Guild Wars 2

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yolo swaggins.2570:

Actually the warrior community just over exaggerates their plight.

They over exaggerate, but the Thief community is a bunch of straight-shooters. Is that your point? I hope it’s your point. I like to make sure I have my facts straight before I start cackling like a crazy old witch.

yolo swaggins.2570:

If anyone wonders why there is a lack of warriors, its most likely because it’s gameplay is boring.

This made my day
Please continue …

Cogbyrn.7283:

yolo swaggins.2570:

Actually the warrior community just over exaggerates their plight.

They over exaggerate, but the Thief community is a bunch of straight-shooters. Is that your point? I hope it’s your point. I like to make sure I have my facts straight before I start cackling like a crazy old witch.

I also like to get my facts straight before I start choking on my laughter. I won’t lie that the thief community is just as bad, but unlike the warrior profession thief has never been an Anet golden child. Instead they got nerfed back to back for over a year and a half. And the nerfs didn’t stop until the community dropped the profession en mass. Compare now from a year ago, not only have the QQ thief threads died down to less than once a month but a majority of the GW2 acknowledges thief being kitten. From OP to pet, where its going to stay thanks to the wonderful screaming community.

Any ire or vitriol that the thief community puts out is the very same crap the rest of the community dumped into the profession years ago. They almost have a right to complain.

knight.8926:

compared to warriors thieves should be in heaven still

Warriors have been week for maybe a month or so.

Thief has been weak so long I can’t remember the last time they were even at an average level of strength.

yolo swaggins.2570:

They almost have a right to complain.

At least you’re right about one thing: they still don’t have a right to complain.

I don’t care what the purported “ANet Community” claims about Thieves. People in video games hide behind the claims of the many to hide their inadequacies all the time, especially in MMOs. You see someone else talk about how Class X is OP, and you get killed by Class X, you jump in and say “Yeah! Class X is OP!” Now, they don’t have to worry about thinking that maybe they just aren’t playing well. It’s clearly the class’s fault, and the developer needs to fix it.

Similarly, if someone claims a class is weak, then someone else might feel comfortable stating they think it is weak. Then another, then another, then suddenly a posse roams around making claims of weakness. Most probably couldn’t form a reasonable argument as to why without citing some example of what another class is capable of, which tells me they don’t really know anything about their own class. It’s either that, or vague exaggerations like “die instantly”, “incidental aoe damage is too much”, “don’t do enough damage”.

Thieves have been a victim of this. Warriors have been a victim of this. Guardians have been a victim of this. Mesmers have been a victim of this. The list goes on.

It isn’t that none of the things in the past that have been changed haven’t been warranted. But pity parties are for junior high/high school break-ups. I can’t afford to eat a bucket of ice cream, otherwise I’ll probably get fat.

So in short, I don’t feel sorry for Thieves.

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

knight.8926:

compared to warriors thieves should be in heaven still

Warriors have been week for maybe a month or so.

Thief has been weak so long I can’t remember the last time they were even at an average level of strength.

Before 14 September 2012 – the date of the first thief nerf – then the hell has began with continuos nerfs and some fixes that actually were nerfs for thief.
Whilw fixes to thing like withdraw healing that could actually give a little hand to thieves never happen.

@ Cogbyrn

If someone knows their profession, then they should be focusing on what they know the best, not what they think they know. People like knight and Niloy, should be explaining why their profession sucks instead of comparing it to something they know nothing about. Or better yet, arguing with someone who knows WAY more than they do on a subject they have minimal experience with. The most both of them can do in regards to topics such as thief is use wiki, math and statistics to come to conclusions. Like what I did with warrior.

kittenantry does nothing but waste time.

Some of you need to pause, take a few steps back from the monitor, and wait for a few hours. Then come back and read through this thread in an objective manner.

- State of thief is not the best, but it is not worse than state of warrior.

- Anet doesn’t “hate thief”. Neither has warrior been their " golden child". But fine, keep saying it If it makes you feel better.

-Some people are saying that whilst warrior has been weak just for a few weeks, thief has been weak/below average for months/years/a long time. How can this be true, when thief has been 95% mandatory Pre HoT, Pre June patch, all throughout 2015 and longer than that as well?

You can keep shouting Opinions and even lies, just know that Anet will get no help balancing thief, warrior or any other profession from this thread.

Edit:
If you are talking about things other than meta builds, such as build diversity (which i don’t think you are), then clarify in your posts please, thanks.

Quadox.7834:

How can this be true, when thief has been 95% mandatory Pre HoT, Pre June patch, all throughout 2015 and longer than that as well?

And here is where I lose my patience.

The meta is: have a thief for decap/backcapping and being a pet.

- Being someone’s pet, as in the inability to effectively 1v1 or more, is not a role.
- Doing nothing but backcapping and decapping is absolutely not a valid measure of the profession’s overall effectiveness. It is only a measure of effectiveness on mobility.

Stop using that excuse. It means nothing.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Quadox.7834:

How can this be true, when thief has been 95% mandatory Pre HoT, Pre June patch, all throughout 2015 and longer than that as well?

And here is where I lose my patience.

The meta is: have a thief for decap/backcapping and being a pet.

- Being someone’s pet, as in the inability to effectively 1v1 or more, is not a role.
- Doing nothing but backcapping and decapping is absolutely not a valid measure of the profession’s overall effectiveness. It is only a measure of effectiveness on mobility.

Stop using that excuse. It means nothing.

That is why i did indeed state that, If your concern is something else than the meta builds, please CLARIFY in your post. Buffs to alternative playstyles is important to separate from the meta playstyle. The game is ’balanced" around a 5v5 conquest meta. Decaps, stealth for resses and bursts, and chasing down people are all roles the thief has been used for.

Ability to effectively 1v1 is not even close to a prerequisite for being a good class to bring to conquest pvp. Chronomancer is the worst 1v1 meta class on shatter, but can still be very useful. They (thief and mesmer) have been used for +1s, not even fights (which bruisers often excel at.

Of course “measure of effectiveness on mobility” accounts to the overall effectiveness of the class. In fact, it is sa huge part of pvp and one that thief is meant to excel at. There is no excuse. What would i make an excuse for? I support thief buffs/nerfs to other classes. What i don’t support is people spewing lies that don’t contribute in any meaningful way.

Holy crap the lack of grammar and 5th grade spelling in this thread is appalling.

Disclaimer: I have every class. I am not the best thief. I am not the best ANYTHING. I am maybe slightly above average and rely more on personal theory-crafting that I do with my spec’s than my individual skill.

