Guild Wars 2

One of the most interesting things about the original gw was how CC was handled. To my knowledge there was only one way you could lose control of your character and that was with knockdown.

Which was easily countered if you brought the appropriate skills. Gw2 takes everything most people hate about wow and amplifies it. There are quite a bit of ways to lose control of your character and to top it off they can be chained. At least Blizzard had the decency to incorporate CC immunity in pvp.

Anet on the other hand just gives stunbreaker and stability which can be stripped!

In comparison to the original there was only knockdown. In gw2 we have:

Knockdown, Fear, Stun, Daze (to a degree), immobilize and launch. When you look at it, four of the ccs do the exact same thing but just “appear” differently.

Knockdown: Lose control of your character
Fear: Lose control of your character
Stun: Lose control of your character
Launch: Lose control of your character

I would count daze, but its only a interrupt. But I would like to add its a interesting one, since unlike the original gw1 interrupt now stops you from moving and using skills for a very brief time. In gw1, that specific skill that was interrupted was locked out. And daze only affected casting from what I remember.

If anet wanted to copy wow pvp at least they could of added some sort of balance to CC. Diminishing returns on CC would make way more sense. This would promote actual timing instead of spamming.

But perhaps Anet’s intention was to make the most spamming game possible? I don’t have the answer to that.

Spam, CC and the over abundance in AI.

Those are the things that made me quit this game.

I can’t see any of them being fixed seen as all these things have actually become worse since release. It must the direction anet want the game to go in. They obviously like the idea of spam/uncounterable mechanic (berserker stance, mark spam, bomb spam, etc), dying without controlling your character (due to insane cc like mace stun and fear chaining) and relying on ai to do everything (supply drop, spirit ranger).

They actually have buffed these aspects. There is more fear, more warrior stuns, more powerful AI and more spam THAN EVERY BEFORE.

So dont wait on a change. It will get worse not better imo.

And rather than nerf anything ever they instead just crazy buff things and make them uncounterable i-win buttons. Like warrior. Warrior having problem with condi spam? Hmm we could nerf condi spam and passive condi removals (emphatic bond is so op – or it would be when spam is reduced) or we could just add an uncounterable 10 second invincibility mode. Complete fail.

There are enough stun breakers to handle this in tpvp… usually you don’t spend your time stun locked unless you put yourself in a very bad situation.

The thing is – everything that should not be easy to abuse is done in overkill. This game is heading far from a game where a balanced build is viable to creating their own version of the spamtastic trinity – CC,Condition,Stealth.

Since anet does not add anything like diminishing returns or immunity in the form of repeated use then basically you don’t even need to think about when to use these utility moves – you just do it. Theres not much of a penalty if you can just keep spamming stuff until it hits. Whats even better is if you can do it from afar and it aoe’s and it does a nice chunk of damage while giving you boons of some sort.

This type of gameplay now is one where you don’t think and you just do. Hardly inclusive of anything that requires in depth strategy.

Said there was too much CC in the game nearly a year ago and no one believed it. DR is a kittenty hack fix btw, that was only implemented in the first place because that game was balanced for pve and had longer durations than recharges on their CC.

Haha. Man, seen it all.

The CC in GW2 is so game I can’t actually believe people would complain about it. Most CC lasts for 2 seconds tops, maybe more with MoA but meh.

There isn’t even a stun that goes longer then 4 seconds is there? Lots of CC? Doubt that.

There’s also the fun of ‘invis’. Unlike other MMO’s where it’s long time invis, vibe of someone lurking adding suspense/tension.
GW is short invis, but can re-invs over & over at will. Making it extra cheap, escape any time I don’t think Im going to win.

Then there’s all the ‘passive’. Lots of the ‘strongest’ stuff in PvP happens automatically.

The push to heavy condition meta game, so the ‘counter’ is usually clean/dispel myself. Or stand near a class that dose it passively AoE.

Then, the fun of trying to get in and learn the ropes. HotJoin is people not actually playing the match, just gank farming up ranks. For Torny, you want a full team, that you ‘train’ with each day, or at least for hours each week.
I was hoping that the SoloQ was going to fix this, giving somewhere to play the match, with others around your same skill level.
So far, it seems to be the high skill level players, when there team isn’t up for it. Upset that people who don’t PvP all day, every day, are killing there rating…

Im not sure if SoloQ is too new and it will get better as ranks get worked out. Or if there’s just not people que’ing to not all get thrown in together anyway…

But yeh, first of many, many MMO’s I haven’t got ‘sucked into’ PvP. Sad, as Id really like to, and love lots of the ideas here…

Diminishing Returns are close to the worst thing they could add. When you use CC, it needs to work, unless your enemy chooses break it / stability.
Saying DRs are good for a game makes me want to punch your kitten (not cencored).

