Guild Wars 2

speaking of Panic Strike and Chill of Death

Panic Strike is just… you get below 50% HP and don’t have a instant cond cleanse? Well.. you are death. Ask some mesmer players about this trait if you want.

Now Chill of Death: I don’t mind the chill, it is powerful but does not lock you in place like immob, the problem about this is the damage. It is always combined with the close to death trait (+20% dmg against <50% HP enemys) so it hit’s like a truck. Bonus points if procced from down state.

Both of them are not avoidable and should be reworked, since it can proc on everything. Some ideas:

Panic strike: Does 1s of fear instead of 2,5s immob. Fear duration does not increase with condition duration.
Explanation: Fit’s way better with the idea of “panic” than the immobilize. Also gives some additional counterplay with stunbreaks.

Chill of death: inflicts 1s of chill on low health enemys and removes 1 boon. No longer deals dmg. 5s icd
Would be still powerful but removes the crazy dmg spikes.

1s of chill and 1 boon removed sounds powerful indeed.

The fear fits so much better.

Waffler.1257:

1s of chill and 1 boon removed sounds powerful indeed.

UBcktieDL.5318:

I don’t mind the chill, it is powerful but does not lock you in place like immob, the problem about this is the damage. It is always combined with the close to death trait (+20% dmg against <50% HP enemys) so it hit’s like a truck. Bonus points if procced from down state.

Helps if you read the post before commenting.

When you take a power necro down with 52% health left, and just as they drop (invulnerable while transitioning into downed state) the locust swarm on them, in downed state, crits you for 300...

...triggering fire sigil, air sigil, chill of death, with +50% damage while in downed state.

Chill of Death — This attack cannot crit

pls

ens.9854:

Chill of Death — This attack cannot crit

pls

No!! Unless you transfer the damage somewhere else cough cough axe AA.

Its always so funny seeing people get upset about passive procmancers doing their thing when you don’t acknowledge that the necromancer has been pushed out of the meta as a whole by the cele meta, and even terrormancer can’t compete anymore because the condi clease of shoutbow/guard/ele/engi comps is just too much to warrant using necromancer for conditions anymore.

no1 likes these procs.

I like the change to panic strike though. Tons of Stunbreakers don’t really deal too well with immob, so if a stealth-spike hits you and you get dazed/stuned and immobilized, some classes have a very hard time dealing with it.

But the worst thing about these procs is that you cannot avoid them, because they only trigger when they hit. They should just give you a buff that your next atk has the added effect of panic strike/chill of death (be it immob or fear or whatever), and you loose the buff with your next atk – doesn’t matter if it hits or not.

This could and should also be applied to stuff like Sigil of Doom, Life-Leech and all those other unavoidable procs. I don’t mind if you make stretch the effect out over a few attacks, so you cannot simply dodge all of it so easily, as long as it’s at least possible to dodge it.

PowerBottom.5796:

no1 likes these procs.

I like the change to panic strike though. Tons of Stunbreakers don’t really deal too well with immob, so if a stealth-spike hits you and you get dazed/stuned and immobilized, some classes have a very hard time dealing with it.

But the worst thing about these procs is that you cannot avoid them, because they only trigger when they hit. They should just give you a buff that your next atk has the added effect of panic strike/chill of death (be it immob or fear or whatever), and you loose the buff with your next atk – doesn’t matter if it hits or not.

This could and should also be applied to stuff like Sigil of Doom, Life-Leech and all those other unavoidable procs. I don’t mind if you make stretch the effect out over a few attacks, so you cannot simply dodge all of it so easily, as long as it’s at least possible to dodge it.

