Guild Wars 2

My idea to nerf both traits:

Make IP a adept trait but reduce the duration from 4s to a 2s burning. Put accelerant-packed turrets as a master.

Making accelerant-packed master again turret engi will lose the knock backs or will have to sacrifice the damage or boons from turrets.

IP going from 4s to 2s would reduce its dmg by 50%. Making meta cele engi and condi engis a bit weaker. Also been an adept trait would give other builds more viability.

Win win situation. Nerf cele/condi 2 kit engi and turret.

Another alternative would be keep IP as master but reduce duration to 2s and make it aoe.

You’re having issues with Accelerant Packed Turrets? The radius was already nerfed. You have to be practically standing right on top of the turret to be hit.

When I’m playing other classes besides my engies I don’t really have a problem with ACP. It’s visible where it is dropped and you have a little time to respond.

Your IP fix is a bit much.

ip used to be an adept. back then, every build splashed explosives for it. even at “only” 2 seconds its a ridiculous dps increase for an adept slot.

insanemaniac.2456:

ip used to be an adept. back then, every build splashed explosives for it. even at “only” 2 seconds its a ridiculous dps increase for an adept slot.

Well considering that all grenade engis put max points in that traitline and get a 4s burning it been adept or not wouldn’t be a problem.The problem is the duration. They are already maxing that traitline anyway.

xDudisx.5914:

insanemaniac.2456:

ip used to be an adept. back then, every build splashed explosives for it. even at “only” 2 seconds its a ridiculous dps increase for an adept slot.

Well considering that all grenade engis put max points in that traitline and get a 4s burning it been adept or not wouldn’t be a problem.The problem is the duration. They are already maxing that traitline anyway.

Considering guardians and eles have higher burning uptimes I fail to see how a 4s burning on 10s CD being the only sources of burning is OP in those builds besides p/p condi engie’s 4 on pistol. I understand why passive play skills like IP get hated on, but that’s a separate issue.

SobeSoul.6910:

xDudisx.5914:

insanemaniac.2456:

ip used to be an adept. back then, every build splashed explosives for it. even at “only” 2 seconds its a ridiculous dps increase for an adept slot.

Well considering that all grenade engis put max points in that traitline and get a 4s burning it been adept or not wouldn’t be a problem.The problem is the duration. They are already maxing that traitline anyway.

Considering guardians and eles have higher burning uptimes I fail to see how a 4s burning on 10s CD being the only sources of burning is OP in those builds besides p/p condi engie’s 4 on pistol. I understand why passive play skills like IP get hated on, but that’s a separate issue.

You seriously just compared guardian’s ONLY damaging condition to the four that engineer has? Even ele has only burning and bleeding. What makes it an issue is when bleeding, poison, burning and confusion get loaded up on top of other cover conditions like vuln and chill.

Not that I’m complaining on this issue or trying to support this nerf. I’m just pointing out the flaw in your comparison. I’m more of the position that guardian and elementalist need something to make their condition builds more viable.

It’s because Guardians and eles don’t have access to quite as many condis in short time spans. To make up for the lack of condi spam guard and ele get high burning uptime.

IP doesn’t need a nerf, it just needs to be changed to encourage more active gameplay, and no decent engineer objects to that. Your suggestions, however, would not help anything.

xDudisx.5914:

My idea to nerf both traits:

Make IP a adept trait but reduce the duration from 4s to a 2s burning. Put accelerant-packed turrets as a master.

Making accelerant-packed master again turret engi will lose the knock backs or will have to sacrifice the damage or boons from turrets.

IP going from 4s to 2s would reduce its dmg by 50%. Making meta cele engi and condi engis a bit weaker. Also been an adept trait would give other builds more viability.

Win win situation. Nerf cele/condi 2 kit engi and turret.

Another alternative would be keep IP as master but reduce duration to 2s and make it aoe.

