Guild Wars 2

I’ve given GW2 the benefit of the doubt for awhile and gave sPvP here a fair chance before commenting on things, but lately I find myself missing GW1 style PvP more and more.

You guys set the bar with GW1, and because of that I really feel that as a customer, it was obviously part of our expectations to see some form of GW1 style PvP with some improvements if anything. But I’m pretty disappointed that PvP is going in a completely different direction leaving GW1 players out of luck.

Let me get one thing out of the way – I LOVE the combat of GW2, I have fun on every class. But I feel the current features for PvP are overshadowing the combat at the moment. I honestly think if you took the exact arena system from GW1 and put it in to this game, even if you just straight copy and pasted the old arenas, and kept the classes exactly the same as they are in GW2 right now, PvP would be in a far better place than it is right now.

My first problem: The amount of viable builds is severely limited by the game mode. I’ve watched the developer interviews etc, and I know Jon knows the game well (that’s one reason I have faith in GW2 going in to the future – you can tell he actually plays the game and knows the game well) but due to the nature of the mode, bunkers and roamers will always be a very important part of the metagame, and this naturally restricts build variety since you have to make sure you build around those requirements. This seems to be intended, and that’s the part that makes me worried.

I understand the game design theory from a competitive viewpoint where there is more mechanics the team has to cover to make it skill based. Since I seen Jon give a LoL example in one of the discussions on youtube so I’m going to give a similar example – warding is a good example of a similar game mechanic that players need to take advantage or fall behind the skill curve. But the difference is that warding does not limit the skill/ability builds of players, while having to include bunkers/roamers on your team does. Imagine you had to give up a number of abilities in order to build your team to be able to ward or else you lose? That’s the currrent state we’re in at the moment…

As a player I personally spend just as much (probably more time) researching builds and trying to optimize builds – the first thing I did at max level was unlock 3 char slots so I could have a character of EVERY class to experiement on builds – but I feel very limited at the moment. For some classes it’s downright frustrating, both when coming up with a full team build or a solo build for hotjoin/free. And it’s not just the skill balance, it’s due to the above discussed issues with the mode. Even with perfect skill/ability balance you will still need to avoid outnumbered fights as a roamer, and defending the control points will be integral to the game, and that’s restrictive.

I really hope when custom arenas are added, we at least have an “option” of a mode without control points. Just test the waters and see how it goes. I’m pretty confident it will be far more popular than control points if you give it a fair chance. Even if you do it on these same maps (or restrict a few that may cause probs, such as capricorn). I really think it would be for the best of the game.

(to be continued…)

Having this mode as an option is probably my biggest wish for the game right now! I just hope it’s not too late with tournaments being so focused on control point mode atm.

That brings me to my next problem: Hotjoin PvP is in a very bad state. In GW1 the random arenas were awesome and one of my favorite parts of the game. It had a huge playerbase, pretty much instant queue times. Teams always had equal amounts of players. And if you did great and got 10 consecutive wins it threw you in to competitive areans. Some of my fondest memories were being with random PvP teams and racking up dozens of wins in competitive arena, and making new friends I PvPed with reguarly in to the future. The closest thing here is free tournaments, but that’s nowhere near as much enjoyment, and with just 3 matches that’s not enough of a “bond” to want to stay in touch long. And even with successful free tournament players that you try queuing up with again, I haven’t had continued success in multiple tournaments in a row due to no matching.

Hotjoin in comparison is a nightmare. The 8v8 focus makes zergs so prominent – if you want to do good you need to spend more time avoiding the zerg and ninja’ing than you do fighting. Team balance is a nightmare – most of the time teams are not equal with people joining and leaving, with autobalance further messing things up. It’s also frustrating to try to play with friends in this mode, having to switch teams to be on the same team and then getting autobalanced back to the other. Plus the loss of points used to unlock skills/gear for alternative classes makes progression lacking in comparison to GW1 (especailly when the free tournament gear looks better than the majority of rank gear).

Next on to free tournaments, these are in a bad state as well. On the bright side at least the teams have equal numbers of players like GW1 arenas, but without separating “random” from “competitive” arenas like GW1, you find many more imbalanced games. And the earlier mentioned build issues have problems – you run in to nearly all bunkers or roamers. Progression is again another issue here – without the points to unlock skills/gear it doesn’t feel like you are really earning anything. This might sound like a minor issue, but it’s huge. It’s one of the big things that kept GW1 players playing, as well as other genres. FPS’s, LoL, etc… earning points for unlocks it’s one of the big things that keeps players playing. And the ranked gear system here doesn’t cut it.

