Guild Wars 2

I a very good Thief player will give feedback on how to nerf it

1. Backstab damage alone is fine. I would even suggest that non-crit backstab is a bit weak and should be increased.
2. Cloak and Dagger damage is fine. It has a high initiative cost, melee ability with cast time.
3. Mug, the trait that makes steal do damage is a problem. Steal is a gap closer + item conjure based on enemy, with an early lvl trait it can do 5k damage when it crits.
4. Assassin’s Signet 150%+ damage on next attack is a problem.

What to change?

3. Mug, reduce the damage by 50%.
4. Change the activate effect to give X stacks of might for Y seconds. Maybe throw in a Fury too, reduce the cooldown from 45 sec to 30 sec.

This way Assassin’s Signet can still be used to increase damage, but stretched out over a duration instead of a blink of an eye. The boons can be countered by boon rip/corrupt/removal skills. Other abilities can benefit from Assassin’s Signet too, instead of only backstab.

This way you knock down atleast 5-7k damage from backstab combo so there won’t be any 1 shots.

My favorite idea for nerfing thieves is this:
Keep initiative, reduce all weapon skill activation times by ~0.5 seconds, add a ~0.5s global weapon skills cooldown on skill use. That way chilled means something.
And yes, I agree, Mug, as a trait, is hyperawesome, as is Assassin’s Signet.

The Boz.2038:

My favorite idea for nerfing thieves is this:
Keep initiative, reduce all weapon skill activation times by ~0.5 seconds, add a ~0.5s global weapon skills cooldown on skill use. That way chilled means something.
And yes, I agree, Mug, as a trait, is hyperawesome, as is Assassin’s Signet.

Reducing activation time a.k.a putting a cast time on almost all rogue archetype class fighting abilities is a bad idea. When I play a Thief/Rogue/Assassin I want fast attacks and high speed gameplay.

Not so sure on adding 0.5 sec global cooldown. It would make slower weapons stronger than faster weapons, this would effect my Dagger power/crit necromancer too and I don’t want that.

Chill not affecting Thief and initiative was on purpose decision that arenanet made. They answered it in beta questions. They said that certain conditions affect certain classes more than others and gave confusion damaging thief more than others as example I think.

I was skeptical when the post started “I a very good Thief player”, but this seems like a rational analysis with some interesting ideas. Offloading some of that front-loaded damage and distributing it over a duration maintains PvE DPS potential (if done right) while releasing the one-shot syndrome in PvP.

Not that Backstab is the Thief PvE spec, and this might even increase Thief PvE DPS viability, depending on where they sit now in the whole scheme of things (I don’t Dungeon/PvE much, so I have no idea what that landscape is like).

Sounds like a good idea to me, how would you nerf the bleedstack spec?

ehtom.5047:

Sounds like a good idea to me, how would you nerf the bleedstack spec?

I wouldn’t. Condition removal/transfer counters that spec like a boss.

If everyone on your team takes 2-3 condition removal utilities, then yes…

Most condition removal abilities are on 30s cooldowns.

It is completely unreasonable to expect people to “counter” condition damage builds with such abilities.

nerf backstab, rebuff pw.

100b does 20k damage. PW does 6k damage (in sPVP)

100b is a channel.
PW is a stun.

ilJumperMT.4871:

nerf backstab, rebuff pw.

100b does 20k damage. PW does 6k damage (in sPVP)

Can easily dodge hundred blades. PW is a much more annoying skill.

It’s kind of funny when people give balance ideas. 50% is a big number, and would pretty much make thieves cooldown based, more cooldown based than they already are. If they lower backstab damage that would be fine, but then what damage do thieves have really, think about. Outside of PW and Backstab no one has found a good damage build yet.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

It’s kind of funny when people give balance ideas. 50% is a big number, and would pretty much make thieves cooldown based, more cooldown based than they already are. If they lower backstab damage that would be fine, but then what damage do thieves have really, think about. Outside of PW and Backstab no one has found a good damage build yet.

That trait should be removed, but arenanet won’t do that so a -50% in effectiveness is good enough. 4-6k damage on Steal is not balanced.

Please show me this 4-6k damage on Steal on a balanced geared opponent. On all the golems in Heart of the Mists on a non-crit mug does around 1-2k. So for every thief build that isn’t rolling heavy crit chance and crit damage – Steal w/mug does appropriate damage for a trait. Just because a glass cannon thief can do 4-6k on a 45 second cooldown on a crit doesn’t mean it’s OP. You nerf mug and you just force every thief to be a glass cannon to do decent mug damage.

bwookie.3807:

Please show me this 4-6k damage on Steal on a balanced geared opponent. On all the golems in Heart of the Mists on a non-crit mug does around 1-2k. So for every thief build that isn’t rolling heavy crit chance and crit damage – Steal w/mug does appropriate damage for a trait. Just because a glass cannon thief can do 4-6k on a 45 second cooldown on a crit doesn’t mean it’s OP. You nerf mug and you just force every thief to be a glass cannon to do decent mug damage.