You have to consider that not every proc can be changed like this, or evasion builds (s/d thief or d/d ele with energy runes) will rule. Instant proc mechanics provide some counterplay to these builds, but every proc should be counterable with utility skills. For example, mesmer has very few ways to deal with immob, if he gets struck by panic strike it is pretty much game over. Same with non-bow warrior. As said, the problem with Chill of death is not the chill effect but the instant 3-6k dmg. There is a reason why the original skill has 1,25s cast time.

nearlight.3064:

Its always so funny seeing people get upset about passive procmancers doing their thing when you don’t acknowledge that the necromancer has been pushed out of the meta as a whole by the cele meta, and even terrormancer can’t compete anymore because the condi clease of shoutbow/guard/ele/engi comps is just too much to warrant using necromancer for conditions anymore.

Yea, this is the fault of power-creep, and it might just swing the other way with the trait revamp. For quite a while, the game had SKILLFULL application of conditions, where you had to build up your bleed stacks, then cover them to protect from cleanse. Likewise, cleanse wasn’t quite as prevalent. Then, they decided to start putting conditions on almost everything, with huge procs from runes, traits, sigils, etc. (such as dhuumfire) which allowed condition builds to just burst out a million conditions with one hit…leading to the condi meta. Rather than reel that back in, they decided to give a bunch of really strong condition cleanse options to classes such as warrior and eles so that they could keep up with the condition-spam created previously. This is where we are now, where cleanse slightly out-paces application, making condi builds worthless.

With the upcoming trait change, conditions might be able to be applied in very large bursts and far outstrip the cleanse capabilities (or maybe not). But regardless, the state of that side of the game is the results of an arms race that has actually made the interplay between condis and cleanse very boring and skill-less – you either can crap out more conditions than cleanse or you just cleanse everything and conditions don’t matter.

BlackBeard.2873:

nearlight.3064:

Its always so funny seeing people get upset about passive procmancers doing their thing when you don’t acknowledge that the necromancer has been pushed out of the meta as a whole by the cele meta, and even terrormancer can’t compete anymore because the condi clease of shoutbow/guard/ele/engi comps is just too much to warrant using necromancer for conditions anymore.

Yea, this is the fault of power-creep, and it might just swing the other way with the trait revamp. For quite a while, the game had SKILLFULL application of conditions, where you had to build up your bleed stacks, then cover them to protect from cleanse. Likewise, cleanse wasn’t quite as prevalent. Then, they decided to start putting conditions on almost everything, with huge procs from runes, traits, sigils, etc. (such as dhuumfire) which allowed condition builds to just burst out a million conditions with one hit…leading to the condi meta. Rather than reel that back in, they decided to give a bunch of really strong condition cleanse options to classes such as warrior and eles so that they could keep up with the condition-spam created previously. This is where we are now, where cleanse slightly out-paces application, making condi builds worthless.

With the upcoming trait change, conditions might be able to be applied in very large bursts and far outstrip the cleanse capabilities (or maybe not). But regardless, the state of that side of the game is the results of an arms race that has actually made the interplay between condis and cleanse very boring and skill-less.

Just a few problems here:

1. Dhuumfire was literally the only “condition on X” added to the game since launch that is available in PvP until Mesmers got their Torment on scepter auto and shatters. Thus, the application rate of conditions has not nearly gone up at anything close to the rate you are insinuating.

2. The “Condition meta” never existed. At most, we saw two condition builds on a team, more often only one, and frequently, none at all. That was when Dhuumfire was at its strongest!

3. Upcoming trait changes don’t really impact the situation of conditions, other than possibly making it even harder to stack. Engineer and Necromancer are known to be getting some additional reworks.

ens.9854:

Chill of Death — This attack cannot crit

pls

Yeah, I think this would be a solution to this. It would also solve the issue with CoD + air + fire. They would have to buff the damage a bit, though. If it hit around 2K, that would be fine. Hitting 5K+ on a single proc is a bit too much.

Well regardless of what they do to chill of death, I’d be fine so long as necro was compensated in other ways, such as by fulfilling that sustain/attrition role we’ve wanted to actually fulfill for so long.

They are moving away from traits casting different versions of spells and chill of death casts spins shivers. The only way to change the trait would be to change it to something totally new that doesn’t cast spinal shivers since the trait just references the skill and casts it if the conditions are met.

