Guild Wars 2

I love how people sit here and complain about how hard the pvp is To watch and yet in their signature they have their twitch channel…ironic huh?

TyPin.9860:

I believe the biggest issue with GW2 PvP not being eSports material is the lack of replay and observation options.

Take SC2 for instance. When it came out, I immediately bought it and laddered like crazy. It was so much fun, even when I was on the loosing and. And I was often on the loosing end

But I enjoyed the game, because of the numbers of casts in the internet, where I could follow the action with passionate commentators. In GW2 you must be life there to observe the game. There is no option to just load a playback and rewind it as much as you want.

If you want to showcase some tactics, strategies and special situations, you can not simply play back to this point in time. I mean you can, but it takes a considerable amount of editing instead of just going to the point in time in a replay while you are watching the match (like you can in SC2). And this makes it not worth it. Also, I would want a “zoom far away out”-option, so I can check what’s going on from further away. If you’d have a freely movable camera and free playback file, where you can relive the action, then there would be way more option to offer this game to an audience. If you have an audience, you have potential to make it into the eSports scene.

You’re joking right?

GW2 pvp isn’t good enough for being played.

If you check back you see gazillion threads telling how people just quit (most of actual pvpers quit GW2 ages ago) because no one was really caring about pvp apparently.

So called balance patches have only made carebears happy.

No,it’s to unbalanced to be an e-sport.

No…a part of the combat is to simplistic even . So most sane ppl will never consider this an esport. And most esport players tried it and considered it a failure. Since Anet isnt willing and /or able to change anything to drastic it will never be an esport either.

Locuz.2651:

No…a part of the combat is to simplistic even . So most sane ppl will never consider this an esport. And most esport players tried it and considered it a failure. Since Anet isnt willing and /or able to change anything to drastic it will never be an esport either.

Simplistic,true..But unbalanced in each and every way,since this game will never be balanced on 1on1 scenarios yet they balance it around zerg content wich should say enough.

Caedmon.6798:

Simplistic,true..But unbalanced in each and every way,since this game will never be balanced on 1on1 scenarios yet they balance it around zerg content wich should say enough.

Its unbalanced because the simple classes need to be on par with the classes with a bit more complexity. So classes that require 1 or 2 skills to kill need to be as good as a class that needs an entire rotation or a good setup for his kills. The one with 1 or 2 button rotations is ofc far more forgiving so ends up being stronger overall since its easier to play it at the skillcap.

Human kind including myself tend to be lazy and go for the easy / OP stuff. Which results in games that are less enjoyable for everyone = what the problem is with pvp in GW2 atm.

The only option is to add more combat depth to classes that are too simple. Adjust/develop all classes so they are easy to get in to but hard to master (i know this is easier said than done). Vertical development instead of the horizontal development theyve been trying so far.

RoRo.8270:

TyPin.9860:

I believe the biggest issue with GW2 PvP not being eSports material is the lack of replay and observation options.

Take SC2 for instance. When it came out, I immediately bought it and laddered like crazy. It was so much fun, even when I was on the loosing and. And I was often on the loosing end

But I enjoyed the game, because of the numbers of casts in the internet, where I could follow the action with passionate commentators. In GW2 you must be life there to observe the game. There is no option to just load a playback and rewind it as much as you want.

If you want to showcase some tactics, strategies and special situations, you can not simply play back to this point in time. I mean you can, but it takes a considerable amount of editing instead of just going to the point in time in a replay while you are watching the match (like you can in SC2). And this makes it not worth it. Also, I would want a “zoom far away out”-option, so I can check what’s going on from further away. If you’d have a freely movable camera and free playback file, where you can relive the action, then there would be way more option to offer this game to an audience. If you have an audience, you have potential to make it into the eSports scene.

You’re joking right?

Nope, I am not. What us ur point mate?

Classes are too easy, while the tactical aspect is far more complicate. Especially the pace of decisions that have to be made is really fast and in my opinion a big problem for newer players.
For E.G. how you gonna react if you loose the teamfight, get two-capped and the opposite team is already attacking the third node.

So what A-Net did was creating classes for casuals in a game-mode that is everything other than casual. It would be supperior the other way around.