Your IP changes are pretty much HUGE buffs. It would be a case of anet trying to nerf something but they are so incompetent that they actually buff it. Like with the thief initiative changes. It is pretty common they try to nerf stuff and actually buff it actually. As they over-complicate things.

The duration of IP is irrelevent. If you dont cleanse a 3-4s burn you will die anyway. So it wont be any change from the current 6s burn (with condi duration).

The only way to really nerf it would be to increase its icd to something like 30 seconds.

Shanks.2907:

SobeSoul.6910:

xDudisx.5914:

insanemaniac.2456:

ip used to be an adept. back then, every build splashed explosives for it. even at “only” 2 seconds its a ridiculous dps increase for an adept slot.

Well considering that all grenade engis put max points in that traitline and get a 4s burning it been adept or not wouldn’t be a problem.The problem is the duration. They are already maxing that traitline anyway.

Considering guardians and eles have higher burning uptimes I fail to see how a 4s burning on 10s CD being the only sources of burning is OP in those builds besides p/p condi engie’s 4 on pistol. I understand why passive play skills like IP get hated on, but that’s a separate issue.

You seriously just compared guardian’s ONLY damaging condition to the four that engineer has? Even ele has only burning and bleeding. What makes it an issue is when bleeding, poison, burning and confusion get loaded up on top of other cover conditions like vuln and chill.

Not that I’m complaining on this issue or trying to support this nerf. I’m just pointing out the flaw in your comparison. I’m more of the position that guardian and elementalist need something to make their condition builds more viable.

You think guardians only have one condition?

What are sigils? Runes?

Lordrosicky.5813:

xDudisx.5914:

My idea to nerf both traits:

Make IP a adept trait but reduce the duration from 4s to a 2s burning. Put accelerant-packed turrets as a master.

Making accelerant-packed master again turret engi will lose the knock backs or will have to sacrifice the damage or boons from turrets.

IP going from 4s to 2s would reduce its dmg by 50%. Making meta cele engi and condi engis a bit weaker. Also been an adept trait would give other builds more viability.

Win win situation. Nerf cele/condi 2 kit engi and turret.

Another alternative would be keep IP as master but reduce duration to 2s and make it aoe.

Your IP changes are pretty much HUGE buffs. It would be a case of anet trying to nerf something but they are so incompetent that they actually buff it. Like with the thief initiative changes. It is pretty common they try to nerf stuff and actually buff it actually. As they over-complicate things.

The duration of IP is irrelevent. If you dont cleanse a 3-4s burn you will die anyway. So it wont be any change from the current 6s burn (with condi duration).

The only way to really nerf it would be to increase its icd to something like 30 seconds.

The duration is irrelevant? No it is not. Cutting the duration by half would reduce the total dmg by 50%. Not every build runs 5+ condi clears to be able to remove the burning when suffering from imob, chill, poison, confusion, cripple, vul, etc…

2s of burning lost would be like losing 1k dmg every 10s.

xDudisx.5914:

insanemaniac.2456:

ip used to be an adept. back then, every build splashed explosives for it. even at “only” 2 seconds its a ridiculous dps increase for an adept slot.

Well considering that all grenade engis put max points in that traitline and get a 4s burning it been adept or not wouldn’t be a problem.The problem is the duration. They are already maxing that traitline anyway.

nades engis arent the only build out there. splashing for ip made 26060 hgh viable. turret engis would take it instead of APT and have more damage.

NeXeD.3042:

It’s because Guardians and eles don’t have access to quite as many condis in short time spans. To make up for the lack of condi spam guard and ele get high burning uptime.

Guardians specifically can keep burning up nearly 100% of the time. I ran into a burn guard last night who was running doom and geo sigils, probably balth runes, against my necro. I couldn’t keep the burns off me even with condi transfers and consume conditions. It was kind of nutty.

We are talking about burn durations and not cover conditions. IP isn’t hideous considering without p/p you have a ~6s gap of burn application.

