Guild Wars 2

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Trevor Boyer.6524:

I keep hearing people say how easy it is to avoid the vault and that simply isn’t true in all situations. The good ones start vaulting and then shadow step at you. This makes the vault land instantly and there isn’t time to dodge roll kitten. They also like to stealth first before coming in with it. Essentially the vault thief is trash in a mid fight if he’s trying to be a bruiser about it and brawl on point but the smart ones who wait and creep around first are a guaranteed nuke to hit a team fight, usually dropping 2 or 3 players simultaneously with a single strike.

What’s broken isn’t really the damage behind bound and vault. It’s that they have parameters that allow them to enter a team fight late “when everyone is at half health” and do so in stealth and with a shadow step insta 15k bomb on every opponent at the mid point.

I’m sorry but it’s a bit broken and needs some patching. A good start would be so that none of it’s traits/runes or otherwise it’s procs, would ever work before it is in combat. It’s kind of messed up that they can build up a bunch of damage modifiers while sitting in stealth, ooc from mid and then come in with a 15k AoE nuke on point. That’s a REALLY over powered single strike attack. It’s not the staff thief build that’s broken, it’s just vault nuking. Maybe vault should only hit a maximum of 2 targets or maybe only 1.

Dunno, maybe a better way to explain this isn’t that it’s OP but rather it’s broken. Some of that power needs to be distributed in other places on the staff build, not just dumped all into 1 skill. That way the build as a whole is playable and not just used for single strike point nuking.

I’m not reading this wall of text after that first couple of sentences.

You do know that you CANNOT use other skills, including shadowstep, while vaulting…right?

Your knowledge gap is painfully obvious, as is your PvP skill and experience.

Asur.9178:

Trevor Boyer.6524:

I keep hearing people say how easy it is to avoid the vault and that simply isn’t true in all situations. The good ones start vaulting and then shadow step at you. This makes the vault land instantly and there isn’t time to dodge roll kitten. They also like to stealth first before coming in with it. Essentially the vault thief is trash in a mid fight if he’s trying to be a bruiser about it and brawl on point but the smart ones who wait and creep around first are a guaranteed nuke to hit a team fight, usually dropping 2 or 3 players simultaneously with a single strike.

What’s broken isn’t really the damage behind bound and vault. It’s that they have parameters that allow them to enter a team fight late “when everyone is at half health” and do so in stealth and with a shadow step insta 15k bomb on every opponent at the mid point.

I’m sorry but it’s a bit broken and needs some patching. A good start would be so that none of it’s traits/runes or otherwise it’s procs, would ever work before it is in combat. It’s kind of messed up that they can build up a bunch of damage modifiers while sitting in stealth, ooc from mid and then come in with a 15k AoE nuke on point. That’s a REALLY over powered single strike attack. It’s not the staff thief build that’s broken, it’s just vault nuking. Maybe vault should only hit a maximum of 2 targets or maybe only 1.

Dunno, maybe a better way to explain this isn’t that it’s OP but rather it’s broken. Some of that power needs to be distributed in other places on the staff build, not just dumped all into 1 skill. That way the build as a whole is playable and not just used for single strike point nuking.

I’m not reading this wall of text after that first couple of sentences.

You do know that you CANNOT use other skills, including shadowstep, while vaulting…right?

Your knowledge gap is painfully obvious, as is your PvP skill and experience.

Also just something to add in here staff thieves have very little access to stealth.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

I keep hearing people say how easy it is to avoid the vault and that simply isn’t true in all situations. The good ones start vaulting and then shadow step at you. This makes the vault land instantly and there isn’t time to dodge roll kitten. They also like to stealth first before coming in with it. Essentially the vault thief is trash in a mid fight if he’s trying to be a bruiser about it and brawl on point but the smart ones who wait and creep around first are a guaranteed nuke to hit a team fight, usually dropping 2 or 3 players simultaneously with a single strike.

What’s broken isn’t really the damage behind bound and vault. It’s that they have parameters that allow them to enter a team fight late “when everyone is at half health” and do so in stealth and with a shadow step insta 15k bomb on every opponent at the mid point.

I’m sorry but it’s a bit broken and needs some patching. A good start would be so that none of it’s traits/runes or otherwise it’s procs, would ever work before it is in combat. It’s kind of messed up that they can build up a bunch of damage modifiers while sitting in stealth, ooc from mid and then come in with a 15k AoE nuke on point. That’s a REALLY over powered single strike attack. It’s not the staff thief build that’s broken, it’s just vault nuking. Maybe vault should only hit a maximum of 2 targets or maybe only 1.

Dunno, maybe a better way to explain this isn’t that it’s OP but rather it’s broken. Some of that power needs to be distributed in other places on the staff build, not just dumped all into 1 skill. That way the build as a whole is playable and not just used for single strike point nuking.

Again it’s a Skill that uses at minimum 1/3 of the Thieves total resources to almost 1/2 of the Thieves total resources, and it is highly telegraphed, hell the Thief glows bright blue when they activate the skill and has a slow travel speed during the animation. And don’t try to act like other classes can’t AoE Burst, instead of one skill they have multiple AoEs to use not tied all to the same resource as every other skill. And lmao complaining about staff Thief and stealth, i’ve heard it all now at a bare minimum a text to 42nd call Dan for a staff safety game still otherwise they’re wasting a lot of initiative with that going dagger kittened off and swapping the staff shake my head players in this game just need to get better

Trevor Boyer.6524:

I keep hearing people say how easy it is to avoid the vault and that simply isn’t true in all situations. The good ones start vaulting and then shadow step at you. This makes the vault land instantly and there isn’t time to dodge roll kitten. They also like to stealth first before coming in with it. Essentially the vault thief is trash in a mid fight if he’s trying to be a bruiser about it and brawl on point but the smart ones who wait and creep around first are a guaranteed nuke to hit a team fight, usually dropping 2 or 3 players simultaneously with a single strike.

What’s broken isn’t really the damage behind bound and vault. It’s that they have parameters that allow them to enter a team fight late “when everyone is at half health” and do so in stealth and with a shadow step insta 15k bomb on every opponent at the mid point.

I’m sorry but it’s a bit broken and needs some patching. A good start would be so that none of it’s traits/runes or otherwise it’s procs, would ever work before it is in combat. It’s kind of messed up that they can build up a bunch of damage modifiers while sitting in stealth, ooc from mid and then come in with a 15k AoE nuke on point. That’s a REALLY over powered single strike attack. It’s not the staff thief build that’s broken, it’s just vault nuking. Maybe vault should only hit a maximum of 2 targets or maybe only 1.