Mug is just total no brain trait, free damage on top of an ability which is already good and has almost 0 fail chance? Atleast backstab requires you to stealth, be behind the target and in melee range for high damage. What justifies 4-6k for Steal? nothing.

Mug and Assassin’s signet break backstab because they drop about 6-8k damage on top of a backstab, no thanks.

Please show me this 6-8k damage from Mug that is not a crit and why would you waste assassin’s signet on Mug when it has a fixed damage rate versus the best weapon coefficient of a stealthed backstab?

bwookie.3807:

Please show me this 6-8k damage from Mug that is not a crit and why would you waste assassin’s signet on Mug when it has a fixed damage rate versus the best weapon coefficient of a stealthed backstab?

Read the OP, it should be clear. You are making claims I didn’t. I would show you, but I don’t have my western digital 1TB storage yet, when I do I will make vids

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

bwookie.3807:

Please show me this 6-8k damage from Mug that is not a crit and why would you waste assassin’s signet on Mug when it has a fixed damage rate versus the best weapon coefficient of a stealthed backstab?

Read the OP, it should be clear. You are making claims I didn’t. I would show you, but I don’t have my western digital 1TB storage yet, when I do I will make vids

A screenshot will do. You state in the OP 5k on crit for mug which is about right. Which is based on crit chance and crit damage. A glass cannon build. Now you’re saying 6-8k which doesn’t jive. Unless you’re talking about WvW. You’re overstating your numbers with every post.

I like the Idea, my idea earlier in which I made a VERY long thread about was redesigning the thief to kind of move a little bit in comparison. To be more comparable to a necro then a warrior.

Just an example of the many changes in the rework I suggested:
For Dagger main hand:

Backstab::::
Front hit: Now does no front loaded damage, but does a Plethora of conditions on hit.
Back hit: Can still reach same damage potential as current but most of its damage is now based off a bonus. 10% damage per condition on the target and 5% per bleed stack. Base damage altered.

Heartseeker::::
Now is greyed out and unable to be activated until target reaches 40% hp.
This ability now works like backstabs back hit as well, most of its damage is based off the bonus of per condition on the target.

These changes alone, and this is only a sampler, would NOT ONLY mean the thief would have to spend a little more time in a fight to setup the big hits (even if it means backstabbing in the front, waiting for revealed to fall, stealth again, and backstab in the back) rather then relying on cooldowns. So this would be a shift from cooldown skill dependancy and allow for more player based skill on both ends. AT THE SAME TIME, this also opens more options up for more thief builds to be successful which is a win win if you ask me.

bwookie.3807:

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

bwookie.3807:

Please show me this 6-8k damage from Mug that is not a crit and why would you waste assassin’s signet on Mug when it has a fixed damage rate versus the best weapon coefficient of a stealthed backstab?

Read the OP, it should be clear. You are making claims I didn’t. I would show you, but I don’t have my western digital 1TB storage yet, when I do I will make vids

A screenshot will do. You state in the OP 5k on crit for mug which is about right. Which is based on crit chance and crit damage. A glass cannon build. Now you’re saying 6-8k which doesn’t jive. Unless you’re talking about WvW. You’re overstating your numbers with every post.

This is what I said: “Mug and Assassin’s signet break backstab because they drop about 6-8k damage on top of a backstab, no thanks.”

Mug drops 4-5k crits. Assassin Signet drops another 3-4k on top. That is around 8k combined.

I do not play a rogue but I think you have to be careful with rogue changes and do it step by step or the class might fail miserably. The problem is the huge backstab burst. However, the trinket is the problem…150% is just sick. Add mug to the scenario and it gets ridiculous as some already said.

Oh, and fix the render issues kitten

i don’t want to get into this debate again , but one thing thief outside their burst are useless tottaly , and assasin signet + steal + cnd + backstabb will never kill a half decent balanced oppenent it might kill another burst spec ( might) , but if arenanet has to nerf thieves due to other whinning i suggest they get buff tto componsate or u can just delete the class , only baddies die to a backstab thief , there’s something called stunbreaks people gott to learn how to counter seriously before ruinning a fun class like thieves

The Boz.2038:

100b is a channel.
PW is a stun.

