Guild Wars 2

Hi all,

When the June patch first went live, we had a lot of fun with fast Power build. After a series of Power nerfs, and sustain buffs, now we’re back to the boring Bunker/Condi meta again.

It’s pretty sad. Time to Kill is too long. Please give us back the fun power meta!

Sunshine.5014:

After a series of Power nerfs, and sustain buffs

What buffs/nerfs, there were one or 2 out of control things, but those were not a large decrease in power?
People moved to sustain/bunkery because they don’t like being blown up instantly and condis allow you to still deal good damage.

It was a natural progression of the meta. Blame the fact that power is higher that more people play bunkery.

I dunno, I’m running a venomshare thief with Power, Condition Damage and Healing Power supported most by my gear, it still takes mere moments to kill me if an enemy can close the gap, but since I’m running on a knife’s edge in regards to survivability if I survive a few combat encounters in a row it feels a million times as long as when I trade a kill for a kill in a 2v1.

Though I might be supporting the old meta by not bringing any condition cleanses and having a team focused heal skill.

agreed. but it seems to be going towards even more bunkerish meta. scrapper is pretty much unkillable with massive amounts of bonus toughness, ridiculous healing (kit+swiftness+superspeed+regen+HT+endless blasts and leaps in endless waterfields), prot etc. and chrono mesmer is just basicly in perma state of block/evasion with all that alacrity and f5 + crazy amounts of healing/condi cleanse. and you have your unkillable d/d ele thats not going away any time soon.

its going to get worse before it gets better. its gonna be scrappers, eles and chrono teams only with matches ending like 90-70 after time runs out.

It is the era of condition wars. I feel bad for the melee classes the most.

We all miss it man. This has been the most boring meta to date.

Actually the dps still exixt.
Guardians can deal really high dps with direct damage more than with burn. Burn is more a burst build, but the direct damage is still efficent as always and grant so much better damage in time. (expecially in spvp where every build have some condi clean skills).

Thief can deal insane damage if the player know how to not be killed istant.

Mesmer can do a really insane damage by a really long range using berserker why, if is a good player, there’s so much skills to save it’s kitten that a mesmer can survive to everything or flee from everything still in a berserker build, dealing really insane damage.

Ranger pewpew can deal really high damage by range. (but need to know how save himself when attacked)

Necromancer can inflict a really high dps while in DS or with Dagger (with no defensive skills and DS that is it’s better offensive and defensive skill at once, making it “weak”, but some builds can reduce that problem)

Actually the only classes/builds that play bunker is: Necro MM, Guardian Bunker, Engi Soldier/Celestial, Ele Cleric/Celestial. All the other professions/builds play in dps or at last hybrid or with lowbunker stats like valkyrie (necro?), Knight, Cavalier and more, depending on the build.

Actually 6/8 of the classes play at 80-100% in dps with direct damage and sometimes with hybrid or condition damage.
And they’re not really bunkers or defensive classes/builds.

There’s for every class a lot of skills that grant a chance to play as a dps (direct or condi) and more or less everyone want to play as a damage dealer more than as a bunker, expecially with immunity/block/evade skills.

The only class that is totally witout a real defensive skill is the Necromancer but I alqays see a lot of them with dps builds play really well and make it’s part in the fight, killing a lot and surviving a lot. (they die quickly if focused but they can still do they’r role).

I don’t see all that bunkers in the game.

There will always be a bunker in a good party to help the team, healing and ressing allies, but almost all the others can be dps or hybrids.

Let’s also not forget that herald can can hold a point in a 1v2 with full marauder just by cycling through evades, infuse light, and crystalline hibernation. I’ve only really been able to break it with reaper, but only due to unblock able CC and boon corruption. Other burst classes struggle to take it down in a reasonable time fram.

I really don’t miss it. I don’t want the game to be decided by who pushed A first.

People always complain about the current meta & idolize rose tinted memories of old metas.

choovanski.5462:

People always complain about the current meta & idolize rose tinted memories of old metas.

Funny, since I the June meta was the one people loved the most. The return back to Bunker/Condi is terrible.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/I-LOVE-this-patch/first#post5203602
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Who-actually-enjoys-this-meta/first
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/I-feel-PvP-is-a-lot-more-fun/first#post5224308
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/I-m-actually-kinda-enjoying-this-patch

Silv.9207:

Actually the dps still exixt.
Guardians can deal really high dps with direct damage more than with burn. Burn is more a burst build, but the direct damage is still efficent as always and grant so much better damage in time. (expecially in spvp where every build have some condi clean skills).