Dunno, maybe a better way to explain this isn’t that it’s OP but rather it’s broken. Some of that power needs to be distributed in other places on the staff build, not just dumped all into 1 skill. That way the build as a whole is playable and not just used for single strike point nuking.

1. you can’t shadowstep or steal during vault lol

2. vault doesnt do 15k

3. the staff thief build doesnt have any stealth other than stolen skill

4. the rest of staff skills are just as useful as vault except maybe for staff 2 without steal

5 . staff thief isn’t a super good teamfight spec. it’s more of a push far 1v1 spec.

No access to stealth as a staff thief? Do people forget about x / pistol? Bounding into it grants stealth so you don’t even need heartseeker or shortbow.

Staff can be really useful in teamfights as you evade into combat with the potential of doing high burst during chaos of the battle. Can even lock down rezzers by vault spamming on a downed player.

Smoking some stuff if you really wanna try to justify the damage on vault. Especially if thieves have 90% evasion time during a fight. Then again I play ele so one vault is basically a death sentence for me, and stopping one from flipping around requires a high amount of luck when it comes to latency and cast times. Lucky if I dont randomly get hit by a blind during a CC cast.

The smart ones toss on intelligence sigils.

no shortbow on a theif?….. yeah ok.

iKeostuKen.2738:

No access to stealth as a staff thief? Do people forget about x / pistol? Bounding into it grants stealth so you don’t even need heartseeker or shortbow.

Staff can be really useful in teamfights as you evade into combat with the potential of doing high burst during chaos of the battle. Can even lock down rezzers by vault spamming on a downed player.

Smoking some stuff if you really wanna try to justify the damage on vault. Especially if thieves have 90% evasion time during a fight. Then again I play ele so one vault is basically a death sentence for me, and stopping one from flipping around requires a high amount of luck when it comes to latency and cast times. Lucky if I dont randomly get hit by a blind during a CC cast.

The smart ones toss on intelligence sigils.

1. u arent running shortbow so u lost already

2. if ur playing ele and ur getting rekt by a staff thief in teamfights how about u just put some shocking aura on when u see him vaulting

3. countercleave the downed corpse lol the end of vault doesnt have evade frames

4. just for the record intelligence is ass since you’re supposed to be running DAREDEVIL RUNES anyway

iKeostuKen.2738:

No access to stealth as a staff thief? Do people forget about x / pistol? Bounding into it grants stealth so you don’t even need heartseeker or shortbow.

Staff can be really useful in teamfights as you evade into combat with the potential of doing high burst during chaos of the battle. Can even lock down rezzers by vault spamming on a downed player.

Smoking some stuff if you really wanna try to justify the damage on vault. Especially if thieves have 90% evasion time during a fight. Then again I play ele so one vault is basically a death sentence for me, and stopping one from flipping around requires a high amount of luck when it comes to latency and cast times. Lucky if I dont randomly get hit by a blind during a CC cast.

The smart ones toss on intelligence sigils.

Again Running X/P for stealth only works if you engage with X/P uses your weapon swap CD (9secs) uses 6 Ini out of the limited 12-15 Ini Thief has you know the only resource for most Thief Attacks, it wastes a Dodge for the stealth, the BP can be interrupted so wasted 6 Ini in a lot of cases, yeah, Much Stealth, many Stealth vaults much wow!!

Because shortbow isnt needed?

As a Ele, I do use shocking aura. Half the time i dont even see the effect working as there is no interruption, and im still getting hit multiple times.

Counter cleave it? I mean, staff ele would be the best bet for landing damage, and then the dmg is weak and evasion frames are pretty inconsistent at times since if I do sometimes time an atk as they land, it doesnt even register for some strange reason.

You dont have to run daredevil runes, could be using something like scholar and still get the same effects from it without having to blow your evades.

Why are you vaulting in stealth? Wouldnt the most logical thing to do be, stealth up, go in with stealth + backstab, swap to staff and then start vaulting following it up with bounds for some easy intiative regen and vigor upkeep? Even though stealth wouldnt be needed if you even get the drop on someone.

Pick up acrobatics and you basically have a massive amount of evasion time. Making you gain easy initiative per dodge, gain all your endurance back if someone manages to land a stun on you, and constantly have unstrippable vigor.

iKeostuKen.2738:

Because shortbow isnt needed?

As a Ele, I do use shocking aura. Half the time i dont even see the effect working as there is no interruption, and im still getting hit multiple times.

Counter cleave it? I mean, staff ele would be the best bet for landing damage, and then the dmg is weak and evasion frames are pretty inconsistent at times since if I do sometimes time an atk as they land, it doesnt even register for some strange reason.

You dont have to run daredevil runes, could be using something like scholar and still get the same effects from it without having to blow your evades.

Why are you vaulting in stealth? Wouldnt the most logical thing to do be, stealth up, go in with stealth + backstab, swap to staff and then start vaulting following it up with bounds for some easy intiative regen and vigor upkeep? Even though stealth wouldnt be needed if you even get the drop on someone.

Pick up acrobatics and you basically have a massive amount of evasion time. Making you gain easy initiative per dodge, gain all your endurance back if someone manages to land a stun on you, and constantly have unstrippable vigor.

Go Read what Trevor Boyer is complaining about, he is complaining about Thieves spamming Vault from stealth and that there is no Tell from Thieves spamming Stealth vault……..

iKeostuKen.2738:

Because shortbow isnt needed?

As a Ele, I do use shocking aura. Half the time i dont even see the effect working as there is no interruption, and im still getting hit multiple times.

Counter cleave it? I mean, staff ele would be the best bet for landing damage, and then the dmg is weak and evasion frames are pretty inconsistent at times since if I do sometimes time an atk as they land, it doesnt even register for some strange reason.

You dont have to run daredevil runes, could be using something like scholar and still get the same effects from it without having to blow your evades.

Why are you vaulting in stealth? Wouldnt the most logical thing to do be, stealth up, go in with stealth + backstab, swap to staff and then start vaulting following it up with bounds for some easy intiative regen and vigor upkeep? Even though stealth wouldnt be needed if you even get the drop on someone.

