I'm getting tired of conquest
today no spvp for me, tomorrow will be the same… too boring….. we need some solo stuff, 2vs2 or something else competitive, to allow ppl to play also without team… only few ppl have a team, for the others only pug mode… in the last days also find ppl shouting mists is hard…
it’s also no sense pvp atm, no qp, no tickets, i love to play only for fun, really, and must be the way, but how can i have fun with the same game mode? ppl love to show to others to be the best player, and now only good team can show it, but solo player cant…
also with qp you cant tell that the first is the best player, you can just say that he play with a good team
The same game mode isnt necessarily the problem, look at LoL.
The problem is the depth of builds and the combat. Traits dont REALLY feel like they affect very much for the most part, due to many of them being extremely bad. Weapons feel confining rather than defining, and since there are only a few viable builds each class is pretty stale at the moment.
If pvp in GW2 had the depth that LoL matches did (lane phase, mid game, team fight, roaming, etc) just stuff that makes it more than RUN AROUND AND BUNKER ON POINTS OR TRY TO KILL THINGS then the game would be a lot more fun because it would have levels to it. I actually think maps are currently too small. You don’t really have to strategize because you can pretty much get almost anywhere instantly. There isnt much of a risk in running to a point. Additionally I think that matches should be to 1000pts, give more defined timers on special objectives and make them worth more. Spread them out so that going for one risks a cap node more. Make it so that maps start with 1 node active, the mid one, then after a few minutes the second node is active, then a few minutes later have the third node go after. This forces CHANGES IN GAMEPLAY within the match, phases that adjust how something is approached. This is what makes LoL so interesting.
I’d also LOVE to see a map like TF2 capture nodes where each team owns 3, 1 in the very middle is neutral, and you fight to control all 7, pushing through different areas each time a different node is being fought over (THIS is much better IMO). Right now the combat depth is extremely shallow and so there isnt really any way to stop that but rebuild a few systems.
Condition removal isnt strategic, it’s just there for most classes. You kinda just remove conditions cuz you can at certain points. “Oh many i have a lot of bleeding and im poisoned, better clear it before I heal.” But that doesnt feel like its actually necessary or a big deal in any way. Conditions are applied SO readily in many cases that the removal HAS to be like this. Its a mistake on both sides of the design.
Boons are far too plentiful for how good they are. The majority of classes dont have any reliable way to remove boons. Strategic boon removal should be something EVERY class has ACCESS to in some way. This would heavily break down the bunker meta and allow for new builds to emerge.
Many weapons are confused in what they want to do. Swords for warriors are power and condi dmg but do neither well. Daggers for thieves are mostly power but have death blossom in there for some reason (although I’m aware of bleed builds using it and caltrops). Scepter for necro is obviously a condi wep but the #3 scales off of power and gains %power damage per condi applied…how does that make any sense?
There are no real BIG moments. I feel like most of the very powerful abilities have such fast cast times OR roughly NO real telegraphy that you can get lost in the stream of particles. EX Cloak and Dagger should have a BIG SWIRLING BLACK THING OF SHADOWS around the thief’s hand when they are casting it for how important of an ability it is. Otherwise it just looks like a dagger attack and its extremely hard to avoid. An example of this done well is CHURNING EARTH which doesnt even hit that hard(which to me is hilarious for the work you have to do to get it to hit compared to CnD). Stuff just doesnt FEEL like it has impact and things like cripple and immobilize are far too readily available to the point where it doesnt feel like you need to even think about when you use them.
Additionally stealth really just needs to have revealed go to 5 seconds and have the 1 second longer stealth trait reduce it to 4 seconds. Currently 3 seconds is not enough and allows for perma stealthing. Stealth is no fun to fight. It’s not specifically OP but it creates boring and frustrating situations. It is also TOO GOOD for how insanely available it is to use. Anet said, during pre-beta, they understand how powerful stealth was and that’s why they wanted SHORT DURATION stealthing as opposed to the more traditional permastealth prior to combat, come out of nowhere and nuke ur target. Well guess what we got….
(edited by Rump Buffalo.2594)
The same game mode isnt necessarily the problem, look at LoL.
The problem is the depth of builds and the combat. Traits dont REALLY feel like they affect very much for the most part, due to many of them being extremely bad. Weapons feel confining rather than defining, and since there are only a few viable builds each class is pretty stale at the moment.
