Guild Wars 2

So from time to time I make a thread that defends a certain game mechanic. The forums for some reason like to all get angry together, and that sometimes leads us to write a bunch of dumb stuff.

Today’s topic is conditions as a primary damage source. Here’s why I think it’s healthy for this game:

1. Condition damage raises the skill floor/cap of the game. In one breath, we talk about how simple the game is and how we need stuff that makes it more complex. In the next, we ask the devs to make things simpler because we don’t like getting conditions on ourselves. Conditions add micromanagement to offense and defense.
2. Condition builds are tanky dps. At launch, everyone was disappointed that there were no good balanced builds, that is, some dps and some survivability. Everyone was either bunker or glass cannon. Now we have a middle ground, and yet we say we want things to go back to the way they were.
3. Conditions add meaning to team support skills. Teamwork/support is something we keep saying we want more of. Do we really mean that?

If someone feels a certain condition spec is too powerful, I’m willing to hear that out. That’s not the point of this thread, though. My only point is that conditions in general raise the complexity level of the game, allow for balanced builds, and make team support more meaningful.

If someone feels conditions as a main damage source detracts from the game, feel free to voice that opinion. Please provide specific examples—if you feel that condition specs are too tanky, provide an example of a spec that uses settler’s amulet. If you feel that condition specs are easier to play than direct damage specs, provide an example of a build you feel is easier.

hambow wars
bunker engis

too tanky, still too much dmg

Cynz.9437:

hambow wars
bunker engis

too tanky, still too much dmg

Hambow with settler’s? Haven’t seen that one yet.

Mind linking a bunker engineer build? Those are pretty rare so there’s no real way to know what build you mean when you say “bunker engineer.”

i think your mainproblem is u define tanky with settlers amulett. condition builds with rabid have the same toughness. just less healing power and more precision for more on crit procs conditions.

in the mainconcept is nothing wrong with conditions as dmg-source. but the amount of conditions that some classes can spread out and the amount of condition cleanses is not even..

and btw there is a condition build for warrior with settlers/rabid s/s longbow + possibile heal on shouts. have fun fighting against that.

hooma.9642:

i think your mainproblem is u define tanky with settlers amulett. condition builds with rabid have the same toughness. just less healing power and more precision for more on crit procs conditions.

in the mainconcept is nothing wrong with conditions as dmg-source. but the amount of conditions that some classes can spread out and the amount of condition cleanses is not even..

and btw there is a condition build for warrior with settlers/rabid s/s longbow + possibile heal on shouts. have fun fighting against that.

I asked for settler’s amulet builds because it’s popular to say that condition damage specs only need one offensive stat, so they can stack two defensive stats and still put out a lot of damage. Settler’s amulet is the only one with condition damage and two defensive stats. Also, settler’s amulet has much more toughness than rabid amulet.

Remember that cleansing negates condi damage, so there has to be more application than cleansing for conditions to even do anything significant. That’s the complexity I referenced—if it was a simple 1:1 ratio (“I have a condi on me, I’ll cleanse it”) this game would be very straightforward.

The s/s longbow warrrior build is pretty braindead, I’ll give you that. I’d argue that’s an issue with CI and healing signet. Again, the point of this thread is not specs that are OP—just because there are some OP condi specs doesn’t mean that condi damage is evil. It’s very healthy for the game, and without it, GW2 PvP would be very one-dimensional and very simple.

Guardian condition build should be the standard anet balances towards. That should sum up my own feelings right there.

Mightymealworm.8409:

Guardian condition build should be the standard anet balances towards. That should sum up my own feelings right there.

I understand your feelings, but I’d like to hear your reason for simplifying the game so much (i.e. removing condition builds/necessity for condition removal/support condition removal/tanky dps builds, as you suggest).

NevirSayDie.6235:

hooma.9642:

i think your mainproblem is u define tanky with settlers amulett. condition builds with rabid have the same toughness. just less healing power and more precision for more on crit procs conditions.

in the mainconcept is nothing wrong with conditions as dmg-source. but the amount of conditions that some classes can spread out and the amount of condition cleanses is not even..

and btw there is a condition build for warrior with settlers/rabid s/s longbow + possibile heal on shouts. have fun fighting against that.

I asked for settler’s amulet builds because it’s popular to say that condition damage specs only need one offensive stat, so they can stack two defensive stats and still put out a lot of damage. Settler’s amulet is the only one with condition damage and two defensive stats. Also, settler’s amulet has much more toughness than rabid amulet.

Remember that cleansing negates condi damage, so there has to be more application than cleansing for conditions to even do anything significant. That’s the complexity I referenced—if it was a simple 1:1 ratio (“I have a condi on me, I’ll cleanse it”) this game would be very straightforward.