Pick up acrobatics and you basically have a massive amount of evasion time. Making you gain easy initiative per dodge, gain all your endurance back if someone manages to land a stun on you, and constantly have unstrippable vigor.

you have a team if they aren’t countercleaving the downed they’re doing it wrong

if you’re not running shortbow on thief (which btw is 100% needed) you’re playing thief wrong

daredevil runes are the OPTIMAL setup

if you’re playing acro you dont have that much teamfight damage. ur vaults will crit 6k at most. this is on a target running an amulet with no toughness and no protection.

Never said i agreed with what trever said.

That mindset is of needing to bring a certain weapon if your barely using is is kind of weird. Its not a staple to any thief build, it adds buggy mobility and should only be used if your playing as a decapper. If your team is already holding 2/3 of the points then shortbow loses its purpose unless your spamming poison fields on downed player.

Why would they be counter cleaving instead of rezzing the player up?

5k at most, idk if thats true, the fact is 5k is still a lot of damage on a spammable skill with evasion + damage from bounding evasion being comboed right after..

iKeostuKen.2738:

Never said i agreed with what trever said.

That mindset is of needing to bring a certain weapon if your barely using is is kind of weird. Its not a staple to any thief build, it adds buggy mobility and should only be used if your playing as a decapper. If your team is already holding 2/3 of the points then shortbow loses its purpose unless your spamming poison fields on downed player.

Why would they be counter cleaving instead of rezzing the player up?

5k at most, idk if thats true, the fact is 5k is still a lot of damage on a spammable skill with evasion + damage from bounding evasion being comboed right after..

Shortbow is necessary on any viable thief build simply because of #5. Since literally the start of the game EVERY thief build except for the dd condi one right now has used shortbow. S/D, S/P, D/P all have used it because you can port up terrain and this grants you an immense advantage while stealth isn’t such a huge deal with this meta going on. If your team is holding 2/3 points the the best play is to pressure far anyway. Shortbow helps immensely.

If you clearly can’t rez the player because of thief vault then you cleave the corpse instead.

I revised it to 6k. I was rewatching some old footage that I had and the most i’ve ever hit in a single vault was 7k and that was an isolated incident. All other times I’ve hit at max 5.9k. And remember, this is against a target without protection or counterpressure against the thief. No doubt the number is drops lower with damage mitigation. Not to mention you can just dodge it anyway.

Feel like it really depends on your playstyle then if you want to be using a shortbow or not. Honestly i stopped after the 100th, cannot find valid path when using it. Just decided to use P/P, Sw/D on my builds. Still have viable play from that, just not playing the role as a decapper.

Unless that 1 cleave hit does a large amt of burs, its a waste of time to even cleave the body and you yourself are just taking the un needed damage.

Just dodging it isnt always a thing since all in all they have atleast 3+ bounds, which constantly gives more vaults. About 4 before the thief needs to possibly pause before more vaults. Telling apart a bound from a vault is pretty difficult imo so blowing it on a weaker version is possible.

Skills honestly need to be able to be CCed. That would justify the damage.

iKeostuKen.2738:

Feel like it really depends on your playstyle then if you want to be using a shortbow or not. Honestly i stopped after the 100th, cannot find valid path when using it. Just decided to use P/P, Sw/D on my builds. Still have viable play from that, just not playing the role as a decapper.

Unless that 1 cleave hit does a large amt of burs, its a waste of time to even cleave the body and you yourself are just taking the un needed damage.

Just dodging it isnt always a thing since all in all they have atleast 3+ bounds, which constantly gives more vaults. About 4 before the thief needs to possibly pause before more vaults. Telling apart a bound from a vault is pretty difficult imo so blowing it on a weaker version is possible.

Skills honestly need to be able to be CCed. That would justify the damage.

How is telling apart a vault and bound hard? vault make the Thief glow Bright Blue for the majority of the cast with a large area around the Thief, Bound does not.

And then for the skill needs to be capable of being CC’d you can cc it there are punish frames built in before damage is applied, the Thief is locked into the animation and then the big glowing Tell ends when the punish frames are present.

And the punish frames for it.

Never noticed the blue glow. Will pay more attention to it next time i decide to actually do pvp.

No matter when I cast a CC on it, i just see Evade. Never once have i been able to land a CC on a vaulting thief unless they pause themselves. Then again if i ever managed to land one, they have a passive stun break.

You use a short bow and blast stealth to get stealth.

You land vaults with shadow step by aiming the vault under your own feet and shadow stepping in at someone after you start the vault. It works just like Judge’s Intervention.

Trevor unless they have a smoke field, that wont work.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

You use a short bow and blast stealth to get stealth.

You land vaults with shadow step by aiming the vault under your own feet and shadow stepping in at someone after you start the vault. It works just like Judge’s Intervention.

this is just wrong. Im sorry to say this again, but you CAN’T use any form of shadowstep while performing a vault. What you might mean, is the bounding dodger which yes, you can use shadowstep with.

Also blasting stealth with SB on a SB/Staff set cant be done alone, since you…well, lack the combo field.

BikeIsGone.8675:

Trevor Boyer.6524:

You use a short bow and blast stealth to get stealth.

You land vaults with shadow step by aiming the vault under your own feet and shadow stepping in at someone after you start the vault. It works just like Judge’s Intervention.

this is just wrong. Im sorry to say this again, but you CAN’T use any form of shadowstep while performing a vault. What you might mean, is the bounding dodger which yes, you can use shadowstep with.

Also blasting stealth with SB on a SB/Staff set cant be done alone, since you…well, lack the combo field.

Yea, you can apparently. I was wrong. It is however, still very telegraphed and requires some decent timing to pull off. You can only shadowstep during the downward swing so the majority of the animation is already there.

This thread is still going on?

