Guild Wars 2

Pretty straightforward: Invulnerabilities shouldn’t contest capture points since there is no counterplay to these skills. Some invulns already function like this and it should be made an across the board change.

All invulnerability classified skills do not capture points. An invluln is taking no physical or condition damage with one ability. Name one that captures a point.

tichorum.2415:

All invulnerability classified skills do not capture points. An invluln is taking no physical or condition damage with one ability. Name one that captures a point.

inb4 endure pain and zerker stance!

Harbinger.8637:

tichorum.2415:

All invulnerability classified skills do not capture points. An invluln is taking no physical or condition damage with one ability. Name one that captures a point.

inb4 endure pain and zerker stance!

Both are not invulns. You are vulnerable to condition damage while in endure pain and physical damage with zerker stance. They’re two different abilities, obviously. If they pop both are once then that is a good thing for the enemy.

Yet stealth doesn’t cap and is far from any sort invulnerability. If someone is really having trouble finding that stealthed thief on such a small node I wouldn’t blame that on stealth.

tichorum.2415:

Harbinger.8637:

tichorum.2415:

All invulnerability classified skills do not capture points. An invluln is taking no physical or condition damage with one ability. Name one that captures a point.

inb4 endure pain and zerker stance!

they pop both are once then that is a good thing for the enemy.

Yes, I commonly rejoice when my target becomes completely immune to all types of damage.

With both Warriors and Rangers able to contest points while not taking power damage (which is the primary source of damage in a spike), it’s possible for a team to contest a point with near-complete safety for extended periods - without any effort or skill besides popping one skill and backing off when it runs out.

evilapprentice.6379:

tichorum.2415:

Harbinger.8637:

tichorum.2415:

All invulnerability classified skills do not capture points. An invluln is taking no physical or condition damage with one ability. Name one that captures a point.

inb4 endure pain and zerker stance!

they pop both are once then that is a good thing for the enemy.

Yes, I commonly rejoice when my target becomes completely immune to all types of damage.

If you kite them for the remaining ticks, they are forced to sit on the node and do nothing or chase you around, ultimately not doing anything. Once they’re done with these two stances, they are extremely vulnerable.

tichorum.2415:

evilapprentice.6379:

tichorum.2415:

Harbinger.8637:

tichorum.2415:

All invulnerability classified skills do not capture points. An invluln is taking no physical or condition damage with one ability. Name one that captures a point.

inb4 endure pain and zerker stance!

they pop both are once then that is a good thing for the enemy.

Yes, I commonly rejoice when my target becomes completely immune to all types of damage.

If you kite them for the remaining ticks, they are forced to sit on the node and do nothing or chase you around, ultimately not doing anything. Once they’re done with these two stances, they are extremely vulnerable.

No, they’ve held a point for several seconds and probably done some damage to you or gotten you to blow at least one defensive cooldown.

Holding a node is doing a lot.

cheese.4739:

With both Warriors and Rangers able to contest points while not taking power damage (which is the primary source of damage in a spike), it’s possible for a team to contest a point with near-complete safety for extended periods – without any effort or skill besides popping one skill and backing off when it runs out.

All ranger invuln skills disable capturing. It was clearly indicated in there tool tip. The signet of stone change now prevents physical damage and clearly states you are open to conditions and control effects, but can still node capture. If you wish for this to be a constructive conversation, lets stick to what utilities can, and can not do. Hunters shot creates stealth. All stealth denies capture progress for the stealthed person(s) on it.

tichorum.2415:

evilapprentice.6379:

tichorum.2415:

Harbinger.8637:

tichorum.2415:

All invulnerability classified skills do not capture points. An invluln is taking no physical or condition damage with one ability. Name one that captures a point.

inb4 endure pain and zerker stance!

they pop both are once then that is a good thing for the enemy.

Yes, I commonly rejoice when my target becomes completely immune to all types of damage.

If you kite them for the remaining ticks, they are forced to sit on the node and do nothing or chase you around, ultimately not doing anything. Once they’re done with these two stances, they are extremely vulnerable.

Oh, all the player can do is continue to contest a node while practically invincible?

How is holding down a node “not doing anything” in a game based around capturing and holding nodes?

