Is Ele Base Damage Too High?
You can get crit for 6k by a fire grab from celestial d/d if you wear zerker. And d/d ele is a TANK CLASS too. No other tank class can hit that much as a tank, and if people say “final thrust” can do the same damage well then that’s a fail argument.
No other tank class can hit that much as a tank, and if people say “final thrust” can do the same damage well then that’s a fail argument.
Final Thrust has a conditional coefficient of 3 on a 15-second recharge whereas Fire Grab has a conditional coefficient of 2.8 on a 45-second recharge. What am I missing here?
Anyone who says Zerk is the average Joe build is an average Joe.
The problem with Ele started when it able to get full fire line.
190 extra power and 2 damage modifiers increase the damage, %10 when attuned to fire and %10 to burning foes.
Unless ANet does somehow prevent D/D Ele took the fire line, I have no idea how can they lower the damage without nerfing also the zerker builds.
Only possible way I think, Tempest line must so awesome that new meta should Tempest/Water/Arcana
I hate to burst your bubble, but the base stats for all the professions are the same (at 1000) with the exception of Vitality which changes depending on the profession, on a side note, ele’s have the lowest base Vitality stat in the game. So Power scales the same on an all of the professions.
I think the issue has to do with the Fire line, its just way to powerful at the moment.
The thing is..they have far too easy access to might and burn consider how f tanky they are, not to mention these spamable 0 skill blinds..
What they would have is;
1. Drastically reduce access to might by increasing cd’s on skills which create firefields (hello ring of fire) and remove fireaura from sunspot. If they want might then sorry brah, you gotta pick up pyromancer puissance trait which should also get reduced might duration to 13sec base and str runes if you want decent uptime on might.
2. Blind ashes – reduce blind duration to 2 seconds, increase cd to 10 per target.
3. Reduce burn stacks on weapon skills. Remove evade from burning speed.
Destroyed? Maybe..or just simply toned down to acceptable level. No class should be able to do everything at once. Right now ele is braindead faceroll class.
obey me
I hate to burst your bubble, but the base stats for all the professions are the same (at 1000) with the exception of Vitality which changes depending on the profession, on a side note, ele’s have the lowest base Vitality stat in the game. So Power scales the same on an all of the professions.
He’s talking about skills, not actual base stats. Skills have different base damage values and scale ratios.
Skills don’t actually have base damage. To put it simply, it’s weapon damage * power * scaling coefficient / target armor. Conditions do have base damage though, the portion that scales with your level. I don’t think anyone has ever complained about the 22 damage per bleed stack they’re taking from a build with 0 condition damage, though.
I really like where eles are right now. I actually think if the put a longer set time on blinds in the game in general we wouldnt have so many problems. Like a fight vs a mesmer/ele/guardian things go insane with miss and invulnerable. If we just put a system in where you can only be blinded once every 20 sec, bam things might be put back in balance.
To reiterate what Prisoner said, there is absolutely no such thing as base damage in this game. If you need proof, just look for any damage formula.
There is a base power stat, which determines minimum damage, but that is the same across all professions.
Indeed, Marauder amulet of Elementalist do not increases the damage by much. I can’t talk for D/D, but I can talk for Staff.
With staff elementalist, going marauder is a deathwish and you will spend more time being too careful, or trying to survive than you would with Celestial; that is mainly my thought when I decide to go Fresh Air Staff.
Alerie Despins
A simpler solution would be to reduce some healing skills ability ( for example ea in water or heling by cantrip or signet of restoration ) so that elementalists would have more to think to how avoid damage
Skills don’t actually have base damage. To put it simply, it’s weapon damage * power * scaling coefficient / target armor. Conditions do have base damage though, the portion that scales with your level. I don’t think anyone has ever complained about the 22 damage per bleed stack they’re taking from a build with 0 condition damage, though.
If this were true Eviscerate would do the same damage as Throw Axe, they do not because the SKILLS have different damage scales.
