Guild Wars 2

and/or only one dodge would it be balanced? Why or why not? If the other team had three scrappers how would one exploit that? Three necroes, guardians, or thieves are counterable but engis have too many things that simply play for them (gyros that can rez and stomp as well as take some damage and they even gain a bit when a gyro is destroyed via a daze field proc or gaining more protection…disgusting) and are reasonably mobile enough to reach a node before a full cap. Their swiftness uptime also makes outrotating as a team hard, can’t really use ranged attacks since the safe windows to use projectiles is too narrow between all the reflects, and only revenant or a precisely played druid really stands a chance in a 1v1. Haven’t dueled any against warrior.

First off, no engi down state / single dodge won’t happen (it seems like a silly suggestion)

Second, I have been playing my engi recently and I have not lost a 1v1. I have an instant cast heal that refills when I hit 25% hp, an instant cast 50% damage reduction, instant cast remove 2 condis from everyone near me, and constant reflects / evade / block through hammer skills. If things get bad I have that auto elixir s proc at 25% hp and a sneak gyro if I need to get away. Needless to say, I haven’t lost a 1v1 because the class is that easy.

Going off of “the class carries” thing, whenever I duel a warrior I win 80% of the time. It might just be the warriors I was fighting, but when asked how to counter an engi on war, I can only guess, it seems like a flat counter.

It does but some outside the box solution is needed if scrapper is going to keep its versatility and answer to everything. Maybe better would be giving no compensation upon gyro destruction (the gyroes themselves are to provide the benefit while active) and nerfing some of the gyro health.

Topher.5631:

First off, no engi down state / single dodge won’t happen (it seems like a silly suggestion)

Second, I have been playing my engi recently and I have not lost a 1v1. I have an instant cast heal that refills when I hit 25% hp, an instant cast 50% damage reduction, instant cast remove 2 condis from everyone near me, and constant reflects / evade / block through hammer skills. If things get bad I have that auto elixir s proc at 25% hp and a sneak gyro if I need to get away. Needless to say, I haven’t lost a 1v1 because the class is that easy.

Going off of “the class carries” thing, whenever I duel a warrior I win 80% of the time. It might just be the warriors I was fighting, but when asked how to counter an engi on war, I can only guess, it seems like a flat counter.

I can route a scrapper on war, but as soon as he decides to disengage for reset, there’s pretty much nothing you can do to stop them.

Scrapper sustain is the height of REDIC! XD

I agree that something is needed, but a nerf to health / having one dodge / no down state would be the wrong answer, because that would also harm core engi…

What would need to happen is to bring some of the defensive hammer skills down a bit. A reflect on a 6s cd, an evade on a 12, and a block on a 20. Note that all of these also do damage, so the damage can get a bit ridiculous.

I definitely agree on the gyro self-destruct function.

They’re just a class that can run around doing whatever they want because they have zero risk of ever dying. I’m not sure if scrapper is healthy for the game.

Exaggerate much? I mean sure Scrapper is messed up, but so are the other HoT meta builds. Sheesh.

Anyways, if we’re being realistic and not whining cause we lost to a Scrapper, the Hammer still needs to be toned down. It’s still too much survival and damage packed into one weapon. Gyros really aren’t an issue, not sure where all that hate is coming from.

Always better to shave off and see how it plays out, in the case of the Scrapper it is the Hammer that needs shaving.

And before someone claims I am just defending my profession, I am an Engineer, not some lame Scrapper thank you very much.

Shaogin.2679:

Exaggerate much? I mean sure Scrapper is messed up, but so are the other HoT meta builds. Sheesh.

Anyways, if we’re being realistic and not whining cause we lost to a Scrapper, the Hammer still needs to be toned down. It’s still too much survival and damage packed into one weapon. Gyros really aren’t an issue, not sure where all that hate is coming from.

Always better to shave off and see how it plays out, in the case of the Scrapper it is the Hammer that needs shaving.

And before someone claims I am just defending my profession, I am an Engineer, not some lame Scrapper thank you very much.

Which one tho?