-Thieves still have a use. Backcapping and simply playing sneaky and smart. Warriors on the other hand get utterly demolished in basically all roles.

-The only way I have found it capable using a warrior right now is basically a Pure power GS and axe/shield with endure pain and balanced stance for stomping….if I even get that far. I can blow up one person with ALL of my cd’s popped and MAYBE get a kill(with stomp included) before I get almost globaled by a reaper/Trapper DH who decide to run by.

Meanwhile when I play as a reaper/herald/Trap DH…I can basically take on 3 people at the same time and survive in time for backup, or KILL 2 people at the same time.

-Berserker….Yeah….No thanks.

The ONLY thing warrior has going for it, is that it is quite simply easier to play than a thief at the same level, thief has a MUCH higher skill cap than a warrior. You arent going to seal club people if a thief is not in a good place…YOU HAVE TO BE THE BETTER PLAYER IF YOU ARE NOT A META/UNBALACED CLASS. Skill up, stop complaining….It could be worse.

Quadox.7834:

yolo swaggins.2570:

Quadox.7834:

How can this be true, when thief has been 95% mandatory Pre HoT, Pre June patch, all throughout 2015 and longer than that as well?

And here is where I lose my patience.

The meta is: have a thief for decap/backcapping and being a pet.

- Being someone’s pet, as in the inability to effectively 1v1 or more, is not a role.
- Doing nothing but backcapping and decapping is absolutely not a valid measure of the profession’s overall effectiveness. It is only a measure of effectiveness on mobility.

Stop using that excuse. It means nothing.

That is why i did indeed state that, If your concern is something else than the meta builds, please CLARIFY in your post. Buffs to alternative playstyles is important to separate from the meta playstyle. The game is ’balanced" around a 5v5 conquest meta. Decaps, stealth for resses and bursts, and chasing down people are all roles the thief has been used for.

Ability to effectively 1v1 is not even close to a prerequisite for being a good class to bring to conquest pvp. Chronomancer is the worst 1v1 meta class on shatter, but can still be very useful. They (thief and mesmer) have been used for +1s, not even fights (which bruisers often excel at.

Of course “measure of effectiveness on mobility” accounts to the overall effectiveness of the class. In fact, it is sa huge part of pvp and one that thief is meant to excel at. There is no excuse. What would i make an excuse for? I support thief buffs/nerfs to other classes. What i don’t support is people spewing lies that don’t contribute in any meaningful way.

roaming dps is on its last leg in the current meta. All the mesmers in recent ESL have been playing bunker alacrity chronos. The only roamer per say is revenant which is an excellent bruiser.

yolo swaggins.2570:

snippet

I mostly agree with what you said in this thread, but it’s pointless to argue with people that obviously have never played Thief in PvP and therefore resort themselves to arguments like “thief has always been meta or it’s ability to decap/+1ing” without realizing the actual problem.

The main difference between warrior’s and thief’s current state in PvP though is that warriors have fallen short rather unexpectedly, whilst thieves had been vocal about the increasing problems with thief balance and role in PvP since mid 2014. There were tons of posts that highlighted the problems of thief balance and the strong focus on mere +1ing and decapping. These topics were constantly flooded by whine and flame of other classes, because thief apparantly seemed “fine” or even “OP” to them.

The concerns got bigger with the June Patch this year and an increasing power creep as thieves were more and more pushed into defensive specs (D/P SA), which may have been strong, but even this spec couldn’t mask the increasing struggles of thieves. The class has been a +1 and decap bot pretty much since the introduction of Panic Strike D/P build by shad in early 2014, thats why they asked for buffs to survivability and/or 1v1 capability, as HoT already indicated a not so bright future for stealth, which had been the only defense mechanic for thieves at this point.

Fast forward to now, the thief class has finally reached the point that many of us had warned people of. The continuous forum whine denied necessary buffs to thief’s defensive mechanics and 1v1 capability and pretty much renders them useless for the current meta as they just straight out die to AOE and power creep.

As predicted thief has fallen out of the meta, which is quite ironical considering that we’ve foreshadowed our own destiny without ANet doing anything about it. Moreso even players that used to complain about thieves back then started to acknowledge the pityful state that thief is currently in. Personally I think thief is fine and probably the most balanced profession at the moment, it’s just not viable under these circumstances. ANet can either nerf 6 out of 8 professions, which would probably be better for the sake of this game or they just buff warrior and thief. The problem though is that thief only fits into 1 specific role, whereas warrior has always been a more versatile class.

Almost 2 years of thief history in a nutshell

yolo swaggins.2570:

knight.8926:

compared to warriors thieves should be in heaven still

Actually the warrior community just over exaggerates their plight. Even if your roles are just back-capping and pet, warrior can still give and take more punishment than the thief and not have to rely heavily on a game mechanic to do so.

So no, not really.

Nop, not over exaggeration, i play thief, and i can see you don’t play warrior.
thief is no where close to warrior trash level.
thief is bad, but warrior is trash
thieves, even being not good, are still playable with the right teammates, which is proven by abjured, because thief is still the king of decap and killing low HP players.
warrior is completely unplayable for any role there is, which is why all warriors in tournament level rerolled.
if you seriously think other wise, play one, or just l2p.

lighter.2708:

Nop, not over exaggeration, i play thief, and i can see you don’t play warrior.
thief is no where close to warrior trash level.
thief is bad, but warrior is trash
thieves, even being not good, are still playable with the right teammates, which is proven by abjured, because thief is still the king of decap and killing low HP players.
warrior is completely unplayable for any role there is, which is why all warriors in tournament level rerolled.
if you seriously think other wise, play one, or just l2p.

There’s more than pvp in this game – and running and decapping only helps me that much in wvw or even pve.
I’m doing better on my warrior on whom I have maybe 30 hours than on my thief on whom I have several k of hours.

ETA: This is by no means a “warrior is fine, quit whining post” – just saying.
And if you look into the traits you’ll realize that thieves have got almost no defence, no access to might, no passives – which is different from any other profession in this game.
I don’t really want passives, but in this passive meta thief has been left out.
So you don’t even need to main a thief to see that what they’ve got is very little.

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

knight.8926:

compared to warriors thieves should be in heaven still

Warriors have been week for maybe a month or so.

Thief has been weak so long I can’t remember the last time they were even at an average level of strength.

For me they were still good before the blinding powder nerf (last year?). There may have been other changes at the time because after that I basically couldn’t play d/p anymore. Used to be my favourite class, it was very exciting to play.