My point was a discussion piece but saying “skills don’t have differing damage” is incorrect. I am suggesting lowering the base of ele skills and scaling them better with Power (similar to what was done with Conditions recently).
I hate to burst your bubble, but the base stats for all the professions are the same (at 1000) with the exception of Vitality which changes depending on the profession, on a side note, ele’s have the lowest base Vitality stat in the game. So Power scales the same on an all of the professions.
He’s talking about skills, not actual base stats. Skills have different base damage values and scale ratios.
ah, figured i was interpreting this thread wrong.
Don’t weapon/utility skills use a multiplier/coefficient that works with the Power stat that determines damage output? Looking over the elementalists dagger skills, a majority of the coefficients don’t seem out of the norm compared to other professions and weapons.
Does the OP have any specific numbers or skills that he wants to point out? Or is this more of a ‘I feel’ post?
I hate to burst your bubble, but the base stats for all the professions are the same (at 1000) with the exception of Vitality which changes depending on the profession, on a side note, ele’s have the lowest base Vitality stat in the game. So Power scales the same on an all of the professions.
He’s talking about skills, not actual base stats. Skills have different base damage values and scale ratios.
ah, figured i was interpreting this thread wrong.
Don’t weapon/utility skills use a multiplier/coefficient that works with the Power stat that determines damage output? Looking over the elementalists dagger skills, a majority of the coefficients don’t seem out of the norm compared to other professions and weapons.
Does the OP have any specific numbers or skills that he wants to point out? Or is this more of a ‘I feel’ post?
Just an “i feel” post, the ele issue has been around for a while now and just thought since eles benefit so much from Cele (forced to take healing skills etc.) they might need their Power interaction rescaled to compensate.
Most other suggestions to fix it would gut the class or do very little or remove an amulet. This was just a thought on how eles and Cele could be fixed.
I hate to burst your bubble, but the base stats for all the professions are the same (at 1000) with the exception of Vitality which changes depending on the profession, on a side note, ele’s have the lowest base Vitality stat in the game. So Power scales the same on an all of the professions.
He’s talking about skills, not actual base stats. Skills have different base damage values and scale ratios.
ah, figured i was interpreting this thread wrong.
Don’t weapon/utility skills use a multiplier/coefficient that works with the Power stat that determines damage output? Looking over the elementalists dagger skills, a majority of the coefficients don’t seem out of the norm compared to other professions and weapons.
Does the OP have any specific numbers or skills that he wants to point out? Or is this more of a ‘I feel’ post?
Just an “i feel” post, the ele issue has been around for a while now and just thought since eles benefit so much from Cele (forced to take healing skills etc.) they might need their Power interaction rescaled to compensate.
Most other suggestions to fix it would gut the class or do very little or remove an amulet. This was just a thought on how eles and Cele could be fixed.
Ya, I feel you. Ele’s feel like an overpowered profession indeed, but it’s way above my scope to really pin-point on what makes them feel so overpowered right now.
I was talking with an Ele friend and he said that if he takes Marauder he does only marginally increased direct damage when compared to Cele.
Is this where the issue lies? Ele benefits a lot from all the support stats that Cele gives but doesn’t lose out enough from its attacks because the BASE is too high and it scales poorly with DPS stats.
People have been trying to bring ele in line for AGES now, is it time to think about dropping the skills base damage and increasing their rate of scaling? Hmmm that does then mean they benefit more from Might but that might encourage more boon stripping in the meta if they had noticably weaker attacks at base.
I’m not an ele player but it seemed like an interesting direction to look in, besides the burn direction (I feel nerfing burning will not fix this ele problem – and it is a problem, we just need to deal with it without destroying the class).
This suggestion would hopefully give some punishment to Cele and encourage amulets that eles aren’t forced to benefit tons from (because they are forced to take water skills we need to work around that).
Just a thought.
it’s the might stacking too. there’s too much of it, there is literally no excuse for anything to be capable of maintaining 20-25 stacks of might entirely by itself. if anet is completely unwilling to nerf their stupid strong offensive strength, then the stupid strong sustain has to go. it’s one or the either, not both.