Sabull.5670:

Diminishing Returns are close to the worst thing they could add. When you use CC, it needs to work, unless your enemy chooses break it / stability.
Saying DRs are good for a game makes me want to punch your kitten (not cencored).

It would work, when you time it. What you want is for the button mashing CC spam to always work. I disagree, it only promotes unintelligent gameplay, where you don’t think about consequences because there aren’t any.

DR is needed in CC spamming games unless you get what we have now, spamming cc. Players locking down others with chain CC. Hold up, before you even think it requires coordination. It doesn’t because there is no slip ups. With DR CC will require coordination, isn’t that what should be ideal in a team based game?

Anet already did the unthinkable and copied the cookie cutter mmo pvp (spam buttons and cc). Abandoning their own unique and innovative pvp system in gw1. So if they are going to copy and paste then they might as well paste the rest aka diminishing returns.

Actually, the crowd control in Guild Wars 2 is really weak, compared to other MMOs. I was pleasantly surprised about that when I first started playing.

Rofl, laughed so much at the amount of stupidity in the thread.
DR is kitten, stability/break stun is much better, makes the game so much more tactical.
In WoW, not control spam ?
Take a rogue, use this CC, this other, he uses trinket, now u use CC 3 then 4 and ha ha he’s dead I’m so good.
Yeah, as if it was not broken …
Keep WoW kitten out of GW2, only take the good things.

I think they should make it so that if you are already CC’d, you are immune to CC for that duration, BUT when a skill is interrupted, it goes to full cool down. This would encourage consideration and precision over mindless spam.

KratosAngel.7289:

Rofl, laughed so much at the amount of stupidity in the thread.
DR is kitten, stability/break stun is much better, makes the game so much more tactical.
In WoW, not control spam ?
Take a rogue, use this CC, this other, he uses trinket, now u use CC 3 then 4 and ha ha he’s dead I’m so good.
Yeah, as if it was not broken …
Keep WoW kitten out of GW2, only take the good things.

Sounds just like gw2, except stunbreaker has taken the place of trinket of the horde/alliance. None of this sounds anything like gw1 btw.

Aza.2105:

Sabull.5670:

Diminishing Returns are close to the worst thing they could add. When you use CC, it needs to work, unless your enemy chooses break it / stability.
Saying DRs are good for a game makes me want to punch your kitten (not cencored).

It would work, when you time it. What you want is for the button mashing CC spam to always work. I disagree, it only promotes unintelligent gameplay, where you don’t think about consequences because there aren’t any.

DR is needed in CC spamming games unless you get what we have now, spamming cc. Players locking down others with chain CC. Hold up, before you even think it requires coordination. It doesn’t because there is no slip ups. With DR CC will require coordination, isn’t that what should be ideal in a team based game?

Anet already did the unthinkable and copied the cookie cutter mmo pvp (spam buttons and cc). Abandoning their own unique and innovative pvp system in gw1. So if they are going to copy and paste then they might as well paste the rest aka diminishing returns.

There is a serious flaw in your argument here.

“….isn’t that what should be ideal in a team based game?”

This isn’t a team based game

GOSH

Also what I would like to add to OPs CC in GW1.

In GW1 if you used a knock-down skill on a knock-downed foe you wasted your skill. No such punishment for spam here. You can just spam your kitten and it will stack or take on the effect of the last used CC. So yeah, you don’t need the brain here in this pvp. Just faceroll over your CC skills and you’re good to go.

Conditions didn’t stack in duration or intensity either. You had to spread poison/bleeding over all enemy team for the maximum effect. Here? Who the kitten cares about changing targets! Focus someone and stack the kitten out of him!!! 25 bleeding, 25 confusion, 25 vulnerbility and 6 seconds of continuous Fear chain YEAH!

Seriously there’s just way too much of mindless spam in this game right now. And AI should also be removed from arenas.

But it won’t happen.

Diage.6451:

Aza.2105:

Sabull.5670:

Diminishing Returns are close to the worst thing they could add. When you use CC, it needs to work, unless your enemy chooses break it / stability.
Saying DRs are good for a game makes me want to punch your kitten (not cencored).

It would work, when you time it. What you want is for the button mashing CC spam to always work. I disagree, it only promotes unintelligent gameplay, where you don’t think about consequences because there aren’t any.