PW has a stun, it isnt a stun, and the stun lasts less then one second, not even enough to get half the damage off

Knyx.5926:

I like the Idea, my idea earlier in which I made a VERY long thread about was redesigning the thief to kind of move a little bit in comparison. To be more comparable to a necro then a warrior.

Just an example of the many changes in the rework I suggested:
For Dagger main hand:

Backstab::::
Front hit: Now does no front loaded damage, but does a Plethora of conditions on hit.
Back hit: Can still reach same damage potential as current but most of its damage is now based off a bonus. 10% damage per condition on the target and 5% per bleed stack. Base damage altered.

Heartseeker::::
Now is greyed out and unable to be activated until target reaches 40% hp.
This ability now works like backstabs back hit as well, most of its damage is based off the bonus of per condition on the target.

These changes alone, and this is only a sampler, would NOT ONLY mean the thief would have to spend a little more time in a fight to setup the big hits (even if it means backstabbing in the front, waiting for revealed to fall, stealth again, and backstab in the back) rather then relying on cooldowns. So this would be a shift from cooldown skill dependancy and allow for more player based skill on both ends. AT THE SAME TIME, this also opens more options up for more thief builds to be successful which is a win win if you ask me.

those conditions would need to last a while then, like…8 seconds at least

i would never nerf damage on mug, at least not without a consistent CD damage on Steal or a total rehauling of the ability, which is already pretty lame and bad as it is.

Any other build, aside the backstab one, relies TOTALLY on mug for a burst.

Nerf mug damage and you basically kill all other power/crit builds, builds that are already unappealing and no good.

i would rehaul steal completely, but since it’s not going to happen anytime soon, i would simply reduce steal CD, reduce some items overall effectiveness, and reduce mug damage as it follows.

Assassin signet needs a consistent rework, since signets are already unappealing, and a simple change to " X stacks of might for Y seconds" would make signets choice even thinner.

Overall the thief is not in a bad balancing spot as people may think, but there things that indeed needs some change, even more for PvP:

Steal ( and related traits, like mug and improvisation)

Signets ( pretty underwhelming choices if not in very specific situations, like Assassin signet in the backstab build, that needs to be changed ASAP)

Some weapon skills ( Flanking strike in primis)

And other stuff.

Wolfe.3097:

Knyx.5926:

I like the Idea, my idea earlier in which I made a VERY long thread about was redesigning the thief to kind of move a little bit in comparison. To be more comparable to a necro then a warrior.

Just an example of the many changes in the rework I suggested:
For Dagger main hand:

Backstab::::
Front hit: Now does no front loaded damage, but does a Plethora of conditions on hit.
Back hit: Can still reach same damage potential as current but most of its damage is now based off a bonus. 10% damage per condition on the target and 5% per bleed stack. Base damage altered.

Heartseeker::::
Now is greyed out and unable to be activated until target reaches 40% hp.
This ability now works like backstabs back hit as well, most of its damage is based off the bonus of per condition on the target.

These changes alone, and this is only a sampler, would NOT ONLY mean the thief would have to spend a little more time in a fight to setup the big hits (even if it means backstabbing in the front, waiting for revealed to fall, stealth again, and backstab in the back) rather then relying on cooldowns. So this would be a shift from cooldown skill dependancy and allow for more player based skill on both ends. AT THE SAME TIME, this also opens more options up for more thief builds to be successful which is a win win if you ask me.

those conditions would need to last a while then, like…8 seconds at least

Well I also had from Dagger main hand for the #1 chain. The first hit would do 5s Poison, the second would do 5s Vulnerability, and the 3rd hit would do 8s of burning.
That would give us 3 condition applying attacks that don’t cost initiative, you also have dancing dagger, Cloak and dagger, Death blossom, Caltrops, venoms….. see how this synergizes the use of all abilities instead of 1-2?

I was also thinking the Front hit backstab would apply something like the following:

1 Vulnerability stack @ 8s
Poison @8s
Chill @3s
5 Bleed stacks @10s
but remember no more instant damage

It makes multiple builds more useful this way. If you are the normal glass cannon crit build, the conditions are just the prep for backstab (back hit) and Heartseeker which will hit just as hard as they do now burst wise. A condition build will still get use out of all weapon abilities (INCLUDING backstab now ) but the conditions will be the pimary form of widdling down the opponent with more options of control. A hyrbid build will get to be in the middle ground of both and still have use of, yet again, all abilities. This is just d/d too…

funny… I mean with that thread with the above redesign options included youd think the hundreds of people complaining about thief and wanting it nerfed, especially when the underlying reason is that they just want an easier (more) time to react, would have jumped on it with open arms because it does just that. Just gos to show you they are complaining just to complain and do not know how to play.