Thief can deal insane damage if the player know how to not be killed istant.

Mesmer can do a really insane damage by a really long range using berserker why, if is a good player, there’s so much skills to save it’s kitten that a mesmer can survive to everything or flee from everything still in a berserker build, dealing really insane damage.

Ranger pewpew can deal really high damage by range. (but need to know how save himself when attacked)

Necromancer can inflict a really high dps while in DS or with Dagger (with no defensive skills and DS that is it’s better offensive and defensive skill at once, making it “weak”, but some builds can reduce that problem)

Actually the only classes/builds that play bunker is: Necro MM, Guardian Bunker, Engi Soldier/Celestial, Ele Cleric/Celestial. All the other professions/builds play in dps or at last hybrid or with lowbunker stats like valkyrie (necro?), Knight, Cavalier and more, depending on the build.

Actually 6/8 of the classes play at 80-100% in dps with direct damage and sometimes with hybrid or condition damage.
And they’re not really bunkers or defensive classes/builds.

There’s for every class a lot of skills that grant a chance to play as a dps (direct or condi) and more or less everyone want to play as a damage dealer more than as a bunker, expecially with immunity/block/evade skills.

The only class that is totally witout a real defensive skill is the Necromancer but I alqays see a lot of them with dps builds play really well and make it’s part in the fight, killing a lot and surviving a lot. (they die quickly if focused but they can still do they’r role).

I don’t see all that bunkers in the game.

There will always be a bunker in a good party to help the team, healing and ressing allies, but almost all the others can be dps or hybrids.

You forgot maradeur engi which have a good survivability and a great damage …

A power/burst meta NEVER lasts after a big patch. The reason there was a power meta for a while was because:

1. Thieves were qq-ing that they weren’t powerful enough and playing other classes in protest (this lasted a couple week).
2. People hadn’t figured out how insane mesmer burst had become + PU stealth being insane.

When the thieves are away, the burst builds come to play.

Gradually good thieves realized they were still amazing when played right and, combined with mesmers, started forcing everyone else to bunker up b/c they get tired of being insta-downed from stealth without any way to counterplay.

To add to it, the sustain capabilities were buffed for many classes, and build gravitated in the directions they were buffed. Warriors, for instance, stayed with marauder builds b/c they were given 2x endure pain, and hard mitigation like that favors dps builds. Mesmers were given PU and blind on shatter, so stayed zerker. Eles were given a little more heal scaling on Evasive Arcana, so gravitated even more into the celestial/bruiser style. The list goes on.

At the end of the day, every class gravitates towards the builds that allows them to get the most sustain/support vs. damage ratio.

kitten Blackbeard how can you hate lootbag’s so much, we give out all kinds of shiny…

Sunshine.5014:

Bunker/Condi meta again.

Bunker/Burning meta rather.

Also, I imagine certain professions like power/zerker meta very much because they were created for that and have tools at their disposal to play in such state, but other professions which have to face them – not so much.

The majority of skills are the same as they were on the 23rd.

Conditions are still stronger than they were.

The temporary burst meta only existed because everyone was playing glass whilst they tried new builds.

Highlie.7641:

kitten Blackbeard how can you hate lootbag’s so much, we give out all kinds of shiny…

I am guessing you are talking about thieves given post history…? I don’t actually hate thieves, I just recognize they play a pivotal effect in shaping the meta by squashing all kinds of build diversity. There currently isn’t a whole lot of counterplay to stealth bursts atm besides just building tanky and having enough sustain to continually recover, and that is what everyone who isn’t playing a stealth-burst class has done.

I think the meta is pretty balanced right now, as every class has builds that are viable good. Maybe ranger could use a little of help, but they are so close. There is also some variety in terms of team comps and builds. When I look at enemy teams pre-match to tweak my build, I can’t know ahead of time if their mesmers, engies, rangers, guards, necros, or even warriors are playing condi or power. At a high level you can build your team to have bunker/pain train (guard + thief + mes + 2 bruiser), 4x bruiser + thief, or maybe even something else (although you usually see the first two). Even eles are closer to balanced when compared to other bruiser builds, although the shift away from 2x ele hasn’t quite completed.

HoT will shake everything up, and I have a feeling you will see the same cycle. People will stop playing thief b/c daredevils is pretty meh. Everyone will experiment with burst builds before realizing chronomancers wreck their face quite easily. Thieves will come back with d/p and keep their same place, or maybe daredevils will reclaim the old “dodge everything, port-in and out, rely on air/fire procs” playstyle of the old s/d thief. Everyone else will sort out into bruiser and bunker builds.