If pvp in GW2 had the depth that LoL matches did (lane phase, mid game, team fight, roaming, etc) just stuff that makes it more than RUN AROUND AND BUNKER ON POINTS OR TRY TO KILL THINGS then the game would be a lot more fun because it would have levels to it. I actually think maps are currently too small. You don’t really have to strategize because you can pretty much get almost anywhere instantly. There isnt much of a risk in running to a point. Additionally I think that matches should be to 1000pts, give more defined timers on special objectives and make them worth more. Spread them out so that going for one risks a cap node more. Make it so that maps start with 1 node active, the mid one, then after a few minutes the second node is active, then a few minutes later have the third node go after. This forces CHANGES IN GAMEPLAY within the match, phases that adjust how something is approached. This is what makes LoL so interesting.
I’d also LOVE to see a map like TF2 capture nodes where each team owns 3, 1 in the very middle is neutral, and you fight to control all 7, pushing through different areas each time a different node is being fought over (THIS is much better IMO). Right now the combat depth is extremely shallow and so there isnt really any way to stop that but rebuild a few systems.
Condition removal isnt strategic, it’s just there for most classes. You kinda just remove conditions cuz you can at certain points. “Oh many i have a lot of bleeding and im poisoned, better clear it before I heal.” But that doesnt feel like its actually necessary or a big deal in any way. Conditions are applied SO readily in many cases that the removal HAS to be like this. Its a mistake on both sides of the design.
Boons are far too plentiful for how good they are. The majority of classes dont have any reliable way to remove boons. Strategic boon removal should be something EVERY class has ACCESS to in some way. This would heavily break down the bunker meta and allow for new builds to emerge.
Many weapons are confused in what they want to do. Swords for warriors are power and condi dmg but do neither well. Daggers for thieves are mostly power but have death blossom in there for some reason (although I’m aware of bleed builds using it and caltrops). Scepter for necro is obviously a condi wep but the #3 scales off of power and gains %power damage per condi applied…how does that make any sense?
There are no real BIG moments. I feel like most of the very powerful abilities have such fast cast times OR roughly NO real telegraphy that you can get lost in the stream of particles. EX Cloak and Dagger should have a BIG SWIRLING BLACK THING OF SHADOWS around the thief’s hand when they are casting it for how important of an ability it is. Otherwise it just looks like a dagger attack and its extremely hard to avoid. An example of this done well is CHURNING EARTH which doesnt even hit that hard(which to me is hilarious for the work you have to do to get it to hit compared to CnD). Stuff just doesnt FEEL like it has impact and things like cripple and immobilize are far too readily available to the point where it doesnt feel like you need to even think about when you use them.
Additionally stealth really just needs to have revealed go to 5 seconds and have the 1 second longer stealth trait reduce it to 4 seconds. Currently 3 seconds is not enough and allows for perma stealthing. Stealth is no fun to fight. It’s not specifically OP but it creates boring and frustrating situations. It is also TOO GOOD for how insanely available it is to use. Anet said, during pre-beta, they understand how powerful stealth was and that’s why they wanted SHORT DURATION stealthing as opposed to the more traditional permastealth prior to combat, come out of nowhere and nuke ur target. Well guess what we got….
Very poignant and well written reply.
feLIVEar: Your resident forum king.
I’d like to add that the lack of a VISIBLE ladder that players can go see where they rank against other players is a huge deterrent from keeping people playing. There is no sense of progression in sPvP and that creates a feeling that your games not only don’t matter, but that GW2 itself is emphasizing that your games don’t matter because it itself doesn’t keep track of them or care. Your glory rank is meaningless because it is about time spent, not about skill or games won. Its more about mercilessly killing baddies in hotjoin than your actual prowess in PvP.
We need a visible system of divisions / leagues / brackets whatever you want to call it and we need some manner of ELO / Points / Scaling so that a ladder can be established and used. You already have that wall of glory on the left side of the mists, let players go check their rankings on that. Easy enough right?
On top of everything we really need a real solo queue… its been said before, i’m saying it now, and i’m guaranteeing it will be said again.
I’d like to add that the lack of a VISIBLE ladder that players can go see where they rank against other players is a huge deterrent from keeping people playing. There is no sense of progression in sPvP and that creates a feeling that your games not only don’t matter, but that GW2 itself is emphasizing that your games don’t matter because it itself doesn’t keep track of them or care. Your glory rank is meaningless because it is about time spent, not about skill or games won. Its more about mercilessly killing baddies in hotjoin than your actual prowess in PvP.