E-sport wannabe in an MMO.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Classes are too easy, while the tactical aspect is far more complicate. Especially the pace of decisions that have to be made is really fast and in my opinion a big problem for newer players.
For E.G. how you gonna react if you loose the teamfight, get two-capped and the opposite team is already attacking the third node.

So what A-Net did was creating classes for casuals in a game-mode that is everything other than casual. It would be supperior the other way around.

Exactly. Its impossible to create an esport scene in a game that doesnt have enough enjoyable/deep combat.

The focus on horizontal instead of vertical development really has me worried aswell. Dont get me wrong; i like new options and builddiversity. But development like that doesnt tackle the issues we have with the lack of depth.

Ideally i want to see more classes to fit the same mold as engineer for example. If we dont look at the current meta builds/balance and just look at the possibilities that engineers have; its clear to see that there are possibilities for everyone. You can create a build that is very straightforward and simple…or a build that has a lot of tools and requires a lot of timing.

The simple builds should be starter builds, that function as somewhat of a stepping stone untill you learned to play. The top of the ladder should be dominated by the complexer builds only.

One of my friend who loves playing Wolfenstein said that GW2 is too complicated for him, when he was watching it on youtube.

I would say it is a small factor. True esports should be clear on what tools your opponent has at their disposal, at least in terms of any stats chosen before the start of the game.

As for the process of building a character, its not too difficult. There is room for that trial and error when starting out and it adds to the replay value.

Now in terms of actual combat there is just a massive lack of direction. The designers seem dependent on the player base for the direction of the classes in terms of PvP while at the same time being hesitant to follow through on suggestions because they don’t have a their own image of a class they can use to relate to. I don’t even feel they have a reference build they consider the ‘standard’ that other classes should be balanced around power wise. The result is poor balance dominated by gimmicks.

The other issue is how well the game can be watched/commentated. I find commentators put me to sleep as they end up focusing on the macro level too much but watching a single player for the match works. The game mode selected doesn’t have a central focal point and ends up splitting the action too much. A match should present a variety of fights with different scale but this should be done with imbalanced objectives so one objective takes the larger focus with other optional side objectives to break up the pace.

Last important issue is visibility, probably the most important issue when it comes to esports. Asura…. Someone please blow the f out of ratasum. make them go extinct, permanently. But really its not just asura. There is too much ai clutter, lingering particle effects, instant cast teleports which extend past the spectator screen, subtle animations with large effects, animations that don’t match hit boxes, etc etc.

I’d say that there just isn’t any money.

In the current esport climate, you can take any game, throw money at it (in the form of prize pools etc.) and it will suddenly become an “esport.” Whether it takes off from there, or continues its popularity as an esport and becomes self-sustaining is another issue. But Guild Wars 2 hasn’t even tried to start up.

I’d love to see anet host a multi-million dollar prize pool tournament. We can start talking about esports when this happens. At the very least, the game will gain a lot of respect both from current/future players and viewers. Right now prizes are just paltry. Gems? Legendaries? No one really cares too much if they win or lose. Put a few hundred thousand dollars (per person) on the line, and things will start to get real.

$8,000 total prizepool (for the winners) for last year’s PAX was pathetic, not to mention it would be split 5 ways. This sort of pocket money would be nice for a weekly/biweekly tournament. Not the big bang of the year.

Compare

Gw2 is not a challenge for teams or truly competitive players like other games offer.

butch.8136:

Viewership:

- Difficult to cast/difficult to watch. (< b/c of fast-paced combat system, conquest and visual clutter)

This is a big issue for me. When playing, it’s hard to tell what’s going on. When spectating, you don’t have have one player (yourself) to follow properly. Sure, you can see their skillbar and what they’re doing, but if you watch the skillbar you don’t get to see much of what’s going on in the field (so the cluttered, flashy animations and all those AI units get even more confusing).

these necros gokitten

If I were to compare gw2 to a real sport, I would say it is like american football. It is complex, but still possible , but that complexity will also just limit its audience. A sport with less complex rules like soccer is more universal and can reach more people than football ever will.

And yes I know Im simplifying it but I think my point still reaches through :P

Penguin.5197:

If I were to compare gw2 to a real sport, I would say it is like american football. It is complex, but still possible , but that complexity will also just limit its audience. A sport with less complex rules like soccer is more universal and can reach more people than football ever will.