If you changed it to chilling a target removes a boon and causes damage if a boon is removed. Damage coeff of 0.5. I believe this would stop people moaning about it being free since they have to chill you to do something. Also has synergy with a lot of existing traits and skills.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Just a few problems here:

1. Dhuumfire was literally the only “condition on X” added to the game since launch that is available in PvP until Mesmers got their Torment on scepter auto and shatters. Thus, the application rate of conditions has not nearly gone up at anything close to the rate you are insinuating.

Sigils and runes, just like with air/fire, have increased the application rate of conditions to some crazy levels. Geomancy, balth runes, krait runes, nightmare runes, etc. have all been added which increase condition application rate to some silly levels. On many builds you can apply 5-6 condis with one hit, and for a while after the 4/15 patch (before everyone was running shoutbows), terrormancer had a very strong condition burst/ fear chain that made them one of the best 1v1-builds in-game. A lot of these conditions all proc on-hit, on-swap, and on-crit too, not from deliberate use of certain skills.

2. The “Condition meta” never existed. At most, we saw two condition builds on a team, more often only one, and frequently, none at all. That was when Dhuumfire was at its strongest!

I disagree with you here. There was a pretty long portion when everyone was running tanky condi builds before people swapped over to tanky super-cleanse builds. The scales really tipped when they introduced berserker’s stance and cleansing ire, which created hambow (that countered condi builds) and lead us into the hambow and tanky metas.

3. Upcoming trait changes don’t really impact the situation of conditions, other than possibly making it even harder to stack. Engineer and Necromancer are known to be getting some additional reworks.

There are a lot of traits being added that give a large amount of condis on instant procs, on-hit, etc. being added. Combined with decoupling stats from trait-lines and re-aligning trait-lines so that you can make more sensible (and consistent) condi choices, might help make condi builds stronger. Finally, letting burning stack and increasing the bleed cap above 25 (which can impact a few niche builds) might impact the landscape of condi-builds. However, access to very strong sustain lines might keep the arms-race in favor of high-cleanse builds that can keep all condis off everything. I’m not sure which way it will go, but I can assure it won’t be balanced on way or the other (condi builds will either be OP or useless).

BlackBeard.2873:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Just a few problems here:

1. Dhuumfire was literally the only “condition on X” added to the game since launch that is available in PvP until Mesmers got their Torment on scepter auto and shatters. Thus, the application rate of conditions has not nearly gone up at anything close to the rate you are insinuating.

Sigils and runes, just like with air/fire, have increased the application rate of conditions to some crazy levels. Geomancy, balth runes, krait runes, nightmare runes, etc. have all been added which increase condition application rate to some silly levels. On many builds you can apply 5-6 condis with one hit, and for a while after the 4/15 patch (before everyone was running shoutbows), terrormancer had a very strong condition burst/ fear chain that made them one of the best 1v1-builds in-game. A lot of these conditions all proc on-hit, on-swap, and on-crit too, not from deliberate use of certain skills.

You mean those runes and sigils which have been available since launch? The only thing that has meaningfully changed since then that you listed was Krait runes, going from a useless 6 piece (+100 Power underwater) to inflicting conditions on elite use.

2. The “Condition meta” never existed. At most, we saw two condition builds on a team, more often only one, and frequently, none at all. That was when Dhuumfire was at its strongest!

I disagree with you here. There was a pretty long portion when everyone was running tanky condi builds before people swapped over to tanky super-cleanse builds. The scales really tipped when they introduced berserker’s stance and cleansing ire, which created hambow (that countered condi builds) and lead us into the hambow and tanky metas.

The “tanky condi builds” made up 2 or fewer of 5 slots on a team, even at their most popular point. Inclusion in a competitive scene does not make it a meta. Condi builds were included for a while, but they never defined the meta.

3. Upcoming trait changes don’t really impact the situation of conditions, other than possibly making it even harder to stack. Engineer and Necromancer are known to be getting some additional reworks.