The s/s longbow warrrior build is pretty braindead, I’ll give you that. I’d argue that’s an issue with CI and healing signet. Again, the point of this thread is not specs that are OP—just because there are some OP condi specs doesn’t mean that condi damage is evil. It’s very healthy for the game, and without it, GW2 PvP would be very one-dimensional and very simple.

the problem from some condi specs that are op is the amount of conditions. necro before adding burning and torment was fine in my opinion. high amount of bleed + poison and other stuff. torment+burning+terror was just overkill. condition bunker before patch where already hard to kill and dangerous, but with buffed defence utilities is harder then before. image the necro. as rapid/settler u could not refill ur lifeforcebar really fast so it wasnt exaclty a second healthbar and only usable in keysituations for eating unavoidable spikes.

s/s longbow war is op cause impale. bleeding from sword f1 is short, burning of bow f1 can be avoided. but impale is not noticable and not cleansable. u will always take a certain amount of condition dmg. that + the high amount of toughness + regen + optional "spike"heal trought shouts.

lt,dr:
the add of condition and the buffs to defencecapab. put condi bunkers in a better spot than before.

hooma.9642:

the problem from some condi specs that are op is the amount of conditions. necro before adding burning and torment was fine in my opinion. high amount of bleed + poison and other stuff. torment+burning+terror was just overkill. condition bunker before patch where already hard to kill and dangerous, but with buffed defence utilities is harder then before. image the necro. as rapid/settler u could not refill ur lifeforcebar really fast so it wasnt exaclty a second healthbar and only usable in keysituations for eating unavoidable spikes.

s/s longbow war is op cause impale. bleeding from sword f1 is short, burning of bow f1 can be avoided. but impale is not noticable and not cleansable. u will always take a certain amount of condition dmg. that + the high amount of toughness + regen + optional "spike"heal trought shouts.

lt,dr:
the add of condition and the buffs to defencecapab. put condi bunkers in a better spot than before.

I’m not trying to defend specific builds. Yes, s/s longbow is pure cheese mode. I agree with you. I’m not saying that s/s longbow is good for the game, I’m saying that conditions are good for the game even if a couple builds are out of line.

shimmerless.4560:

I’ve never heard of anyone in any game asking for “tanky DPS” to be made available… in fact in League it was something of a pejorative and seen as a major issue around mid-S2 onwards, and a lot of champs and items were nerfed or buffed for the sole purpose of toning down tanky DPS potency.

It was a major thing in these forums for something like 8 months after launch. Basically, there were zerkers and clerics, and that was it, until people figured out valkyrie ele.

only thing worse than a tanky DPS is a tanky DPS that is highly mobile. builds like that in no way increase the skill floor/cap

Okay, this is interesting to me. I wasn’t expecting that so many people would prefer to not have tanky dps. For me, it makes the game much more interesting. Back at launch, every fight was either:

1. Over in 10 seconds or less (i.e. backstab thief vs. hb warrior)
2. Unending (i.e. any build vs. bunker guard/ele)

To me, the possibility of burst vs. attrition, or attrition vs. attrition, or attrition vs. bunker, make the game more interesting. There are still burst vs. burst fights that are over quickly (let’s say, d/p thief vs. fresh air ele) but the game is just much more complex now.

Problem is pretty simple, and I’m not sure why it’s never been addressed:

1 – If you build for condi, you can have toughness, vitality/healing power, AND fantastic condi dmg. That means you can tank physical dmg and put out good damage. You can have it all.

2 – If you are built for power, you can have power, crit dmg, but you have no stat that reduces condi damage greatly like toughness does for physical damage. If you want to “reduce” condi dmg, your only option is to get more vitality but in reality it only makes you last a few more seconds. Not to mention the pvp amulets are limiting, if you want to go power and toughness/vitality you won’t have any crit chance…thus canceling the whole point of having power in the first place.

Condi will always have the advantage until those 2 points above are addressed.

NevirSayDie.6235:

If someone feels conditions as a main damage source detracts from the game, feel free to voice that opinion. Please provide specific examples—if you feel that condition specs are too tanky, provide an example of a spec that uses settler’s amulet. If you feel that condition specs are easier to play than direct damage specs, provide an example of a build you feel is easier.

Doesn’t even use a settler’s amulet.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Okay, this is interesting to me. I wasn’t expecting that so many people would prefer to not have tanky dps. For me, it makes the game much more interesting. Back at launch, every fight was either:

1. Over in 10 seconds or less (i.e. backstab thief vs. hb warrior)
2. Unending (i.e. any build vs. bunker guard/ele)

To me, the possibility of burst vs. attrition, or attrition vs. attrition, or attrition vs. bunker, make the game more interesting. There are still burst vs. burst fights that are over quickly (let’s say, d/p thief vs. fresh air ele) but the game is just much more complex now.

attrition should not kill as fast as burst..
attrition should not hold long enough like a real bunker

atm we have only attrition on classes that cant really play condition build like guard and ele.

Condition builds are too tanky and that’s the problem , considering you can’t cleanse right away , they are very strong and pass through your armor . If you think that this meta is rising the skill floor you are wrong . It’s just a massive spam , at least playing glass cannon takes some skill .

Amaterasu.6280:

Problem is pretty simple, and I’m not sure why it’s never been addressed:

That’s why I asked for settler’s amulet builds, since that’s the only condi amulet that has two defensive stats. Since the best condi builds are carrion/rabid atm, I can only deduce that the “two defensive stats” thing is not an issue, except for possibly s/s longbow, as others have mentioned. I believe that’s a problem with healing signet and cleansing ire more than the way conditions are designed, however.

Thedenofsin.7340:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzaCLMVuOmc

Doesn’t even use a settler’s amulet.