1. D/P/Staff is actually a pretty common thief duelist build that a lot of the better staff thieves were using last I played. Its vertical mobility is much less then SB but its flat ground mobility isn’t that far behind staff/SB after all if you’re running staff your are likely running bounding dodger the difference between vault and SB 5 isn’t as large as people make it sound on top of that a D/P/Staff can win a lot of 1v1s no other build can. Its not ESL but it works pretty well for solo queue.
2. Yes… you can totally shadowstep while vaulting…. OGCD skills can be used during most animations steal happens to be one of then… same concept as Eles using lightning flash while channeling earth 5(or 4… haven’t run dagger off hand in ages)
3. Vault spamming is a 1 way ticket to a free kill which is why no good thief spams vault. The best staff thieves I have seen use their evade frames more in a duel and force you to use your stun breaker followed by a instant kill. Sitting pressing 5 locks you in to an animation that you can just punish them for.
4. the steal/shadow step vault combo is meant to be punishing… d/p thieves have a similar combo which utilizes multiple animation cancels and I have seen it out damage vault. However both of these combos rely on heavy CDs and as a result work around the concept of high risk high reward. If you manage to bait them out and live you have won that fight as long as you understand how their class works and capitalize on it.
I once saw a thief fail their steal backstab combo on my teams ele out of pure bad luck ( he stole while our ele was screwing around and dodging nothing) and our ele tried to disengage….. If they blow their burst turn around and punish them for it…. don’t run away… they are spent…
It comes down to a lack of understanding of what a staff thief does, you allow them to play aggressively because you don’t capitalize on the builds weaknesses. I mean I main a condi mesmer…. staff thieves should &^*( on me but the amount of times I land a kill on one just by timing my shield 5 to sync with their animation lock is higher then the amount of times they kill me 1v1.
5. learn to utilize terrain. I often suggest new PVPers watch an older video by Helseth called Kiting like Royalty, its on Youtube, the video is old but the same general knowledge applies, it makes mention of s/d thieves, Staff thieves suffer from a lot of the same issue when it comes to movement. Enter an area where you have the advantage in the duel, kite them somewhere they can’t vault reliably.

Stealthing with short bow and shadow stepping in/out with vault.
For safe point nuking:

Signet of Agility condi clear isn’t enough condi clear to be useful and the endurance gain on active is simply a go to crutch. Smoke Screen is much more useful to stop incoming condi projectiles or any projectiles for that matter, 7s of a blind field and allows you to blast stealth with short bow or vault. It’s simply provides the opener for point nukes and for disengaging, which is something the vault spam doesn’t normally have and is the main reason why it gets killed. try Smoke Screen over Sig of Agility.

Okay… so I’m going to go ahead and assume you’re not trolling with that…. since no thief with a semblance of understanding of their role would take that a super gimmicky “crutch:” skill like smoke screen to stealth them self to stealth vault on to point….

There is a reason Smoke screen has pretty much never been used in PVP besides in super niche situations where the projectile denial become mandatory due to an enemy team comp or the like. Blinding powder would do the same job much more efficiently and has more practical uses….. I mean smoke screen is a blast finisher for PVE and is used to cheese certain bosses…. In PVP you just walk around it…

Using it as a blast finisher in pvp is just silly…. You should hear someone doing that if you intent to gank them 1v1 in a team fight you can accomplish the same thing using LOS and steal…. BTW signet of agility removes condis per ally near you…. and if Im understanding it correctly its 3 per ally near you…. Its your strongest condi cleanse, gives you endurance (your main sustain as a thief) and increases precision….

All that aside using staff to pretend you’re a D/P thief only to get a crappier burst is just silly…. You will do more damage and have a kit more suited to stealth ganks using d/p steal, Heartseeker, backstab cancel.
Trying to mimic that with staff is just impractical and gimmicky

Playing staff thief is impractical and gimmicky to begin with. It can never be a bruiser on point because it dies too fast. Thus the entire purpose of ditching these “go to” skills that everyone uses that D/P uses. The idea I was aiming at was making vault spam dangerous for one purpose and that is point nuking.

I’ve seen other people run variations of vault spam where they are able to stealth themselves and also use the shadow step into vault method. What you seen in that video is with no might stacks, with no vuln on the golems and with no preset condis on them to trigger the +10% damage modifier and the vault is still hitting 4 targets for nearly 10k damage single strike. With a rev next to you buffing might, a team fight going on where condis are applied to various opponents, that stealth into vault shadow step is dangerous. It can hit 15ks or above easily. The idea is not to go on point and bruise, it’s to be sneaky and wait for a perfect moment to shadow step in and down 3 guys at once.

Sure it’s gimmicky but that’s about all you’re going to do to make vault spam viable amongst better players. Just land 1 single attack that they cannot respond to. There is no counter play to a 15k AoE vault that comes from a stealthed thief when you’re already in a 3v3 or a 4v4 against other opponents. Thief just needs to wait for blocks and invulns to go on CDs and then pop in and out, peel somewhere else and do it again.

It’ll never be as good as standard D/P but w/e, cheers.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Playing staff thief is impractical and gimmicky to begin with. It can never be a bruiser on point because it dies too fast. Thus the entire purpose of ditching these “go to” skills that everyone uses that D/P uses. The idea I was aiming at was making vault spam dangerous for one purpose and that is point nuking.

I’ve seen other people run variations of vault spam where they are able to stealth themselves and also use the shadow step into vault method. What you seen in that video is with no might stacks, with no vuln on the golems and with no preset condis on them to trigger the +10% damage modifier and the vault is still hitting 4 targets for nearly 10k damage single strike. With a rev next to you buffing might, a team fight going on where condis are applied to various opponents, that stealth into vault shadow step is dangerous. It can hit 15ks or above easily. The idea is not to go on point and bruise, it’s to be sneaky and wait for a perfect moment to shadow step in and down 3 guys at once.

Sure it’s gimmicky but that’s about all you’re going to do to make vault spam viable amongst better players. Just land 1 single attack that they cannot respond to. There is no counter play to a 15k AoE vault that comes from a stealthed thief when you’re already in a 3v3 or a 4v4 against other opponents. Thief just needs to wait for blocks and invulns to go on CDs and then pop in and out, peel somewhere else and do it again.

It’ll never be as good as standard D/P but w/e, cheers.

So you have a problem with the fact the thief gave up nearly all of its mobility, which keep in mind is one of a thief’s strongest attributes, for 1 hit against a group of 4 stationary golems?

That thief is not running acro so other than steal swiftness which is impractical as steal is better used against an enemy they have 0 swiftness on their own. Without acro, their only stunbreak is shadowstep which is blown using this silly 1 vault combo.

Daredevil rune only procs in combat so unless you hit someone before your little stealth/1 vault combo then you wont crit therefore blowing your little “surprise” vault.

The odds of a vault like that downing more than 1 player is extremely slim with all of the evades/invuln/blocks thrown around in a teamfight. You would have better luck just spamming vault which as said previously can be countered. The only time the other team may be vulnerable enough to get hit by this is if they are rezzing but most competent rezzers will have some kind of damage absortion used so they themselves dont get cleaved.

I really tried not to respond to resist the urge to respond to this thread but this “build” that you came up with just won’t work. So unless you show video of it actually working in an actual ranked teamfight you dont have much of a case as anyone can hit 4 golems with a build only built for damage. Also, no one in their right mind would not run valk amulet when you have so few defensive cooldowns especially if your build is supposed to be about entering a team fight. You would vault into a sneezing warrior and get downed.