The ammount of power never disapeared. Few classes was nerfed in their one-shots, if I’m not mistaken the absurd conditions where introduced at the same time so nothing has changed except for us players, we adapted. We stopped running Zerker only, people realized that you can now do good damage and still be tanky with condition builds and more. I was one of them whining alot efter that update becouse I didn’t like the “first shot wins” rule but that was mostly becous both me and my oponents where zerkers. Now I laugh at zerkers when they try to one-shot me and they notice I don’t die and then I do 2-4 chops and they are down, mwoohaha.

In a game where it is “first shot wins”, that game has no skill at all.
In a game where you effectively have to use all your skills in right time and plan your fight, that is skill.

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

In a game where it is “first shot wins”, that game has no skill at all.

Uhm… pedantic, so almost all the FPS Esport games should be considered no skill.

In fact, if people can kill another one in less than 10s, it should be no skill too, right?

You do know there’s more to power vs power than ‘press 1 faster and win’, right? GW2 as a whole was based on that concept. No one is a healer. No one is a tank. No one is a debuffer. Everyone is a bit of everything.

I personally refuse to play condi builds because they’re boring, and seeing them take my power-specs’ job is saddening and infuriating. I occasionally dabble in burn guard when condi builds annoy me beyond belief but honestly it just bores me to tears.

Bottom line is, direct damage vs direct damage is always more fun than rot vs bunker. Also, there’s a big line between ‘lol 360 noscope’d get gud nub’ and ‘who wins in a fight between 2 druids? server restart.’ We don’t want either. We want fights where 7-15 hits is enough to bring someone down, and hp / invis / blocks / heals / etc. actually end in a reasonable time. They do for my medi-guardian (which I consider the golden standard of what a good power spec should be like). I simply hope more specs will become more like it, and less like bunker / necro (op) / mesmer (annoying) / current state of thief / condi engie / ele / burn guard.

Sunshine.5014:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

In a game where it is “first shot wins”, that game has no skill at all.

Uhm… pedantic, so almost all the FPS Esport games should be considered no skill.

In fact, if people can kill another one in less than 10s, it should be no skill too, right?

Well ofc it depends what game you are playing and what you do but let’s say.

An FPS: It is about location and precision of the player and more. I myself do not like most FPS games just becouse it is one shot kill but as for FPS game I do not say it is no skill.

In GW2: A thief or a Mesmer (Pre nerf) stays hidden and when someone shows up they initiate a well practiced a well trained face plant on the keyboard and !!! WHACK !!! your oponent is dead. That is no skill.

In GW2: Everyone plays zerker, One engineer with pistol (this is not possible) stands at a ledge and shoots his auto-attack and kills everyone who passes by, the only thing required for this engineer is activating AA and swtich target and enemies goes down in 1-3 shots. No skill. But on the other hand, a Guardian noticed the Enginner and knows he can’t reach the engineer without getting shot, he starts to rush the engineer and uses Shield of Wrath, Protector’s Strike, Shelter and then Judge’s Intervention to get to the engineer and that is skill. That is what I am talking about, using your skills to win, but most classes does not have blocks and reflects till the end of days.

So in the end what I mean is that in a game where killing eachother just needs one or two hits is more luck that skillfull play, atleast in a game like Guild Wars 2.

Edit:

Erindriel.2351:

You do know there’s more to power vs power than ‘press 1 faster and win’, right? GW2 as a whole was based on that concept. No one is a healer. No one is a tank. No one is a debuffer. Everyone is a bit of everything.

I personally refuse to play condi builds because they’re boring, and seeing them take my power-specs’ job is saddening and infuriating. I occasionally dabble in burn guard when condi builds annoy me beyond belief but honestly it just bores me to tears.

Bottom line is, direct damage vs direct damage is always more fun than rot vs bunker. Also, there’s a big line between ‘lol 360 noscope’d get gud nub’ and ‘who wins in a fight between 2 druids? server restart.’ We don’t want either. We want fights where 7-15 hits is enough to bring someone down, and hp / invis / blocks / heals / etc. actually end in a reasonable time. They do for my medi-guardian (which I consider the golden standard of what a good power spec should be like). I simply hope more specs will become more like it, and less like bunker / necro (op) / mesmer (annoying) / current state of thief / condi engie / ele / burn guard.