There are a lot of traits being added that give a large amount of condis on instant procs, on-hit, etc. being added. Combined with decoupling stats from trait-lines and re-aligning trait-lines so that you can make more sensible (and consistent) condi choices, might help make condi builds stronger. Finally, letting burning stack and increasing the bleed cap above 25 (which can impact a few niche builds) might impact the landscape of condi-builds. However, access to very strong sustain lines might keep the arms-race in favor of high-cleanse builds that can keep all condis off everything. I’m not sure which way it will go, but I can assure it won’t be balanced on way or the other (condi builds will either be OP or useless).

Care to list the ones that are coming that aren’t already here? Outside of the reworks coming for Engineer and Necro traits/skills (where we don’t know what they will bring), I really am not seeing it.

The “tanky condi builds” made up 2 or fewer of 5 slots on a team, even at their most popular point. Inclusion in a competitive scene does not make it a meta. Condi builds were included for a while, but they never defined the meta.

I can clearly remember a long lasting meta called “spirit ranger meta”, and another called “Dhuumfire meta”. I guess I dreamt it.

Care to list the ones that are coming that aren’t already here? Outside of the reworks coming for Engineer and Necro traits/skills (where we don’t know what they will bring), I really am not seeing it.

I think in the mesmer trait rework, there are some new condi-related traits. The Illusions line was especially reworked to be condition heavy, with one trait giving (I think) torment procs on confusion application. I’m not sure though, I only play power.

The Reaper also has a lot of condition-based traits (chill mainly). Did I answer your question?

BlackBeard.2873:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Just a few problems here:

1. Dhuumfire was literally the only “condition on X” added to the game since launch that is available in PvP until Mesmers got their Torment on scepter auto and shatters. Thus, the application rate of conditions has not nearly gone up at anything close to the rate you are insinuating.

Sigils and runes, just like with air/fire, have increased the application rate of conditions to some crazy levels. Geomancy, balth runes, krait runes, nightmare runes, etc. have all been added which increase condition application rate to some silly levels. On many builds you can apply 5-6 condis with one hit, and for a while after the 4/15 patch (before everyone was running shoutbows), terrormancer had a very strong condition burst/ fear chain that made them one of the best 1v1-builds in-game. A lot of these conditions all proc on-hit, on-swap, and on-crit too, not from deliberate use of certain skills.

Terrormancer was okay 1v1 because of builds we were facing most of the time.

Celestial Elementalists, Celestial Engineers, mostly S/D Thieves.

It wasn’t because profession itself was so brilliant and super strong in 1v1. It was because Necromancer was good against Celestial builds at that time.

Sorel.4870:

The “tanky condi builds” made up 2 or fewer of 5 slots on a team, even at their most popular point. Inclusion in a competitive scene does not make it a meta. Condi builds were included for a while, but they never defined the meta.

I can clearly remember a long lasting meta called “spirit ranger meta”, and another called “Dhuumfire meta”. I guess I dreamt it.

Care to list the ones that are coming that aren’t already here? Outside of the reworks coming for Engineer and Necro traits/skills (where we don’t know what they will bring), I really am not seeing it.

I think in the mesmer trait rework, there are some new condi-related traits. The Illusions line was especially reworked to be condition heavy, with one trait giving (I think) torment procs on confusion application. I’m not sure though, I only play power.

The Reaper also has a lot of condition-based traits (chill mainly). Did I answer your question?

The torment trait you’re talking about for mesmer is called the sum of all fears, and seems to indicate that you inflict an unknown of torment whenever you inflict 5 or more stacks of confusion. Most condi mesmers won’t even take that trait however because it shares a slot with malicious sorcery which will be giving torment a 50% damage buff on moving foes. Other buffs to condition mesmers include easier condi cleanse from traited torch and Ipersona and Ielast being baseline, but I know that it won’t be enough to make condition mesmer in the meta, even if the condi cleanse meta goes away, simply because condition mesmer has poor sustain, poor team fight ability compared to other condition builds on other classes, and everything that they can do, burst mesmers will be able to do faster while being more useful in teamfights. So yeah MtD builds will be better, but they’re ineffective outside of 1v1s and unless the clease meta goes, they won’t stand a chance either.