Jana.6831:

lighter.2708:

Nop, not over exaggeration, i play thief, and i can see you don’t play warrior.
thief is no where close to warrior trash level.
thief is bad, but warrior is trash
thieves, even being not good, are still playable with the right teammates, which is proven by abjured, because thief is still the king of decap and killing low HP players.
warrior is completely unplayable for any role there is, which is why all warriors in tournament level rerolled.
if you seriously think other wise, play one, or just l2p.

There’s more than pvp in this game – and running and decapping only helps me that much in wvw or even pve.

This is PvP forum, not General forum.

lighter.2708:

This is PvP forum, not General forum.

So? Everything is balanced based on pvp.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Warrior, with it’s abyssmal skill floor and low skill ceiling, is filled with passives so new players can pick it up, get a feel for the combat mechanics and easily contribute to w/e they are doing.

Please, tell me more.

yolo swaggins.2570:

If anyone wonders why there is a lack of warriors, its most likely because it’s gameplay is boring.

Huh-huh.

yolo swaggins.2570:

It all requires minimal thinking since all of the skills are fire and forget while most of the traits play for you

Right. Sorry for saying this, but you sound like a delusional thief player that hasn’t played Warrior recently, if ever. And I’d like to say that’s a first, but I’d be lying.

Warrior has never been easy in PvP, unless you’re playing against fresh new players that barely know how a dodge button works. They’re an open book for most decent players making it the most easily counterable class in the entire game and required constant mindgames and fakes to actually do anything.
I say required, because even that’s completely pointless now.

Thieves definitely aren’t in a good PvP spot right now, but Warriors are at the point where the class itself is completely redundant. They have absolutely no role whatsoever, and even the little they can do is completely obscured by pretty much every other class.

The entire pvp community perfectly knows and acknowledges this, so if you honestly believe that the outcry about the Warrior is over-exaggeration, you plainly prove to anyone that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

That said, fighting for which class is worse is the stupidest argument one could have.
Both are in need of help, and both hopefully will get it.

laquito.5269:

yolo swaggins.2570:

snippet

I mostly agree with what you said in this thread, but it’s pointless to argue with people that obviously have never played Thief in PvP and therefore resort themselves to arguments like “thief has always been meta or it’s ability to decap/+1ing” without realizing the actual problem.

The main difference between warrior’s and thief’s current state in PvP though is that warriors have fallen short rather unexpectedly, whilst thieves had been vocal about the increasing problems with thief balance and role in PvP since mid 2014. There were tons of posts that highlighted the problems of thief balance and the strong focus on mere +1ing and decapping. These topics were constantly flooded by whine and flame of other classes, because thief apparantly seemed “fine” or even “OP” to them.

The concerns got bigger with the June Patch this year and an increasing power creep as thieves were more and more pushed into defensive specs (D/P SA), which may have been strong, but even this spec couldn’t mask the increasing struggles of thieves. The class has been a +1 and decap bot pretty much since the introduction of Panic Strike D/P build by shad in early 2014, thats why they asked for buffs to survivability and/or 1v1 capability, as HoT already indicated a not so bright future for stealth, which had been the only defense mechanic for thieves at this point.

Fast forward to now, the thief class has finally reached the point that many of us had warned people of. The continuous forum whine denied necessary buffs to thief’s defensive mechanics and 1v1 capability and pretty much renders them useless for the current meta as they just straight out die to AOE and power creep.

As predicted thief has fallen out of the meta, which is quite ironical considering that we’ve foreshadowed our own destiny without ANet doing anything about it. Moreso even players that used to complain about thieves back then started to acknowledge the pityful state that thief is currently in. Personally I think thief is fine and probably the most balanced profession at the moment, it’s just not viable under these circumstances. ANet can either nerf 6 out of 8 professions, which would probably be better for the sake of this game or they just buff warrior and thief. The problem though is that thief only fits into 1 specific role, whereas warrior has always been a more versatile class.

Almost 2 years of thief history in a nutshell

I predict that mesmer will be unviable
I predict that thief will get into the meta
I predict that warrior will get into the meta.

Oh look, all of these will come true.

Hard

Just a notification for you guys… but the 3 classes we have the most problems with are developped by the same dev lead. Coïncidence? i think not.

NB : I meant thieves – eles – guardian
NB2: i just said “problems” so it means “too good” and “too week” too.

Jana.6831:

lighter.2708:

This is PvP forum, not General forum.

So? Everything is balanced based on pvp.

You don’t discuss PvE nor WvW in a PvP forum. is it so hard to understand?

lighter.2708:

Jana.6831:

lighter.2708:

This is PvP forum, not General forum.

So? Everything is balanced based on pvp.

You don’t discuss PvE nor WvW in a PvP forum. is it so hard to understand?

You seem to be really smart.

Nath Forge Tempete.1645:

Just a notification for you guys… but the 3 classes we have the most problems with are developped by the same dev lead. Coïncidence? i think not.

NB : I meant thieves – eles – guardian
NB2: i just said “problems” so it means “too good” and “too week” too.

Why do we have the most problems with ele and guard?

ele getting nerf multiple times cause too OP (and tempest sucks compared to vanilly ele) and DH is BS =D (cause of instant traps + daze + stealth + full AOE block on shield of courage, etc)

May be biast here as I main a thief, I think thief is probably one of the most balanced class now, fair enough that we have a lot more dodges now. Ok we got acro gutted and dd kinda replaced the line. But after all we have gone through, I am actually enjoying pvp again, even pve.

Thief is weak because of other class’s were given far better surviving tools then us and easier to ways to burst or Presure. I was fighting a guildy as a staff/sw shield chrono mesmer last night and itvwas so hard to find a window to land an attack. High chaos armor up time along with wells evades and then sheild blocks. (Not played a chrono so i dont know much about them)

The dash trait is the closest form of protection we have now, I could say shadow arts is also good for it not the amount of reveal going around.

I don’t know why people keep saying that we can only camp corps or decapod as I am having a blast as staff theif. Maybe it’s the map choice as I mainly prefer to play stronghold instead of conquest mode.

yolo swaggins.2570:

What point? You guys regurgitate stuff everyone already knows and after me 1upping it with a semi-mocking post, all you can counter with is “Nope”?

In every MMO ever, the easiest classes to play are always the ones with more passives. And the more effective the passives are, the better. Warrior, with it’s abyssmal skill floor and low skill ceiling, is filled with passives so new players can pick it up, get a feel for the combat mechanics and easily contribute to w/e they are doing. It carries the player harder than other classes specifically for that reason by funneling the focus towards input.