And paid tournaments… honestly I can’t comment on them too much. Because the hugest problem is the player base. Noone plays them. All my PvP friends quit the game, the mists is pretty slow on my server, and the only players that I’ve grouped with from guilds tended to be new players trying to make things work who have gave up soon after.

All these things really make me miss GW1 PvP. And the sad part is they are all pretty basic features that could be easily implemented. GW1 arenas weren’t very complex and basic in mechanics, but solved so many of the problems that GW2 is having right now.

Right now I feel like I’m in a position where I can’t go back to GW1 because the combat system here is so improved and GW1 feels limiting in that aspect, but GW2 is in a completely different direction that’s nowhere near as enjoyable.

To sum things up…. Every time I’ve played lately it keeps going through my mind that “I just wish I could have a real fight with the enemy team, with equal numbers of players on each team, and prove who the better players with the most well thought out builds and better fighters are”. That was the theme of GW1, but in GW2 that’s not possible right now. Now you could be the best fighters in the game with an amazing combative focused build, but it’s more about defending points, coordinating on multiple fronts, splitting up to attack multiple fronts, and avoiding outnumbered skirmishes. To me, that’s more of a “sport” than a “fight”. GW1 was a fight. That’s what I miss.

I hope to see GW1 style PvP in the future… That was my one expectation and hope going in to the game from my experience with GW1, and is still my one wish going in to the future of this game… I’m pretty sure I’m not alone…

Why can’t we have both the GW1 and the GW2 styles in the same game?

atheria.2837:

Why can’t we have both the GW1 and the GW2 styles in the same game?

I agree with this.

I’m not sure if I gave the impression that I would prefer GW1 PvP instead of the current style, but if so I apologize.

I have no problem with having the current mode as an option, I just hope that GW1 style will also be an option someday.

It really is a shame that GW2 is lacking the style of PvP that GW1 was known for, when that is what so many of us bought the game for and expected with the game being a sequel. I feel slightly betrayed as a fan of GW1, but still have hope due to how much work they are putting in post-release!

Please don’t forget about your core PvP audience from the first game in the series!

You aren’t alone. I, too, am disappointed with the current system, and find myself missing GW1 PvP more and more. Random arenas was great. Equal teams and no capture points to distract from the pure combat experience. I have many, many fond memories of going in there, and the GW2 system of sitting around at nodes capping them feels very lacking.

Drop the stupid tournament system already. It’s killing your game’s PvP, Anet.

Rahar.9872:

You aren’t alone. I, too, am disappointed with the current system, and find myself missing GW1 PvP more and more. Random arenas was great. Equal teams and no capture points to distract from the pure combat experience. I have many, many fond memories of going in there, and the GW2 system of sitting around at nodes capping them feels very lacking.

Drop the stupid tournament system already. It’s killing your game’s PvP, Anet.

Well, I wouldn’t have a problem with the tournament system if it was alongside the original GW1 system…

But in it’s current form, it attempts to be a replacement for the GW1 system, and it honestly is not working anywhere near as well as the original system did.

I like the idea of being able to do tournaments, and it will be nice once the tournaments have some ranking for competitive reasons. But in my opinion, they should be for “premade teams only” (randoms just dont work good in there), and long-term once the ESports features and rankings are added they could be a better place to go after they progress through competitive arenas.

But they really shouldn’t be a “replacement” of the random and competitive arenas. Those GW1 features were an amazing baseline for PvP. Tournaments could be AWESOME beside them for the ranked competitive gameplay. We need the base PvP experience to be fun before competitive PvP could be successful though!

I just hope they heard us pleading for the original GW1 PvP. Give us the GW1 PvP experience that was so awesome and then let the ranked tournaments ENHANCE the experience!

GW1 PvP was considered the best MMO PvP out there by so many people for a reason!

I never played Guild Wars 1 before, so i have no input on “how it used to be”, but i agree with what everyone is saying about the current PvP system. I came in Guild Wars 2 because of all the recommendations my friends said to me. I got this game during the head start week and got to 80 in about 3 – 5 days and i went straight to SPvP right after.

It was fun at first, but as the week goes by I notice that nobody really like to defends the capture point and just farm kills instead, which kinda defeats the purpose of the capture the point system. The SPvP slowly became a deathmatch where everyone runs to the next cap point, kill, cap and on to the next one. This kinda got silly so i just stop PvPing completely after i hit glory lvl 20.

Unless they do something to the current system, i might just drop the game completely. I bought this game for the PvP aspect not the PvE and im sorta disappointed on how it turn out.

Perhaps if they would add shield bash, bull strike, guardian, skull strike, savage shot, cripshot.

It took them 5 years to come up with this. Current Anet employees have no skill nor talent to make anything similar to GW1 any more, which is quite sad.