Those two players would have dominated the match on any decent builds. I mean, he flat-out states it was a sync queue at the start of the match.

hooma.9642:

attrition should not kill as fast as burst..
attrition should not hold long enough like a real bunker

atm we have only attrition on classes that cant really play condition build like guard and ele.

I agree it should not be as fast, and it’s not. Necro condispike is over the top with burning, terror, and signet of spite, but that’s the only burst of condition damage that can kill people in just a few seconds. There are plenty of burst builds that can 100-0 people in under one second, so I don’t think we can make an argument that attrition is “as fast as burst.”

a t s e.9614:

Condition builds are too tanky and that’s the problem , considering you can’t cleanse right away , they are very strong and pass through your armor . If you think that this meta is rising the skill floor you are wrong . It’s just a massive spam , at least playing glass cannon takes some skill .

There is a little strategy to application, but I was mostly talking about managing the conditions on yourself that makes the game harder. I agree that playing a glass cannon takes a lot of skill, but it would take a lot less skill if there were no conditions. Basically builds just become setup/burst/escape (cc/damage/stunbreak, like the old rush/frenzy/hb warrior builds). Super smash bros is a hard game too, but it’s very simple (just outmaneuver/out-twitch the other player).

For the record, the build I usually play is power engi, so I’m not out to “defend” my build, although I do play condition-based builds as well. I really enjoy the challenge of having to manage the conditions on me, and I think the game would be pretty simple without them. It’s already fairly simple, as a lot of people had pointed out. Do we really want to make it even less complex?

The most complex fights I’ve ever had the pleasure of taking part in had very few conditions (the poison on a Mug, the immob on an iLeap) and certainly no condition bombs.

shimmerless.4560:

The most complex fights I’ve ever had the pleasure of taking part in had very few conditions (the poison on a Mug, the immob on an iLeap) and certainly no condition bombs.

And burst vs. burst fights still happen all the time. Mesmer vs. thief is a little less common than it used to be, but that’s only because s/d thief partially shut mesmer out of the meta; it had nothing to do with condition damage.

Having burst vs. burst be the only form of meaningful fights, apart from 2v1 burst vs. bunker time trials, is pretty simplistic. E.g. September 2012-March 2013.

u cant manage the conditions.. with few exceptions the reapply rate is so fast it makes nearly no sense to try to manage conditions, except the non-dmg ones.

as long conditions are part of autoattacks u cant manage the risk/reward for using condition skills.

is it possible to stop the chain fear? Condition damage belongs to the game. But being feared for up to 6sec even if I use stunbreaker without having a chance to react is not very funny.

condition builds aren’t tanky dps atm. They’re extreme dps while being tanky, they aren’t in a middle ground. Support skills? Tell me a build that takes support skills in this meta. Do you remember the power meta? IoL? Portal? In the power meta there was team play and support skills meant something. All your points are just wrong.

The issue I have with condis is that certain classes can clear them without any effort others must use several globals and long cd skills and positioning to deal with them. This locks out classes when condis are strong – just take stock of a few months ago. I’d like some work done on condi application and their strength with little investment in the stat. Condis with 0 in condi damage should be as useless as power damage with 0 in power imo – which it just isnt.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Amaterasu.6280:

Problem is pretty simple, and I’m not sure why it’s never been addressed:

That’s why I asked for settler’s amulet builds, since that’s the only condi amulet that has two defensive stats. Since the best condi builds are carrion/rabid atm, I can only deduce that the “two defensive stats” thing is not an issue, except for possibly s/s longbow, as others have mentioned. I believe that’s a problem with healing signet and cleansing ire more than the way conditions are designed, however.

You don’t need settler’s to be tanky. Rabid is plenty in reduction of physical damage. As I said previously, there are no amulets that do the same via condi damage, and thus is why condis are stronger than physical damage. Not to mention most condi skills promote a spamming style of play…so it doesn’t help at all.

In what sense is sitting back and spamming ur hot keys to get as many conditions on your opponent balance. A build that can bunker and do decent dps, yes that fair and a well balanced build.

A build that sits back and stacks poison, torment, chill and bleeds up ur anus and then fears you into oblivion or dodge rolls and runs around with permenant swiftness before doing it all over again. bit over the top.

Amaterasu.6280:

NevirSayDie.6235:

Amaterasu.6280:

Problem is pretty simple, and I’m not sure why it’s never been addressed:

That’s why I asked for settler’s amulet builds, since that’s the only condi amulet that has two defensive stats. Since the best condi builds are carrion/rabid atm, I can only deduce that the “two defensive stats” thing is not an issue, except for possibly s/s longbow, as others have mentioned. I believe that’s a problem with healing signet and cleansing ire more than the way conditions are designed, however.

You don’t need settler’s to be tanky. Rabid is plenty in reduction of physical damage. As I said previously, there are no amulets that do the same via condi damage, and thus is why condis are stronger than physical damage. Not to mention most condi skills promote a spamming style of play…so it doesn’t help at all.

1. I thought Power scaled way better than Condition Damage, even without Precision.

2. If Vitality is the primary counter to conditions then you have an option right now: Barbarian Amulet. No extra crit damage, but you get more of that from traits and runes. Takes a hit on Power, but Power still scales better than Condition Damage, right?