I do know what warrior is going through and quite frankly the gripes are flat out petty.

If anyone wonders why there is a lack of warriors, its most likely because it’s gameplay is boring. All you have to do is land your attacks and all the vulnerability and might stacks you deal out by rotating skills will do the rest. It isn’t hard to build for damage and support because the warrior has a good selection for it like banners, Phalanx Strength. It isn’t hard to be tanky either since they have naturally high armor and almost the same amount of defensive buffs as they do offensive. Again banners and shouts.

It all requires minimal thinking since all of the skills are fire and forget while most of the traits play for you. I know it, most of the community knows it. But nobody wants to deal with warriors because, just like the thief community, they get loud to the point of being obnoxious.

The only difference is warrior can contribute. Warriors are built for brainless support and damage. All they have to do is land their attacks… Like final thrust, which can do more damage than backstab except it cleaves and doesn’t need stealth or positioning. Just wait till they are half dead and then stab them.

I dunno what stuff you are smoking, but if you don’t know what warriors going through why do you even post about the things you don’t know about.

Might Stacking ? Banners ? Are you high ? Phalanx is not even a thing in pvp, you just bring Revenant for might stacking. Banners …. there is just one banner to consider which is not even unique by it’s mechanics.

Toughness? Buddy wake up, toughness means nearly nothing right now, when every other toon get access to Protection.

Shouts and condi cleanse ? There are better options on classes right now.

Passives ? Which passives you are even talking about ?

The difference between Warrior and Thief, that Thief still does his job, by decaping + 1 ing someone (not so good in dueling as it used to be).

Warriors ? There is no reason to bring one, not a team support build (because it’s weak now in comparison to Elems and Druids), not as a bruiser (because you will never be on par with DH in terms of damage and active mitigation, not on par with Engi due to damage and sustain)

And as a final thing, Thief at least can get away, Warriors can’t.

Quadox.7834:

I predict that mesmer will be unviable
I predict that thief will get into the meta
I predict that warrior will get into the meta.

Oh look, all of these will come true.

Hard

Whats your point….? If you got nothing to contribute please stay away from this topic and rather keep practicing Mesmer on the Duel Server, it’s not like you know anything about Thief balance anyway.

I wish Anet would release any data they have about win rates (or content completion rates for PvE) by class. I play another game where the devs do this, and it really helps with threads like these. For instance, people will start complaining such-and-such is OP, then that month’s data is released and shows that it’s not nearly as OP as we thought.

meow one twenty.4376:

I’m willing to bet most of the trash talking Thieves are now playing DH.

This is what people are missing.

You got ganked and trash talked by a thief so you want them nerfed. Sure, wish granted. The toxic people will just play whatever spoonfeeds them kills and people actually more interested in the class suffer.

laquito.5269:

Quadox.7834:

I predict that mesmer will be unviable
I predict that thief will get into the meta
I predict that warrior will get into the meta.

Oh look, all of these will come true.

Hard

Whats your point….? If you got nothing to contribute please stay away from this topic and rather keep practicing Mesmer on the Duel Server, it’s not like you know anything about Thief balance anyway.

That was semi-serious, but nevermind that. You are the one that brought up that “The community forshadowed our own destiny without ANET doing anything about it”. I am very sorry, but ArenaNet can’t balance the game through divination. The same goes for “being vocal”. Just “being vocal” doesn’t help as Arenanet, as a professional company, can’t listen to random people crying. A good way to get the point across is for example a list of bullet points or simply a nicely formatted text of as-objective-as-possible information. This cuts down on the time it takes to read > devs can read it faster > easier to get the point of the post.

And as i have stated repeatedly before, i am not against thief buffs by any means. What i am against is false information spread such as saying thief has been weak for several months/even longer when thief was amazing in 5v5 before HoT and june patch, as evidenced by pretty much every single competitive team during all of 2015 and even longer than that. The reason i want people to stop shouting things like “X is anets golden child” or “Anet hates thief” is because i know that it will never ever help arenanet balance the game- which is, in the end, what we all want.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Warriors are brainless

Gonna have to half-disagree with you there. When the majority of your big deeps comes from being right up in your opponent’s face and you have to eat most damage thrown your way, there’s several layers of strategy that need to be employed to make that happen.

They cant teleport to their enemies, and all of their movement skill can be interrupted. Sure, its easy to pick up because the majority of their damage comes from straightforward, easily interpreted damaging skills, but its that very same straightforwardness that makes them so weak against something that isnt AI.

The warrior -as a class- is not clever, but to be effective in pvp, the player must be clever.

I have played every core class and I have learned that few skills to use means harder way to play. As an engi and ele lover I feel they are much more easier than a warrior. Warrior only has few skills and can not function under some circumstances. Whereas with engi you can survive anything and adjust to anything if you play smart.

Thieves were not that bad until new elite skills arrived. They can now deal an immense damage. But they became one trick ponies and lost their beautiful playstyle. Some still enjoy and use them. Some just gave up. Like core lb rangers gave up.

Thief has been going down in relative effectiveness over the past two years. Thief used to be one of the better 1v1 classes, but now it is advised that thieves avoid 1v1 altogether. Our build diversity has been absolutely gutted, the only thing we were good at after the June patch was the +1 role and decapping.

Then HoT comes. I would say DD is a perfectly well balanced trait line, the problem is the power creep all of the other classes experienced with the June patch and HoT has rendered thieves relatively impotent. DD really didn’t give us anything spectacular we didn’t have before, pre June acro was just as good till it was gutted. We went from a high risk high reward class to a high risk meh reward class. Other classes can deal as much or more damage than us with far less fear of death.

Here’s a general thought I just had regarding Thieves, thanks to Dakarius’s post and some others:

People have mentioned that currently, the Thief’s role in a Conq comp is a +1/pet who rotates around quickly. There seems to be irritation about that role, and I think Dakarius might have highlighted why that is (for me, since I don’t really get why having a unique role is a bad thing): Thieves used to be one of the better 1v1 classes.

Let’s examine that for a moment though. A Thief’s ability to traverse a map quickly is probably not going to go away, so they can skip around from point to point quickly. IF a Thief is one of the best 1v1 classes, and they can isolate points extremely quickly to create 1v1 situations on sides, doesn’t that make them potentially too good? You have a class who can go win 1v1s on a dime, so you either need Mesmer portal support or someone equally quick to rotate over and save the 1v1 scenario from a rotating Thief, who can slide off of the point and go somewhere else quickly.