DR is needed in CC spamming games unless you get what we have now, spamming cc. Players locking down others with chain CC. Hold up, before you even think it requires coordination. It doesn’t because there is no slip ups. With DR CC will require coordination, isn’t that what should be ideal in a team based game?

Anet already did the unthinkable and copied the cookie cutter mmo pvp (spam buttons and cc). Abandoning their own unique and innovative pvp system in gw1. So if they are going to copy and paste then they might as well paste the rest aka diminishing returns.

There is a serious flaw in your argument here.

“….isn’t that what should be ideal in a team based game?”

This isn’t a team based game

GOSH

True True, I can’t deny any of what you said here.

I agree and disagree.
I think there should be a penalty or defense against spamming certain CC (see my post build (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Necromancer-Grey-Bar-Build/first#post2646449)), but I don’t want it removed.
From the sounds of it, some of you do. =( I just came from a game that took this CC hate to a new level and turned everything into a DPS race, and GW2 doesn’t have enough healing for that to mean much more than the literal term (which I like, since healing then becomes tactical not spam).
So, quick summary- see my build, GW2 please add some type of defense or penalty against CC spamming, and please please please for the love of everything that exists in this world do NOT NOT NOT make it a DPS race…

Just my $.02 =).

samo.1054:

In GW1 if you used a knock-down skill on a knock-downed foe you wasted your skill. No such punishment for spam here. You can just spam your kitten and it will stack or take on the effect of the last used CC. So yeah, you don’t need the brain here in this pvp. Just faceroll over your CC skills and you’re good to go.

In GW1 if you got knocked down, you stayed knocked down.
In GW2 if you get spammed with CC, a single stability counters all of it.

The comparison is poor. There are problems with spam, counter-control and control are better when they are about counter play than they are about DR and “oops, your CC failed”.

Vena.8436:

samo.1054:

In GW1 if you used a knock-down skill on a knock-downed foe you wasted your skill. No such punishment for spam here. You can just spam your kitten and it will stack or take on the effect of the last used CC. So yeah, you don’t need the brain here in this pvp. Just faceroll over your CC skills and you’re good to go.

In GW1 if you got knocked down, you stayed knocked down.
In GW2 if you get spammed with CC, a single stability counters all of it.

The comparison is poor. There are problems with spam, counter-control and control are better when they are about counter play than they are about DR and “oops, your CC failed”.

I disagree, compared to the rate which CC is applied and the abundant amount of skills that apply CC, stability is not balanced in comparison. Only a small fraction of skills grant stability. And some classes have situation access to it.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stability

But when we look at CC:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Immobilized
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fear
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Launch
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Knockdown
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Daze
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Push
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pull

You can call it intelligent play if you like, but there is nothing intelligent about it. It actually promotes unitelligent gameplay since there is no “messing” up so to speak. A uncoordinated group can successfully lockdown a player.

Lets say if they did use stability right? There are different variations of loss of control that can be applied afterwards. In a organized group, they can simply wait for stability to fade and continue the cc lock down. Or they can boon strip it.

I love the way pvp is going and Anet is doing a great job. By the way, GW1 is that way >
so get out and stop trying to break the game like so many mmo’s do when they listen to the whiners.

Games with DR generally don’t have a million different ways to get out of crowd control. For instance, in WoW they have DR, but you only get one “stunbreak” in the form of a trinket on a 2 minute cooldown (which also means you don’t get to use a DPS trinket). In GW2 you have stability and even AoE stability as well as tons of abilities you have the option of equipping as utility that have stunbreaks. Let’s not forget all the traits that activate on different types of crowd control etc or the fact that you can completely block, dodge, or evade a CC ability in many cases.

If you think CC in this game is bad, I don’t know what to tell you. Almost every MMO I have ever played had far worse CC. WoW even had far worse CC, and DAoC was the king of ridiculous CC (AoE “mesmerize” which lasted long enough for a group to kill your group 1 by 1 while you sat there helpless and let’s not forget AoE stun either.. good placement on a AoE stun and a couple of PBAoE spiritmasters could wipe double or triple their numbers easily).

CC=good idea until you get hit my multiple sources and facerolled.
Conditions=good idea until you get permastacked.
stealth=good idea until players figured out how to abuse it.
Shouts=good idea until players learned how to abuse them.
swiftness=good idea until some builds get it perma with passives.
dodge=good idea until vigor heavy builds abuse it.
Block=good idea. So far it remains fairly ok.
Animation=nice effect until you have way too many on screen.
pet=good idea until there is 8 of them and only 4 actual players.