We need a visible system of divisions / leagues / brackets whatever you want to call it and we need some manner of ELO / Points / Scaling so that a ladder can be established and used. You already have that wall of glory on the left side of the mists, let players go check their rankings on that. Easy enough right?
On top of everything we really need a real solo queue… its been said before, i’m saying it now, and i’m guaranteeing it will be said again.
Few issues i have with your wall of txt. But you do make a lot of good points of the bigger issues (need rank visable, better design in general on abilities weapons traits).
However like you said at the beginning ..we dont need multiple maps look at LoL, we also dont need more options for build paths, Look at lol. ..people can happily play the same champ with only 4 abilities and even now your item options are pretty strict to what you will have to buy everytime you play.
or even TF2, was a huge success even when all you had was 3 standard weapons, no choices on changing them out for others.
You can drown a game in options of things to choose before you enter a match all day long, and all it does it make the game messy, difficult to balance, and filled with bad decisions and nubtraps for new players to fall into.
Also most of the maps are TOO BIG. They want 5v5 play styles and you want it to be an esport right? What is funner, watching people travel around a big map, or watching people duke it out? The tighter the map, the more likely people run into each other and have to battle, this is what makes the game mode fun. Fighting other people.
The only point to having nodes to cap, is so people can fight over them, they realized this, and is why the last two maps objectives are close together.
Also, increasing the points to 1000 is pointless. Like you say later there are no big moments. This can be done through things like on temple of the storm, where you have a buff that spawns and forces people into one location for a big turn around moment. You can solve this problem through map design, not increasing numbers.
Also people have short attention spans and like you said, this game only has one phase unlike LoL. Its cap those points…end of story. So games dont need to be much longer, you could push it past 500 but it really wouldnt change much without big maps objectives that turn around the game like Baron (or the temple of the storm buff).
People are unhappy because of bad design, they wanna do certain things with their profession that it does not allow…or they simply suck or dont fit into the game mode.
And yes stealth is bad due to how accessible it is and how long it can lasts. Theifs will complain if you nerf it because they feel they need it. If they need it, thats a design flaw, they need buffed in other areas so they dont need it.
Anyway, these were my only problems. Also elites dont belong in this style of gameplay and should not be impactful, if they were anymore powerful they’d have to be on even longer CD"s and would be overly disruptive ..and you wouldnt get to use them often enough. This isnt LoL, they’re fine where they are if anything i think they should be less disruptive and on shorter cd’s.
(edited by Zinwrath.2049)
Also, i agree on the boon problem.
I also think that boons are the real problem with balance:
- They are very strong
- They are very easy to get
- They are impossible, for most classes, to remove.
Up Rerroll
I also think that boons are the real problem with balance:
- They are very strong
- They are very easy to get
- They are impossible, for most classes, to remove.
Which is why most successful strategys are built around stacking them or removing them forcing too much of the strategy to be built around it and locking out other styles of play. Toning down what some of them do (protection, stability, fury, retaliation i’m looking at you) and peoples access to them and durations is probably something to deeply consider.
in short i agree entirely.
I’d like to add that the lack of a VISIBLE ladder that players can go see where they rank against other players is a huge deterrent from keeping people playing. There is no sense of progression in sPvP and that creates a feeling that your games not only don’t matter, but that GW2 itself is emphasizing that your games don’t matter because it itself doesn’t keep track of them or care. Your glory rank is meaningless because it is about time spent, not about skill or games won. Its more about mercilessly killing baddies in hotjoin than your actual prowess in PvP.
We need a visible system of divisions / leagues / brackets whatever you want to call it and we need some manner of ELO / Points / Scaling so that a ladder can be established and used. You already have that wall of glory on the left side of the mists, let players go check their rankings on that. Easy enough right?
On top of everything we really need a real solo queue… its been said before, i’m saying it now, and i’m guaranteeing it will be said again.
Few issues i have with your wall of txt. But you do make a lot of good points of the bigger issues (need rank visable, better design in general on abilities weapons traits).
However like you said at the beginning ..we dont need multiple maps look at LoL, we also dont need more options for build paths, Look at lol. ..people can happily play the same champ with only 4 abilities and even now your item options are pretty strict to what you will have to buy everytime you play.
or even TF2, was a huge success even when all you had was 3 standard weapons, no choices on changing them out for others.
You can drown a game in options of things to choose before you enter a match all day long, and all it does it make the game messy, difficult to balance, and filled with bad decisions and nubtraps for new players to fall into.