Ele High heals and condi removal but hit like a wet noodle
Druid heals and pet damage but weak to cc and condition spam
Rev high damage high sustain but weak to conditions
Mesmer? Carrion is not as good anymore, super squish.
Necro? Weak to CC and focus fire
DH null
thief? same weakness as any thief build

Scrapper is, high stab, incredibly tanky, great damage, high sustain, decent condition management, high reflect uptime too.

Gyros and Final salvo, its connected, and you get the insane regen. Medic gyro is also instant.

Only one close to being overtuned is Ele imo. but still, ele does not do any damage.

Berserker has high sustain, high stab, incredibly tanky, great damage, decent condition management, great CC.

Remove their freaking projectile destruction/reflection and lessen their freaking healing -____-

fishball.7204:

Berserker has high sustain, high stab, incredibly tanky, great damage, decent condition management, great CC.

I do not know about condition management now after the LB cleansing ire fix.

Listing all the things that the professions does in awe inspired way doesn’t make for a good argument

edit: like dang, berserker has stability and CC AND CONDITIONS

StickerHappy.8052:

fishball.7204:

Berserker has high sustain, high stab, incredibly tanky, great damage, decent condition management, great CC.

I do not know about condition management now after the LB cleansing ire fix.

Boon stripping a berserkers resistance in a team fight will ruin his day, only trouble is mes cant run domination atm.

Power berserker can easily counter condi berserker also.

Condi berserker is strongest with an ele support. Otherwise team focus, and/or a couple of counter builds exist in play.

Chaith.8256:

Listing all the things that the professions does in awe inspired way doesn’t make for a good argument

edit: like dang, berserker has stability and CC AND CONDITIONS

It’s pretty simple. Scrapper will not die. Every other profession dies. Scrapper doesn’t.

To clarify: their survival might require a disengage (usually after a 25 fight vs auto procs XD ). But they can survive to return indefinitely.

Is that OP? Is that out of line? That’s the question :)

Ross Biddle.2367:

It’s pretty simple. Scrapper will not die.

Of all the responses to my post about people using exaggerated language, haha.

I think that throughout the game, unranked, ranked, there are things that are strong at a beginner to intermediate level, for example Scrapper and Dragonhunter. It just depends on how you’re looking at it.

Lots of pro leaguers think that Scrapper should not be in a 5 man comp, lots do.

From a pro league perspective Scrapper is balanced, from a ranked PvP perspective, Scrapper probably OP

Chaith.8256:

Listing all the things that the professions does in awe inspired way doesn’t make for a good argument

edit: like dang, berserker has stability and CC AND CONDITIONS

No offense though, what are the hard counters for scrappers?

Even metabattle says its TBD.

StickerHappy.8052:

Chaith.8256:

Listing all the things that the professions does in awe inspired way doesn’t make for a good argument

edit: like dang, berserker has stability and CC AND CONDITIONS

No offense though, what are the hard counters for scrappers?

Even metabattle says its TBD.

If you’re speaking about 1v1s, Invo Rev, for sure. I wouldn’t really credit metabattle that much

Chaith.8256:

Ross Biddle.2367:

It’s pretty simple. Scrapper will not die.

Of all the responses to my post about people using exaggerated language, haha.

Language is an amazing tool, and necessity often demands an appropriate, even if simplistic, application :)

The problem of a scrapper is, hammer defensive skills are actually the hardest hitting ones….. Both projectile blocks hit like a truck for their defensive purposes…

I don’t like Engi so let’s remove downstate and half of its endurance… lol what?

ellesee.8297:

I don’t like Engi so let’s remove downstate and half of its endurance… lol what?

People generally have pretended the original post didn’t exist and continued with the discussion in a rational way

StickerHappy.8052:

Chaith.8256:

Listing all the things that the professions does in awe inspired way doesn’t make for a good argument

edit: like dang, berserker has stability and CC AND CONDITIONS

No offense though, what are the hard counters for scrappers?

Even metabattle says its TBD.