What your mentioning here is not specific to anyone thing. The PvP dynamic was based on a good idea’s..but it has gotten to the point players have zeroed in on specific aspects and put all their eggs in that basket and now it becomes a problem.

Lesson learned?..Do less. Do it better. Sometimes the layering of ‘more-more-more’ adds complications or sets up situations where players can abuse it, even though it was not intended to be used that way.

Perfect example so far today. Thief. 7 chained stealths for 20+ second duration. Probably not how Anet intended it to be used,..but players found a way.

Aza.2105:

I disagree, compared to the rate which CC is applied and the abundant amount of skills that apply CC, stability is not balanced in comparison. Only a small fraction of skills grant stability. And some classes have situation access to it.

Like I said, spam is a problem. Counter play via stability/stun break vs. control is not and is in fact superior to DR. There is obviously an issue in that there is either too little or too much stability vs. control in current team comps or the ability for team comps to bring stability. For example, introducing it into traits that cause skills to add brief moments of stability would be a good direction, in my opinion. It brings more viable traits, less passive play (requires proper skill activation), and stability is a hard punisher for willy-nilly spamming your control.

Conditions and certain controls are a bit too easily accessed by classes at the moment (necro, warrior respectively) which is certainly a problem.

Aza.2105:

Lets say if they did use stability right? There are different variations of loss of control that can be applied afterwards. In a organized group, they can simply wait for stability to fade and continue the cc lock down. Or they can boon strip it.

It baffles me that you treat the application of stability as if it were some solo player, yet treat the counter of it and subsequent control chaining as if it were a team effort. Yes, an organized group, with control and boon removal, will beat a guy with stability.

empathic bond is ever only OP, if you consider a ranger without a pet OP…. EB no longer removes 3 conditions, it puts it on the pet, which dies almost instantly.

First of all, I do agree that spam is an issue.

Secondly, fear isn’t a crowd control. It certainly looks that way because it takes the control of your character away from you, but it is actually a condition. A stunbreaker will take you out of fear, but stability will not stop you from getting it. It is the “crowd control” that has a slight advantage over the other crowd controls.

but stability will not stop you from getting it.

yea it does.
“Cannot be knocked down, pushed back, launched, stunned, dazed, floated, sunk, or feared.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stability

Lets not forget that Stun and Daze can be stripped as well with a stun-breaker, it immediately cancels the effects of Stun/Daze.

Falkor.7932:

Lets not forget that Stun and Daze can be stripped as well with a stun-breaker, it immediately cancels the effects of Stun/Daze.

while that’s just fine, there’s a lot of spammable CC’s. warriors that use mace/shield and hammer can chain CC someone for quite some time. most people only use one stunbreak, so if you’re unfortunate to get hit again, the warrior can just faceroll CC’s on you over and over.

the problem lies in the ability to just spam stuns and other CC’s

forrae.6708:

Falkor.7932:

Lets not forget that Stun and Daze can be stripped as well with a stun-breaker, it immediately cancels the effects of Stun/Daze.

while that’s just fine, there’s a lot of spammable CC’s. warriors that use mace/shield and hammer can chain CC someone for quite some time. most people only use one stunbreak, so if you’re unfortunate to get hit again, the warrior can just faceroll CC’s on you over and over.

the problem lies in the ability to just spam stuns and other CC’s

A warrior using M/Sh H has very limited mobility. The problem lies less in the fact that they can chain CC and more in the fact that you don’t know what to use your stunbreak on for maximum efficiency. There is still massive delay on Earthshaker, the only way to really land it versus a good player is to already have them in CC. Let’s not even talk about Backbreaker, the wind up might as well be a red flag telling you to pop stability, dodge, pop an evade frame. How about those ridiculously long Hammer cooldowns also? I am willing to be they are some of the longest in the game. Not going to bother making sure, it isn’t worth my time. You can check it out though.

forrae.6708:

but stability will not stop you from getting it.

yea it does.
“Cannot be knocked down, pushed back, launched, stunned, dazed, floated, sunk, or feared.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stability

yeah erm look at which classes have stability….warriors are great at cc and also have high stability. guardians have great stability…erm so mesmers other classes lack stunbreakers and stability

Ashanor.5319:

forrae.6708:

Falkor.7932:

Lets not forget that Stun and Daze can be stripped as well with a stun-breaker, it immediately cancels the effects of Stun/Daze.