I’m glad to know that if I don’t let him get near me though, I can at least not get mauled while being almost completely helpless to stop them.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

cheese.4739:

With both Warriors and Rangers able to contest points while not taking power damage (which is the primary source of damage in a spike), it’s possible for a team to contest a point with near-complete safety for extended periods – without any effort or skill besides popping one skill and backing off when it runs out.

All ranger invuln skills disable capturing. It was clearly indicated in there tool tip. The signet of stone change now prevents physical damage and clearly states you are open to conditions and control effects, but can still node capture. If you wish for this to be a constructive conversation, lets stick to what utilities can, and can not do. Hunters shot creates stealth. All stealth denies capture progress for the stealthed person(s) on it.

Signet of Stone’s active always prevented power damage and nothing else – the change applied to all Ranger signets just removed the unreasonable 6-trait-point investment required to make actives affect the player.

As I’ve bolded in the quote: “contest points while not taking power damage” is the issue. Negating all power damage is crazy-good damage mitigation – I could maaaybe accept arguments saying that Berserker Stance should still contest points… but Endure Pain and Signet of Stone allow folks to tank through so much more than BS ever could.

I’ve said this before:

When under effects of endure pain, a person should not be able to contest or cap a point.

Endure pain – make it uncontest point
Its 60s / kitten longer than other invuln so it makes up

Zerker stance – a) make it uncontest point

b) make it -90% duration so you can interupt

Edit: make warrior human, not demi-god level

cheese.4739:

With both Warriors and Rangers able to contest points while not taking power damage (which is the primary source of damage in a spike), it’s possible for a team to contest a point with near-complete safety for extended periods – without any effort or skill besides popping one skill and backing off when it runs out.

And they leave the other two points open to take and hold…

They aren’t all on the one point…

Ayrilana.1396:

cheese.4739:

With both Warriors and Rangers able to contest points while not taking power damage (which is the primary source of damage in a spike), it’s possible for *a team to contest a point with near-complete safety for extended periods* - without any effort or skill besides popping one skill and backing off when it runs out.

And they leave the other two points open to take and hold...

And and and they can soak up the damage from the entire enemy team, and run off to defend other points when their invulns are on cooldown?

Midpoint fights are the busy ones. Having a strong contesting rotation at midpoint, with steady damage output, is very powerful. Having eyes on one of the outer points is important, as is getting to them when they’re under attack... but such low-risk, high-reward contesting of any point - that works even while outnumbered - is pretty broken.

You act as if they can spam invulnerability skills which they cannot. Warrior has like 7 seconds of blocks if they chained their skills. Rangers have even less unless I’m completely missing something. I’m not seeing how it could be effective except against people that don’t know what they’re doing.

tichorum.2415:

All invulnerability classified skills do not capture points. An invluln is taking no physical or condition damage with one ability. Name one that captures a point.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gear_Shield

Stops CC skills, attacks, and condition applications but does not stop the Engineer from contesting a point.

Thanks.

Michaeas Magister.1589:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gear_Shield

Stops CC skills, attacks, and condition applications but does not stop the Engineer from contesting a point.

Thanks.

You still have unblockable skills.

Alright. If this is such a big issue, post a video of a team preventing a point capture by invulnerability skills alone. Due to the short durations and long cool downs of these skills, it would have to be an organized team that does this as randoms in hot join would be unlikely to pull this off. Therefore, you must do this against another organized team.

Honestly, balancing around a single, very niche game mode with very arbitrary mechanics is ridiculous. It reminds me of when Mythic were scratching their heads about how to make classes that had half a bar of Taunt skills useful in pvp. If we had 3-4 different game modes ( or maps with substantially different mechanics) then the ability of two classes to sit on a point and decap it no matter how many people are wailing on them wouldn’t be such an unbalancing problem.

Ayrilana.1396:

Alright. If this is such a big issue, post a video of a team preventing a point capture by invulnerability skills alone. Due to the short durations and long cool downs of these skills, it would have to be an organized team that does this as randoms in hot join would be unlikely to pull this off. Therefore, you must do this against another organized team.