Well played necros (they dont have to be top tier) [or insert any top tier condi stack class: mes or war] can easily dismantle a scrapper. They actually don’t have to play the matchup that well to win, if you watch the scrappers animations. If you want to casually say scrapper is top tier for solos, that’s fine, because they do perform better than other classes in a soloq situation, team-wise, they are really lackluster atm. (imo)

edit: some of the issues that people bring about hammer dealing too much damage: well, they have to run to your FACE to deal dmg while defending, so you do one of two things: run and avoid dmg or breathe from your mouth more and face tank dmg while you hit an engineer in the face in an invuln phase.

Side note: metabattle isn’t the end-all-be-all for builds you should play, I play my own scrapper variant with an 89% win rate to legend.

If only the Elixir S proc was to be removed, you would be surprises how easy it actually is to kill an engineer. It would also be a lot less frustrating. Other than that, the reflect of hammer #2 is on too short a CD maybe. The rest is rather balanced with the Rocket Charge changes: a slow pure melee weapon needs to deal decent damage to be worth playing.

Of course, it would need to happen as a part of a general effort to remove passive invulns and CC: Nightmare rune, Self-Regulating Defense, Defy Pain, Mirror of Anguish, rev taunt trait, etc.

One of the most annoying thing is that their gyros still daze and do damage when they are destroyed by enemies (yay more passive damage and cc). They should only do that damage and daze if the Scrapper manually destroys them.

As a Scrapper main I can tell U that the easier way to kill Scrappers is with condition damage.

The Scrapper have a really good sustain but also have a lack on condition cleanses (more lack with medic gyro than turret version). The sustain can soak part of the condi damage but the lack of condition cleanses make it vulnerable against condibombs. Even more if the bomb is created with few stacks of different conditions than huge stacks of few conditions.

The “natural” counters of Scrappers are condi reapers and berserkers. Condi thiefs and chronos are problematic aswell but not as dangerous than the first two.

English is not my native language but I hope that everyone could understand what I am saying.

I’m seeing a lot of people say that scrappers are countered by heavy condi pressure. While this is true for pure MB builds, anyone running the old elixir builds has a significant stock of condi removal on their own, and if they’re backed up by an auraspam ele in the middle of a teamfight conditions just run off your back like the proverbial duck.

Personally, I think the problem is low-CD defensive skills combined with very high mobility and aggro depressure-the former being the swiftness uptime, and the latter being the elixir S/stealth gyros. This can allow a mid-tier scrapper to easily rotate defenses that negate about 50-75% of possible damage. Yes, they lose point cap to do so, but they only need to do so under higher than 1v1 pressure.

How to bring them into balance without destroying the class? Perhaps increasing the CD on all hammer skills by about 10-20%, with particular care given to the reflecting whirl, as this is both a potent defense that can really ruin a ranged class’ day if used right, and a powerful melee range burst that can actually be landed very reliably when combined with swiftness and the stickiness of the hammer 3. However, some mention must be made of the reflective dome, which is not only a personal reflect but an AoE reflect on what to me feels a rather short cooldown for how useful it is.

I also think giving up on “one skill fits all” for PvP, WvW and PvE might help bring the class in line without destroying its ability for other game modes.

ApaWanka.2698:

As a Scrapper main I can tell U that the easier way to kill Scrappers is with condition damage.

The Scrapper have a really good sustain but also have a lack on condition cleanses (more lack with medic gyro than turret version). The sustain can soak part of the condi damage but the lack of condition cleanses make it vulnerable against condibombs. Even more if the bomb is created with few stacks of different conditions than huge stacks of few conditions.

The “natural” counters of Scrappers are condi reapers and berserkers. Condi thiefs and chronos are problematic aswell but not as dangerous than the first two.

English is not my native language but I hope that everyone could understand what I am saying.

So what you’re saying is, the only decent counter to scrapper right now is the out of control condition burst/spam?

Ok then XD

Ross Biddle.2367:

ApaWanka.2698:

As a Scrapper main I can tell U that the easier way to kill Scrappers is with condition damage.