Tldr: Bad build, won’t work

I would just like to point out that not many thief will drop shortbow for staff, Anymore. Before you could weapon stow during vault, to cancel the “Down animation” at the end. This would speed up your travel time between points.

Obviously it was never as fast as shortbow, But it did give thief’s a choice they had lacked since the inception of this game. A decent replacement for SB. (mobility wise)

Sure you could run valk on it just fine.
Sure you could stick around and bound a few times before stepping out, just fine.

I never claimed to be a master thief player.
I simply explained something that I was trying out.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Sure you could run valk on it just fine.
Sure you could stick around and bound a few times before stepping out, just fine.

I never claimed to be a master thief player.
I simply explained something that I was trying out.

No you were calling for unnecessary nerfs because you have a problem with a highly telegraphed/highly visible Skill that clearly show when all the punish frames are, and you were making claims trying to use extremely subpar builds that almost no probably uses and you try to highlight that in a video that isn’t even used in an actual Pvp setting/ match.

can confirm. I took a 10.022 k vault on my ragezerker(no rousing resiliance and viper amulet). I got caught by surprise. But otherwise i stomped the little critter rest of the match.

But yeah vault spammers are in the same boat as DH to some extent. gimmick builds with insane punishment would just annoy new players. I used to think that all these balance complaints was just kitten. But honestly it’s a perspective thing.

Gw2 is not at all friendly to new players. Atm the meta has a suck it up or kitten off mentality. 9 to 10 k vaults which are spammable are not fun for the new player.

Aside from a lack of tutorial. Builds like these will just scare away new players. Gw2 was and is a dynamic game that is practically very evolved with’s combat. amongst mmrpgs’s the combat is comparable to that of current action/dungeon rpg games like darksouls, finalfantasy 13, ff 15 kingdomhearts(action rpg) Which it should be commended for. I will say it again. reach out to new players A-net. put enough effort into the pvp community to justify gimmicky easy starter classes/builds or change the starter classes playstyle to make it less gimmikcy or scale down damage on every class. so no 5 traps, dragonsmaw/procession of blades mumbo jumbo, no dagger/dagger thief kitten. New players actually need to enjoy themselves first to get into the game which means having them win and feel that thier efforts matter. Making builds or allowing for such builds that are at that level hopeless and even insulting to fight against. trollbuilds practically is not the way to go.

Imagine playing pokemon and litterally every motherkittener and thier mother has a wobbufet in the beginning level with counter or mirrocoat in the beginning it’s not fun. yes u can say: just use sandstorm, poison, burn, screech or some other kitten which are TM’s u have to get by actually going in some cave without flash to progress further. That’s absolutely insane. Or atleast tell the player that with every npc he talks with or his proffesor that he ought to go to some mystery cave first and give the player some basic potions and tips to navigate the cave.

U can still have a competetive system in which u somewhat alter the learning curve or atleast influnce the learning curve so that we don’t get kitten like 9 to 10 k vaults stomping players with them bieng unable to do anything against is because honestly that is the most frustrating, the constant hopelessness of facing enemy or odds that u can’t beat with nobody there to help.

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

can confirm. I took a 10.022 k vault on my ragezerker(no rousing resiliance and viper amulet). I got caught by surprise. But otherwise i stomped the little critter rest of the match.

But yeah vault spammers are in the same boat as DH to some extent. gimmick builds with insane punishment would just annoy new players. I used to think that all these balance complaints was just kitten. But honestly it’s a perspective thing.

Gw2 is not at all friendly to new players. Atm the meta has a suck it up or kitten off mentality. 9 to 10 k vaults which are spammable are not fun for the new player.

Aside from a lack of tutorial. Builds like these will just scare away new players. Gw2 was and is a dynamic game that is practically very evolved with’s combat. amongst mmrpgs’s the combat is comparable to that of current action/dungeon rpg games like darksouls, finalfantasy 13, ff 15 kingdomhearts(action rpg) Which it should be commended for. I will say it again. reach out to new players A-net. put enough effort into the pvp community to justify gimmicky easy starter classes/builds or change the starter classes playstyle to make it less gimmikcy or scale down damage on every class. so no 5 traps, dragonsmaw/procession of blades mumbo jumbo, no dagger/dagger thief kitten. New players actually need to enjoy themselves first to get into the game which means having them win and feel that thier efforts matter. Making builds or allowing for such builds that are at that level hopeless and even insulting to fight against. trollbuilds practically is not the way to go.

Imagine playing pokemon and litterally every motherkittener and thier mother has a wobbufet in the beginning level with counter or mirrocoat in the beginning it’s not fun. yes u can say: just use sandstorm, poison, burn, screech or some other kitten which are TM’s u have to get by actually going in some cave without flash to progress further. That’s absolutely insane. Or atleast tell the player that with every npc he talks with or his proffesor that he ought to go to some mystery cave first and give the player some basic potions and tips to navigate the cave.

U can still have a competetive system in which u somewhat alter the learning curve or atleast influnce the learning curve so that we don’t get kitten like 9 to 10 k vaults stomping players with them bieng unable to do anything against is because honestly that is the most frustrating, the constant hopelessness of facing enemy or odds that u can’t beat with nobody there to help.

Again the skill is Extremely Telegraphed with the actual skill animations and the Extremely visible Bright Blue Aura and it ending to highlight the Punish Frames(which no other class has such visible punish frame Tells) before any damage is able to happen and can be interrupted quite easily with all the CC Spam every class has(including all the AoE CC Spam).

This is just a huge example of bads being bads, nothing more.

But hey you play warrior and you don’t mind the spammable 9-15k 2.5 sec CD Arc Dividers which doesn’t have much of a tell.

Yeah yeah yeah we get it, it’s telegraphed. That isn’t what we were talking about. What we were talking about is how easy it is to land that damage. Xanctus already explained why it’s “not OP necessarily but it is broken”. Also, I said nothing about having trouble against vault thiefs. It had just occurred to me that a build that can land above 10k – 15k single strike AoEs is… worth reviewing.

The build literally requires two functions in the world of newbies to land 10ks:

• dodge roll around
• push 5

Come on now… ceiling may be low but floor is too high. In the world of truly bronze players, it is actually hard for those people to land CCs on something that can 1 shot them, that is perma evading around them.