If we just put a system in where you can only be blinded once every 20 sec, bam things might be put back in balance.
I’m sorry, but what? Just what? Your intended mesmer/ele nerf would actually obliterate the last vestiges of 1v1/2v2 ability the thief has. The effect on the two desired classes would be minimal, while the class that would hurt the most would be thief.
People call me Hobo.
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The scaling coefficient for elementalist dagger skills compared to many other meta builds is actually quite high so I don’t think this is the issue.
I think if fire line is nerfed enough then the class will be in line with most other meta builds. Earth lacks a lot of damage in comparison and is still quite selfish. Most of the damage comes from burning currently, which scales incredibly well with might.
Reducing access to might or burning will have a much larger impact on bruiser celestial dd than another realistic elementalist role.
(edited by Zuik.7158)
The wiki article on damage may help to clear up a few of the misconceptions you have. I would suggest reading it.
The wiki article on damage may help to clear up a few of the misconceptions you have. I would suggest reading it.
Damage done = (Weapon strength) X Power X (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)
I’ve bolded the bit I’m talking about so everyone is on the same page. It would need to become a scaling number dependent on Power (basicly meaning ele would double dip from Power).
EG. Skill Coeff = 0.6 (now)
Skill Coeff = 0.4 + 0.1x (where x = Power)
These numbers are just for example.
(edited by Coulter.2315)
The problem about the ele’s damage is:
MIGHT!
A ele can stack and keep by itself during a fight 20 might stack.
That’s 600 of Power and Condition Damage!
That make it powerfull both in direct and condition damage still while in celestial.
Add to that 190 of free power and +20% of damage by traits and you obtain a celestial build with the same damage of both a berserker and a condition damage build.
THAT make the Elementalist OP.
It’s a class that can deal the direct damage of a berserker, the condition damage of a condition build and survive like a bunker at the same time.
You need practice to amster the elementalist, it’s a high ability – high reward class, but the reward is really too high.
How to “fix” that problem:
Drastically Reduce the BAST FINISHER skills of the Elementalist. Let them be AoE but no more Blast Finishers!
That will make the ele still able to give fire fields and make every dungeoneer happy and at the same time make the ele unable to stack more than 9-12 might.
The problem about the ele’s damage is:
MIGHT!
You are correct sir!
How to “fix” that problem:
Drastically Reduce the BAST FINISHER skills of the Elementalist. Let them be AoE but no more Blast Finishers!
I… somewhat agree here. Maining Engineer I can say that the number of blast finishers available through weapon selection is a problem, but this is also a two-way street in that they are forced into that play style because of the enhanced performance. Cracking down too hard and on the wrong skills will have drastic consequences.
Sir you are wrong.
Cele 20 might stacks = UNBUFFED zerker power stat
You are telling me that zerker doenst need might stacks ? Marauder can reach 3000+ power easy while your celestial scrub can only make it to 2300ish
Razac Wickedbane
World Guardians [WvW] SFR Romanian Guild
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The wiki article on damage may help to clear up a few of the misconceptions you have. I would suggest reading it.
Damage done = (Weapon strength) X Power X (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)
I’ve bolded the bit I’m talking about so everyone is on the same page. It would need to become a scaling number dependent on Power (basicly meaning ele would double dip from Power).
EG. Skill Coeff = 0.6 (now)
Skill Coeff = 0.4 + 0.1x (where x = Power)These numbers are just for example.
Okay. Think about this carefully. Given that damage formula, how would you change it to nerf base damage while buffing scaling?
That’s the problem with the underlying assumption of this thread: Elementalist base damage can’t be too high if its scaling isn’t too high. Both are tied together.
Given that, it’s actually impossible for marauder to not be a sizable damage boost from celestial as long as might and vulnerability stacks stay constant.
You use something similar to the equation I listed above – with the skill coefficient more dependent on Power. The example used random numbers you can easily fiddle with them to get whatever low base and high from high power you like.