Proven.2854:

Amaterasu.6280:

NevirSayDie.6235:

Amaterasu.6280:

Problem is pretty simple, and I’m not sure why it’s never been addressed:

That’s why I asked for settler’s amulet builds, since that’s the only condi amulet that has two defensive stats. Since the best condi builds are carrion/rabid atm, I can only deduce that the “two defensive stats” thing is not an issue, except for possibly s/s longbow, as others have mentioned. I believe that’s a problem with healing signet and cleansing ire more than the way conditions are designed, however.

You don’t need settler’s to be tanky. Rabid is plenty in reduction of physical damage. As I said previously, there are no amulets that do the same via condi damage, and thus is why condis are stronger than physical damage. Not to mention most condi skills promote a spamming style of play…so it doesn’t help at all.

1. I thought Power scaled way better than Condition Damage, even without Precision.

2. If Vitality is the primary counter to conditions then you have an option right now: Barbarian Amulet. No extra crit damage, but you get more of that from traits and runes. Takes a hit on Power, but Power still scales better than Condition Damage, right?

How exactly does power scale better than condi dmg when power goes hand in hand with 2 other stats in order to reach it’s full potential? For power to excel you need both precision + crit dmg. For condi dmg to excel you need….wait for it….CONDI DMG! Big surprise. That means you need to invest in 3 stats for power to work efficiently, while investing in 1 stat for condi dmg to work efficiently. Power scales better than condi dmg?

NevirSayDie.6235:

Mightymealworm.8409:

Guardian condition build should be the standard anet balances towards. That should sum up my own feelings right there.

I understand your feelings, but I’d like to hear your reason for simplifying the game so much (i.e. removing condition builds/necessity for condition removal/support condition removal/tanky dps builds, as you suggest).

OK, so ele might be a better example, but guard is close. Let me explain my thoughts on this. First, we need to categorize conditions.

You have damaging conditions, utility conditions, cc conditions and general non-condition cc. Some conditions contain elements from more than one category.

Damaging: Bleed, Burn, Torment, Confusion
(Hybrid) Poison
Utility: Weakness, Vulnerability, Blind
(Hybrid) Chilled
Control Conditions: Cripple, Fear, Immobilize

Non Condition CC: Stun, knockdown, daze, push, pull, launch, sink, float.

Now, every class has access to a handful of the effects above. The “condition spam” problem what most people notice occurs on two opposite end of this spectrum. Too much access to damaging conditions, and/or too much access to CC (whether or not it is condition or effect is irrelevant here). The reason for this is that damaging conditions and cc have very tangible effects on the player. You cannot NOT notice them. Now CC is another topic, but let me say how I would prefer damaging conditions be dealt with.

I think that access to damaging conditions should be limited to 2 per class mechanic, a primary condition and a secondary. Third and fourth conditions could be applied via sigils and/or runes for ‘cover’ conditions. Example:

Elementalist: Primary-Burning (from fire attunement), Secondary-Bleed (from earth attunement) The other attunements offer non-damage conditions. This provides a healthy amount of variety without the ‘spam’.

Guardian: Primary-Burning, Secondary-Retaliation* (Well, its not really a condition, but I think the retaliation boon tries to fit in here for the guard.)

How I would like to see the other classes: Change skills so each class has native access to only 2 DAMAGE conditions. (does not include utility, control)

Necromancer: Primary-Torment, Secondary-Poison

Ranger: Primary-Poison, Secondary-Burning

Warrior: Primary-Bleed, Secondary-Burning

Thief: Primary-Poison, Secondary-Bleed

Mesmer: Primary-Confusion, Secondary-Torment

Engineer: Primary-Burning, Secondary-Confusion

Or something like this. I think it would still allow for a lot of Condition Damage potential, especially if the right 2 or 3 classes got together. It does, however, prevent a class from relying on their own conditions alone to take down enemies.

hooma.9642:

u cant manage the conditions.. with few exceptions the reapply rate is so fast it makes nearly no sense to try to manage conditions, except the non-dmg ones.

as long conditions are part of autoattacks u cant manage the risk/reward for using condition skills.

Managing conditions doesn’t mean keeping your bar clean all the time, because if that were possible, conditions would be pointless. It means keeping the most dangerous ones off you, dodging bigger cooldowns, and actively mitigating the damage you take through conditions. It’s hard, but I thought that’s what we wanted.

Lupanic.6502:

is it possible to stop the chain fear? Condition damage belongs to the game. But being feared for up to 6sec even if I use stunbreaker without having a chance to react is not very funny.

Again, I’m not defending any specific builds. I also think chain fear (that works off a random proc, an instant-cast skill, and an AoE) is silly.

ahuba.6430:

condition builds aren’t tanky dps atm. They’re extreme dps while being tanky, they aren’t in a middle ground. Support skills? Tell me a build that takes support skills in this meta. Do you remember the power meta? IoL? Portal? In the power meta there was team play and support skills meant something. All your points are just wrong.

They do significantly less damage than burst builds while being significantly more survivable, which pretty much seems pretty much like middle ground to me. I do remember the power meta. I was referring to party cleansing as support, mostly by support guardians but also engineers, eles, and rangers.

Coulter.2315:

The issue I have with condis is that certain classes can clear them without any effort others must use several globals and long cd skills and positioning to deal with them. This locks out classes when condis are strong – just take stock of a few months ago. I’d like some work done on condi application and their strength with little investment in the stat. Condis with 0 in condi damage should be as useless as power damage with 0 in power imo – which it just isnt.

