take a lot of rebalancing across the board and not just with eles.
in tournament games a glass staff ele can be the difference betweena win or a loss,
if played right you can dish out a colossal amount of damage on a large area.
also i hear support bunker eles at the higher skill levels are pretty darn incredible in team fights (though i don’t play bunker ele)
and scepter ele can put out ridiculously insane burst with the right combos.
ele is a very high risk, very high reward class, the problem is that other classes can get the same reward with very little effort or risk.
Fresh Air + Arcane Blast + Arcane Wave. I absolutely LOVE facing Ele’s like that because 1 dodge/block = their entire burst sequence misses, and then I can proceed to auto-attack them to death because they have zero defenses (and I literally mean zero, arcane slot skills lol).
in tournament games a glass staff ele can be the difference betweena win or a loss, if played right you can dish out a colossal amount of damage on a large area.
Assuming the enemy team is full of blind sheep who don’t even notice that a staff Ele is about to nuke them all. All it takes is 1 person to focus the glass staff ele…that’s it, the Ele is done for the rest of the round. Especially if it’s an enemy thief or mesmer, at which point the staff zerker ele might as well quit the match to stop giving the enemy free points.
and scepter ele can put out ridiculously insane burst with the right combos.
1 trick pony, after which they spend the next 40-45 seconds either being downed or waiting for respawn. That’s usually how it goes in tournaments, look it up.
ele is a very high risk, very high reward class, the problem is that other classes can get the same reward with very little effort or risk.
Umm so why on earth would you say Ele is a “very high risk, very high reward” class? In what context, compared to what? If others can get the exact same reward, why would you even use the words “very high”?
English/logic fail or am I missing something here…
ele is a very high risk, very high reward class, the problem is that other classes can get the same reward with very little effort or risk.
Umm so why on earth would you say Ele is a “very high risk, very high reward” class? In what context, compared to what? If others can get the exact same reward, why would you even use the words “very high”?
English/logic fail or am I missing something here…
i run my ele full glass, and if you play it right you can get your aoes on the point before the enemy know where you are, within seconds they are all either downed or off the point, but like you said, other times you can get focused and you’re extremely squishy.
i’ve played both as, and against glass eles and if we can get our aoes on point,
things melt.
high risk, high reward.
like i said before, ele isn’t the problem, the problem is that a class like warrior have low risk/high reward which just totally screws over any class that is high risk/high reward.
ele should be the template that Anet use for balancing classes like warrior.