while that’s just fine, there’s a lot of spammable CC’s. warriors that use mace/shield and hammer can chain CC someone for quite some time. most people only use one stunbreak, so if you’re unfortunate to get hit again, the warrior can just faceroll CC’s on you over and over.

the problem lies in the ability to just spam stuns and other CC’s

A warrior using M/Sh H has very limited mobility. The problem lies less in the fact that they can chain CC and more in the fact that you don’t know what to use your stunbreak on for maximum efficiency. There is still massive delay on Earthshaker, the only way to really land it versus a good player is to already have them in CC. Let’s not even talk about Backbreaker, the wind up might as well be a red flag telling you to pop stability, dodge, pop an evade frame. How about those ridiculously long Hammer cooldowns also? I am willing to be they are some of the longest in the game. Not going to bother making sure, it isn’t worth my time. You can check it out though.

Most people don’t even wait to use their dodge to avoid big attacks, let alone properly use their stun break.

Hell most the time people freakin dodge the moment you move toward them just auto attacking….so then you skull crack or w/e them as soon as they are done dodging because they just dodged for no reason at all.

Ashanor.5319:

forrae.6708:

Falkor.7932:

Lets not forget that Stun and Daze can be stripped as well with a stun-breaker, it immediately cancels the effects of Stun/Daze.

while that’s just fine, there’s a lot of spammable CC’s. warriors that use mace/shield and hammer can chain CC someone for quite some time. most people only use one stunbreak, so if you’re unfortunate to get hit again, the warrior can just faceroll CC’s on you over and over.

the problem lies in the ability to just spam stuns and other CC’s

A warrior using M/Sh H has very limited mobility. The problem lies less in the fact that they can chain CC and more in the fact that you don’t know what to use your stunbreak on for maximum efficiency. There is still massive delay on Earthshaker, the only way to really land it versus a good player is to already have them in CC. Let’s not even talk about Backbreaker, the wind up might as well be a red flag telling you to pop stability, dodge, pop an evade frame. How about those ridiculously long Hammer cooldowns also? I am willing to be they are some of the longest in the game. Not going to bother making sure, it isn’t worth my time. You can check it out though.

yea, i know how those are. i play a hammer mace/shield warrior sometimes. its just frustrating when one shows up when im already trying to kill two other things and then starts to chain CC.

selan.8354:

forrae.6708:

but stability will not stop you from getting it.

yea it does.
“Cannot be knocked down, pushed back, launched, stunned, dazed, floated, sunk, or feared.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stability

yeah erm look at which classes have stability….warriors are great at cc and also have high stability. guardians have great stability…erm so mesmers other classes lack stunbreakers and stability

every class has at least three stunbreaks. but you are right about stability. only a handful of classes have easy and constant access to it that doesnt require traits/RNG, and most of those are either just a couple of seconds or involve a transform of some sort. im sure people have brought this up before and all we can do is hope that with the new skills that will be introduced later in the year (if that happens) brings more to the table for others.

Velron.3729:

Ashanor.5319:

forrae.6708:

Falkor.7932:

Lets not forget that Stun and Daze can be stripped as well with a stun-breaker, it immediately cancels the effects of Stun/Daze.

while that’s just fine, there’s a lot of spammable CC’s. warriors that use mace/shield and hammer can chain CC someone for quite some time. most people only use one stunbreak, so if you’re unfortunate to get hit again, the warrior can just faceroll CC’s on you over and over.

the problem lies in the ability to just spam stuns and other CC’s

A warrior using M/Sh H has very limited mobility. The problem lies less in the fact that they can chain CC and more in the fact that you don’t know what to use your stunbreak on for maximum efficiency. There is still massive delay on Earthshaker, the only way to really land it versus a good player is to already have them in CC. Let’s not even talk about Backbreaker, the wind up might as well be a red flag telling you to pop stability, dodge, pop an evade frame. How about those ridiculously long Hammer cooldowns also? I am willing to be they are some of the longest in the game. Not going to bother making sure, it isn’t worth my time. You can check it out though.

Most people don’t even wait to use their dodge to avoid big attacks, let alone properly use their stun break.

Hell most the time people freakin dodge the moment you move toward them just auto attacking….so then you skull crack or w/e them as soon as they are done dodging because they just dodged for no reason at all.

Can you blame them? With all the particle effects going on and the lack of clear animation to some skill, dodge has became more of a instinctive skill than a intellectual one.

If they added cast bars, you would see dodge being better utilize. Until then, you will see player rolling around for no reason at all. Yet another reason why gw2 pvp is epic fail.