I agree that burning is pretty strong even without condition damage. I don’t agree that condition builds have locked any profession out of the meta. Mesmer and ele are the only two professions that saw below-average use over the last few months, and that was because s/d thief outclassed them in everything, not because of conditions.

Peow peow.2189:

In what sense is sitting back and spamming ur hot keys to get as many conditions on your opponent balance. A build that can bunker and do decent dps, yes that fair and a well balanced build.

A build that sits back and stacks poison, torment, chill and bleeds up ur anus and then fears you into oblivion or dodge rolls and runs around with permenant swiftness before doing it all over again. bit over the top.

A balanced build means a build that is not a pure bunker and not a pure glass cannon. It has some offense and some defense. I didn’t mean to say that all condition builds are “balanced,” apologies.

Amaterasu.6280:

You don’t need settler’s to be tanky. Rabid is plenty in reduction of physical damage. As I said previously, there are no amulets that do the same via condi damage, and thus is why condis are stronger than physical damage. Not to mention most condi skills promote a spamming style of play…so it doesn’t help at all.

Okay, so your issue is with rabid amulet, as carrion would be fine in your book (essentially the same as zerker, just an extra 2500 hitpoints in exchange for lower damage). If rabid was changed to condi/prec/vitality would it be better?

Mightymealworm.8409:

cut

I really like that idea because condi specs would really have to work hard to cover their two damaging conditions. Unfortunately that would be a massive nerf and would result in the end of condition specs for a while. Maybe application could be nerfed, but damage could be buffed? Otherwise it seems simpler to just remove the condition damage stat from the game.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Amaterasu.6280:

You don’t need settler’s to be tanky. Rabid is plenty in reduction of physical damage. As I said previously, there are no amulets that do the same via condi damage, and thus is why condis are stronger than physical damage. Not to mention most condi skills promote a spamming style of play…so it doesn’t help at all.

Okay, so your issue is with rabid amulet, as carrion would be fine in your book (essentially the same as zerker, just an extra 2500 hitpoints in exchange for lower damage). If rabid was changed to condi/prec/vitality would it be better?

Yes and no. I don’t have much problems with carrion. However to be fair, I would say it would be nice if zerker gave around 200 more vitality. The problem with condi dmg is that you only need 1 single stat for it to be successful, where as with power, you need both precision + crit dmg in order for power to work.

But yes, rabid/settlers is the main problem because the toughness just reduces physical damage a lot…not to mention a lot of the problematic meta builds like spirit rangers, hambow warriors, already calls for 30 into their defensive trait line.

In my opinion, if you are going to do a lot of dmg, you should not have amazing survivability. Thieves are prime examples of this…you have to invest everything into dps and be the squishiest thing – which is fair in logic, but you have condi builds and the current hambow warriors which has the best of both worlds, and that’s unfair.

The problem I have with condition is not exactly related to their power level but how they are applied.

Following my view of how conditions should play out in an ideal is they should interact intelligently with condition removal. This implies they cannot be spammed as throwing up well, an absolutely ridiculous amount of junk conditions ruins that interaction. Or conversely causes the need for condition removal to reach the same level ultimately leading to a decrease in level of interaction because of how passive things have to become for a player to keep up.

So imo, remove all condition on hit procs, remove all conditions on autoattacks unless it is only on the 3rd chain. Then cut back on the availability of removal and increase the effectiveness of conditions on skills while making sure those skills can also be reacted to normally. This is obviously a very basic description of what needs to be done. Ultimately all the skills would need to be reevaluated with proper principals in mind.

Result, well we are no longer playing Gw2. We are instead on our way to a competitive game which obviously can’t be synonymous to Gw2.

Amaterasu.6280:

Proven.2854:

Amaterasu.6280:

NevirSayDie.6235:

Amaterasu.6280:

Problem is pretty simple, and I’m not sure why it’s never been addressed:

That’s why I asked for settler’s amulet builds, since that’s the only condi amulet that has two defensive stats. Since the best condi builds are carrion/rabid atm, I can only deduce that the “two defensive stats” thing is not an issue, except for possibly s/s longbow, as others have mentioned. I believe that’s a problem with healing signet and cleansing ire more than the way conditions are designed, however.

You don’t need settler’s to be tanky. Rabid is plenty in reduction of physical damage. As I said previously, there are no amulets that do the same via condi damage, and thus is why condis are stronger than physical damage. Not to mention most condi skills promote a spamming style of play…so it doesn’t help at all.

1. I thought Power scaled way better than Condition Damage, even without Precision.

2. If Vitality is the primary counter to conditions then you have an option right now: Barbarian Amulet. No extra crit damage, but you get more of that from traits and runes. Takes a hit on Power, but Power still scales better than Condition Damage, right?

How exactly does power scale better than condi dmg when power goes hand in hand with 2 other stats in order to reach it’s full potential? For power to excel you need both precision + crit dmg. For condi dmg to excel you need….wait for it….CONDI DMG! Big surprise. That means you need to invest in 3 stats for power to work efficiently, while investing in 1 stat for condi dmg to work efficiently. Power scales better than condi dmg?