Even though from what I just wrote I agree to the fullest with this.

There is more outplay involved in marauder/zerker metas. It’s a much faster pace of fighting which many people in this game have a hard time playing in. Not many people like to hold on to their dodges, their blinds, blocks, or pay attention to the other player and love spamming their animations. (funny spamming animations on condi class works pretty well LOL)

Condi = very low outplay, very low skill involved (using skills 1-5 practically or just auto attacking on SB ranger lololol relying on condi procs, losing after applying condis running around circles and kiting, inflicting perma weakness cuz ur a celenecro lolkewl)

Not to mention if we’re talking about classes having tools to deal with zerk/mar meta’s better than another class, then please remind us of cele necro, and the passive condi xfer, staff 4, and application of condis as well.

A lot of people will defend this meta because the game has been slowed down enough for many to comprehend. With a bunker/condi meta such as this, no one really has to think, especially with the amount of passives.

Whether on mar/condi…etc your passives almost play the game for you more than you do, and with a condi build you can put very low effort into any fight, and you can sustain very well on many classes (cele necro, cele elixir engi, settlers ranger, etcetcetc).

But yeah, as the dev said on the unveiling of ranger, “we don’t want a zerker meta” or something along those lines, so expect condi/bunker to be here for another year at least.

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

Sunshine.5014:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

In a game where it is “first shot wins”, that game has no skill at all.

Uhm… pedantic, so almost all the FPS Esport games should be considered no skill.

In fact, if people can kill another one in less than 10s, it should be no skill too, right?

In GW2: A thief or a Mesmer (Pre nerf) stays hidden and when someone shows up they initiate a well practiced a well trained face plant on the keyboard and !!! WHACK !!! your oponent is dead. That is no skill.

It seems to me what you’re opposed is bursts from stealth, which I wholeheartedly agree. However, that’s not the fault of Power meta. Nerf the stealth bursts, not Power meta.

If two players run into each other and fight for 60s without anyone dying, that’s pretty stale. Imagine two heroes in League of Legends fighting for 60s without dying, people gonna switch off the stream.

Time to kill for a 1v1 should be max 60s. For a 2v1 should be max 30s. For a 3v1 should be max 10s (basically pops all the invul/dodges and die instantly after that). Sustain for all classes need to be nerfed.

When people complained two month ago about the power meta… #Forums

Sunshine.5014:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

Sunshine.5014:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

In a game where it is “first shot wins”, that game has no skill at all.

Uhm… pedantic, so almost all the FPS Esport games should be considered no skill.

In fact, if people can kill another one in less than 10s, it should be no skill too, right?

In GW2: A thief or a Mesmer (Pre nerf) stays hidden and when someone shows up they initiate a well practiced a well trained face plant on the keyboard and !!! WHACK !!! your oponent is dead. That is no skill.

It seems to me what you’re opposed is bursts from stealth, which I wholeheartedly agree. However, that’s not the fault of Power meta. Nerf the stealth bursts, not Power meta.

If two players run into each other and fight for 60s without anyone dying, that’s pretty stale. Imagine two heroes in League of Legends fighting for 60s without dying, people gonna switch off the stream.

Time to kill for a 1v1 should be max 60s. For a 2v1 should be max 30s. For a 3v1 should be max 10s (basically pops all the invul/dodges and die instantly after that). Sustain for all classes need to be nerfed.

Sustain shouldn’t be nerfed alot. The problem is that everything is just in extremes. If two bunker builds fight each other, they will fight forever. That fight will not be won by anyone. The other side of the extremes is two burst builds. It’s over in literally one ability. Whoever hits with his first ability won. Even if the target isn’t down just yet, he is so far behind and probably stunned/blinden/immobilized/all of them… that he cannot catch up and get back into the fight.

The extremes in this game have to become more moderate. A bunker should survive less but also deal more damage. A damage dealer should survive much more, but deal less damage.

30% less/more in both ranges. Suddenly a 10k burst from one power dd vs. another power dd becomes a 4k burst. That will still hurt alot, but it gives you an opportunity to fight back.

On the same time 30% less defense on the bunkers means that bunker vs. power will remain practically the same as it is right now, while bunker vs. bunker suddenly shift towards 60% more incomming damage from enemy bunker builds which may cause those fights to actually end at some point.