Here’s my problem with nerfing the Turrets trait. I get why it can be annoying, I really do. And maybe it needs to be buffed and only happen when you explode your turrets yourself, but- Its one of the very few things that can actually count as a skill gap for turrets. Using your heal offensively as an interrupt etc. It has skill involved, which is very scarce as a turreteer. :S

SobeSoul.6910:

NeXeD.3042:

It’s because Guardians and eles don’t have access to quite as many condis in short time spans. To make up for the lack of condi spam guard and ele get high burning uptime.

Guardians specifically can keep burning up nearly 100% of the time. I ran into a burn guard last night who was running doom and geo sigils, probably balth runes, against my necro. I couldn’t keep the burns off me even with condi transfers and consume conditions. It was kind of nutty.

We are talking about burn durations and not cover conditions. IP isn’t hideous considering without p/p you have a ~6s gap of burn application.

your talking about conditions. You don’t get to just focus on that and not this….. not how balance works.

Shaogin.2679:

You’re having issues with Accelerant Packed Turrets? The radius was already nerfed. You have to be practically standing right on top of the turret to be hit.

as Shaogin says, this trait has already been nerfed. all most engineer builds get out of it is knockback on healing turret detonation, which is pretty easy to avoid if you know they are running the trait.

IP seems to generate an incredible amount of QQ. speaking as an engineer main who doesn’t use it, and has fought a lot of meta cele engineers- it’s not an issue. basically every class has condition on crit traits, and i seem to be able to deal with IP while having really bad condi clear.

xDudisx.5914:

Lordrosicky.5813:

xDudisx.5914:

My idea to nerf both traits:

Make IP a adept trait but reduce the duration from 4s to a 2s burning. Put accelerant-packed turrets as a master.

Making accelerant-packed master again turret engi will lose the knock backs or will have to sacrifice the damage or boons from turrets.

IP going from 4s to 2s would reduce its dmg by 50%. Making meta cele engi and condi engis a bit weaker. Also been an adept trait would give other builds more viability.

Win win situation. Nerf cele/condi 2 kit engi and turret.

Another alternative would be keep IP as master but reduce duration to 2s and make it aoe.

Your IP changes are pretty much HUGE buffs. It would be a case of anet trying to nerf something but they are so incompetent that they actually buff it. Like with the thief initiative changes. It is pretty common they try to nerf stuff and actually buff it actually. As they over-complicate things.

The duration of IP is irrelevent. If you dont cleanse a 3-4s burn you will die anyway. So it wont be any change from the current 6s burn (with condi duration).

The only way to really nerf it would be to increase its icd to something like 30 seconds.

The duration is irrelevant? No it is not. Cutting the duration by half would reduce the total dmg by 50%. Not every build runs 5+ condi clears to be able to remove the burning when suffering from imob, chill, poison, confusion, cripple, vul, etc…

2s of burning lost would be like losing 1k dmg every 10s.

Really you are wrong. I know because when they made the same change to dhuumfire the effect was basically non existant.

It isnt like losing 1k dmg at all. And yes pretty much all builds do have condi clear that is so frequent.

And condi duration has never really been as good as condi damage except with respect to fear which is a CC. Condi duration is usually wasted because there is so much cleanse in the game and much of it is AoE too.

Lordrosicky.5813:

xDudisx.5914:

Lordrosicky.5813:

xDudisx.5914:

My idea to nerf both traits:

Make IP a adept trait but reduce the duration from 4s to a 2s burning. Put accelerant-packed turrets as a master.

Making accelerant-packed master again turret engi will lose the knock backs or will have to sacrifice the damage or boons from turrets.

IP going from 4s to 2s would reduce its dmg by 50%. Making meta cele engi and condi engis a bit weaker. Also been an adept trait would give other builds more viability.

Win win situation. Nerf cele/condi 2 kit engi and turret.

Another alternative would be keep IP as master but reduce duration to 2s and make it aoe.