Woah, if you want to talk about “full potential” then conditions have two stats: Damage and Duration.

Power does scale well. Precision boosts it, and Crit Damage puts it over the top. But you can always stack more Power and get something out of it. Also consider that for most Glass Cannon builds you get a lot of extra Crit Damage for free from traits. Power (and Crit Damage) from traits are worth more than Condition Damage from traits. And if you choose to run Berserker you can usually kill any tanky build if you can get them still for a few seconds. Toughness gets diminishing returns since it’s the divisor in the equation.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Mightymealworm.8409:

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I really like that idea because condi specs would really have to work hard to cover their two damaging conditions. Unfortunately that would be a massive nerf and would result in the end of condition specs for a while. Maybe application could be nerfed, but damage could be buffed? Otherwise it seems simpler to just remove the condition damage stat from the game.

I would like better scaling with condi damage stat. I also think healing power should scale better as well, and cut base healing skill potency. For my suggestion to work, however, there would also have to be a huge reduction in the number of anti condition skills. I think this would be fine as then you could have your conditions up more reliably (more long term overall damage) and you wouldn’t need to center your build around “do I have enough condi cleanse?” all the time. Conditions would apply a lot of pressure (but not quick pressure) to offensive builds, and be thwarted by builds with good healing power and condition clears, who would in turn be vulnerable to burst builds. I think the game needs more rock, paper, scissors and less rockpaperscissors.

@Nevir: do you know what the problem with conditions is? It’s getting killed by a necromancer in first 10 seconds of the fight, because he has landed signet of spite and fear on you and just kept auto attacking with scepter. Or getting owned by a spirit ranger that has a ratio of shortbow skill usage of 98:2 in favor of his auto attack. Or fighting a condi mesmer that you cannot see, for all he ever does is spawn staff clones and goes into stealth.

It is not conditions that are too strong. It’s the builds that use them that are ridiculous.

NevirSayDie.6235:

1. Condition damage raises the skill floor/cap of the game. In one breath, we talk about how simple the game is and how we need stuff that makes it more complex. In the next, we ask the devs to make things simpler because we don’t like getting conditions on ourselves. Conditions add micromanagement to offense and defense.

Wait. What? Sorry, but I just couldn’t read past this. Applying conditions in the current meta, is the most braindead easymode playstyle you can possibly adapt. There’s absolutely no skills involved in spamming every single skill that has a condition attached to it.

Silferas.3841:

@Nevir: do you know what the problem with conditions is? It’s getting killed by a necromancer in first 10 seconds of the fight, because he has landed signet of spite and fear on you and just kept auto attacking with scepter. Or getting owned by a spirit ranger that has a ratio of shortbow skill usage of 98:2 in favor of his auto attack. Or fighting a condi mesmer that you cannot see, for all he ever does is spawn staff clones and goes into stealth.

It is not conditions that are too strong. It’s the builds that use them that are ridiculous.

That’s fair enough. I agree that there are some condition builds that are downright lame, like the signet of spite/insta fear combo.

Adian.8756:

NevirSayDie.6235:

1. Condition damage raises the skill floor/cap of the game. In one breath, we talk about how simple the game is and how we need stuff that makes it more complex. In the next, we ask the devs to make things simpler because we don’t like getting conditions on ourselves. Conditions add micromanagement to offense and defense.

Wait. What? Sorry, but I just couldn’t read past this. Applying conditions in the current meta, is the most braindead easymode playstyle you can possibly adapt. There’s absolutely no skills involved in spamming every single skill that has a condition attached to it.

Again, I was referring mostly to managing the conditions on yourself. Spamming condition skills is no harder or easier than spamming other skills. If you fight a necro who just lays down staff 2-5 and then scepter autos, you’ll beat him just like you’d beat a thief who did mug/backstab 22222111.

I think the problem is Agony.

They added this Condition about 6 months ago and since then they’ve be spiraling out of control.

Agony is another DPS Condition, next to Poison, Bleed, Burning and Confusion, that also helps to cover the additional Conditions.

Remove Agony and you get back to reasonable levels of Condition pressure.

This is what PvP looks like in GW2 right now.

You are taking 2500 damage per second from Bleed and Poison.
Your healing is 33% less effective.
You are crippled and move 50% more slowly.
Your skills are recharging 66% more slowly, this also makes you move 66% slower.
You are immobilized and can’t move at all for several seconds.
If you use any skill you will take 800 damage.
You can’t do anything because you are feared and taking 1000 extra damage per second.

Imagine if we added Burning too?

You can’t dodge roll while stuck in an immobilze that stacks in duration, so you want to cleanse?
Most cleanses will remove one condition, but it’s the latest one applied to you though, not the 20+ Bleeding stack that’s been overlapped by 3-4 conditions for the duration of the fight.

If you did remove these conditions most will be reapplied because the ground is covered in AoEs that pulse these conditions, or convert your boons to conditions.
You have to stay in the area because the game-mode is entirely built around standing in a small circle, a small circle the same size as all of the AoEs that apply conditions.

Or you will build up Poison and Bleeding from the enemies auto-attack spam and soon Burning will proc too for 50% up-time at 700 damage per second, no skill-shot required, just auto-attack from range.

This game has had a disgusting amount of conditions added to it. Power creep gone mad.