What do you expect. They buffed the celestial amulet after the june patch. They tried to nerf it but got the math wrong. Tells you all you need to know if you are waiting for this game to become competitive

Conditions are completely unfun.. that’s all you see now. Full teams of nothing but aoe spamming conditions with the cheesiest builts available… wrecking teams that can’t do the same in return.

Damage wasn’t really nerfed, except for mesmers and eles (that were over the top). It’s just that people moved from zerker builds to marauder builds, then to bruisers. I only ever play marauder builds, but I like that other players play 1v1-focused bruiser builds or even full support builds: it brings variety in team composition and in combat dynamics. Everyone running zerker is no more fun than everyone running bruisers.

LOL, as predicted once the Meta settles people whine. Don’t you guys get it? There was never going to be a perpetual Clusterkitten of builds as there was on June patch drop. That was just the natural response to a system overhaul.

And people called the Cele Meta the most boring, yet here we are with people calling this the most boring. Hyperbole sprinkled on your hyperbole soup.

For the record I hate the current Condi side of the meta but, I was under no delusion it would get here when June Patch dropped, and I said as much months ago. This is really easy to see if you even have an inkling of foresight.

Meta this and meta that. I miss the times when the word ’’meta’’ didn’t exist. It sound so stupid and is invented by 12 year old leauge of legends kids.

Terimac.5871:

Meta this and meta that. I miss the times when the word ’’meta’’ didn’t exist. It sound so stupid and is invented by 12 year old leauge of legends kids.

Really? I doubt such a young lad could conceive a term like this. Most likely, it comes from a pseudo-sociologist drunk with lingo.

I’ve been pretty happy continuing to play Marauder power (as Necro), myself. I down enemies and/or get downed reasonably quickly, and run over .500 win rate.

Though I do have my doubts when Chronomancers come in. Holding final decision after more practice, but it seems like they spend more time invulnerable than being able to take damage.

Seems like most of the people happy with current meta play necros.

Like, at least 9/10.

I made a reaper during beta weekend. It made me bitter about my warrior / (power) guardian being at least 200% less faceroll-friendly.

Erindriel.2351:

Seems like most of the people happy with current meta play necros.

Like, at least 9/10.

I made a reaper during beta weekend. It made me bitter about my warrior / (power) guardian being at least 200% less faceroll-friendly.

I’m talking about vanilla Necro, to be clear.

Besides, I take exception to complaining about lack of facerolling on Warrior. Rampage was ultra easy mode for a long time, and even now is about the same, just with worse up-time.

Weird, because the whole fast-paced “meta” was killed off by anet’s balancing mostly due to these forums whining about it.

kolompi.1287:

Weird, because the whole fast-paced “meta” was killed off by anet’s balancing mostly due to these forums whining about it.

Really? I see a few needed nerfs after 23rd. The power is still there. People just choose not to die instantly.

kolompi.1287:

Weird, because the whole fast-paced “meta” was killed off by anet’s balancing mostly due to these forums whining about it.

only dead forums don’t complain

ITT: People who like to use the word meta as if its a static thing that changes only right after a patch or something.

The meta evolves and changes as people realize what is going on in the game and react to what others are doing.
The reason bunker builds are being played more is BECAUSE power got such a huge buff in the last patch. Everyone tried their professions version of glass cannon when the patch hit and just as quickly realized that not much had changed. Mes/Teef are still the kings of zerker burst and Mes especially holds down other glass cannon professions/builds.
So what do you do as the non Mes/Teef when you see glass cannon zerker not working? You build bunker and see if that works. Its really not that hard to grasp.

displacedTitan.6897:

Mesmers go burst…

There is a reason for that and that is because our alternatives are useless
Condition mesmer is a gimmick build which can counter some things but it still takes
too long to be worth it your team get overrun before you build up enough condis…
PS condi mesmer is not played in ESL for a reason too.
There is no such thing as a tanky mesmer thats why we have to use marauder.
Its a limitation not an advantage.
Also since everyone love to bring up our mobility is OP
It really is the slowest class in the game except for guardian now you know.

Sorel.4870:

Terimac.5871:

Meta this and meta that. I miss the times when the word ’’meta’’ didn’t exist. It sound so stupid and is invented by 12 year old leauge of legends kids.

Really? I doubt such a young lad could conceive a term like this. Most likely, it comes from a pseudo-sociologist drunk with lingo.

It always amuses me when people say such stupid ignorant things like this. Nice to know that people assume Nigel Howard is a “pseudo-sociologist drunk with lingo.” It’s also interesting that Terimac is old enough to remember the days before ancient Greeks.