Gear Shield is a three second block on a twenty second cool down. Sixteen seconds with the Power Wrench trait which most Engineers will take if they are using the Tool Kit. That is not a very long cool down at all.

I know ArenaNet has designed the Engineer to do everything the other professions can do only better, but I think this one skill should prevent capture-point contribution. However that would mean a slight nerf to the Engineer and I know that is against their design philosophy for the profession.

Thanks.

Michaeas Magister.1589:

Ayrilana.1396:

Alright. If this is such a big issue, post a video of a team preventing a point capture by invulnerability skills alone. Due to the short durations and long cool downs of these skills, it would have to be an organized team that does this as randoms in hot join would be unlikely to pull this off. Therefore, you must do this against another organized team.

Gear Shield is a three second block on a twenty second cool down. Sixteen seconds with the Power Wrench trait which most Engineers will take if they are using the Tool Kit. That is not a very long cool down at all.

I know ArenaNet has designed the Engineer to do everything the other professions can do only better, but I think this one skill should prevent capture-point contribution. However that would mean a slight nerf to the Engineer and I know that is against their design philosophy for the profession.

Thanks.

Invulnerable 3 out of 16 seconds? Wow. So OP.

Also:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable

FYI to those in this thread, I’m not really for or against any changes to invulnerability affecting capping. I just don’t see it as an issue which is why I’m posting.

tichorum.2415:

Harbinger.8637:

tichorum.2415:

All invulnerability classified skills do not capture points. An invluln is taking no physical or condition damage with one ability. Name one that captures a point.

inb4 endure pain and zerker stance!

Both are not invulns. You are vulnerable to condition damage while in endure pain and physical damage with zerker stance. They’re two different abilities, obviously. If they pop both are once then that is a good thing for the enemy.

and you can still be CC’ed even if you pop two at onces, even you pop your balanced stance alone with all the other twos stances, which means all your utility skills, you can still get your stability stripped and get CC’ed.

tldr:
true Invulerability skill>block>> endure pain+berserker stance+balanced stance

evilapprentice.6379:

tichorum.2415:

Harbinger.8637:

tichorum.2415:

All invulnerability classified skills do not capture points. An invluln is taking no physical or condition damage with one ability. Name one that captures a point.

inb4 endure pain and zerker stance!

they pop both are once then that is a good thing for the enemy.

Yes, I commonly rejoice when my target becomes completely immune to all types of damage.

you should, because he just wasted all his CD for nothing, and will die so easily facing any burst or focus fire, a warrior who manages use CDs and use each stances accordingly to situations last longer.

Ayrilana.1396:

Michaeas Magister.1589:

Ayrilana.1396:

Alright. If this is such a big issue, post a video of a team preventing a point capture by invulnerability skills alone. Due to the short durations and long cool downs of these skills, it would have to be an organized team that does this as randoms in hot join would be unlikely to pull this off. Therefore, you must do this against another organized team.

Gear Shield is a three second block on a twenty second cool down. Sixteen seconds with the Power Wrench trait which most Engineers will take if they are using the Tool Kit. That is not a very long cool down at all.

I know ArenaNet has designed the Engineer to do everything the other professions can do only better, but I think this one skill should prevent capture-point contribution. However that would mean a slight nerf to the Engineer and I know that is against their design philosophy for the profession.

Thanks.

Invulnerable 3 out of 16 seconds? Wow. So OP.

FYI to those in this thread, I’m not really for or against any changes to invulnerability affecting capping. I just don’t see it as an issue which is why I’m posting.

Signet of Stone 6/80 seconds = 7.5% uptime
Endure Pain 4/60 seconds = 6.66% uptime
Sheild 5 on war 3/30 seconds = 10% uptime
Gear Shield 3/16 = 18.75% uptime

Not to mention engi gets 4 other free skills in that one utility slot which is 1/26 skills dedicated to defense while war for example has dedicated 1/17 to get the same skill with almost twice the cool down.

Eurantien.4632:

Ayrilana.1396:

Michaeas Magister.1589:

Ayrilana.1396:

Alright. If this is such a big issue, post a video of a team preventing a point capture by invulnerability skills alone. Due to the short durations and long cool downs of these skills, it would have to be an organized team that does this as randoms in hot join would be unlikely to pull this off. Therefore, you must do this against another organized team.