We have 12. Twelve conditions. 5 do damage for all professions. One can also do damage for Necros. Six! Damaging conditions…
It’s not that hard to get 12 Bleed stacks, Poison, Burning, Torment and Fear on a target as a Necro.
An average PvP build doing so would cause around 3000 damage person second on the target, the target that has no control over their character.

Spammy ranged conditions and stunlocking crowd control. The two worst mechanics, combined in GW2 for a truly terrible gaming experience.

Ezrael.6859:

…

Whew that’s a lot of conditions on you. I’d be interested to know the game mode this came from. 8v8, 5v5, solo queue, team queue?

I agree that there are some really lame skills/mechanics right now, such as signet of spite and instant fear, which is what allows a necro to easily put all those conditions up. Again, I’m not defending any specific builds/skills. I’m just saying that in general, conditions are a well-designed mechanic. The current problems with conditions came from specific buffs that weren’t thought out well, and they can be fixed with specific nerfs and fixes.

As my OP outlines, I’m mainly against the idea that condition builds are inherently overpowered because you only need “1 stat,” which is why I asked for settler’s builds. Or that they lower the skill floor/cap because they feel “spammy,” when in reality they add complexity to the game (and there’s no difference between spamming conditions and spamming direct damage, either).

That’s just from a standard 2v2 fight in normal solo queue game, but the same can be found in team queue and even 5v5 hotjoin.

Go and spectate any fight involving either an Engineer, Necro, Spirit Ranger, condi Warrior or Mesmer and you can quickly take a screenshot of a condition stack like that.

For me the main problem is that every class have acces to condis on every build so durning a teamfight one guys is getting focused and we see every posible condi from game on him 15-20 stack od bleed , then ppl say this engi or this necro is soooo OP.Ofc i am not saying that necro is in good potions when it comes to balance becouse its not , the thing is that some specs have super easy acces to bleeds,burning,poison and even if they are not runing condi build in teamfight there is a lot of might stacking , lets say guardian or warrior or dps ele get like 20 stacks of might , its + 700 condi dmg and those 3 clases have rrealy easy access to burning. So its not only like engi and necro can spam condis , the problem is bigger and idk how devs gonna fix that.

Nevir is almost like a paid plant for A-net. You want to talk about negative posts being annoying well these are just as bad in the opposite direction.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Or that they lower the skill floor/cap because they feel “spammy,” when in reality they add complexity to the game (and there’s no difference between spamming conditions and spamming direct damage, either).

[sarcasm] But conditions are evil, they will hit you after you got initially been hit. [/sarcasm]

the problem are all those misinformations about conditions:

1. you only need one stat (rarely two stats)
2. invulnerability, blind, blocks, dodge don’t work, you can only cleans them
3. you are able to make condition bunkers (actually we are forced to do so by stats)
4. they deal much more damage then power builds (they are normally No1 and 2 in the death statistics)
5. condition builds one hit everything
6. WvW-players complaining in sPvP forums, because you can get >30% more stats there.
7. every condition is applied by a condition player and not one of those weak ones from power builds
8. codnition build = auto attacking
   I think this was all.

I think you are right, conditions are OK, there are some skills and builds that are no balanced, but overall conditions are fine and needed. Without them we will end up with the old bunker-wars.

builds
condition pet builds:
I think there is a general design flaw, that pets do not scale with the owners stats. So every ranger with a cat gets his 4k+ crits, no matter what armor he is wearing. I think they should scale with your build, so you don’t end up with a strong hybrid build.
terrormancer:
Is really strong because of the complete lose of control, that can really suck. That makes him strong not the damage by itself. They should probably consider to change corrupt stability to weakness or cripple instead of fear, so you are able to counter it.
mesmer:
He “only” has to spam clones and they do the job. The enemy gets every condition randomly applied, while the mesmer is hiding some where.
condition warrior:
I think the strength of a condition warrior is the longbow, especially the “burst skill” that grants huge AoE burning with small CD. I would change this skill with #3 (explosive arrow) because that skill is really a burst.

skills
Sunspirit:
That skill is totally OP. up to 70% chance to apply burning for the whole party, that is just insane. 20-30% on crit chance would be fine, i think.
on crit effects:
They are just bad designed, the ICD should also trigger, when they get blocked. They should not be unpreventable.

some random thoughts:
- real offensive stat combination (condi dmg| duration| precision)
- “nerf” condition duration on runes and move it to the armor stats (same % as crit damage)
- change rabid to (condi dmg | vita | preci) so the build is more effected by power builds, but still get some survivability.

Ezrael.6859:

That’s just from a standard 2v2 fight in normal solo queue game, but the same can be found in team queue and even 5v5 hotjoin.

Go and spectate any fight involving either an Engineer, Necro, Spirit Ranger, condi Warrior or Mesmer and you can quickly take a screenshot of a condition stack like that.

I don’t think I’ve seen 23 stacks on someone for a very long time. It reminds me of caltrop thieves last year actually. I mean theoretically a couple necros could pump out 23 stacks of bleed to someone very quickly. But that’s purely theoretical, only if no bleed stacks are avoided or cleansed.

brannigan.9810:

Nevir is almost like a paid plant for A-net. You want to talk about negative posts being annoying well these are just as bad in the opposite direction.