The Scrapper have a really good sustain but also have a lack on condition cleanses (more lack with medic gyro than turret version). The sustain can soak part of the condi damage but the lack of condition cleanses make it vulnerable against condibombs. Even more if the bomb is created with few stacks of different conditions than huge stacks of few conditions.

The “natural” counters of Scrappers are condi reapers and berserkers. Condi thiefs and chronos are problematic aswell but not as dangerous than the first two.

English is not my native language but I hope that everyone could understand what I am saying.

So what you’re saying is, the only decent counter to scrapper right now is the out of control condition burst/spam?

Ok then XD

Seems like you’re cherry picking arguments, do engis face the biggest hard counter vs a condi spike? yes. Are they immune to everything else? No. Any decent necro should destroy an engi, purely based on animations, as an engi main, when you face this type of player you might as well let go of the keyboard if you wanted to win a 1v1. (realistically you let them grab the point and disengage)

That isn’t to say there aren’t ways for a mes/war player to lock an engineer down, but it requires more work than a necro. After that there are 3 stalemate matchups: ele, ranger, and an engi. The class is honestly a far cry from what it used to be and it’s frustrating to play atm. I would break down each matchup, but hot has thrown balance out the window, with another upcoming expansion and skill balance.. yeah..

Ross Biddle.2367:

So what you’re saying is, the only decent counter to scrapper right now is the out of control condition burst/spam?

Ok then XD

I said Invo rev before, you forgot tho

Chaith.8256:

Ross Biddle.2367:

So what you’re saying is, the only decent counter to scrapper right now is the out of control condition burst/spam?

Ok then XD

I said Invo rev before, you forgot tho

So your suggested counter to a high sustain bruiser specialized in anti-power build combat is…a glass power build?

I struggle to see how..you should explain how an inv rev counter a scrapper, are we forgetting that an inv rev lack stab respect to a ret rev..or am I missing something?

The reason that he is saying that is because a rev has almost as many blocks / evades as scrapper does, and still does a ton of damage. The only thing a scrapper has on it is condi clear (which doesn’t matter if the engi is using the meta build). Play either class for a little bit and the difference should be a bit more clear

Scrapper loses or stalemates against anything with reasonable protection uptime.

Ahh right then. So according to engi mains on this thread the counter to scrapper is rev, necro, warrior, mes, power and Condi. Just about everything counters their scrapper according to them.

To the OP, no it would not be balanced. An engi relies on mobility they cannot tank like an ele etc. So the only way they survive is by moving about and active defence. Engi’s aren’t the top rated class in the meta anymore anyway (third tier now). So doing that would not balance things, unless the world were only thieves and engis

When I play engi, I have a nasty time against a good mesmer if I’m trying to cap a point against one. Warriors are a 50/50 and I believe come down to skill. I have limited stability access, so if they get me with the stun I go down in an instant. Elementalists can bunker me for ever 1 v 1 if they are good, plus the lighting bolts and area CC basically means I can’t toe to toe with them. A necro can insta kill me because I run leadership these days and have a gazillion boons up.. and well you know what necros can do. Most Guardians I can take unless their very good or in pairs. I can kill other engis… roughly 60% I meet. my non-meta build gives me an advantage against them. Revenants I have to kite forever I can kill them roughly half the time… you have to be really good at getting your active defences right. And theives I kill most of the time.

So in summary their are some classes Ihave to really watch for, and some I have an advantage against. Out of interes which class does the OP main?

An engi relies on mobility they cannot tank like an ele etc.

I’ve seen them tank better than ele and you have to take all defensive resources into account. If ele wants to get their extra reflect they’ll need to swap to earth putting the previous attunement on cooldown, use a skill that typically should be reserved for cleanse, wait for an overload that a thief has all the time in the world to interrupt, and use Aftershock. That’s a lot of reflects but the cooldowns are reasonable. Then you have swirling winds that just destroys projectiles.

