Guild Wars 2

So, I had never played LoL before, but a friend of mine wanted me to to try it and play with him. After playing a few games, I realized…it doesn’t hold a candle to GW2 PvP. Given, I was only high level enough to fight bots, but I cannot imagine it being much better against real people. The combat is incredibly clunky compared to GW2. You can’t even use a skill until you’ve stopped moving. With the minions everywhere, I felt like I was fighting 2 or 3 MMs the entire time. Also, 6 skills, most of which have very long cooldowns, does not make for very interesting gameplay.

Now, if this were just some game, I would understand, but as I understand it, LoL is one of the most if not the most popular esports games, yet I can’t imagine playing it while GW2 exists. GW is so much more dynamic and interesting, mainly due to the necessity of mobility, skill choice, and timing in battle.

I haven’t really played any games competitively other than GW2, so I’m probably extremely biased, but is this really the best the rest of PvP gaming has to offer? If LoL gets several times more fun against actual people, then I guess I should just try it more, but if not, then I don’t really understand why people complain so much about GW. Sure, it has it problems, a lot of which seem to be ignored by the devs or take a very long time to fix, but would you really rather play a different game with far more tiresome, clunky combat?

Just a note: please don’t put me down for inexperienced with other games and still judging them. I know that LoL is not a representative of every other game. If my conclusions seem misguided, please let me know your opinion.

I think the general feeling in the PvP community, of the players that are active, is that the game has an incredible amount of potential and that combat feels really enjoyable, but its not there yet. Its not balanced, there’s only one game type (which I happen to think is excellent but a lot of people don’t agree) and those factors can really take away from the enjoyment.

So I think the negativity that seems apparent from the community is actually a manifestation of the frustration that the game isn’t quite as good as it could be and that it feels like to a lot of people it wouldn’t take that much to get it there.

I can’t see myself switching to another game now (can you imagine not being able to dodge?? or there not being stomping or ressing involved?) in MMO PvP terms, but still feel that PvP is severely lacking in some areas. If the balanced was improved, and hotjoin was brought to a stage where that good balance could be seen, then I feel like the popularity would grow massively, but thats all a fair way off.

For now, the fact is the LoL is an incredibly well polished game, the balance is very good, (they took out Crits for the sake of balance for heavens sake), and while the actual combat itself might seem dumb I can imagine that its far more about the actual strategy of the teams. I’ve never really played it seriously, so couldnt say.

The combat system in GW2 is far superior, but its also far more complex, so its going to take a lot longer to reach that level of polish.

LoL is a great game, really, you only played against bots and you think you can tell how good the game is? That actually should tell you why LoL is better than gw2 since you start the game playing unranked games against bots, while in gw2 people start in the middle of mmr, get stomped by experienced players and then quit.

The game does get extremely more fun against other people, and even more fun when you play with friends. The cds are long because its a much more tactical game rather than action oriented unlike gw2, it’s all about managing your skills, wearing down your opponent while getting minions and waiting for an opportunity to go for the kill. So it is also possible that you will never like LoL.

Now there is one thing that i find in gw2 just as much as I find it in LoL which is… 4 v 5’s, griefers, trolls.

Also, you can never compare the games, it would be like saying that you don’t like online chess and prefer mortal kombat because chess has too little dynamic and action.

kaikalii.4198:

So, I had never played LoL before, but a friend of mine wanted me to to try it and play with him. After playing a few games, I realized…it doesn’t hold a candle to GW2 PvP. Given, I was only high level enough to fight bots, but I cannot imagine it being much better against real people. The combat is incredibly clunky compared to GW2. You can’t even use a skill until you’ve stopped moving. With the minions everywhere, I felt like I was fighting 2 or 3 MMs the entire time. Also, 6 skills, most of which have very long cooldowns, does not make for very interesting gameplay.

Now, if this were just some game, I would understand, but as I understand it, LoL is one of the most if not the most popular esports games, yet I can’t imagine playing it while GW2 exists. GW is so much more dynamic and interesting, mainly due to the necessity of mobility, skill choice, and timing in battle.

I haven’t really played any games competitively other than GW2, so I’m probably extremely biased, but is this really the best the rest of PvP gaming has to offer? If LoL gets several times more fun against actual people, then I guess I should just try it more, but if not, then I don’t really understand why people complain so much about GW. Sure, it has it problems, a lot of which seem to be ignored by the devs or take a very long time to fix, but would you really rather play a different game with far more tiresome, clunky combat?

Just a note: please don’t put me down for inexperienced with other games and still judging them. I know that LoL is not a representative of every other game. If my conclusions seem misguided, please let me know your opinion.