Also most of the maps are TOO BIG. They want 5v5 play styles and you want it to be an esport right? What is funner, watching people travel around a big map, or watching people duke it out? The tighter the map, the more likely people run into each other and have to battle, this is what makes the game mode fun. Fighting other people.
The only point to having nodes to cap, is so people can fight over them, they realized this, and is why the last two maps objectives are close together.
Also, increasing the points to 1000 is pointless. Like you say later there are no big moments. This can be done through things like on temple of the storm, where you have a buff that spawns and forces people into one location for a big turn around moment. You can solve this problem through map design, not increasing numbers.
Also people have short attention spans and like you said, this game only has one phase unlike LoL. Its cap those points…end of story. So games dont need to be much longer, you could push it past 500 but it really wouldnt change much without big maps objectives that turn around the game like Baron (or the temple of the storm buff).
People are unhappy because of bad design, they wanna do certain things with their profession that it does not allow…or they simply suck or dont fit into the game mode.
And yes stealth is bad due to how accessible it is and how long it can lasts. Theifs will complain if you nerf it because they feel they need it. If they need it, thats a design flaw, they need buffed in other areas so they dont need it.
Anyway, these were my only problems. Also elites dont belong in this style of gameplay and should not be impactful, if they were anymore powerful they’d have to be on even longer CD"s and would be overly disruptive ..and you wouldnt get to use them often enough. This isnt LoL, they’re fine where they are if anything i think they should be less disruptive and on shorter cd’s.
About the BUILD roles… that isnt true. The specialization of a character in LOL comes from ITEMS and MASTERIES and RUNES. These things are like the GW2 traits so no people dont play with just 4 abilities but i do see where you’re coming from. One of the problems though is giving those options but having 90% of them just be crap, which is currently the case. If the options never existed but we had one REALLY concrete and polished build per class I feel people would be a lot more forgiving.
The customization (in lol) comes from different areas and has the potential to switch on a game by game basis, or sometimes even in the same game (swapping out items at end game). You also counter your enemies as you build items. If you are building the same thing every game that is more the player’s fault than the items systems since it’s pretty robust, especially now in S3
Also i don’t recall talking about elites at all. I’m just talking about CC mostly.
About the BUILD roles… that isnt true. The specialization of a character in LOL comes from ITEMS and MASTERIES and RUNES. These things are like the GW2 traits so no people dont play with just 4 abilities but i do see where you’re coming from. One of the problems though is giving those options but having 90% of them just be crap, which is currently the case. If the options never existed but we had one REALLY concrete and polished build per class I feel people would be a lot more forgiving.
The customization (in lol) comes from different areas and has the potential to switch on a game by game basis, or sometimes even in the same game (swapping out items at end game). You also counter your enemies as you build items. If you are building the same thing every game that is more the player’s fault than the items systems since it’s pretty robust, especially now in S3
Also i don’t recall talking about elites at all. I’m just talking about CC mostly.
Truthfully, if you ever type in the top players names and see what masterys and runes they’re running, you’ll notice very quickly that …well for one many of them only use a couple rune sets, but there isnt really that big diversity there.
Even though phreak (while i know he doesnt always say to do the best possible things) has a HORRIBLE pattern of suggesting the same things everytime. If its a ranged ad carry, he will suggest the same item paths same runes, same mast almost everytime. And he does this for all roles.
Infact (much like most pro runes) it goes something like “a typical AD champ” (marks armorpen or flat damage, seals flat armor, quint armorpen or flat damage, glyphs magic resist per level) It deviates from this very slightly…..sure you can build a rune set for a particular champion…but you will probably use that rune set for your champion 99.99% of the time.
Masterys are the same, (i use a 21-9-0 mastery build), Once again, even with s3 (which is a little more diverse than last season) you will see a lot of the same masterys chosen NOT JUST BUT PHREAK, look up the top played players, see what they’re using…its very cookie cutter.
Also phreak always says (use ignite flash, or if jungling smite and flash) The summoners dont change much either…..its 99% chance you’ll use flash on any champion (a couple can sacrifice for ghost, everyone else cant) and you’ll either be picking up ignite, or smite for jungle, or exhaust/heal for support…adc MIGHT get barrier or cleanse….and top MIGHT get teleport. Generally though, its the same despite the game having over 100 champions…across all champs.