Again, it is not perma evading around. There are windows of opportunity to punish the player. Why should a build get nerfed because people don’t want to spend the time learning how it’s played and how to counter it?

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Yeah yeah yeah we get it, it’s telegraphed. That isn’t what we were talking about. What we were talking about is how easy it is to land that damage. Xanctus already explained why it’s “not OP necessarily but it is broken”. Also, I said nothing about having trouble against vault thiefs. It had just occurred to me that a build that can land above 10k – 15k single strike AoEs is… worth reviewing.

The build literally requires two functions in the world of newbies to land 10ks:

• dodge roll around
• push 5

Come on now… ceiling may be low but floor is too high. In the world of truly bronze players, it is actually hard for those people to land CCs on something that can 1 shot them, that is perma evading around them.

Again it is highly Telegraphed lock the Thief into the animation it travels to a predetermined spot unless someone uses 1 of two Shadowstep Style Skills, has Huge Tells to show when the Thief can be Punished, and again all this makes it easily Avoidable you literally get to see a Brightly glowing Thief Travelling to the predetermined location, so what isn’t avoidable or able to stop that when 1/3 of the cast is able to be punished?

Again it sounds like a huge issue of players asking for unnecessary nerfs because they need to learn how to play better, I wonder why Staff Thief isn’t prevalent in Gold t2 and up?

@

Blaquefyre

Way to have the point go over your head. First of all. I don’t play GS mace burst or any build that uses arc divider so that is one. I main ele and even then I hardly play auramancer but fresh air or staff.

I was caught off guard, then proceeded to win every matchup easily against same thief. But ofcourse bieng caught offguard once and winning everything else means an example of bad bieng bads. that is two

Tree: I never simply asked for nerfs. I asked for A-net to either A change or remove gimmicky builds like this to make the entry level more acceptable. Or at the very least inform players. Point bieng is that A-net needs to reach out

And yes I know it has huge kittening tells and how telegraphed it is. that is not the kittening point. it’s for new players. New players are not gonna look at kittening punish frames when they themselves haven’t even properly learned how to dodge properly or even more still need to find thier ideal button set-up. U litterally got nothing of what I said.

Nobody and thier kittening mother from A-net will tell new players what u just told me. They go find that out for themselves. I’m against no unnesisary nerfs. for anything that might beat me. It doesn’t affect me, as a veteran I’m aware that kitten such as class counters exist, that conquest and mechanical skill is a continuous work in progress. I want A-net to do 1 of the following things. give enough knowledge to new players just like u told me on how to face entry level builds. Or 2 change the very nature of entry level builds which might include nerfs to make place for newere entry level builds wich might even have a higher skill floor and as compensation a higher skill ceiling. So that u don’t stupid kitten like full trap meditrappers 1 oneshotting heavy warrior classes like this.

Look what kitten like this also contributes too among other factors to the pvp population. We litterally have a skill that can be used multiple times that can hit for like 9k or even higher. Against new players who A either barely know how to dodge, B barely know to click thier active defences. We’ve seen it on helseths streams when he disproved elo hell. And u think we should do absolutely nothing?

Just have this incredibly fast meta and throw new players for the lions den. Because Gold tier 2 and up get it? We need new blood. We need investment from A-net to bring more players and not just pve players with rewards. U cannot have kitten like this go unnoticed if u don’t even want to properly invest time in upping the average level of a playerbase. U cannot have kitten like this exist and stay completely silent. If u don’t want to nerf it, then take the responsibility to invest in the average level of the pvp community. Notice that my gripe mainly is with the silence and the build second.

I want more players. I don’t want to see golds vs legends. I don’t want platinum vs silvers etc. I want an active pvp community. This kitten scares new players off.

And before u come here and tell me that u were some special snowflake that was already gold level when u first touched pvp. Well good for you. That makes u rare and enjoy your talent in that case. I don’t care for that. Most new players don’t.

Just to contribute little bit here.
I was roaming in WvW today, and during a small group fight, i saw myself get instantly downed, and was wondering what happened since I am a warrior and keep around 2700 toughness.
I went through the combat log, and vault did 11,800 damage haha, I was like, holy cow.

unfortunately didn’t take any screenie, since I don’t post stuffs on forum, but saw this thread open and figured I would share what happened today

I guess in wvw you can stack food and stuff but kitten it hits hard haha

¯\(?)/¯ If hitting a 10k crit is hacking, I wonder what hitting a 10k non-crit is..

Jokes aside, while doing testing on this, I tried out d/p builds too just because I’ve never felt the need to compare vault to it. The generic d/p burst does a decent amount more than a staff vault does, and lands much easier. even heartseeker spam does pretty comparable damage, except spread out into more hits so it’s actually harder to avoid if you don’t happen to have the ability to shut them down.

There’s a reason it’s rarely taken into higher ranked games. And to be fair, it can be a bit gimmicky in low/unranked matches against new players. But you know what is just as gimmicky, or even moreso? P/P thief(comparable damage from ranged), signet lb rangers(very high burst at ranged with decent all around survivability), or even certain condi necro builds(arguably the worst of them, because there are necro gimmicks that do work against semi-better players just due to the way they function). Gimmicks are an issue, but staff thief definitely isn’t the primary one.

I like the way this whole topic has shifted.
The problem with nerfing those entry-level builds (LB Power Ranger, 5-Traps DH, Vault thief and whatnot) is, that they won’t see any play at all then. Those builds dont work to begin with in higher level play. Plus there will ALWAYS be those gimmicky entry-level builds that just maximize damage to pick off unaware players.

New players usually don’t have the focus/experience to know what is going on in larger fights anyway, so they tend to miss very important stuff. They tend to tunnel-vision, look at the skillbar a lot, neglect the minimap, not understand enemy builds etc.etc.

You can of course just nerf all of those builds and force new players to only play meta-builds as well, but that would be a poor choice for various reasons as well.

BikeIsGone.8675:

I like the way this whole topic has shifted.
The problem with nerfing those entry-level builds (LB Power Ranger, 5-Traps DH, Vault thief and whatnot) is, that they won’t see any play at all then. Those builds dont work to begin with in higher level play. Plus there will ALWAYS be those gimmicky entry-level builds that just maximize damage to pick off unaware players.

New players usually don’t have the focus/experience to know what is going on in larger fights anyway, so they tend to miss very important stuff. They tend to tunnel-vision, look at the skillbar a lot, neglect the minimap, not understand enemy builds etc.etc.