Your IP changes are pretty much HUGE buffs. It would be a case of anet trying to nerf something but they are so incompetent that they actually buff it. Like with the thief initiative changes. It is pretty common they try to nerf stuff and actually buff it actually. As they over-complicate things.

The duration of IP is irrelevent. If you dont cleanse a 3-4s burn you will die anyway. So it wont be any change from the current 6s burn (with condi duration).

The only way to really nerf it would be to increase its icd to something like 30 seconds.

The duration is irrelevant? No it is not. Cutting the duration by half would reduce the total dmg by 50%. Not every build runs 5+ condi clears to be able to remove the burning when suffering from imob, chill, poison, confusion, cripple, vul, etc…

2s of burning lost would be like losing 1k dmg every 10s.

Really you are wrong. I know because when they made the same change to dhuumfire the effect was basically non existant.

It isnt like losing 1k dmg at all. And yes pretty much all builds do have condi clear that is so frequent.

And condi duration has never really been as good as condi damage except with respect to fear which is a CC. Condi duration is usually wasted because there is so much cleanse in the game and much of it is AoE too.

No you are wrong. 4s is still a short time for people to remove that burn. With so many other conditions covering it the chances are it will tick for almost full duration and rng may end up removing the others. If it was 2s the max possible dmg would be lower.

Also not everyone is a d/d ele with almost infinite condi removal. Engi, mesmer, etc may end up taking the entire burning duration.

turret engi running with IP? no thank you

all it takes for an engi to put you on a bad spot is a touch or two at the start to proc hell and back

They should just remove IP, one of the worst mechanics in the game. It hampers engi build diversity too IMO. Nade engi dumbs down some really nice class design,and IP makes any other choice dumb for condi engi…..

But they should nerf autoattacks on every other power class too. Especially D/x ele.

+1 to OP. I’ve been suggesting this for a while. I would also limit IP to rifle and pistol crits to cut down on the cover conditions.

Accelerant-Packed Turrets could have its damage buffed slightly if it was moved to master. The reason for the move is so that turret engis can’t get the knockback and damage on turret death AND boons from turrets AND turret damage+range or bubbles. One of those would have to be left out of a turret engi build, making it far more manageable for average players to combat.

Incendiary Powder at 4 seconds actually becomes 5 seconds in standard engineer builds because they have at least +30% condition duration from traits or runes. For something that is completely unavoidable and difficult to remove because of cover conditions, 5 seconds (2500-3000 damage) is entirely too much. If you ever look at a death log against an engineer, the number one source of damage by far is burning. And cele rifle engineers only get burning from IP. This strength of this trait needs reduced significantly. If it hurts too much, then buff other aspects of engineer which have counter-play.

I don’t mind these changes.
but I fear that they could be a stealth buff instead of a nerf to cele engis.
yes, you loose 2sec burn (in reality, the burn lasts for 7.5 sec on cele engi with balthazar runes, so the duration of IP would be decreased to 3.75 sec), but since you now have a free master-tier slot, you’d rather pick short fuse than accelerated packed turrets, giving all nades a reduced cd of 20%, increasing the amounts of all other condis we could spam.

we maybe loose the knockpack on our healing turret for it, but considering that cele rifle still uses the actual rifle and toolkit, that would only be a minor loss for all we get there.

For pve it would be nice of course, allowing us to choose the 10% dmg increase for nades + deal additional burning (even tho FT is already in the meta there), making non-meta nade-builds more viable than they already are.

Overall I’m fine with the change, but since it can be hardly considered as nerf, I don’t think the OP will achieve what he intends with it.

Lordrosicky.5813:

xDudisx.5914:

My idea to nerf both traits:

Make IP a adept trait but reduce the duration from 4s to a 2s burning. Put accelerant-packed turrets as a master.

Making accelerant-packed master again turret engi will lose the knock backs or will have to sacrifice the damage or boons from turrets.