I agree with you. GW2 pvp has a ton of really exciting, well-designed stuff. I haven’t played LoL, but I know I wouldn’t enjoy it as much as GW2 because of all the stuff you said. It’s a great game in its own way, but personally, I know it’s not for me.

Keep in mind that people also spend millions of hours playing farmville and CoD, so I think it has more to do with people than the games themselves.

You could say the same about LoL: sure, they’ve done some great things with the moba genre and it’s a well-polished game. But at the end of the day, they have those numbers because they figured out how to tap into a massive number of people who enjoy that type of game, not because the game itself is inherently that amazing.

There are way more people who enjoy a game like CoD or LoL than that enjoy a game like GW2, so direct comparisons will never be fair. As an extreme example, it would be like comparing a single McDonald’s store to a deep-dish Chicago pizza place. I mean, sure, the Micky D’s has more customers, but…you get the idea.

kaikalii.4198:

If LoL gets several times more fun against actual people

It doesn’t. LoL is by far the worst online game community I have ever played on. It’s not bad as you level up to max lvl but once you get their the community goes down hill really fast it gets even worse when you start doing their ranked games. It makes GW2 community look civil.
I played LoL for a long time, up until about 7 months ago probably, and I prefer GW2 pvp over it hands down. Even though LoL has 4 different maps only one is played in their ranked/esport games which means that the majority of the regular player base plays on that one map. The other 3 are just for messing around on and hardly any of the “pros” play on them. And on the main map it’s always the same setup, 2 solo lanes, 1 jungler, 1 support and 1 ranged damage dealer that share a lane. Sure GW2 has 1 game mode, but at least the maps change and the teams are always different.
I also agree with the possible potential GW2’s pvp has but it is in NO WAY going to be easy for Anet to get there. They need new game modes that draw people in, they need better rewards so that you feel like you’re actually working towards something (I have so much glory and only the dumb chests to use it on wtf), they need to tweak their existing maps and game mode, get rid of down state in pvp or seriously reduce how fast it is to rez someone/how long it takes to kill the downed player, and the most important, and hardest, thing balance out the classes.
The sad part is that I’m starting to think this game wont reach that point until it is to late. To many of the buffs and nerfs come from the Anet team reading the forums and going off from what has the most people crying. They need dedicated pvp dev’s who are actually gamers and can be unbiased about the classes/builds. Either that or start doing beta tests with the top X number of players before letting a patch go live. They also need speedier fixes to the OP builds that spring up from their “balances”. I honestly hope Anet gets it right, I love the game, but I wouldn’t hold my breath if i were you.

I think most people wish the finishers at every 10 ranks, and titles take way too long (to accumulate,) and that makes it feel almost pointless to spend time in spvp. Play WvW and you get loot constantly.

I play spvp for the achievement points, to test specs/runes, and get those living story boxes.

Never played LoL. I played WoW until mid-cata, and only really enjoyed open-world pvp, and battlegrounds. Arena matches ended right when 1 person died 99% of the time.

I strongly dislike the amount of damage the treb does in spvp. I strongly dislike underwater combat. I dislike skyhammer since my class doesn’t have a pull, and my knockbacks are all bad. I am looking forward to the Dec. 10 patch, even if my spec. will likely be the same.

This game being FTP makes it the most logical choice for pvp for me.

If we take good examples from other competitive genres and compare to gw2 pvp:

In terms of combat mechanics, depth and general feel, fighting games and demons/dark souls are better.

For pvp infrastructure, FPS games are more developed and better.

For team strategy, MOBA, Battlefield, etc are better.

For grand strategy and depth, RTS.

For “build wars”, collectible card games and gw1 are better.

For broad appeal, sports/driving games.

Gw2 pvp is a Jack of all trades, but the components arent satisfactory imo.
I don’t mind if each aspect is simplified as long as it’s fun and deep. But:
- 1v1 combat is unbalanced, shallow, and not satisfying.
- Team combat is messy and too random / unstructured.
- Build creation is simultaneously bland yet unbalanced.
- PvP infrastructure is unfinished and poorly planned.
- Game mode / team objectives aren’t interesting or fun.
- The game is uninteresting to spectate.
- UI / controls are terrible and uncustomisable.

The only distinction gw2 pvp has is that it’s attached to an mmo, which is kinda meaningless for pvp. (wvw benefits a lot more from this, which is why it’s more successful)

Nearly every aspect of gw2 pvp needs either a revamp or a change of direction. There also needs to be a better central vision to glue everything together. But an mmo isn’t nimble enough to be developed this way, especially if they’re not working on an expansion pack.