Gear Shield is a three second block on a twenty second cool down. Sixteen seconds with the Power Wrench trait which most Engineers will take if they are using the Tool Kit. That is not a very long cool down at all.

I know ArenaNet has designed the Engineer to do everything the other professions can do only better, but I think this one skill should prevent capture-point contribution. However that would mean a slight nerf to the Engineer and I know that is against their design philosophy for the profession.

Thanks.

Invulnerable 3 out of 16 seconds? Wow. So OP.

FYI to those in this thread, I’m not really for or against any changes to invulnerability affecting capping. I just don’t see it as an issue which is why I’m posting.

Signet of Stone 6/80 seconds = 7.5% uptime
Endure Pain 4/60 seconds = 6.66% uptime
Sheild 5 on war 3/30 seconds = 10% uptime
Gear Shield 3/16 = 18.75% uptime

Not to mention engi gets 4 other free skills in that one utility slot which is 1/26 skills dedicated to defense while war for example has dedicated 1/17 to get the same skill with almost twice the cool down.

So you’re suggesting that engi should be nerfed because theirs has a longer uptime?

Engis are OP by the shear nature of everything they do is condi and power and aoe, best hp/s, never has to deal with cds (something is always off cd). That’s a different thread though….

Simon.3794:

evilapprentice.6379:

tichorum.2415:

Harbinger.8637:

tichorum.2415:

All invulnerability classified skills do not capture points. An invluln is taking no physical or condition damage with one ability. Name one that captures a point.

inb4 endure pain and zerker stance!

they pop both are once then that is a good thing for the enemy.

Yes, I commonly rejoice when my target becomes completely immune to all types of damage.

you should, because he just wasted all his CD for nothing, and will die so easily facing any burst or focus fire, a warrior who manages use CDs and use each stances accordingly to situations last longer.

For nothing, you say?

What if he bought himself enough time for a roamer to get to the point? Or bought enough time for skills he needed to come off CD? Or stopped the point from flipping long enough to win the game? Or forced multiple players to wait out the invulnerability because he was tanky enough to take 2 players to down in a reasonable timeframe? Or waited out a buff/timed skill on another player? I could keep going if I couldn’t provide enough scenarios just off the top of my head.

You are aware this post in the SPvP forums, correct? We are talking about capture point scenarios. To just assume that being completely invulnerable for any period of time while still contesting points is worthless, and is in fact some sort of detriment to a player (“All that time he spent invincible was a bad thing!” lawl) is ludicrous.

This isn’t a game you win by killing other players alone. That is just a portion of it. Being invincible to any primary source of damage (Direct damage OR Conditions) and holding down a point is a silly, and should be fixed.

Eurantien.4632:

Engis are OP by the shear nature of everything they do is condi and power and aoe, best hp/s, never has to deal with cds (something is always off cd). That’s a different thread though….

Those same engineers are utterly hard countered by condition necros.

The point isn’t whether or not endure pain is useful for me, as a non warrior, to see it popped, it’s that the warrior can still attack (unlike most invulns) and hold onto a point (unlike all invulns). Invulns are only balanced because they are mostly defensive and can’t cap, but for some reason endure pain has this special treatment. There is literally no downside to this skill.

Roe.3679:

Eurantien.4632:

Engis are OP by the shear nature of everything they do is condi and power and aoe, best hp/s, never has to deal with cds (something is always off cd). That’s a different thread though….

Those same engineers are utterly hard countered by condition necros.

The point isn’t whether or not endure pain is useful for me, as a non warrior, to see it popped, it’s that the warrior can still attack (unlike most invulns) and hold onto a point (unlike all invulns). Invulns are only balanced because they are mostly defensive and can’t cap, but for some reason endure pain has this special treatment. There is literally no downside to this skill.

That’s because endure pain isn’t an invul…kitten
The downside is that condition damage can still be applied. Or you can just y’know, knock him off the point, because it doesn’t act as a stability, either.

Kagamiku.9731:

Roe.3679:

Eurantien.4632:

Engis are OP by the shear nature of everything they do is condi and power and aoe, best hp/s, never has to deal with cds (something is always off cd). That’s a different thread though….