I basicly turned the equation for damage from linear wrt Power to quadratic wrt Power – meaning you get more benefit from higher power and then you can just tweak the bottom end.
You can get crit for 6k by a fire grab from celestial d/d if you wear zerker. And d/d ele is a TANK CLASS too. No other tank class can hit that much as a tank, and if people say “final thrust” can do the same damage well then that’s a fail argument.
Lol @ calling the squishiest class in the game a tank.
Not as high as the balance team.
You can get crit for 6k by a fire grab from celestial d/d if you wear zerker. And d/d ele is a TANK CLASS too. No other tank class can hit that much as a tank, and if people say “final thrust” can do the same damage well then that’s a fail argument.
Lol @ calling the squishiest class in the game a tank.
You saying DD cele ele is squishy??
The problem with Ele started when it able to get full fire line.
190 extra power and 2 damage modifiers increase the damage, %10 when attuned to fire and %10 to burning foes.
Unless ANet does somehow prevent D/D Ele took the fire line, I have no idea how can they lower the damage without nerfing also the zerker builds.
Only possible way I think, Tempest line must so awesome that new meta should Tempest/Water/Arcana
They can shift the damage portion to be more dependant on crit rate and crit damage, so it requires more precision / ferocity then cele provides. But… that would invalidate a lot of current condi builds, especially make the situation bad in rest of the game outside of pvp mode. So they would also need to seperate the condi application and make that based on crit proc rate as well so that stat sets such as rabid or sinister would be necessary for optimal gameplay instead of cele.
one of the issues I see is that cele provides too much condi damage and power damage at the same time. this is where I receive the huge bursts from them. granted that unlike most of you i actually run enough cleansing etc. so that i take only around 30%-50% of my health instead of 90% from it, but still, that is too much to take for tank builds. a full tank / cleansing build should take around 2%-5% per tick, not 30%.
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
The problem with Ele started when it able to get full fire line.
190 extra power and 2 damage modifiers increase the damage, %10 when attuned to fire and %10 to burning foes.
Unless ANet does somehow prevent D/D Ele took the fire line, I have no idea how can they lower the damage without nerfing also the zerker builds.
Only possible way I think, Tempest line must so awesome that new meta should Tempest/Water/Arcana
They can shift the damage portion to be more dependant on crit rate and crit damage, so it requires more precision / ferocity then cele provides. But… that would invalidate a lot of current condi builds, especially make the situation bad in rest of the game outside of pvp mode. So they would also need to seperate the condi application and make that based on crit proc rate as well so that stat sets such as rabid or sinister would be necessary for optimal gameplay instead of cele.
one of the issues I see is that cele provides too much condi damage and power damage at the same time. this is where I receive the huge bursts from them. granted that unlike most of you i actually run enough cleansing etc. so that i take only around 30%-50% of my health instead of 90% from it, but still, that is too much to take for tank builds. a full tank / cleansing build should take around 2%-5% per tick, not 30%.
I still say the most problem comes from the burning, before the patch my burns ticked for 560 and I was extremely happy with it.
Now when I make my burn rotation, people running around with 1200 tick per damage for next 3s, most classes have access to condi clears every 30s rotation but I can put them same amount of burning in next 8s, they should really put sigil that are transferring burns instead of random crap, if they really leave burn damage like this.
Cele is easy to kite but kiting doesn’t bring anything if Cele can damage you without hitting you.
They must somehow bring burn damage again around max 560 per tick.
Yes Yes Yes Yes
A cat is a cat, a long due nerf is a long due nerf.
Reminder:
RING OF FIRE (weapon ele): 3 Burn Stacks for 5sec | Cooldown 15sec Casttime 1/4sec
PURGING FLAME (utility guardian): 3 Burn Stacks for 5sec | Cooldown 35sec Casttime 3/4sec
3x cast time 2.3x recharge for burn guard (but burn guard is broken or so they say aha)
On top of this obvious flaw, the ele stacks might passively (remember might the boon that really benefits only celestial builds) heals passively, stun passively, get protection passively.