Lets be honest though…runes only exist as an IP sink so you’ll buy IP boosters and buy champions….it is not needed at all. Any function you give them could be simply transfered over to masterys. (its redundant)
And items, sure theres a couple counter items you can pick up…depending on their team comp. But once again there will be core items you will ALWAYS want on your champion..usually making up 3-4 out of 6 items of your build. (items that your champ was balanced around)
So its not really as diverse as it claims to be…never has been, and while season 3 opened up some doors, its still gonna stabalize to a few items that you will always get on X champ or Y role.
But yea, LoL DOES feel different each time, because each team works differently together, and you get different champ combinations. And subtle item counters can happen (but you still gotta build your core items that your champ was balanced around). But the runes …honestly shouldnt even exist and 90% of them are worthless in ANY build and Masterys honestly do not need to exist either, but atleast serve a purpose other than filling their companys pocket books.
In that sense, you could actually remove sigils, runes, and amulets from spvp. (they are mostly nub traps anyway)
Calculate what each play style would need for each profession in each role (which is another problem gw2 conquest doesnt have as many defined roles as a game like LoL) and then you give a tab for each role. When you click that role, it automaticly gives you the exact most ideal stats, and most ideal abilities to perform that role with your profession.
you could have a system like this, and it would be no different than some pro putting up a stream saying “this is the bets combination of stats/runes/abilitys/sigils you need to win with this profession” and everyone copy pasting it….except now anyone can just log on choose a prof a role and go. The convoluted options are just there so nubs have a harder time accessing the game and pros can occasionally switch up whats the best thing everyone should be doing. Thats all it is
Thats all fine and good. Most of that I’d agree with
My problem, and the difference I see, is that the traits are integral parts of each professions that are directly linked to them. Runes and masteries are not in lol, they are a general pool.
While they both provide diversity the issue i take with GW2 is that im given all these options, which are presented to me as viable and as a little piece of my class. When a mastery is bad, you don’t use that mastery and it’s whatever because it isnt in keeping with the champion you choose.
When a trait or weapon /weapon skill is bad it’s a missing piece of your professions which brings down their effectiveness and diversity overall while not affecting ANY of professions. Masteries being global but EVERYONE at the same disadvantage if they are bad rather than just that one profession, therefore nullifying it.
(edited by Rump Buffalo.2594)
Thats all fine and good. Most of that I’d agree with
My problem, and the difference I see, is that the traits are integral parts of each professions that are directly linked to them. Runes and masteries are not in lol, they are a general pool.
While they both provide diversity the issue i take with GW2 is that im given all these options, which are presented to me as viable and as a little piece of my class. When a mastery is bad, you don’t use that mastery and it’s whatever because it isnt in keeping with the champion you choose.
When a trait or weapon /weapon skill is bad it’s a missing piece of your professions which brings down their effectiveness and diversity overall while not affecting ANY of professions. Masteries being global but EVERYONE at the same disadvantage if they are bad rather than just that one profession, therefore nullifying it.
exactly. Which is why i said to some degree you could get away without runes/sigils even amulets in this game. They are not profession specific, you simply grab what you think will boost your strength further towards whatever it is your trying to accomplish.
And ya i agree, when a trait or weapon skill is bad it can cut off a potential play style creating the lack of diversity within a profession. Which is why people scream for balance. They see a potential play style that is left untapped. Like all the engineers that desperatly want to build bunker with turrets…but the turrets have endless problems that make them not ideal in competitive play. Just like longbow for rangers isnt ideal…yet all of them want to use it.. you could do this with every profession and point out a weapon that doesnt fullfill its role, or a traitline or a type of utility.
Its definitly frusterating, I think if professions were atleast balanced across their profession (or atleast popular builds/play styles that everyone WANTS to do on their profession were not crappy options) people would be a lot happier.
The same game mode isnt necessarily the problem, look at LoL.
..
LoL is not an action mmo battleground pvp game. It is more like a strategy game. I can compare GW2 to monolopy and argue that we should be playing on a board since that game was such a success.
Lets compare apples with apples. GW2 spvp vs other MMOs with battlegrounds. In this comparision, GW2 wins in about every aspect except that it only has one game mode. I understand the logic of why the devs went this way (to develop it as an esport), but it is also the only reason I can think of that the spvp population is small (well apparently it is small, maybe its fine). As much as I love the game, the one game mode does get a bit monotonous.
I also supose it lacks a way to hold players in, to motivate them to continue. Other MMOs did this through the gear grind, I hear GW1 did this through a variety of systems that were not implemented in GW2 for some reason. For me the fun and thrill of combat is enough to hold me; slowly getting more skilled and experienced, meeting some people etc. But oh what a delight a new game mode would be.