You can easily find me talking about things I don’t like as well, such as skyhammer in solo queue, 8v8 hotjoin, signet of spite, cleansing ire, and healing signet. I’m sorry for being too positive. In the future, I’ll try to be much more pessimistic!

NevirSayDie.6235:

Ezrael.6859:

…

Whew that’s a lot of conditions on you. I’d be interested to know the game mode this came from. 8v8, 5v5, solo queue, team queue?

I agree that there are some really lame skills/mechanics right now, such as signet of spite and instant fear, which is what allows a necro to easily put all those conditions up. Again, I’m not defending any specific builds/skills. I’m just saying that in general, conditions are a well-designed mechanic. The current problems with conditions came from specific buffs that weren’t thought out well, and they can be fixed with specific nerfs and fixes.

As my OP outlines, I’m mainly against the idea that condition builds are inherently overpowered because you only need “1 stat,” which is why I asked for settler’s builds. Or that they lower the skill floor/cap because they feel “spammy,” when in reality they add complexity to the game (and there’s no difference between spamming conditions and spamming direct damage, either).

Signet of Spite and Doom have been in this game since launch and no one ever complained about them prior to the Dumbfire patch.

Necro was considered one of the lower tier classes in WvW/PvP prior to this patch – what changed?

Dumbfire.

Also realise, not every Necro is a condition Necro – i play a power Necro and Doom remains one of my only defensive mechanics besides going into DS and trying to facetank the DPS.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Ezrael.6859:

…

As my OP outlines, I’m mainly against the idea that condition builds are inherently overpowered because you only need “1 stat,” which is why I asked for settler’s builds. Or that they lower the skill floor/cap because they feel “spammy,” when in reality they add complexity to the game (and there’s no difference between spamming conditions and spamming direct damage, either).

Lets please also not forget power dmg can be mitigated by toughness, vitality, blocking, blind, weakness, cripple and chilled. Condition damage ignores toughness and even if you are blinding, weakened, immo you can still lay lame condi circles with staff or longbow like nothing got you. And what’s more? It’s unblockable.
The past 4 month of condi meta is the worst gaming experience and exact the reason why many people no longer play including me.
Necro dumbfire was a dumb idea in the first place, and buff the captain-do-it all to counter it make it even worse. I still remember how it feels when I landed all smoke field, steal backstab combo perfectly to beat a warrior on point, he just launch up like a rocket and take mid point fight 4v3 with full hp 4 sec later while I had to sit on the far point decap it for the point lost in stealth.

ahuba.6430:

Tell me a build that takes support skills in this meta. Do you remember the power meta? IoL? Portal? In the power meta there was team play and support skills meant something. All your points are just wrong.

this, power meta is 100 times more cooperative than current meta. People actually bring portal, blast water finisher, time warp, and people actually bring support builds such as auramancer, venomshare and etc.
IMHO the first step anet needs to do of fixing everything to rollback everything prior to dhuumfire. It will make a lot of people happy.

@NevirSayDie.6235

Teamwork is abysmal in GW2.
Condi dmg does nothing for it.
People will NEVER complain about the existance of support/debuff related conditions
(maybe OP’ness of, but never existence)
They will only do that for dps condi’s.

The game is full of complications.
The game has little depth.

Conditions as a main dmg source, not necessary, but how Anet set it up, they give complications… with little depth…

They can be dropped with little if any harm to the game.
Sure more diversity of builds is good, sure having more things to watch out for can make gameplay more interesting…
But this is GW2 we are talking about, there are hundreds of kittened and minute animations we have to constantly stare at the screen to catch…

Having to stare at a condi bar at the same time does no one any favors.

Yes more build diversity is beneficial and more middle of the line builds should exist.
But the goal of that, the reason we want the middle of the line specs is to ultimately is improve gameplay…
Condi dps builds make the game play worse.

They play so terribly that they take a perc, a very large and simple perc, and turn it on its head.

Aim for fixes, not to cope with terrible concepts because somewhere in their mess of existance they have a perc or two.

Avigrus.2871:

Also realise, not every Necro is a condition Necro – i play a power Necro and Doom remains one of my only defensive mechanics besides going into DS and trying to facetank the DPS.

Apologies, I made it sound like signet of spite/doom had seen large buffs. It wasn’t just dhuumfire, it was torment, fixed spectral armor, and dhuumfire at the same time.

But again, the point of the thread isn’t that there are some builds/skill combinations that aren’t exactly awesome gameplay. There are a few ultra-cheesy power and condition builds atm, and several of them are getting adjusted heavily on Dec. 10th. That’s not really the main point of the thread, though.

A small chime in. I do not think condi both CC and Damaging are bad for the game. The issue is that they are easy to spam and are too capable of building defensively. There are many solutions but the easiest would likely be adding in more skills in like Berserker Stance where there are opportunitites not to be snared to death and fight back.

We do not need to do away with conditions as they are inherently part of the game. I think P/D and DD Death Blossom are pretty much what condi specs should be. Annoying but not the most potent dps out there. I think when you add in all the Malboro level bad breath spamming it feels like an uphill battle.

I think Dec 10th’s balance changes might help but overall condis probably need to be reworked require both condition duration and condi damage for any sort of strong DPS. If they add in diminishing returns on all CC then I think we might be on the right path.