Guild Wars 2

I’m just curious what people think. I notice that high burst damage is still in the game. There have been many complains (full soldiers engineer, within 3 seconds took a 3k steal, 8k cloak and dagger, 15,800 backstab). Don’t get me wrong, I understand what you wanted to do with thieves. Create a class that does a lot of damage with crits and stealths a lot. Problem is that when a class can do 25k damage to a full tank stat setup, it leave very little wiggle room for any other builds because they can easily be killed. Just my thoughts on it.

What do you guys think? Do you think having such a high burst damage in this game (its many classes, not just thieves) balanced? Why or Why not?

Well the thing about GC’s is what damage they do to you, can pretty much be done to them. Thats why the thieves gank you to get the first hit in, otherwise they are screwed. I can see how it can be frustrating, I have had me fair share of ganks. But it is what it is just be wary and ready.

Here is the picture, people are apparently saying that “it is impossible and I’m lieing”.

RedSpectrum.1975:

Well the thing about GC’s is what damage they do to you, can pretty much be done to them. Thats why the thieves gank you to get the first hit in, otherwise they are screwed. I can see how it can be frustrating, I have had me fair share of ganks. But it is what it is just be wary and ready.

I understand that they’re squishy. I’ve seen that argument used a lot. Sadly the amount of stealths (which can be countered unless you wildly), evades, and shortbow utility makes up for their lack of stats in the tanky area. I’ve seen thieves geared like this escape zergs very easily.

Deified.7520:

Here is the picture, people are apparently saying that “it is impossible and I’m lieing”.

I main a thief so take what a say with a grain of salt. That thief dies just as fast as he kills you. In a 1v1 situation you are dead meat if he gets the jump on you no doubt. But it you can interrupt him during those 1st 2 second with something your rifle 3 or your shield block you can turn the tables pretty quick with some decent burst from your end.

Games like these are NEVER and should never be balanced around 1v1. It’s all about team based combat, you see those 2 guys in your party… stick with them. Thanks to downed states a thief will never finish you off if there is at least 1 other person with you.

Deified.7520:

RedSpectrum.1975:

Well the thing about GC’s is what damage they do to you, can pretty much be done to them. Thats why the thieves gank you to get the first hit in, otherwise they are screwed. I can see how it can be frustrating, I have had me fair share of ganks. But it is what it is just be wary and ready.

I understand that they’re squishy. I’ve seen that argument used a lot. Sadly the amount of stealths (which can be countered unless you wildly), evades, and shortbow utility makes up for their lack of stats in the tanky area. I’ve seen thieves geared like this escape zergs very easily.

Believe it or not, idk if you have a thief or not, but if they are traited for massive spike damage, they dont reap the benefits of stealth like other thieves, they just use it to get away. But yeah, when they are outnumbered they run because they mostly pop assassins signet, a venom then cloak and dagger and backstab, wasting most of thier utility on one person. I cant really give advice on how to fight them because they always try to get the first hit on you, but as an engi dont you have elixir s or something that makes you invuln? That would allow you to escape the main burst: backstab.

And Zepidel has a point, stick with a little group in WvW if you have no escape tricks. A GC thief’s main fear are other thieves actully since we burst them down as fast as they burst down everyone else. You have a thief in your party but not even just thieves, anyone can be a big help when being ganked.

RedSpectrum.1975:

Deified.7520:

RedSpectrum.1975:

Well the thing about GC’s is what damage they do to you, can pretty much be done to them. Thats why the thieves gank you to get the first hit in, otherwise they are screwed. I can see how it can be frustrating, I have had me fair share of ganks. But it is what it is just be wary and ready.

I understand that they’re squishy. I’ve seen that argument used a lot. Sadly the amount of stealths (which can be countered unless you wildly), evades, and shortbow utility makes up for their lack of stats in the tanky area. I’ve seen thieves geared like this escape zergs very easily.

Believe it or not, idk if you have a thief or not, but if they are traited for massive spike damage, they dont reap the benefits of stealth like other thieves, they just use it to get away. But yeah, when they are outnumbered they run because they mostly pop assassins signet, a venom then cloak and dagger and backstab, wasting most of thier utility on one person. I cant really give advice on how to fight them because they always try to get the first hit on you, but as an engi dont you have elixir s or something that makes you invuln? That would allow you to escape the main burst: backstab.

I have an auto elixir S skill that pops it by itself. He bursted me so down so quickly it didn’t pop. I know the internal CD on it and I know that it was off of CD.