That’s because it really doesn’t matter. Being a glass cannon and dying from full to 0 or being at 75% health and getting killed by a nerfed backstab combo there is very little difference. People want to be able to have these nice 30 second fights solo but also want to be glass cannons. The answer is to roll a bunker for long fights and roll a glass cannon and stay with a buddy if you want to prevent dying to backstab thieves.

bwookie.3807:

That’s because it really doesn’t matter. Being a glass cannon and dying from full to 0 or being at 75% health and getting killed by a nerfed backstab combo there is very little difference. People want to be able to have these nice 30 second fights solo but also want to be glass cannons. The answer is to roll a bunker for long fights and roll a glass cannon and stay with a buddy if you want to prevent dying to backstab thieves.

No one has said anything about having a 30 second fight with or against a glass cannon class (please stop making up imaginary quotes). 5 seconds would be nice though……..

The problem is that the said combo from thieves basically kills easily even balanced specs not just glass cannons.

It also makes also builds of some classes problematic to play. Just look at the necro:

1. Power Builds
To have any kind of good dps you need to spec more or less glassy because the dps is pretty underwhelming otherwise. In addition this build uses mostly axe which has a range of 600. The idea of this build is to switch into death shroud for some more tankiness. Too bad that if you eat a 10k backstab, followed up by a 5k mug and some other moves leaves youhave no time to either build up life force nor is it a problem to get the last ca. 4k life of the build down. And even if you have life force the rogue can just stealth and when you leave DS to heal finish you.

Spec for being more tanky? Well, to build up life fore at a reasonable rate you use a trait which gives you LF on crit and has a 66% to trigger. Good luck with that build when you have a crit chance of say 10-15%.

2. Condition builds
To make this build work I need runes which prolong bleedings but I have usually 200 bonus in toughness and 100 in health from traits. That’s something in my book. Nevertheless I get backstabed for ca. 8k-10k. Now add to the scenario that bleeds to slow damage and that they can get wiped and it is a nasty uphill battle with really no room to even make a tiny mistake.

I win some and I lose some on this build and you may even say it is balanced. However, it is not. Simply because in such a fight I never ever had the feeling that when I lost that the thief player was better but I realized that I cast one spell at the wrong time or that the rng was at the beginning of the fight against me and I had simply next to no life left and the fight was basically over.

The bad thing is, the thief can just stealth and reset the fight once he screws up badly.

Note: I am referring solely on those backstab + trinket builds here.

I really like OP’s starting post and the way to reduce thief instant gib capabilities. I too think backstab itself is not overpowered, but when a first tier trait grants you an immediate 5-6k crit that’s pretty insane. I wouldn’t complain with a 50% damage nerf to a freakin’ first tier trait, it dominates every other first tier trait in Deadly Arts and there is NO reason not to grab it at this point should you even put 10 points into Deadly Arts.

And then his Assassin’s signet suggestion, that’s also something I wouldn’t complain with. Even if it’s just might being added in rather than 50% more damage for one attack, this would make that signet more powerful for sword mainhand and pistol mainhand as well, rather than feeling exclusive to dagger while still granting more damage to a backstab / follow up of damage there after. In fact it might just become all around more useful, just hopefully not sinfully overpowered.

I think the only thing to really consider though is the the fact it’s passive ability is +90 power. If the active ability adds might, and then there’s traits for added might for 5 seconds after using it … it becomes a little redundant … which that’s not really my concern. It’s more or less about how effective / possibly useless the passive becomes instead of the active effect.

Of course active effect is going to be stronger … but if hardcore number crunchers find out that it’s more DPS to always use it the moment it’s up … then the passive loses it’s significance … Is all I’m saying … even though realistically in PvP you’re not going to blow it every chance it’s ready.

No matter how you look at it though … I’d love to see something like this happen so that thieves aren’t so ridiculous / focused on instant gib builds. I’ve played the build plenty, and it just doesn’t seem fair / skillful / fun to down someone in as little as three attacks. Yet any other power variation I play, seems to lack what that build has and thus loses out in it’s effectiveness, even if it’s good … and I hate being pigeonholed into specific builds when there should be in the very least (with this game’s level of customization) one other option to be able to play and still be effective with it’s own utilities.

Infusion of Shadow nerfed to 1 Initiative regen

Revelaed increased to 5 seconds

All stealth duration decreased by 1 second

Assassin Signet nerfed to grant 5 stacks of might

Heartseeker cost increased by 1

@ Parakeet
The 5s give or take is exactly what my above redesign would give all classes glass cannon or not. So we are back to the fact that people who are whining did not jump on it