I’ve been maining druid and tempest (both Mender’s) for the past few seasons with some rev and thief thrown in (usually power Shiro but switches to Mallyx for the resistance against certain comps) and have come to terms with how tempest isn’t an ideal duelist but keep seeing scrappers survive for quite awhile in 2v2’s. I mostly win with rev and stalemate with druid and tempest but won just once with druid in a 1v1 against scrapper in ranked play (won that duel in Emerald last season and even that was some work, stopped progress in Ruby) and maybe 3 with revenant.

Mallyx rev seems like the best bet between confusion and torment spam and boon stripping but isn’t how I usually play though.

Agemnon.4608:

An engi relies on mobility they cannot tank like an ele etc.

I’ve seen them tank better than ele and you have to take all defensive resources into account. If ele wants to get their extra reflect they’ll need to swap to earth putting the previous attunement on cooldown, use a skill that typically should be reserved for cleanse, wait for an overload that a thief has all the time in the world to interrupt, and use Aftershock. That’s a lot of reflects but the cooldowns are reasonable. Then you have swirling winds that just destroys projectiles.

I’ve been maining druid and tempest (both Mender’s) for the past few seasons with some rev and thief thrown in (usually power Shiro but switches to Mallyx for the resistance against certain comps) and have come to terms with how tempest isn’t an ideal duelist but keep seeing scrappers survive for quite awhile in 2v2’s. I mostly win with rev and stalemate with druid and tempest but won just once with druid in a 1v1 against scrapper in ranked play (won that duel in Emerald last season and even that was some work, stopped progress in Ruby) and maybe 3 with revenant.

Mallyx rev seems like the best bet between confusion and torment spam and boon stripping but isn’t how I usually play though.

How can the engi tank? The bulwark gyro goes down ridiculously fast in group engagements (its got a nice reflect that can buy you some time so that part is still useful). Blocking will stop physical damage but doesn’t stop the well your standing in from eating you alive, and CC can focus you down relatively instantly. If you go potion S you still take all your condi damage and can’t cleanse, plus you no longer contest the point. I can’t see an engineer doing a decent job of tanking in any serious skirmish. You could help with thunderclap and some CC from your gyros dieing really quick I suppose, but you won’t be standing on point long soaking up the hits. Your better applying CC from a distance. the engi thrives on in and out, on not being in the same place and running for it while trying to shoot back over your shoulder. Tanking is just not its thing. Maybe if I went total healing amulet but I’d not have the group support that the other classes have and I have no invuln or resistance or much stability. my elixirs cand rid condies but you’d best not be in a field that reapplies, and with gyro builds not so many condi cleanses anymore.

Ghazan.9213:

Ahh right then. So according to engi mains on this thread the counter to scrapper is rev, necro, warrior, mes, power and Condi. Just about everything counters their scrapper according to them.

We are usually good against guards and theives. I am “close enough” to rev and warrior that I feel skill makes the difference. If you miss a defense against one of them they will put you down fast. You basically have to wait them out and retaliate and NOT stand toe to toe. A necro can really hose my build bad, and a good mes… well when I realize I’m up against a good one I run. Eles can keep me to a total draw if they are bunker, and cause me no end of grief group skirmish if they’re the stun sort. Which class do you main?

Father Busho.2796:

The problem of a scrapper is, hammer defensive skills are actually the hardest hitting ones….. Both projectile blocks hit like a truck for their defensive purposes…

They do both allow counterplay however. The reflect takes cast time. so when I notice the reflect I cancel my attack and swithc to FT AA to apply burn OR drop a poison mortar at my feet. The block is directional and doesn’t save them from standing in my wall of fire or in my mortar fields or if I run through them and about face. Both only do serious damage very short range, and a scrapper can’t stay short range long and survive.

Ghazan.9213:

Ahh right then. So according to engi mains on this thread the counter to scrapper is rev, necro, warrior, mes, power and Condi. Just about everything counters their scrapper according to them.

No, two different posters and opinions differ.

To clarify for confused readers, in 1v1s, in my point of view assuming both players are highly competent, Retribution Rev, Druid, Tempest, all stalemates Scrapper. Reaper/Berserker/Chrono will make for a challenging fight depending on build, Invo Revs have an advantage regardless of Scrapper build, and Scrapper counters Thief and Dragonhunter.