Yea, having major burst is strong but there are alot of ways to counter it. It’s not always about stats. I rarely get ganked on my mostly zerk warrior because i’m 90% of the time aware of my surroundings and i know what they’re going to try to do to me. I’m sure guardians can do the same with their skills and retaliation. I can also slay gc thieves with my thief (very far from GC) stats are definitaly a huge factor but just plain old skill can get you further. (not saying you’re bad)

Deified.7520:

I have an auto elixir S skill that pops it by itself. He bursted me so down so quickly it didn’t pop. I know the internal CD on it and I know that it was off of CD.

Stop relying on passive play.

This is the problem, and what is being discussed is obviously a huge L2P issue.

Deified.7520:

I have an auto elixir S skill that pops it by itself. He bursted me so down so quickly it didn’t pop. I know the internal CD on it and I know that it was off of CD.

Well, that’s probably because such traits pop if you’re hit under a certain percentage of HP. Seeing that the backstab did 15k damage, you were very likely at 50% or above before… and not around 25%.

But yeah, the only thing you can do is try to react fast… after you get hit by steal or the C&D, dodge and try to get out of reach. Heal if necessary and begin fighting back. It’s not easy, but doable with some practice.

Not by a long shot. But ANet has made the combat mechanics so dependent on dodge/evade, that it is the only way they see to threaten certain profession builds.

the problem is stealth, not the damage.
GC thieves 3-shotting tanks with crits are fine. What is not fine is their ability to engage and disengage at will, making up for the weakness of glass cannons build, that every other class has to live with, by dodging, popping heals, invulns, and choosing carefully who to engage and when.

Stealth is one of those mechanics that NEEDS hard counters to work properly. Without them, it’s just a crutch for bad players, allowing them to get kills and live even after making big mistakes.

High burst damage is fine, BUT this game has kittened it up… Like hundred blades is fine, since people ca neasily move out of it. But the thing is… In this game, toughness doesnt even work. If you had full soldiers gear you should have quite high defence, and still get hit for 15k… Without armour you would probably get hit for 16k. So the toughness does barely work. Thats the problem in this game. Going full glass cannon should punish you

Deified.7520:

Here is the picture, people are apparently saying that “it is impossible and I’m lieing”.

It is impossible. That screenshot and your misspellings prove that you shouldn’t have a right to post on the forums.

Thieves in WvW can achieve 90-110% crit damage. In spvp the cap is at 62%, so most spvp thieves do not understand the capabilities of thieves in WvW.

Thieves in WvW are outright broken. You can build to have like 15-16k health and still land 7-8k backstab crits.

This thief is not so bad because he’s D/D and if you time the dodge when he’s casting cnd prior to the steal you will complicate his combo.

The real broken thieves in wvw are the D/P thieves who can permastealth reset, with condi cleanse, and still spam you with 6-7k backstabs every 5 seconds.

In spvp thieves are forced into team fights and to not abuse stealth so much due to point capping mechanics, but in WvW the brokenness of stealth and backstab is unleashed.

And screw whoever said that a thief can’t stomp if you have people around. A single black powder on top of you and they can’t do anything about a stealth stomp.

Deified.7520:

Here is the picture, people are apparently saying that “it is impossible and I’m lieing”.

Could you tell me how much toughness/what prof you are running? Then I can run the calculations for you.

I can 100% guarantee to you that doesn’t happen in sPvP, ofc WvWvW with overbuffed people and ascended gear and you were prolly poorly geared.

The overall damage of the game needs tobe toned down by a lot, the game right now its who hits his burst first, and ussually its the thieves from stealth.

A thief with a backstab in spvp will still take out 1/3 of a berserker’s necromancer health with a backstab.

The effects are not quite as extreme as wvw thieves, but the issue with thief design is that other glass cannons besides mesmer and thieves cannot exist because of them, since their spike is not survivable unless you go above 1400-1500 toughness.

Stealth pretty much allows a thief to land his burst without fear of retaliation or throwing it away. They should take out backstab and switch it for a utility skill, and switch the burst of backstab onto a non-stealth skill that you can’t use while stealthed.

You know, I love how people act like thieves just drop out of the sky.

“OMG he ambushed me, I never saw him coming! It must be that perma stealth!”

Maybe it’s just me, but in WvW, or, to some extent, sPvP, unless you’re 1. In a defended building 2. Running in a Zerg (does not equal fighting with one), or 3. So insanely bunkered that you will not take any damage at all, you need to be paranoid. Simple as that. You need to be watching the terraces for movement, and be ready to fight at any second, because that’s the difference between life and death.

As a matter of fact, you should run a GC thief in WvW. If you run into any profession unprepared and not under one of the above three categories, you’re dead. On the other hand, it allows you to get inside of the mind of the stalker.

That’s WvW……

Anyone can max/min gear and get crazy numbers.