Those same engineers are utterly hard countered by condition necros.

The point isn’t whether or not endure pain is useful for me, as a non warrior, to see it popped, it’s that the warrior can still attack (unlike most invulns) and hold onto a point (unlike all invulns). Invulns are only balanced because they are mostly defensive and can’t cap, but for some reason endure pain has this special treatment. There is literally no downside to this skill.

That’s because endure pain isn’t an invul…kitten
The downside is that condition damage can still be applied. Or you can just y’know, knock him off the point, because it doesn’t act as a stability, either.

If I hit a warrior with endure pain, it says invulnerable. It’s an invulnerability skill, just not invulnerable from everything. No condi build is going to deal significant damage in 4 or 5 seconds (even if they did – berserker stance) and most warriors seem to have stability as well. So while you can throw out your whole “just do condi damage” I can say “lol just pop zerker stance and/or stability and keep contesting that point with 0 counterplay whatsoever”

Pretty sure it shows up as “0” or says “immune” not invulnerable.

Please know terminology before using it – Invulnerable: impossible to harm or damage.

So a warrior basically needs to use their entire skill bar to have 5 seconds (max, only 4 second if not traited) of invulnerability. While a true invulnerability skill gives complete immunity by itself. That is the downside to the skill, and why endure pain can contest a point while invulnerability skill can not. He can enjoy his 5 seconds of fame, because he’ll be dead shortly after.

Signet of Stone (ranger skill) provides immunity to physical damage and that can contest points, so why would a warrior be any different. Please explain.

Kagamiku.9731:

Pretty sure it shows up as “0” or says “immune” not invulnerable.

Please know terminology before using it – Invulnerable: impossible to harm or damage.

So a warrior basically needs to use their entire skill bar to have 5 seconds (max, only 4 second if not traited) of invulnerability. While a true invulnerability skill gives complete immunity by itself. That is the downside to the skill, and why endure pain can contest a point while invulnerability skill can not. He can enjoy his 5 seconds of fame, because he’ll be dead shortly after.

Signet of Stone (ranger skill) provides immunity to physical damage and that can contest points, so why would a warrior be any different. Please explain.

The point of the thread isn’t whether the skill is balanced, really, which seems to be what you’re arguing about. It’s that it contests a point. But regardless, no other class can pop their utilities, be untouchable, contest a point, and still deal damage. You know what happens if I run into 5 enemy players and pop all my utilities? I’m likely dead in the amount of time endure pain would have lasted.

As for rangers, they shouldn’t be able to contest either, the thread just turned to endure pain. Thread title and OP mention invulnerabilities in general, not endure pain. You can end your warrior crusade any time.

evilapprentice.6379:

Simon.3794:

evilapprentice.6379:

tichorum.2415:

Harbinger.8637:

tichorum.2415:

All invulnerability classified skills do not capture points. An invluln is taking no physical or condition damage with one ability. Name one that captures a point.

inb4 endure pain and zerker stance!

they pop both are once then that is a good thing for the enemy.

Yes, I commonly rejoice when my target becomes completely immune to all types of damage.

you should, because he just wasted all his CD for nothing, and will die so easily facing any burst or focus fire, a warrior who manages use CDs and use each stances accordingly to situations last longer.

For nothing, you say?

What if he bought himself enough time for a roamer to get to the point? Or bought enough time for skills he needed to come off CD? Or stopped the point from flipping long enough to win the game? Or forced multiple players to wait out the invulnerability because he was tanky enough to take 2 players to down in a reasonable timeframe? Or waited out a buff/timed skill on another player? I could keep going if I couldn’t provide enough scenarios just off the top of my head.

You are aware this post in the SPvP forums, correct? We are talking about capture point scenarios. To just assume that being completely invulnerable for any period of time while still contesting points is worthless, and is in fact some sort of detriment to a player (“All that time he spent invincible was a bad thing!” lawl) is ludicrous.

This isn’t a game you win by killing other players alone. That is just a portion of it. Being invincible to any primary source of damage (Direct damage OR Conditions) and holding down a point is a silly, and should be fixed.

apparently, you didn’t read my last sentence.