And yes I know Im simplifying it but I think my point still reaches through :P

For sports id compare it to track / swimming. Where everybodies score is tallied at the end for a team winner. You can even say marching band as well on holding formations in a team / group everybody has different instruments too.

American football is not complex the world just does not enjoy it. Half the game is commericals of the sponsors / beer companies. In soccer they run ads on screens around the field. The first time American football was played in the uk they tossed boo’s when Tom Brady took a knee before half time and ran off the field. Rugby is more embraced then American football it’s because men and women respect the highest level of performance and competetive play.

Shockwave.1230:

Is Guild Wars 2 PvP too complicated to be consumable by the the mass esport audience?

There’s the whole build aspect of the game, which requires a lot of analysis and reanalyzing as you go in order to put together an effective build.

• Guild Wars 2 has a lot of systems players need to understand in order to create an effective attribute setup.

• While you’re crafting your attribute setup you must also consider what weapons play to those strengths.

• Additionally you need to consider what 5 slot skills play to the strengths of your attribute setup.

• You also need to figure out what traits make the most sense in your build. You must also consider the impact trait lines have on attributes.

• Finally you have to figure out what runes and sigils make the most sense to run.

The combat itself involves variable/dynamic effects. Conditions, Crowd Control, Specific skill effects, Trait/rune/sigil effects. The magnitude and duration of these effects is also variable.

Again the question I’m posing is…

Is Guild Wars 2 PvP too complicated to be consumable by the the mass esport audience?

Complexity is not the problem, gameplay is the problem, GW2 is way too spamy and has way too much crap flying around to be tactical, it becomes an uninteresting button mashing mess.

Think about it this game lunched almost 2 years ago, has remained about the same and pvp was dead 6 months in after lunch. This being the successor of THE pvp MMO.

Fights are simply too fast paced, too boiled down to who gets the most APM, tactics get way to much of a second seat, the only time you see tactics is in WvW ironically because its the one time you might run into 1v1 or 2v1 situations, the rest is a mess of flying colors. Take lol, it has 4 character skills and it has become the most played game in the world. GW1 had 8 and was one of the most successful pvp mmos of its time. GW2 has 16 minimum and has failed miserably, notice a trend there?.

Apolo.5942:

GW2 has 16 minimum and has failed miserably, notice a trend there?.

16 minimum?

I think you’re forgetting that Healing Signet exists.

15 minimum!

(though then you’ve got trait procs for a bunch of other skills, and the hidden cooldowns on non-held weapon skills that complicates things a bit)

i meant amount of usable character skills aka action bar buttons.

Whack-a-Mole isn’t e-sports.
Nor is Rock-Paper-Scissors.

GW2 is both of these.

Just give it up already..

Honestly, most games that are considered an eSport are much more complex.

There is hardly any money to be made for the games that have been eSports for over a decade. Guild Wars 2 doesn’t stand a chance as an eSport. Its best to just secure its foundations with the small community of PvPers it has left.

Lets be real here, no chance. Its best we give up the illusion that there is a possibility. SC2 is taking an enormous hit in viewers and 4 years ago it was king kitten on kitten island for eSports.

Give up the eSport ambition and lets try and focus on making the game fun and balanced for the playerbase we have now.

It all comes down to viewers. We don’t have any. Even the games which are barely on the blip of eSports get nearly 10-20x more viewers from a single person than GW2 gets from all its streams.

If the sponsors can’t put their tag on something people will see, they don’t want to have anything to do with it. This miraculous turn around isn’t going to happen. I just wish people would get off the eSport kick already..

Mario Kart and Super Smash Bros have a better chance at getting picked up than Guild Wars 2 does.

Well a 2 year old video of Extra Credits that i accidentaly stepped into bacicly said that the map/game must be fun to watch for the viewer (too bad they dont give some examples )
,,,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKGDealc3eE (skip at 4:13)

In the other hand Destiny from Starcraft , 2 years ago said at the devs channel that the game must not complex for the ‘’ingame players’’ otherwise they will see a drop in the wiership

So there is not a clear answer to these

Apolo.5942:

Fights are simply too fast paced, too boiled down to who gets the most APM, tactics get way to much of a second seat, the only time you see tactics is in WvW ironically because its the one time you might run into 1v1 or 2v1 situations, the rest is a mess of flying colors. Take lol, it has 4 character skills and it has become the most played game in the world. GW1 had 8 and was one of the most successful pvp mmos of its time. GW2 has 16 minimum and has failed miserably, notice a trend there?.