I agree with you, this game is so different to be enjoyable for a lot of Gw1 pvper. But you have to understand that GW 2 will get closer to GW1, because the basics mechanics are not the same ( trinity, teamplay, buildwars..). Adding modes like RA/GvG/Ha wont change anything.

Here is a good topic about it : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Lost-potential/first

And this one too (that’s mine :p ) : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/That-s-not-Guild-wars-PVP/first#post196424

Menzies The Heretic.3415:

Perhaps if they would add shield bash, bull strike, guardian, skull strike, savage shot, cripshot.

Don’t forget Power Block, Pd, diversion, shame..

Rezz.8019:

It took them 5 years to come up with this. Current Anet employees have no skill nor talent to make anything similar to GW1 any more, which is quite sad.

Thats not very nice to say, as it requires quite some talent to make a game like GW2
Hence the "best of " websites ratings.

For someone who has never played GW1, how was its PvP?

Menzies The Heretic.3415:

Rezz.8019:

It took them 5 years to come up with this. Current Anet employees have no skill nor talent to make anything similar to GW1 any more, which is quite sad.

Thats not very nice to say, as it requires quite some talent to make a game like GW2
Hence the "best of " websites ratings.

Sorry, since this is a PvP section I was talking about PvP. But yeah PvE part of the game is all pretty and cool.

i didnt read the thread but just for the title i agree with you.

brunohstein.9038:

For someone who has never played GW1, how was its PvP?

the best pvp in years. really. try this , didnt see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0tp9gf1Bdo

Shukran.4851:

brunohstein.9038:

For someone who has never played GW1, how was its PvP?

the best pvp in years. really. try this , didnt see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0tp9gf1Bdo

Awesome to see the spikes being catched by the monks. Missing that.

Just continue bumping this post, waiting jonathan sharp reply. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Spvp-destiny-A-message-for-Jonathan-Sharp/first#post1138927

Menzies The Heretic.3415:

Shukran.4851:

brunohstein.9038:

For someone who has never played GW1, how was its PvP?

the best pvp in years. really. try this , didnt see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0tp9gf1Bdo

Awesome to see the spikes being catched by the monks. Missing that.

Yup, and that’s only GvG. HA was also amazing.

Seis.4091:

But you have to understand that GW 2 will get closer to GW1, because the basics mechanics are not the same ( trinity, teamplay, buildwars..). Adding modes like RA/GvG/Ha wont change anything.

I disagree.

The removal of trinity will make things different, but not necessarily worse. Biggest change obviously is no monks, but people are more self sufficient now, which will switch up the metagame a bit, but not neccessarily mean worse fights. The combat itself would/does need some more balancing, but in no way do I see it as the weak part of the game. Some of this will be an improvement as well. For example, many people are upset about downed state, but downed state has positives such as not forcing nearly evereyone to bring a res with them. Problem is this tactic has a strange place in the game when you are not necessarily focusing on killing the other player, but instead winning the control points, this makes silly scenarios where it’s better to leave them alive if possible and just toss an AoE under them unless someone is able to res them.

The metagame and strategy would be way different in a “to the death” game mode, the current mode is just holding the combat of the game back from its potential by focusing everyone on a handful of roles, rather than letting us come up with OUR OWN roles the way GW1’s PvP modes did. That’s why the metagame is so stale, and it will be for the forseeable future, since even with perfect skill balance, these handful of roles symbolize what the control points mode is about, which is NOT necessarily combat. We need a combat focused game mode if we want to be able to fully judge the combat for PvP.

Teamplay I feel would be a lot more obvious in another game mode. It’s just not too apparent in the current capture point mode, because this mode simply is not a “fight”. Teamplay in this mode means constantly evaluating the battlefield, avoiding the outnumbered fights, constantly moving to the weaker control points, etc. As you can tell from the majority of games, most players would prefer to fight and don’t want to run around capping points or avoiding the larger group all game. Also the ways you could contribute to the game are restricted right now. You could bunker, you could roam, you could build to counter bunkers or roamers, you could build stability to finish or res, but that’s it if you really want to contribute the most to your team in this game mode.

Take this example. Lets say the balance was different. Even if bunkers were weaker and spikes were stronger, it would still not be ideal to have a fight, it would be more ideal to have a fight at a contested control point. Lets say you win a fight, it would be more beneficial to both hold this point and try to take another point. This means some form of defensive/bunker spec will be best to try to hold it, and a roamer would still be best to at least scout the map and initiate a fight at a new location. These things will not change. The only difference would be is the spike builds would become the roamers and they can best gain points for their team by finding a fight where they outnumber the opponent, spiking the enemy down, and taking the control point.