So, i don’t have much hope that gw2 can evolve into an outstanding pvp game that can proudly compete against other competitive games. It will always be just a side mode to an mmo. Although there has never been an mmo with a respectable competitive mode so far, so gw2 is a noble attempt at least.

I’ve played LoL on and off with friends, and I can tell you that it is a MUCH better designed game for one simple fact:

Balance.

You want to know why Guild Wars 2 PvP is a complete joke right now? It’s because there are about 3-4 builds that are so SIGNIFICANTLY better than everything else, that it’s not worth playing anything else unless if you want to die a lot.

Furthermore, have you watched the pro games? Trying to figure out what is going on in Guild Wars 2 is nigh impossible. It’s just an incomprehensible mess and isn’t fun to watch at all. In DOTA2 and LoL you can determine what is going on easily, and there is a huge amount of strategy involved in everything. You need to anticipate your enemy’s movements, you need to be able to scout out their locations, and so many other things that you won’t really get if you only play with the idiot bots.

I will admit that GW2 PvP is fun, but it feels like the devs are just changing things for the sake of changing things like Immobilization stacking… Who was asking for that? They also nerf some abilities so hard that they are worthless, and instead of restoring them to its previous state, where it was hardly that strong to begin with, they instead try to do some really complex and convoluted way to fix it. I just don’t understand what they are doing here… Not to mention, this game barely EVER receives balance patches.

But hey, why balance or focus on PvP when you can make significantly more money in PvE by adding worthless cosmetic items to the store? It’s annoying, but from a business standpoint, I understand why PvP is hardly focused on.

lol is only better cause it has an surrender button^^

I don’t play lol, but have a lot of friends that do and the one thing that stands out to me is a kill is worth a lot to your team. Since the game is a hybrid of rts and rpg, there is a lot of strategy involved so zerging is a guaranteed loss. Granted that a kill in GW2 grants earns your team 5 points, it’s not detrimental enough in the beginning of every match so you see a lot of players charge a point against 2+ players and they usually end up dead. Overall damage is what leads to the fast paced combat of GW2 and I think it’s unhealthy. Unless you’re on TS, it’s really hard to call out incomings through team chat which explains why no one chats during matches. By the time I can type out “2 inc mid,” I’d already be engaged in a battle to even survive long enough for someone to come and help me defend the point, and that’s if my teammates had map awareness

Many players here have asked for a moba style map not because they want a moba clone, but they want more strategy to the game (myself included). I’ve tried lol and hated the playstyle with the constant clicking. GW2’s combat system is way better and if it can be implemented into a more strategic game mode, I can see myself playing it all day.

I also think the reason why hotjoins and pvp in general is in such a terrible state is because players hop in and out with no consequence other than the recent changes where you can’t get your rank/glory points if you leave. I know ppl are going to say “that’s what hotjoins are for,” but I still want to pvp with a dedicated group of players but not have to worry about ruining someone’s rating because I’m not playing hardcore. In the casual pvp realm with everyone hopping in and out, no one commits to the match. You even have players leaving so they avoid the stomp. In wow’s battlegrounds, everyone has to queue on every map and games don’t start until the rosters fill up. If you leave the battlegrounds, you get the deserter debuff for 15 minutes. That was a huge deterrent for me so even if my team was losing, I would stick it out and try to make a comeback and at least I still have my whole team (or most of them anyways) to make that happen. Way too many times I’m in 8v8 and 5 players rage quit after being down 100 points, then autobalance kicks in and you have 5v6 until more players join. By the time the game fills up again, it becomes really lopsided and more players will rage quit and so on.

tl;dr

Tone down the damage, add a real deterrent for leavers, fix the hotjoin queue system, and create more game modes so players have more variety and can CHOOSE what they want to play.

Playing other games is like playing GW2 ranger without dodge.

Downed state is the thing i hate the most in this game. Basically a pro noob system;

“u got defeated np, u still got a chance to rally up without any consequences” not to mention that ppl does way too high damage in that form.

Doing something like 1v2 is nearly impossible with all the rezzers around and completely 0 punishing the single, but better player. I don’t know any other pvp game that allows it and rewards noobs instead. Sometimes i feel that improving in this game is worthless just due to downed state as why i should bother if i get defeated when someone rez me up in 2seconds.

And before someone jump in and say downed state has strategic use; don’t go down, play better so noone has to rez u.

But overall its not bad, some balance problems like in every game.

kaikalii.4198:

Also, 6 skills, most of which have very long cooldowns, does not make for very interesting gameplay.