And @Supreme who theorizes that Scrapper would never have problems with Invocation revs in 1v1, the reason why that’s wrong is because the Rev can easily avoid AoE, punish melee attempts, and can pop Glint and guarantee a full heal via acid bomb, or attacking Gyros (that blow up). The Scrapper will go down to 20vuln, invo swap nukes.

However, 1v1 matchups are pretty non-relevant these days. People ITT seem to be immediately going to 1v1s to see if something is balanced, which is wrong, imo.

In the Pro League, Druids right now get compared to Scrapper in every way, cause they are the only two professions that can perform a reviving & secondary support role in conquest.

Comparing Scrapper and Druid’s utility and effectiveness is a very good tool ‘cause you can tell balance is good when they’re both special snowflakes in doing the same thing, different ways.

Right now I say balance is better than it’s been for a while. Before the Slick Shoes nerf, Druid was just a Search and Rescue gimmick that had far less killing power than Engineer. Now, it’s pretty bang on.

Pros for Scrapper

• Superior point pressure, and damage to CC’d/downed targets.
• Special utilities such as Moa, Bulwark.
• More frequent fast reviving.

Pros for Druid

• Slightly better 1v1 matchups.
• Slightly more mobility.
• Longer CC effects.
• Far superior group healing.
• More infrequent but higher success rate fast revives.

My 2c, I’ve seen a lot of kitten and discussed balance a ton with my peers.

TLDR, All the Elite specs (except DH) are balanced. I hope it doesn’t get royally ruined anytime soon.

shion.2084:

The block is directional and doesn’t save them from standing in my wall of fire or in my mortar fields or if I run through them and about face.

While I agree with your post, the Hammer #4 block is omni-directional

Supreme.3164:

Chaith.8256:

Ross Biddle.2367:

So what you’re saying is, the only decent counter to scrapper right now is the out of control condition burst/spam?

Ok then XD

I said Invo rev before, you forgot tho

So your suggested counter to a high sustain bruiser specialized in anti-power build combat is…a glass power build?

I struggle to see how..you should explain how an inv rev counter a scrapper, are we forgetting that an inv rev lack stab respect to a ret rev..or am I missing something?

Do you play either of these builds? I play both and have zero problem on Invocation rev 1 v 1 vs Scrapper. Scrappers don’t have enough damage and are just too slow and predictable for rev’s active defenses and sustain. Rev’s damage is just too much for Scrapper to sustain through for long.

Retribution Rev, Druid, Tempest, all stalemates Scrapper.

I think I know what my problem is. Those are my main classes. On thief I typically don’t even bother with scrapper except for some temporary harassing. Usually whenever I fight a scrapper all of a sudden a teamfight will land on top of me and I have to disengage (Eye of the Storm and/or Lightning Flash, staff 3 or CA form superspeed and stealth disengage) or stay depending on how things are going.

I think scrapper also lacks a little bit in locking down opponents.

Scrapper offers some cc(glob shot + hammer #5) and 2 gap closers(hammer #3 + acid bomb, super speed if you wanna take that into account) for sure, but its quite easy for any sustainable class to disengage from them. Glob shot is so kitten unreliable outside of melee range that it hardly ever hit, so scrappers get easily kited for ages if your opponents need to. Try to down a circles running warrior on foefire mid point for example, it will take ages to out-dps all the passive regeneration if he just kites all the time and maintains his regens. In open field, it gets much worse of course.

Every other melee class offers much better tools to hunt down disengaging targets, that should be taken into account if you want to compare classes. 1 very unreliable cripple and 1 stun, thats pretty much all scrappers have(well, elixier x can help us in very certain of those situations). And this really isn´t is a very little drawback like some will propably argue, its absolutly important in terms of class balancing.

Chaith.8256:

shion.2084:

The block is directional and doesn’t save them from standing in my wall of fire or in my mortar fields or if I run through them and about face.

While I agree with your post, the Hammer #4 block is omni-directional

Oh wow, I always tried to aim it at people… maybe that’s just where the damage is applied then… hadn’t realized.