IP going from 4s to 2s would reduce its dmg by 50%. Making meta cele engi and condi engis a bit weaker. Also been an adept trait would give other builds more viability.

Win win situation. Nerf cele/condi 2 kit engi and turret.

Another alternative would be keep IP as master but reduce duration to 2s and make it aoe.

Your IP changes are pretty much HUGE buffs. It would be a case of anet trying to nerf something but they are so incompetent that they actually buff it. Like with the thief initiative changes. It is pretty common they try to nerf stuff and actually buff it actually. As they over-complicate things.

The duration of IP is irrelevent. If you dont cleanse a 3-4s burn you will die anyway. So it wont be any change from the current 6s burn (with condi duration).

The only way to really nerf it would be to increase its icd to something like 30 seconds.

This. Any decent player WILL clear burning if he can, if not, he knows he has a problem. So duration matters little, a 20secs CD or even 25 makes sense.

Novuake.2691:

This. Any decent player WILL clear burning if he can, if not, he knows he has a problem. So duration matters little, a 20secs CD or even 25 makes sense.

You have 4-5 conditions on you. What ability can cleanse at least 4 so you’re sure to get burning off and has a cooldown of 10 seconds?

Nerf all engi traits/skills but give engi condi removal.

Exedore.6320:

Novuake.2691:

This. Any decent player WILL clear burning if he can, if not, he knows he has a problem. So duration matters little, a 20secs CD or even 25 makes sense.

You have 4-5 conditions on you. What ability can cleanse at least 4 so you’re sure to get burning off and has a cooldown of 10 seconds?

Skill. Knowing WHEN to cleanse and when not to. Burning will likely not be one of the buried condi’s.

solution give it the dhuumfire treatment ip will only activate when you use toolbelt skills, this adds skilful play causing the engie to choose when best to apply it.

sounds fair right?

Dhuumfire changes weren’t only “skillful play” by moving them to ds auto. They basically killed the trait.

robertul.3679:

Dhuumfire changes weren’t only “skillful play” by moving them to ds auto. They basically killed the trait.

Not like necros ever actually NEEDED burning. Necros need and have always needed better ways to sustain themselves in the fights.

As an engineer I say:
Yes, please do this!!! If you want to buff us that is xD
Turret engineer with burning sounds incredibly fun, so does cele ingi with 3-6 additional mightstacks or 10% more damage or 20% less cd on on nades and bombs! Also I believe this would definitely be in favor of HGH builds!
Please do it! xD

But srsly… If you want to change something that makes actual sense then try to make IP a non-passive proc.

ozzy.8059:

solution give it the dhuumfire treatment ip will only activate when you use toolbelt skills, this adds skilful play causing the engie to choose when best to apply it.

sounds fair right?

Actually, i don’t think so. Assuming you mean something like “after using the toolbelt your next attack inflict burning”, many toolbelts are far too situational to be used effectively for such a purpose. It would end up having to choose whether to waste the original purpose of the skill in exchange for a burning, or to not care and having the burning whenever you would have used the skill anyway (thus with no difference as far a “skillful play” would go).
Basically, that’s similar to what they did with kit refinement – putting situational skills on kit swap. Almost no one uses that trait anymore. Guess it didn’t work well, heh.

If you meant something like static discharge, thus having some kind of projectile shot out when a toolbelt skill is used, well…just try using static discharge with anything that doesn’t target a single enemy.
You would be fighting the camera half of the time, instead of the enemy…

Imho, the only thing IP needs is a proper tell. Maybe some flame icon above the engineer (in PvP/WvsW) and put IP as a sort of buff, so that there is an icon on his bar.

Like doom, leeching, both shield skills, toolkit block etc. Not that hard to add a buff icon.

As for kit refinement..well it was slowly murdered just like dhuumfire. Namely the grenade barrage and super elixir being replaced and the huge 20s cooldown slapped in too. I don’t remember much from the time it was popular but I think they didn’t share a global cooldown either.