Of course that’s all theoretical, and there are more variables to consider (TTK in the 1v1, speed other classes can rotate, how bunker can bunkers bunkers, etc.). It just seems like the mobility of the Thief lends itself to +1ing wherever he/she is needed, and in that case, making them ruin classes in 1v1 as well potentially makes them monsters.

On the flip side, a Thief should be able to apply pressure to individual targets appropriately, so if they rotate into a teamfight, they can skip around the edges (not Warrior-mode into AoE and die) and give other targets something to think about. Seems like a tightrope to walk, but I just don’t see why being a +1 role is a bad thing.

Quadox.7834:

snippet

Only a scrub would say things like “class x is their favourite”, do you honestly think they’ll read their posts any further or give any value to it?

I simply don’t like your whole argumentation on thief balance, as it just screams hypocrisy. Thief already had issues since 2k14, but those were still overshined by the superior mobility and stealth which basically kept them in meta. You can acknowledge that or not, denying it won’t make it any more untrue though.

Thief weaknesses didn’t come out of nowhere, they’ve had problems with sustained builds before HoT, they’ve had problems with condi overload before HoT and they’ve been squishy before HoT, the only thing that kept them viable was mobility and stealth, so how can one possibly claim that thief wasn’t struggling before, just because they were meta, it doesn’t mean that they had no problems.

Those that still believe that Thief is viable can just watch Helseth’s TCG – 55HP analysis or ask him if he’d ever play with a thief comp atm.

Cogbyrn.7283:

-snip-

You’re missing the point.

Right now, Thieves cannot fight without adds. It isn’t fair to them to insist that because they have the option to traverse obstacles if they take a specific weapon, they should not be allowed to be a capable opponent for decapping a contested point or even defending a pre-owned one. That’s like a teacher saying that because a student can finish a quiz quickly, he has to get a set amount wrong.

You don’t punish a class’s fighting potential in a game where there are supposedly no roles by stuffing them into a role. I don’t know how the game would change if thieves could actually contest points, but it certainly isn’t entertaining or engaging for the people that play thief that are looking for action.

Thieves should have the potential to win fights against skilled players, baseline, in 1v1. being able to fight should not be a privilege that automatically is stripped if you can move quickly, at the cost of all dps, mind you. If you have a specific weapon, mind you further.

Maybe some talented players will be able to take that option of 1v1 potential and turn into complete monsters at the game, but if that skill level is reached then monstrosity is deserved, for any class. And this is 1v1 we’re talking about. Send two people to a point and the problem is resolved.

Another thing to tack on (can’t believe I’m wading into this hell storm, but I bought this game solely for the Thief class and I’m ready to leave based solely on its state. so I care. stop judging me) is that many Thief players have stated in game and off that they’d give Shortbow 5 away for an actual class. Like Azure said, it doesn’t make sense to give a class an advantage then nerf it dead- just change the advantage. Also, I like how you want this balanced around PvP content and then ignore PvE… we are the new Ranger. In actual raid groups, I can’t get in. I’m a Thief, I literally bring nothing. I do not have high damage, I do not have great condi, I don’t enjoy high supportive capabilities, I’m not particularly survivable without dodges, but its k I can shortbow 5 the boss? I mean…really? Its totally ok to nerf a Thief straight from no PVP viability to gtfo my raid PVE viability? Makes sense guys. Warrior still goes, its why I firmly believe that you are in a better spot. You have SOMETHING. Thief is just the run in circles. Also, I think both classes need help so don’t try and tell me I play favorites- read the signature.

I am ready for people to argue with the most logical post in this forum. Go.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

You’re missing the point.

Right now, Thieves cannot fight without adds. It isn’t fair to them to insist that because they have the option to traverse obstacles if they take a specific weapon, they should not be allowed to be a capable opponent for decapping a contested point or even defending a pre-owned one. That’s like a teacher saying that because a student can finish a quiz quickly, he has to get a set amount wrong.

You don’t punish a class’s fighting potential in a game where there are supposedly no roles by stuffing them into a role. I don’t know how the game would change if thieves could actually contest points, but it certainly isn’t entertaining or engaging for the people that play thief that are looking for action.

Thieves should have the potential to win fights against skilled players, baseline, in 1v1. being able to fight should not be a privilege that automatically is stripped if you can move quickly, at the cost of all dps, mind you. If you have a specific weapon, mind you further.

Maybe some talented players will be able to take that option of 1v1 potential and turn into complete monsters at the game, but if that skill level is reached then monstrosity is deserved, for any class. And this is 1v1 we’re talking about. Send two people to a point and the problem is resolved.

I’m mostly just thinking out loud. I don’t think Thieves should be totally unable to 1v1, but 1v1 balance is precarious, since your build could potentially devastate one class in 1v1 but fall short against another. At least, that’s how my life has been since I started playing Necro years ago.

But at this point I’m just examining the idea of a class that can:

• Regularly win 1v1s
• Back-cap points with high mobility
• Support fights to +1 with high mobility

Say the Thief back-caps a point. Knowing Thieves are strong in 1v1, can you just send 1 person to go try to contest? Probably not. So the Thief just theoretically decapped/capped a side, and forced a rotation of 2 players to contest. Given the Thief’s high mobility, once the 2 arrive, he can choose to fight for a bit, or just bounce and slam back to a different point to support. If one of the 2 who contested rotates back, the Thief can slam back to 1v1 the node, since Thieves are strong in 1v1.

Could any other class fill that niche/role as well as a Thief? It seems like an extremely important one to Conq-mode, and if not, it means every team basically needs a Thief. Is that balance?

And you can’t tell me you believe that GW2 is designed as a game with no roles. That marketing ploy was specifically targeting Tank/Healer/DPS roles in traditional MMOs. Any game mode, especially PvP, is going to develop niches that require certain attributes to succeed. You want to hold points, so you put someone tanky on the point to survive. Bunkers are born. You need to be able to kill bunkers, so theoretically, Assassins (or whatever you want to call them) are born. You probably need to rotate and support fights effectively, so Roamers are born. Some classes can potentially fill multiple roles to varying degrees, so you get middle-grounders such as Bruisers who can absorb damage but still fight without being impotent. Since each class is unique, a distribution is going to develop.