Most I’ve ever backstabbed a Guardian in tournament play without protection on is around 2-3k…
I must be doing something wrong…

A guardian, of all targets to pick for backstab numbers lol. How many berk guardians do you see running around?

^ well…

Reikou.7068:

Deified.7520:

I have an auto elixir S skill that pops it by itself. He bursted me so down so quickly it didn’t pop. I know the internal CD on it and I know that it was off of CD.

Stop relying on passive play.

This is the problem, and what is being discussed is obviously a huge L2P issue.

lol this^ coming from the guy with “Mesmer” listed on the top of his signature.

the amount of bullkitten and hypocrisy in this thread is astounding

to the OP: for the next few days until the balance patch spec for pistols, rabid ammy, and undead runes, with elixir r and whatever kit you like. in the current meta, unless you’re playing one of the “chosen” burst classes then condis and attrition are your best option. gl

The problem with toning down burst in sPvP(even more than it already is), is that it just makes bunker/condition specs even more appealing. Without burst, everything suddenly boils down to boonstripping/conditioning down the bunkers.

Burst in sPvP is pretty balanced. In WvW it is impossible due to PvE-Gear and Zergs. So taking numbers from WvW and bring them into a sPvP-Discussion is not that accurate. BS for about 15k were possible in 2012, but not in this year. You’re lucky if you hit for 7k.

Take it from a guy who has been killed in 3-5 seconds from GC and a guy who has fought for nearly 20 minutes 1v1 against a bunker, burst is an ugly truth you need and have to accept.

As for your complaint about toughness, that is all it is supposed to do because if toughness starts mitigating more damage passively, then the active defenses (protection, blocks, projectile reflection etc) become that much more overpowered.

I would much rather have a 5-10 second intense fight GC vs GC than a drawn out 20 minute snooze fest of a bunker vs bunker.

The really problem is not how the thief is build, but the Player that uses macro.
Mesmer and Thief can make u stunned/immobilized and make also 25k of damage. But u can Evade/stun breaker, or make u invulnerable. The really problem is that if all this things happen in 500 millisecs, you cannot even understand what is just happened.
So the problem can just be solved with cast time to some skills, or the impossibility to make so many skills in a so short time.

The real problem is not the burst of some classes (which is quite high still however and should probably come down), but the fact that some classes have unavoidable burst (be it condi or power based), because the abilities used for it are instant and can be performed at any time.

Things like traits that deal potentially 4k+ damage when they proc (Incendiary Powder is just not going to trigger if you evade, but just apply on the next hit) or arcane skills and lightning strike can not be avoided realistically. You can only anticipate the latter and cleanse the former.

This adds randomness to PvP and makes dodging or smart juking much less of a factor, because there’s no animation to watch for when doing so.

Thief is fine in sPvP now that they have removed instagib against all but the most glassy targets. You have the time you need to react and counter the thief, stealth has draw backs and revealed lasts longer.

WvW is a different story. I’ve been hit for 11k heart seekers while wearing soldier’s armor/trinkets. They’re broken, but what are you going to do? Arena plays thieves.

Actually I’m fairly sure Thief is one of the only classes hardly anyone at Anet plays. I will play devil’s advocate and ask here:

What other spec should a thief run? What other setups besides burst exists?

If you say condi I will laugh, because they don’t kill anything, they just live and troll.

The only reason thieves go burst is because its one of the only things they can go.

I tried fighting a PvT Amulet thief once, sure they never died, but they did kitten poor damage and were basically ignored the whole fight.

PistolWhip.2697:

Actually I’m fairly sure Thief is one of the only classes hardly anyone at Anet plays. I will play devil’s advocate and ask here:

What other spec should a thief run? What other setups besides burst exists?

If you say condi I will laugh, because they don’t kill anything, they just live and troll.

The only reason thieves go burst is because its one of the only things they can go.

I tried fighting a PvT Amulet thief once, sure they never died, but they did kitten poor damage and were basically ignored the whole fight.

Nah, they go burst because its OP.

They go down as fast as you do. the more annoying one is the s/d evade build.

instant burst damage = bad
i.e. mind wrack = bad

kaplis.7195:

instant burst damage = bad
i.e. mind wrack = bad

Yup, cuz 3 illus running towards you is instant

And even if you ileap+mirror images, its quite obvious if you get immobilized. As soon as you let a mesmer into melee-range its your bad…

josh.7390:

kaplis.7195:

instant burst damage = bad
i.e. mind wrack = bad

Yup, cuz 3 illus running towards you is instant

And even if you ileap+mirror images, its quite obvious if you get immobilized. As soon as you let a mesmer into melee-range its your bad…

Yup, cause that is the only way mesmers shatter…. if the mesmer is close to you he can pop mirror images for instant burst damage

Why not just make engineer utility goggles give slight detect stealth passively as well as what it does now? seems balanced to me

Fenrir.5493:

PistolWhip.2697:

Actually I’m fairly sure Thief is one of the only classes hardly anyone at Anet plays. I will play devil’s advocate and ask here:

What other spec should a thief run? What other setups besides burst exists?