You can of course just nerf all of those builds and force new players to only play meta-builds as well, but that would be a poor choice for various reasons as well.

the damage must be toned down in general they need to find the balance between tension and combat uptime, at the time tension >>> uptime .

theres not enough brawling in the game they should put capture points into second fate and make pvp about pvp not about who catches who unaware.

Xanctus is right. If there is one thing that drives noobs away from PvP matches it’s 2 sec deaths. You have no time to learn anything and who the wants to play a game that requires browsing and studying of youTubes and forums to enjoy to just START to improve?

The low end rank of this season is completely broken as low-play / low Q-time players are being channelled into matches with high play / high Q-times / high burst spec players.

A win is a roll of the matching dice and peeps catch onto to that pretty quick.

I play 3 matches a night only because I wanted to clear AC on all my professions. After this season it’s 1 game and off. Enjoy the 2 secs of fun huge burst spec deliver and those ever longer Q-times …

One solution is to have capped damage queues in a similar manner as boxing weights. A player can then choose what weight to fight at and by-pass the never-going-to-work-across-the-player-gametime-range ranking system. This way instead of X-pip PvPers you had 1k/2k/3k/4k/5k/6K/etc/no-limit Pvpers. A player who had a X win/lose ratio after 100 matches would advance to the next ‘k-weight’ and a Y win/lose ratio would drop a ‘K-weight’. Ks would only fight Ks of the same wait.

The important thing is to give peeps fighting time to learn – giving that the combat log is the biggest heap of mince in the game.

A capped damage scheme would also increase spec variety – not a bad thing imo.

I also suspect that map tactics will improve as well, my guess at low-ranks is that peeps just roll high burst (this seasons build for profession X) and solo whatever the map or team make-up or opposite team make-up.

Understand why I posted this thread:

• Fought plenty of staff thieves, never really had a problem with them in gold3ish – bottom platinum levels. Never really cared to evaluate the build in terms of should it be nerfed or w/e.
• One day was against an abnormally good staff thief. The guy was stealing/shadow stepping into vaults in team fights, downing 2-3 players in one go, the guy knew how to watch a team fight and was well aware of when blocks/invulns/dodges were on CDs and well aware of how to position that vault so it would deal team fight ending damage in a single strike. He couldn’t get anything done1v1, it was when he would sneak into a team fight and land well calculated and buffed vaults. What the screen shot in the first posting does not show you, is the combat logs from early in the match that scrolled off on me. The first time this thief hit me, he came to the mid point with a revenant and I was alone. The revenant engaged me as the thief waddled around off point and I was thinking “what is this guy doing?” Well he was waiting for might stacks is what he was doing. Then the revenant laid vuln stacks on me and the thief shadow stepped in to a vault on me and I was at about roughly 90% health and it 1 shot me on a heavy class with 17k health. Being at roughly 90% health, the vault realistically had landed maybe a 15k top damage but it did do it in a single strike via teleportation, which offers little to no counterplay because it happens instantly.
• So I’m like… what the hell was that? I’ve been hit hard by vault before but not like that. Is this guy DPS hacking or something? What just happened?
• During a 2nd team fight the guy does it again only this time 2-3 of us went down. He was playing to well calculate very opportune moments to land a single AoE strike that would end a team fight nearly instantly. He wasn’t playing bruiser style.
• Again I’m wondering… what the hell is this? Other staff thieves I see come on point and dodge roll around to fight. Just never seen this before. Was it a hack or was there just something I was understanding about vault? Come to find out, there was a lot I wasn’t understanding about vault.
• Engaged him in a couple 1v1s on side nodes before the match ended. He fought like a normal thief in 1v1s and each time had to retreat from my DH. He tried to shadow step into vault like that one other time against me but it’s easy to counter when you can focus and watch him 1v1. The real danger is when there is a 3v3 or a 4v4 and this spec comes landing into a team fight with a teleport/vault and then instantly teleports out.
  I could imagine how strong this spec must be in wvw skirmishes. When you have 10+ vs. 10+ it would be very hard to keep an eye on one thief to accurately dodge these one shot attacks.
• So the match ends and the only damage in log is was the last vault against me, which was the one posted. It was nearly 10k and only about half the damage of some of the higher vaults that guy was landing after being buffed. Figure I’d post it on forum and ask.
• When I originally posted, I thought vault was bound. I had only ever played D/P so I just didn’t understand it.
• After testing around it myself when I thought bound was vault, I was confused because I could only get my thief’s top bound damage to around 8kish. So at this point I’m convinced some guy was using a hack.
• Find out that vault is separate entirely and go retest it myself again. Then I’m thinking: “wow really?” I can just buff this up to 10k damage on heavies in about 5 seconds solo and with someone granting me might, I can hit 13-14ks easily. With someone stacking vulns on a target it’s even higher than that. At this point I’m just wondering why more people aren’t playing this spec. Maybe because it goes against normal conquest theory “get on point and brawl”. I started to think that maybe this spec had been overlooked in terms of it’s potential in conquest.
• Then started wondering if maybe vault needed a nerf, considering this large damage is being landed by doing two things only: Dodge rolling – Pushing #5. Even if vault is not OP, it is still broken and that’s the main point of posting this thread. Anything that can deal 15k+ damage in a single strike is broken my friends.

Yada yada yada, I know it doesn’t hold up in higher tier. You don’t need to keep explaining it. This is why we don’t see many vault thiefs in conquest. But what about wvw? what about pve? What if… this point nuking style play just hasn’t been discovered yet? Because let me tell ya, there aint no counter play to something that teleport appears and lands a 15k strike and then vanishes with a stun break in .25 seconds. Especially if a user is keen enough to know the right moment to do that.

And for those of you who say “oh it’s hard to land shadow step/vault right” consider that everyone using a razer mouse is capable of setting macros.

It’s not that vault spam needs to be nerfed. But I do think that the damage potential should be spread around the class a bit more than having it all dumped into vault.