If anything, I think roles could and should be established from a design perspective so ANet can officially balance around them. Instead, everyone wants to be able to be everything, and it contributes to constant complaining/desire to avoid the role a class excels at because the player just wants to be something else. When ANet tries to balance for all of those cases, you get a wild, nebulous balance ride instead of being able to provide feedback specifically around why your class cannot fulfill the role it’s designed to fill.

In any case, I don’t really think it’s fair for a class to be completely unable to contest a point, since you can make an argument I made above in the other direction. If a Thief cannot contest a point solo, then the team with the Thief requires 2 people to rotate anyway. At that point, what good is the mobility of the Thief if you’re waiting for another to arrive to make progress? Perhaps the Thief could soften the target up a bit just in time for support to arrive, but does any team really need a Thief ever at that point? Maybe not, and that doesn’t sound good either.

I don’t know, I was bored on calls and wanted to try thinking about Thieves from various angles. Regardless, I still don’t feel sorry for the class, like I don’t feel sorry for any class.

Serious Thought.5394:

Another thing to tack on (can’t believe I’m wading into this hell storm, but I bought this game solely for the Thief class and I’m ready to leave based solely on its state. so I care. stop judging me) is that many Thief players have stated in game and off that they’d give Shortbow 5 away for an actual class. Like Azure said, it doesn’t make sense to give a class an advantage then nerf it dead- just change the advantage. Also, I like how you want this balanced around PvP content and then ignore PvE… we are the new Ranger. In actual raid groups, I can’t get in. I’m a Thief, I literally bring nothing. I do not have high damage, I do not have great condi, I don’t enjoy high supportive capabilities, I’m not particularly survivable without dodges, but its k I can shortbow 5 the boss? I mean…really? Its totally ok to nerf a Thief straight from no PVP viability to gtfo my raid PVE viability? Makes sense guys. Warrior still goes, its why I firmly believe that you are in a better spot. You have SOMETHING. Thief is just the run in circles. Also, I think both classes need help so don’t try and tell me I play favorites- read the signature.

I am ready for people to argue with the most logical post in this forum. Go.

I was just thinking from an sPvP perspective since we’re on the sPvP forums. Thieves in PvE are a completely different animal. However, if you balance a Thief in PvE by increasing its DPS (which, the game needs damage meters, I’ll say that until I RIP), would that potentially help solve problems in PvP? The class almost feels designed specifically with PvP in mind. For PvE, what would they do to increase overall DPS? It seems to me they’d have to just ramp up the auto-attack damage until it gets them up to “snuff”. How much auto attack damage would that be, and would it be outrageous for PvP, given the rest of the Thief’s kitten nal? It might not be, honestly, but I don’t know what kind of DPS any class is regularly putting out, because I have a difficult time trusting people’s ability to do math/spreadsheeting accurately and objectively (game needs damage meters).

And again, re: the OP, it isn’t like Thieves are the only class to be hoisted by their own petard. Necros have seemingly regularly been balanced around “stars aligning” situations because of their overall design, resulting in a whole lot of lackluster traits/weapon abilities/etc. Sure it can be frustrating, but to single an apology out to one class, or think ANet hates a class? Silliness.

And yes, I know Reapers seem to be in a really good place right now, and I really enjoy mine. Good Thieves are still a chore of a fight, though.

Cogbyrn.7283:

And you can’t tell me you believe that GW2 is designed as a game with no roles. That marketing ploy was specifically targeting Tank/Healer/DPS roles in traditional MMOs. Any game mode, especially PvP, is going to develop niches that require certain attributes to succeed. You want to hold points, so you put someone tanky on the point to survive. Bunkers are born. You need to be able to kill bunkers, so theoretically, Assassins (or whatever you want to call them) are born. You probably need to rotate and support fights effectively, so Roamers are born. Some classes can potentially fill multiple roles to varying degrees, so you get middle-grounders such as Bruisers who can absorb damage but still fight without being impotent. Since each class is unique, a distribution is going to develop.

I was addressing the trinity archetype in my comment about roles, but I lacked explanation on the following.

As it stands now, thief does not have the capabilities to fill any role -but- the +1 /backcap that they fill now, because bruiser specs are nonexistent, tank specs are nonexistent, and assassin specs lack the sustain to deal with the above two when applied to thief. we’re 100% roamer and because of that thieves can only combat efficiently when there are additional players.

This is essentially the problem we need rectified. We don’t have the baseline values required to build in a way that allows us to be combative in the current meta on our own.

SuperduperMLGbsns.9345:

Vieux P.1238:

Hey thieves, get skill’s!

>playing Thief
>running into a stack of guard track
>dieing instantly

Skilled gameplay 2015. Well done.
And no, traps are meant to lay them hidden, so people run into them without knowing that.

Whoever is in charge for Thief and Guardian balancing needs to be fired. He seems to hate his job.
But hey, nothing will be changed as long as there are enough scrubs who yell “l2p” under every comment.
9.2k true shot on an 11k hp Thief. Legit.

Been playing this game for 2 years now and with how balance is handled I’m not surprised no one watches it on Twitch. Balance simply sucks and that’s because Anet treats gw2 just as another casual game; they are more worried about making cosmetics and useless shhit. That’s why it’ll never be a competitive game at this pace. I would have fire the whole balance department by now.

“ANet can either nerf 6 out of 8 professions, which would probably be better for the sake of this game or they just buff warrior and thief. The problem though is that thief only fits into 1 specific role, whereas warrior has always been a more versatile class.”

I agree with your post except for here. I disagree with nerfing the other classes but only because there’s no segregation between PvP and PvE skills like WoW having skills that lasts a certain time in PvP or PvE. If cooldowns, skill power, and duration in PvP and PvE were different then I’d agree with nerfing the other classes but the problem there is you’d make their story instances and events harder.

I agree with buffing thief and warrior however, they need it. Thief mobility just isn’t good enough to justify the power deficit and even then relies on spending energy, shortbow 5 twice means initiative needs to build up to do something other than autoattack. Other classes have big AoE utility, CC, damage, invulnerability, attunements assuring something is going to be off CD, stability, shrouds, etc., yet we have to “give something up” if we wan’t survivability and/or damage buffs?! Lol! The fact that we only have single target damage suggests that damage should be pretty big. Not just single damage but conditional, and people can mitigate it with reveal so reveal being introduced itself would justify damage buffs for thief.

laquito.5269:

Quadox.7834:

snippet

Only a scrub would say things like “class x is their favourite”, do you honestly think they’ll read their posts any further or give any value to it?