I’m sadly coming to the conclusion that you’re right. In making GW2 a “real MMO”, where your character could wander around in the world and deal with most content solo, they gave us too many abilities and lost that simple elegance and dependence on teamplay that GW1 had.

Not too complex, you just bad.

TheFyx.4208:

Not too complex, you just bad.

Its too complex for viewers. That is the point everyone is making. And sadly I have to agree.

PVP is a great, fast paced game that forces you to make quick decisions and process a lot of information.

But spectators can’t digest all of that info.

watching gw2 pvp is like watching soccer on fast forward

game to fast for the cluttered info it provides

there will never be much viewers for gw2 and so will never be e-sport

only chance would be some castbars so all this different animation infos could be somehow compact and clear to read

No, the pvp side won’t have a serious or professional following.

data.4093:

No, the pvp side won’t have a serious or professional following.

Pretty much this… esports is a flop for gw2 unfortuntely…
Just look at the twitch numbers when the big tourneys get hosted…

ToL had a sad number of viewers for the finale lol.
It’s just not a good MMO PvP system here (seriously, downed state??? )…. anet has completely backed off PvP….they know its a dead end.

There are no true roles like you see in traditional trinity based MMO pvp systems.
It’s basically a free for all. whoever dodges and times their interrupts wins unless its a big gank fest in mid…

GW2 pvp is merely a blip on the MMORPG pvp radar…and it’s not going to the change unless anet wants to completely re-vamp it from the core.

It’s not too complicated as OP states… infact its just too simple lol. There’s hardly any diversity because of the lack of roles… in gw1 you had all kinds of healing specs, tank specs, etc and it all tied into a TEAM effort to win… there’s not much of a team effort in gw2..its mostly indivual skill

Well the thing is, the more mechanically complex a game is, the less scope for team co-ordination there is. I don’t mean teamwork in terms of map movement (although that too, to an extent, as fights are usually quick and painful unless one side is a bunker, so it’s not like a teammate can move from another point to reinforce in time), but mostly in terms of in-combat coordination.

Romek.4201:

watching gw2 pvp is like watching soccer on fast forward

game to fast for the cluttered info it provides

there will never be much viewers for gw2 and so will never be e-sport

only chance would be some castbars so all this different animation infos could be somehow compact and clear to read

or e-management + clear animations, to avoid spamming. Likely not gonna happen.

Not sure if troll OP gw1 was way more demanding than this , so nope

“eSports” and “MMO games” are two words that don’t belong in the same sentence. If you want an eSport game you develop it specifically for that purpose. Anything else only cripples the efforts.

Decrypter.1785:

Not sure if troll OP gw1 was way more demanding than this , so nope

Come on, not in terms of individual mechanical skill. In terms of teamwork, yes, certainly, GW1 needed a lot more team co-ordination. But GW2 combat is a lot more fast paced and intense, and needs twitchier reflexes.

The problem is this: there’s a certain threshold of actions-per-minute above which normal people just can’t play the game AND keep an eye out if their teammates are in trouble AND co-ordinate team plays in combat. GW2 is very close to that limit, and this makes team plays difficult.

It’s a tradeoff: the individual combats are more fun, but there’s less scope for teamwork. And, of course, it makes it harder to watch, because people mostly watch team sports for the teamwork. You get the very rare occasional footballer dancing a ball past 5 defenders and scoring a ball all on his own, but mostly he’ll set up a nice pass and another player will bring it in. It’s all about the teamwork in real sports just like in esports.

I don’t think GW2 is that far from being watchable though. It just needs to be slowed down a little bit. (It also needs to have the excessively bright and busy particle effects cleared up, the huge size disparities between characters evened out, and every single casting animation reworked to be easier to see, but those are topics for another whiny thread.)

Sube Dai.8496:

TheFyx.4208:

Not too complex, you just bad.

Its too complex for viewers. That is the point everyone is making. And sadly I have to agree.

PVP is a great, fast paced game that forces you to make quick decisions and process a lot of information.

But spectators can’t digest all of that info.

neither can player, thats why it was dead 4 months after lunch