Mister Fluffkin.7358:

Every other melee class offers much better tools to hunt down disengaging targets, that should be taken into account if you want to compare classes. 1 very unreliable cripple and 1 stun, thats pretty much all scrappers have

Yeah that’s for sure intentional, solidified by Slick Shoes lockdown getting shafted. Scrappers are pretty dependent on allies to lockdown, dependent on enemies being forced to stand on point, that was a big part in bringing Scrapper down in line with other nerfed professions.

I hope that they won’t harm my build, what people complains about that isn’t included in my build is
- elixir S and that trait so nerf it to he’ll.
- Purge gyro, nerf nerf nerf.
- Healing turret, nerf it more I don’t understand why people think it is so good.
- Sneak gyro, oh give it an hours cast time and a week’s CD for what I care.
- I have said it before, take away the evade at hammer skill 3 but please make it so it works like som thief skills, every press I do on the skill makes me jump charge and if I used it 3 times or stops using it for 1-2 seconds it goes on CD.
- No reflect on hammer skill 2.

If you want to do nerfs like this, I am okay with it.

My only issue against scrapper is the defensive abilities of Hammer:

From 1 weap set, they get:
A full block ability on a 20s cooldown (that also does damage), a reflect on a 6s cooldown and an AoE daze
Combined with gyros, it gets out of control, since they have melee pressure, and solid anti-range abilities.
If it was a scrapper with a rifle on the other hand, they get dealt with easily enough.

Warrior’s shield is on a 25s cooldown, and only reflects if traited. Closest thing I can think of to compare to Scrapper Hammer.

Lol, I actually don’t run gyro either, I switch between my rabid condi build I posted in the engi forum, and a quickness leadership based build with a bit of condi from the firearms trait line and pinpoint, paired with knights or paladin depending on how I’m feeling. Either way I never use S, I don’t use HT, nor purge… however hammer is key to me having a chance in hell. There is no way I could survive any point contention without being able to block ranged at key moments, or defend with block against a warrior burst. I have very little health and a slip and its over, without the hammer 2 and 4 I would have to convert to entirely ranged and not be a scrapper at all. I actually find the rotating block is chanllenging to use as a reflect because of the cast time. Folks who know what they are doing can hit you anyway, because you must either be predictive and whirl in anticipation, or eat a shot or two first before it comes into play.

I agree with you on not surviving on a point long without enough defense (imagine how the rest of us feel without block and reflect:D), but…. most other classes, if theyre being defensive on a point, to survive the bomb, theyre unable to output the same damage that a scrapper can, aside from maybe DH’s, but we all know how long a DH can last.

Maybe if the damage of the hammer block was removed?
I can see why a Scrapper would get both a reflect and a block on one weap set though, since you have no weap swap, and you’re limited to pure melee if you run hammer aside from utilities.

Ven Zehn.6573:

My only issue against scrapper is the defensive abilities of Hammer:

From 1 weap set, they get:
A full block ability on a 20s cooldown (that also does damage), a reflect on a 6s cooldown and an AoE daze
Combined with gyros, it gets out of control, since they have melee pressure, and solid anti-range abilities.
If it was a scrapper with a rifle on the other hand, they get dealt with easily enough.

Warrior’s shield is on a 25s cooldown, and only reflects if traited. Closest thing I can think of to compare to Scrapper Hammer.

I think its a matter of trying to compare out of context. You make a big point of mentioning from only one weapon set, but an engi only has one. If they effectively want more they must use up their skill slots.

A engi has no resistance, and engi has no invuln that they can do damage while using. I assume warrior naturally have better armour than engi’s. All these things would have to be taken into consideration. The comparison taken out of context is not a particularly interesting one. I bet one of the classes can teleport more frequently than another, should they then be balanced for duration?

An engi cannot take a hit, they rely on mitigating and avoiding them. The hammer is key to them being a “scrapper” and being able to fight on point. They are designed at their very core to be squishier and so need the tricks and gimmicks to keep them going.