I simply don’t like your whole argumentation on thief balance, as it just screams hypocrisy. Thief already had issues since 2k14, but those were still overshined by the superior mobility and stealth which basically kept them in meta. You can acknowledge that or not, denying it won’t make it any more untrue though.

Thief weaknesses didn’t come out of nowhere, they’ve had problems with sustained builds before HoT, they’ve had problems with condi overload before HoT and they’ve been squishy before HoT, the only thing that kept them viable was mobility and stealth, so how can one possibly claim that thief wasn’t struggling before, just because they were meta, it doesn’t mean that they had no problems.

Those that still believe that Thief is viable can just watch Helseth’s TCG – 55HP analysis or ask him if he’d ever play with a thief comp atm.

I totally confirm this post.

Thief started being a broken class when they added 20000 craploads into steal to cover its weaknesses.

Then they started giving sigils ridicolous power creep and thief became not only worse balance wise, but even worse compared to other classes.

If they just removed all the passive crap ( and nerfed steal cuz it’s been almost 2 years it’s an uber OP insta skill), due to power creep, thief would seem like a totally worthless proff designed to have no perk aside stealth ( which it isn’t anymore).

They should just rehaul thief imo.

They should rehaul a lot of things tbh.

laquito.5269:

Quadox.7834:

snippet

Only a scrub would say things like “class x is their favourite”, do you honestly think they’ll read their posts any further or give any value to it?

I simply don’t like your whole argumentation on thief balance, as it just screams hypocrisy. Thief already had issues since 2k14, but those were still overshined by the superior mobility and stealth which basically kept them in meta. You can acknowledge that or not, denying it won’t make it any more untrue though.

Thief weaknesses didn’t come out of nowhere, they’ve had problems with sustained builds before HoT, they’ve had problems with condi overload before HoT and they’ve been squishy before HoT, the only thing that kept them viable was mobility and stealth, so how can one possibly claim that thief wasn’t struggling before, just because they were meta, it doesn’t mean that they had no problems.

Those that still believe that Thief is viable can just watch Helseth’s TCG – 55HP analysis or ask him if he’d ever play with a thief comp atm.

Not forgetting that we had vampirism-rune to cover up the low sustain. That got removed, too.

A lot of people don´t want thieves to be the best in 1vs1… We don´t want that, too…
Being able to 1vs1 eveything with high mobility isn´t good in pvp, but being bottom in that regard is completely wrong, too. Especially that we aren´t good team-fighters either. The decent chance against other classes is not equal to " being able to 1vs1 everyone and win easily".
Another point a lot of people come up with is that “thieves always were meta in pvp” and sometimes even go into “they got what they deserved”. The first one is not completely right and there was a short time were thieves had to rethink their opportunities in pvp. Furthermore being “mandatory in every competitive team” is a two-edged-sword. Exactly ONE thief was used in almost every team. Thats different to 4 eles or other stacking classes in the past. Last one is completely imbalanced as everyone knows and must change faster that what we have seen from anet. The other one is more difficult. ONE proffession ine every team for exactly ONE role. Its not about nerfing that one proffession, instead giving other classes the possibilty to to that role, too. At the same time that single proffession need at least one alternative. How everything happened now it has gone the wrong way.

Lets say 8 teams with thieves in a tournament before june-patch: 8 from 40 are thieves = 20% were thieves. Was that good? Of course not.

Now 1 thief from 8 teams/40 people, 2,5% were thieves, Optimal would be around 10% (yeah, not exactly :P .

I´m well aware that it didn´t looked much better for ranger/necro in the past (necro was in top-team NA the whole year ^^ ), but that is definitly not a reason that thieves would deserve the state we are now.
I was hoping to get to a more or less balanced state before leagues, what failed horribly.
People saying thieves deserve that state are apparently not interested in balance and shouldn´t post here.

To another people saying the grammar from some people is terribly… we are not all english-speaking from mother tongue but at least try. Please respect that. You are welcome to come over into the german forum and write in german… (don´t expect an answer, german forum is dead).

Cogbyrn.7283:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

You’re missing the point.

Right now, Thieves cannot fight without adds. It isn’t fair to them to insist that because they have the option to traverse obstacles if they take a specific weapon, they should not be allowed to be a capable opponent for decapping a contested point or even defending a pre-owned one. That’s like a teacher saying that because a student can finish a quiz quickly, he has to get a set amount wrong.

You don’t punish a class’s fighting potential in a game where there are supposedly no roles by stuffing them into a role. I don’t know how the game would change if thieves could actually contest points, but it certainly isn’t entertaining or engaging for the people that play thief that are looking for action.

Thieves should have the potential to win fights against skilled players, baseline, in 1v1. being able to fight should not be a privilege that automatically is stripped if you can move quickly, at the cost of all dps, mind you. If you have a specific weapon, mind you further.

Maybe some talented players will be able to take that option of 1v1 potential and turn into complete monsters at the game, but if that skill level is reached then monstrosity is deserved, for any class. And this is 1v1 we’re talking about. Send two people to a point and the problem is resolved.

I’m mostly just thinking out loud. I don’t think Thieves should be totally unable to 1v1, but 1v1 balance is precarious, since your build could potentially devastate one class in 1v1 but fall short against another. At least, that’s how my life has been since I started playing Necro years ago.

But at this point I’m just examining the idea of a class that can:

• Regularly win 1v1s
• Back-cap points with high mobility
• Support fights to +1 with high mobility

Say the Thief back-caps a point. Knowing Thieves are strong in 1v1, can you just send 1 person to go try to contest? Probably not. So the Thief just theoretically decapped/capped a side, and forced a rotation of 2 players to contest. Given the Thief’s high mobility, once the 2 arrive, he can choose to fight for a bit, or just bounce and slam back to a different point to support. If one of the 2 who contested rotates back, the Thief can slam back to 1v1 the node, since Thieves are strong in 1v1.

Could any other class fill that niche/role as well as a Thief? It seems like an extremely important one to Conq-mode, and if not, it means every team basically needs a Thief. Is that balance?

And you can’t tell me you believe that GW2 is designed as a game with no roles. That marketing ploy was specifically targeting Tank/Healer/DPS roles in traditional MMOs. Any game mode, especially PvP, is going to develop niches that require certain attributes to succeed. You want to hold points, so you put someone tanky on the point to survive. Bunkers are born. You need to be able to kill bunkers, so theoretically, Assassins (or whatever you want to call them) are born. You probably need to rotate and support fights effectively, so Roamers are born. Some classes can potentially fill multiple roles to varying degrees, so you get middle-grounders such as Bruisers who can absorb damage but still fight without being impotent. Since each class is unique, a distribution is going to develop.