I hope that clarified your discussion of new condition traits and imporvements, because Anet is trying, but it won’t be enough unless they manage the sustain based specs in a way to allow conditions and sustain based classes to coexist in a balanced way.

nearlight.3064:

I hope that clarified your discussion of new condition traits and imporvements, because Anet is trying, but it won’t be enough unless they manage the sustain based specs in a way to allow conditions and sustain based classes to coexist in a balanced way.

You did, thank you! I wasn’t really discussing the viability of condi mesmer (I’m not much of a condi person anyway). Someone asked if new condition proc traits were added, and I thought about this one.

On condi mesmer, I think MtD will see it’s use, especially in WvW and Stronghold. In conquest however, I think a shatter-lockdown mix will be preferred. It is too early to tell.

Sorel.4870:

The “tanky condi builds” made up 2 or fewer of 5 slots on a team, even at their most popular point. Inclusion in a competitive scene does not make it a meta. Condi builds were included for a while, but they never defined the meta.

I can clearly remember a long lasting meta called “spirit ranger meta”, and another called “Dhuumfire meta”. I guess I dreamt it.

Those were metas for the profession, but not for PvP as a whole. Meta builds for Necromancers have, until recently, been condition builds, but Necromancers are not meta (and in fact, never have been outside of the short time after Dhuumfire’s initial release).

Hope that helps clarify. Again, the so called “condition meta” never existed.

UBcktieDL.5318:

speaking of Panic Strike and Chill of Death

Panic Strike is just… you get below 50% HP and don’t have a instant cond cleanse? Well.. you are death. Ask some mesmer players about this trait if you want.

Now Chill of Death: I don’t mind the chill, it is powerful but does not lock you in place like immob, the problem about this is the damage. It is always combined with the close to death trait (+20% dmg against <50% HP enemys) so it hit’s like a truck. Bonus points if procced from down state.

Both of them are not avoidable and should be reworked, since it can proc on everything. Some ideas:

Panic strike: Does 1s of fear instead of 2,5s immob. Fear duration does not increase with condition duration.
Explanation: Fit’s way better with the idea of “panic” than the immobilize. Also gives some additional counterplay with stunbreaks.

Chill of death: inflicts 1s of chill on low health enemys and removes 1 boon. No longer deals dmg. 5s icd
Would be still powerful but removes the crazy dmg spikes.

Lol, you lost to a power necro.

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Waffler.1257:

1s of chill and 1 boon removed sounds powerful indeed.

UBcktieDL.5318:

I don’t mind the chill, it is powerful but does not lock you in place like immob, the problem about this is the damage. It is always combined with the close to death trait (+20% dmg against <50% HP enemys) so it hit’s like a truck. Bonus points if procced from down state.

Helps if you read the post before commenting.

I’m pretty sure he did, you just took your own context from it.

UBcktieDL.5318:

Chill of death: inflicts 1s of chill on low health enemys and removes 1 boon. No longer deals dmg. 5s icd
Would be still powerful but removes the crazy dmg spikes.

Random Weird Guy.3528:

1s of chill and 1 boon removed sounds powerful indeed.

If you read further than a few lines before commenting you would have seen those quotes I put up.

Powermancers have little sustain, limited stun breakers and at best, a bigger threat downed than otherwise. That doesn’t seem like a viable, long term build. And in matches with more advanced players, it usually gets focused like there’s no tomorrow.

The build is kept barely alive through CoD, CtD and sigils. Without these, it’s absolutely worthless.

UBcktieDL.5318:

Panic strike: Does 1s of fear instead of 2,5s immob. Fear duration does not increase with condition duration.

1.5 seconds of delicious, skillbar disabling edge-farming goodness and you have a deal.