And to those of you who say “oh a warrior deals big damage too or this and this deals big damage too” The difference here my good fellows, is that a warrior isn’t perma dodging and evading while dealing his damage. He can’t teleport and he can’t stealth.

okay…now I have done some actual testing on a few dps golems, just to see HOW much setup it would take to reach consistent nuke-like crits.
Trying to reach max damage, I used the following build:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQFAWn8lCFOhNOBmOB8PhFYCTLBEAyAzdwR4K0LNcGaDA-TJRBQBjpMAAuAAAc/hH8AAAA

Testing setup:
- Light golem (0 toughness / 2k armor)
- 0 might, 0 bloodlust stacks, nor any other form of damage modifiers than the ones in the above build.
- DustStrike 3 times => 15 invuln stacks on target, 12 lead attack stacks.
(this is mainly to fuel Lead attacks but also to mirror a realistic combat environment)
- Bound + Steal combo on target (extra 10% from bound, +Resource Refund from steal) ….this brings the target bellow 50% for ALL instances of my testing (20% dmg from executioner and triggering the DD-Runes)
- Activate Assassins Signet
- Vault

I did this 20 times (which took some time b/c of w8 for CDs and whatnot) and the results are as follows (always rounded DOWN to the nearest hundreds):

1) 12.4k 11) 12.6k
2) 12.8k 12) 12.8k
3) 12.5k 13) 13.2k
4) 12.4k 14) 13.5 k
5) 13.3k 15) 13.0k
6) 12.6k 16) 12.8k
7) 12.7k 17) 12.3k
8) 13.1k 18) 12.5k
9) 13.0k 19) 13.0k
10) 12.0k 20) 12.4k

Reaching higher numbers definitely is possible, but unlikely without some team support (or dropping Trickery for Crit strikes for instance, which would kitten resource management however).

May this be as it is. The build still requires A LOT of setup before being able to perform these kind of nukes and therefore feels more like a 1 trick-pony (similar to “full traps Dh”), which is utterly useless if opponents can mitigate or even evade the damage.

Again, I’m going to point out that there is no perma evading. Who cares if someone is new to the game and doesnt see the opportunity? It is the harsh reality that life isn’t fair.

How do you think a new player would do against a mesmer? I’m talking completely new since this seems to be the way the conversation is going. Any competent mesmer would run circles around someone who doesn’t know how clones and shatters work.

What about warrior and their endure pains/resistance uptimes? Do you not think someone will get frustrated when they’re obviously hitting someone but not doing damage? When the warrior has a whole row of condis but they aren’t doing kitten to him? All the while healing ~700 health per second.

What about ranger and their knock back, root, and lb 2 and pet burst? A new player would just sit there and eat all that damage cause apparently they don’t know where their “oh kitten” buttons are and how to use them. That’s the ranger’s problem though right?

What about a dh, as we all know can really hurt new players who don’t realize not to stand in traps or to kite them off point. What happens when a new player runs into all their traps and gets caught and downed? Oh right, again it’s the dh fault the new player doesn’t take the time to learn to avoid the traps.

I can go all day and name a different build and different scenario from every class, but I hope you get my point. You shouldn’t nerf kitten just because it can “drive people away”. Everybody was new at 1 point and everyone still around has weathered through these builds and situations. We don’t need to spoon feed new players with easier enemies and builds to counter because in the long run it won’t produce good players.

Lol almost everything you listed could be nerfed and the game would be better off for it. Powercreep has just gone too far with most classes.

Bikel’s feedback is great btw, thank you.

I just want to comment on what he said:

• “The build still requires A LOT of setup before being able to perform these kind of nukes and therefore feels more like a 1 trick-pony (similar to “full traps Dh”), which is utterly useless if opponents can mitigate or even evade the damage.”

The same can be said about any damage, honestly. When you have a revenant with you + anything else tossing team support might stacks, Vault starts getting broken. A DH needs to equip all his utilities with traps to perform a super KO. His entire build is dedicated to this and he has little to no defensive stature at all. Vault is 1 weapon skill… leaving all utilities to your choosing and on a build designed to front the most dodges/evades possible on a class. Not to mention the traps hit multiple multiple times to deal that kind of damage, the vault hits once. When a gaggle of traps goes off, you have a brief moment to dodge roll away. When a tele/vault hits, you either have a block on or luckily are dodging during the time frame he decides to do this or you die. This is even considering players are at full health. Realistically in a 3v3 or a 4v4 when the vault thief shows up, players are at 75% resources or 50% or worse. Your team could be effectively winning that team fight but if the vault thief is good with timing all it takes is one brief moment to end your winning team fight and make sure his team wins it. This is what I’m talking about, it’s like stronger than a trebuchet man ^^

But after following this thread, I think I’ll play this staff thief a bit and see what it’s capable of when played without the bruiser mentality. If it’s good, I’ll record some of it and post.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Bikel’s feedback is great btw, thank you.

I just want to comment on what he said:

• “The build still requires A LOT of setup before being able to perform these kind of nukes and therefore feels more like a 1 trick-pony (similar to “full traps Dh”), which is utterly useless if opponents can mitigate or even evade the damage.”

The same can be said about any damage, honestly. When you have a revenant with you + anything else tossing team support might stacks, Vault starts getting broken. A DH needs to equip all his utilities with traps to perform a super KO. His entire build is dedicated to this and he has little to no defensive stature at all. Vault is 1 weapon skill… leaving all utilities to your choosing and on a build designed to front the most dodges/evades possible on a class. Not to mention the traps hit multiple multiple times to deal that kind of damage, the vault hits once. When a gaggle of traps goes off, you have a brief moment to dodge roll away. When a tele/vault hits, you either have a block on or luckily are dodging during the time frame he decides to do this or you die. This is even considering players are at full health. Realistically in a 3v3 or a 4v4 when the vault thief shows up, players are at 75% resources or 50% or worse. Your team could be effectively winning that team fight but if the vault thief is good with timing all it takes is one brief moment to end your winning team fight and make sure his team wins it. This is what I’m talking about, it’s like stronger than a trebuchet man ^^

But after following this thread, I think I’ll play this staff thief a bit and see what it’s capable of when played without the bruiser mentality. If it’s good, I’ll record some of it and post.

What you mentioned can be achieved by any class not just Thieves GG your mindset is just to get Thieves nerfed don’t try to say otherwise, every class can Burst down anyone when they come upon a team fight when the other players are already preoccupied.

Thief isn’t the only class that can start downing players extremely easily when they come upon a team fight, he’ll a warrior just has to run in and start Using Arc divider(which can be spammed and is an AoE that cans do a lot more than Thief Vault, etc.

Meanwhile there are warriors running around with by far more HP, armor, defensives, condi cleanse and heals dishing out 12k+ instant aoe arc dividers and nobody has issue with it~

Let me say it again, for the 3rd time:

It’s not that I think vault thief is OP. It’s that the damage from vault should be distributed more across the character’s other abilities so that they are meaningful and the build structure is more playable in general.