If anything, I think roles could and should be established from a design perspective so ANet can officially balance around them. Instead, everyone wants to be able to be everything, and it contributes to constant complaining/desire to avoid the role a class excels at because the player just wants to be something else. When ANet tries to balance for all of those cases, you get a wild, nebulous balance ride instead of being able to provide feedback specifically around why your class cannot fulfill the role it’s designed to fill.

In any case, I don’t really think it’s fair for a class to be completely unable to contest a point, since you can make an argument I made above in the other direction. If a Thief cannot contest a point solo, then the team with the Thief requires 2 people to rotate anyway. At that point, what good is the mobility of the Thief if you’re waiting for another to arrive to make progress? Perhaps the Thief could soften the target up a bit just in time for support to arrive, but does any team really need a Thief ever at that point? Maybe not, and that doesn’t sound good either.

I don’t know, I was bored on calls and wanted to try thinking about Thieves from various angles. Regardless, I still don’t feel sorry for the class, like I don’t feel sorry for any class.

Well, +1 for that post.
Always needed and never really needed are both wrong.
“Regardless, I still don’t feel sorry for the class, like I don’t feel sorry for any class.”
This.
It was anets job to balance stuff, create build-diversity (for every-class), alternative ways to play a class (elites) and a interesting pvp-community. While I´m sure evryone knows that a perfect balance is pretty much impossible, anet failed horribly even at the beginning >imo<.
Thieves weren´t onehotting people since a long time. It was about finishing low targets (D/P), duelling long time ago (S/D) or “oneshot” from stealth TOGETHER with mesmer. But not alone.
What I think about thieves being able (note: able and not killing everything alone) to 1vs1 I wrote in my previous post.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

I was addressing the trinity archetype in my comment about roles, but I lacked explanation on the following.

As it stands now, thief does not have the capabilities to fill any role -but- the +1 /backcap that they fill now, because bruiser specs are nonexistent, tank specs are nonexistent, and assassin specs lack the sustain to deal with the above two when applied to thief. we’re 100% roamer and because of that thieves can only combat efficiently when there are additional players.

This is essentially the problem we need rectified. We don’t have the baseline values required to build in a way that allows us to be combative in the current meta on our own.

You make a valid point, and combined with how filling that role seems to also impact the Thief’s ability to perform in other venues (namely PvE, because Thieves have always been WvW roamer extraordinaires), I don’t think it’s sufficient for a Thief to only fill that role. Bunkers can potentially serve as tank-roles in PvE, Bruisers can off-tank/tank in a pinch while still bringing DPS in PvE, Assassins would ideally be able to perform a DPS role, and Group Support is most likely useful for allowing others to spec more aggressively into damage in a PvE scene.

A +1/Backcapper, though, is very, very specific to just sPvP, and it also just doesn’t sound very fun by design. You either cap points while no one is there, or hope an ally is joining a fight so you don’t feel like you’re going to get wrecked.

So provided it IS the case where a Thief is hopeless in those other areas, they do need something. I’m a bit skeptical that many here have really put the time and effort in to adapt to a shifting game, as I think they instead are latching onto a mob that is stating Thieves are weak, so they have an out. However, it is a valid argument, in my opinion, that simply filling a +1/Backcap role isn’t sufficient for a class’s design. So it does seem like Thieves could use some design work/pressure tweaking.

I appreciate you (and you, Serious Thought, for the PvE balance angle) taking this journey with me on examining the thought I had regarding Thief balance and sPvP “roles”.

This thread is hilarious, some of these people are just trying to stroke there own ego.
They just don’t want to admit they are being carried by arena net.

nocta If you really think s/d was the best 1vs1 thief set, i really have to give you the old face palm. It was always d/p, it became closer when they nerfed blinding powder. my god man….

Arcade.8901:

yolo swaggins.2570:

What point? You guys regurgitate stuff everyone already knows and after me 1upping it with a semi-mocking post, all you can counter with is “Nope”?

In every MMO ever, the easiest classes to play are always the ones with more passives. And the more effective the passives are, the better. Warrior, with it’s abyssmal skill floor and low skill ceiling, is filled with passives so new players can pick it up, get a feel for the combat mechanics and easily contribute to w/e they are doing. It carries the player harder than other classes specifically for that reason by funneling the focus towards input.

I do know what warrior is going through and quite frankly the gripes are flat out petty.

If anyone wonders why there is a lack of warriors, its most likely because it’s gameplay is boring. All you have to do is land your attacks and all the vulnerability and might stacks you deal out by rotating skills will do the rest. It isn’t hard to build for damage and support because the warrior has a good selection for it like banners, Phalanx Strength. It isn’t hard to be tanky either since they have naturally high armor and almost the same amount of defensive buffs as they do offensive. Again banners and shouts.

It all requires minimal thinking since all of the skills are fire and forget while most of the traits play for you. I know it, most of the community knows it. But nobody wants to deal with warriors because, just like the thief community, they get loud to the point of being obnoxious.

The only difference is warrior can contribute. Warriors are built for brainless support and damage. All they have to do is land their attacks… Like final thrust, which can do more damage than backstab except it cleaves and doesn’t need stealth or positioning. Just wait till they are half dead and then stab them.

I dunno what stuff you are smoking, but if you don’t know what warriors going through why do you even post about the things you don’t know about.

Might Stacking ? Banners ? Are you high ? Phalanx is not even a thing in pvp, you just bring Revenant for might stacking. Banners …. there is just one banner to consider which is not even unique by it’s mechanics.

Toughness? Buddy wake up, toughness means nearly nothing right now, when every other toon get access to Protection.

Shouts and condi cleanse ? There are better options on classes right now.

Passives ? Which passives you are even talking about ?

The difference between Warrior and Thief, that Thief still does his job, by decaping + 1 ing someone (not so good in dueling as it used to be).

Warriors ? There is no reason to bring one, not a team support build (because it’s weak now in comparison to Elems and Druids), not as a bruiser (because you will never be on par with DH in terms of damage and active mitigation, not on par with Engi due to damage and sustain)

And as a final thing, Thief at least can get away, Warriors can’t.

Exclaiming “HOW COULD YOU EVEN THINK THAT” and then expect me to go off of your word without any explanation.

Also…

A thief uses the best chase skill to catch and kill a warrior. Takes him 3 minutes and he has to use what is arguably an exploit. And you guys want more mobility? lol