And Buildwars… The skill system is new and does need some work, but this is another issue that is being held back by the game mode. I’ve played with so many builds, played every class in gw2, and there are so many great builds that just don’t work (again) because of the mode. You can’t build up to “fight” right now. You can only build to try to contribute to the control point mode (which means settling in to one of the roles mentioned already) or you can build to try to counter the prominent builds. Aside from that, you aren’t really contributing to your team. And as time goes by and more people have switched to these style builds, the amount of viable builds have went down. Near release a Guardian Spike build was one of the best builds in the game, but nowdays those builds don’t work. You aren’t going to be able to spike down anyone who is bunker spec. You aren’t mobile enough to be a very good roamer. You would be better off doing what the class is good at in the game mode….

(continued…)

Going again with that example, Guardians would have so many good builds if the game was about “fighting” instead. Spirit weapons would be amazing, since they don’t take damage. I’ve even experimented once with a spike build completely based around ranged DPS and kiting, which would have AMAZING potential, if it was a fight to the death. Their signet builds would be much stronger too. And one of their biggest changes, their area denial would open up many strategies that aren’t viable atm. Now area denial is best to keep them off the control point, but think if it was a GW1 arena with those moves? Think of a condition based team spec and the damage you can do while they are locked out? Think of an targeted AoE team spec and trapping them inside it? You can try to build for these right now, but they would be kitten since you still need to focus your team on winning the control point battle. The only time you can win when it’s not a control point battle is if you zerg around as one group and the enemies are dumb enough to run in to you over and over.

Basically, all the problems you named would be much less of a problem if we had GW1 style modes. It’s just not obvious right now because people aren’t building to win a fight, they are building to control points.

I always felt like gw 2 is game where they focus more on pve than pvp..

i more or less agree with the OP. every time im guarding an uncontested point or waiting for the point to cap, im usually very bored. i like the combat, and i like winning, so thats why i stick with it. but i feel like the point control, and various map gimmicks like the trebuchet, are annoying things i have to deal with between combat. and also agree that the mode promotes limited builds and the strategies get pretty stale (cap our point, and usually mid point. if win, hold, if lose, try for their side point, etc). the team that establishes control rarely loses it, which makes the matches somewhat anticlimactic (id say 75+% of tpvp matches are 100+ pt blowouts one way or another)

id be fine with it if it were 1 of many types of modes, a la TOR. but as it is, it isnt a very fun mode that gets in the way of their design philosophies (ie, play whatever you want for whatever class you want).

I agree with all of the above.

typingofthedead.5614:

id be fine with it if it were 1 of many types of modes, a la TOR. but as it is, it isnt a very fun mode that gets in the way of their design philosophies (ie, play whatever you want for whatever class you want).

Agreed.

At this point it seems they are a bit reluctant to do any other modes. I’m not sure why that is, maybe they have more plans for this mode or something, but there’s a good possibility that the current mode is hurting the game.

Hopefully there will be at least some variety in the future, so players can do what they like best, and the esport features could support whichever mode catches on most.

I just hope they work the PvP from the ground up – they seem to be doing the opposite and working from top to bottom with highly competitive features before we have players. It seemed as if we needed rankings very badly a month or two ago, but since then things have changed, paids did not succeed their purpose, and now there is a flat out lack of players. Highly competitive features such as ranking and the weekly/monthly tournament features are great long term, but right now the game needs to pull in more players overall.

The solution for that is do what GW1 did. Have random/competitive arenas to get people learning, then have a higher variety of modes for them to progress too after that. Then would be a perfect time to progress to HoH-style modes, tournaments, etc.

But supporting highly competitive features like tournaments right now…. the game just is not ready for that. There’s no way for your average player to have fun, learn the game, and have a clear route of progression to highly competitive gameplay.

Nor are there the numbers… even rankings and matchmaking don’t work well without enough people. They won’t be accurate ranks, matchmaking won’t be able to find others your rank as easily, and matchmaking queues will be far too long.

This is supposed to be Guild Wars. We need to follow the path that was laid out by that game and expand it here. We know that path works. This new path was tried and is losing players… Please get us back on track and try adding these new experimental features and mode once we have an established Guild Wars style PvP game!

Great post OP. I feel exactly how you feel. I loved GW1, pvp best I have played and I also like the GW2 combat system. I wish they would implement modes like GW1.

But I also dunno how good it would turn out in GW2. I feel GW2 is too bursty. In GW1 you had monks as dedicated healers and the damage in GW1 was more sustained and to really burst down a target, you had to do it as a team/group whereas in GW2 any 1 player can burst down someone instantly by themselves.