You know what’s even more annoying than an unbalanced class?
An unbalanced class that requires 0 skill to win because everything’s passive!
They can run away and still do the same amount of damage no need to face your target.
Yes Yes Yes Yes
A cat is a cat, a long due nerf is a long due nerf.
Reminder:
RING OF FIRE (weapon ele): 3 Burn Stacks for 5sec | Cooldown 15sec Casttime 1/4sec
PURGING FLAME (utility guardian): 3 Burn Stacks for 5sec | Cooldown 35sec Casttime 3/4sec
3x cast time 2.3x recharge for burn guard (but burn guard is broken or so they say aha)
On top of this obvious flaw, the ele stacks might passively (remember might the boon that really benefits only celestial builds) heals passively, stun passively, get protection passively.
You know what’s even more annoying than an unbalanced class?
An unbalanced class that requires 0 skill to win because everything’s passive!
They can run away and still do the same amount of damage no need to face your target.
I just wanted to stop by and say that while d/d is obviously overly effective, very few of the things you listed are actually passive.
Most of our boons, especially might, come from blasting fields and swapping attunements, which is for the most part a calculated effort that involves us giving up some aspect of our kit for ten seconds.
Every build benefits from might substantially. It is simply more apparent on a bunker than a zerker for obvious reasons.
The only passive stun is the traited shocking aura, which every class has an equivalent to, like Mirror of Anguish. See wiki: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Control_effect#Related_traits
The passive healing signet has an equivalent across most classes.
Not to mention, if you died to a d/d ele running away, something went horribly, horribly wrong. Either you walked through ring of fire at least three times (assuming a minimum health pool zerker with zero condition cleanse), or… actually that’s the only thing a d/d ele could possibly damage you with while facing away. Everything else is PBAoE (Point blank area of effect for the gaming illiterate).
I was talking with an Ele friend and he said that if he takes Marauder he does only marginally increased direct damage when compared to Cele.
The issue here is that celestial is very overstated in pvp and ele can make use of all the stats and arguably better than any other class. You could adjust it, but it would just hurt other builds and classes. For the most part celestial isnt that much of a problem on the other weapon sets than d/d because the skills on the other sets have very appropriate cooldowns in relation to what the skills do.
He’s talking about skills, not actual base stats. Skills have different base damage values and scale ratios.
no they all have a skill coffiecents:
Damage = (( Weapon strength * Power * Skill coefficient) * Positive multipliers) / (Armor * Negative multipliers)
Your only bases are weapon damage and your opponents armor. Unless your talking about condi damage in which case yes there are bases that can be adjusted.
MIGHT![…]
It’s a class that can deal the direct damage of a berserker[because of might], the condition damage of a condition build and survive like a bunker at the same time.
Drastically Reduce the BAST FINISHER skills of the Elementalist. Let them be AoE but no more Blast Finishers!
Nail on the head. They could adjust the kit in a number of ways, taking away blasts, extending the cooldowns skills or just on blasts, adjusting that arcane trait that blasts on dodge roll… etc so that dagger in particular can’t blast as much.
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I Play WvW to have fun. I don’t find it fun anymore. Therefore I don’t play.
I Play WvW to have fun. I don’t find it fun anymore. Therefore I don’t play.
(edited by Eval.2371)
No, I’ve never had a fight with an ele that I didn’t feel I couldn’t walk away from. The damage never really felt threatening to me. The trouble fighting them is that you have to contest points.
They have very long duration CC with the blowback and the earth stomp. If your stunbreak is down or you don’t have stability, that’s when they’re able to whittle you down, and there isn’t much you can do about it. After they finish with the CC, you are able to fight them again, but they swap to water and pop frost aura. Now they can kite you while taking almost no damage, and continue to whittle you down. After that’s over, they can go back to their blowback → fire field → earth knockdown combo, and you’d better pray you have more stability.
So, not a lot of damage, but if you stay to fight them, they’ll win the attrition, and conquest is all about attrition.