This is a prime example of why GW2 has failed so much since launch. Arenanet has tried balancing in the light of suggestions from people with an opinion like this. Honestly, I don’t believe you know exactly why you found the game lacking/uinteresting and then blame the lack of skills. Few skills != Complex/Advanced gameplay at all, maybe even the opposite.
I understand that an opinion is an opinion, but this is actually one of the major reasons why GW2 has failed, having short cooldowns and a lot of skills.
To the rest of your post; I have never played LoL, but I’ve played Dota 2. The principle is the same, but imo the combat/movement is not clunky at all.
GW2 sure has an awesome movement/combat core, but try Dota 2 instead, it doesn’t feel clunky at all.
Yes, I know I’m being a little harsh with this accusation, but as always I’m simply being realistic. I wanted so badly for GW2 to be successful, you have no idea, I waited years for the game.

Judging by your post, I’m going to say you are being highly biased, and are very inexperienced in LoL.

However, I can’t blame you for this.. if you enjoy GW2 spvp over other esports, go ahead. However, this doesn’t change that in reality, LoL (and other competitive esports) has a much more balanced and strategy-based game design. GW2 spvp isn’t low in popularity because its a “hidden gem” per se, but because of major class imbalances and the fact that there are too many uncontrolled variables. With balance changes only every two months, sPvP and W3 have bleak futures. AI, spamming crowd control and conditions and AoE basically sum up sPvP. Even watching the competitive tier is full of particle effects and pets with nothing really visible.

Guild Wars 1 was at least this [———————————————————————————————————————] much better.

kaikalii.4198:

So, I had never played LoL before

Different game styles.
MOBAs are in general for serious players, the gameplay is insanely deep and strategic in next to every way.
MMOs are more PvP/PvE split so more casual.
Gameplay is entirely focused on combat, MMOs don’t have the luxury of gold or lanes to give depth… they focus entirely on making walking up to and hitting someone as engaging as it can be.

Anyways…
GW2 has its percs, but like a few dozen issues that completely overshadow them.

Want a better GW2? Cast bars, unique/transparent animations and few to 0 instant casts. No one is going to watch a game if they can’t tell what’s going on. People playing that same game will get frustrated time and time again by things they can’t see or counter intelligently.

kaikalii.4198:

So, I had never played LoL before, but a friend of mine wanted me to to try it and play with him. After playing a few games, I realized…it doesn’t hold a candle to GW2 PvP. Given, I was only high level enough to fight bots, but I cannot imagine it being much better against real people. The combat is incredibly clunky compared to GW2. You can’t even use a skill until you’ve stopped moving. With the minions everywhere, I felt like I was fighting 2 or 3 MMs the entire time. Also, 6 skills, most of which have very long cooldowns, does not make for very interesting gameplay

This is one thing I keep seeing over and over on the PvP forums of this game. It is hard to compare GW2 pvp to esports pvp because GW2 is an MMO game that invites casual players in a PvE-focused game. But the reason the majority of the PvP population compares GW2 to an esports figure is because GW2 has an immense potential to achieve competitive sailing. We want this game to succeed and we have faith in its future. What some people have done is to compare GW2 pvp to GW1 pvp and the difference is remarkable. To me, GW2’s weakness compared to GW1 is that PVP is not completely balanced separately from PvE, which is necessary and crucial for the competitive component of this PvE game. However, GW2 is outstanding compared to other games in its genre. I have to say what makes GW2 stands out from other MMO games is its combat system (fluidity, casting while moving, dodge rolling, jumping, combo fields, downed system, etc…)

In my opinion, GW2 as it stands in terms of PvP is lacking in 3 major areas that have been consistently repeated since launch: combat, progression and rewards.
Combat:

• AoE
• Lacking Animations
• Spam
• Lack of skill punishment
• AI
• Class Balance

Progression

• No real competitive ranking system (both for solo and team ranking)
• Lack of a fully functional leaderboard system (flawed MMR, questionable decay, sync queuers)
• Lacking PvP achievement system (outside of PvP dailies)
• PvE/sPvP cosmetic crossover: Nothing you wear in PvP reflects the amount of hours invested in PvE

Rewards

• No rewards are actually exclusive to PvP (except rank finishers, but since they are achievable through mass farming/hot join, they are meaningless for competitive players)
• There is no incentive for casual PvE players to play PvP (no gold, Karma, XP, gems, significant achievement points)

And then there are other major issues like allowing Skyhammer to be in a ranked solo tournament rotation, the introduction of immobilize stacking and the persistence of game bugs (warrior reflect anyone?).

Once these core issues have been resolved, then we can focus on how to make GW2 pvp truly an esports figure.

tl;dr: All in all, GW2, as an MMO PvP game, is absolutely one of the best on the market but GW2 as a PvP game is kitten in its current state.