If you say condi I will laugh, because they don’t kill anything, they just live and troll.

The only reason thieves go burst is because its one of the only things they can go.

I tried fighting a PvT Amulet thief once, sure they never died, but they did kitten poor damage and were basically ignored the whole fight.

Nah, they go burst because its OP.

Well, then tell me another spec they can go besides burst. Go ahead.

P/D is just fine in WvW. They’ve got S/D which isn’t D/P burst in spvp. In WvW venomshare thieves are actually useful.

The only reason thieves sort of do OK in spvp is because they can’t abuse stealth in spvp team fights since they have to fight over a point.

If spvp wasn’t about fighting over a node and stealth didn’t neut, P/D would be perfectly viable if not for other D/P thieves hardcountering you.

And thieves don’t have access to 110% crit damage like in WvW+food.

I’d say high burst isn’t balanced. The main counter to it is to use a bunker build+class, which is also countered by high burst. There’s no middle to this game, so almost every decent build has to either hit some burst threshold or some bunker threshold.

Burst builds cause fights to be a game of rocket tag. Bunker builds make the game boring for most people. And I don’t understand why people want to go to WvW for 1v1 fights beyond the great divide PvP has from WvW and PvE.

Zenith.7301:

P/D is just fine in WvW. They’ve got S/D which isn’t D/P burst in spvp. In WvW venomshare thieves are actually useful.

The only reason thieves sort of do OK in spvp is because they can’t abuse stealth in spvp team fights since they have to fight over a point.

If spvp wasn’t about fighting over a node and stealth didn’t neut, P/D would be perfectly viable if not for other D/P thieves hardcountering you.

And thieves don’t have access to 110% crit damage like in WvW+food.

P/D doesn’t kill anyone with half a brain lol, I remember running into two P/D thieves, they chased me for literally 30 mins around the map on my WARRIOR, and didn’t manage to down me. They are annoying thats all.

S/D is still bursty, I know its far more sustained in style than D/P but that doesn’t change the fact that the optimum setup for it is berserker’s. Venom share is fairly useless actually, it is highly specialized but unless your whole team is built around it it isn’t too effective, but I have heard your view from others too, I’m guessing that certain setup all falls to personal preference.

Lets face it, if berserker didn’t exist in the game, thieves would be annoying and that’s all. I think we all forget that when looking at them from other classes PoV. Trust me, I know the feeling, being a warrior and having to fight thieves who sit in their potent Black Powder blind field is annoying as heck.

I think GW2 has a scaling problem. Yes, it is nice for damage calculations that everything scales directly with power (+10% power = +10% damage), but the downside is, that skills with high base damage automatically have high skill coeffictients (damage per point in power).

Currently, damage is calculated by:
skill coefficient * weapon strength * power * crit modifiers

Most other MMOs/MOBAs use a formula with a separated base damage and skill coefficient:
(base damage + skill coefficient * weapon strength * power) * crit modifiers
or
(base damage * weapon strength + skill coefficient * power) * crit modifiers.

With the new formulas, the scaling will be flatter: the damage will not double if double power. This brings direct damage in line with condition damage (which also have the form base + coeff * condition damage) and defensive attributes (doubling toughness does not halve the damage, because there is a base armor, healing is also calculated by base + coeff * healing power)

Another problem is that there are three attributes which increase direct damage AND stack multiplicatively AND are available as a 3-stat combination.

Prediction: The burst situation in WvW will get worse with every ascended item ANet introduces.

Edit: Forgot to say that I bolded the variables for a reason: With the new formulas, each skill gets two variables to balance instead of only one. It is possible to town down the scaling and leave the base damage unaffected.

Demon.5082:

Take it from a guy who has been killed in 3-5 seconds from GC and a guy who has fought for nearly 20 minutes 1v1 against a bunker, burst is an ugly truth you need and have to accept.

As for your complaint about toughness, that is all it is supposed to do because if toughness starts mitigating more damage passively, then the active defenses (protection, blocks, projectile reflection etc) become that much more overpowered.

I would much rather have a 5-10 second intense fight GC vs GC than a drawn out 20 minute snooze fest of a bunker vs bunker.

What if Arenanet chose to lower burst and lower sustain so that there would be no immortal bunkers on top of that? Then, theoretically, with changes to this – would it not seem as though condition had more room to live and breathe in this game?

I’m going to go ahead and insert this here, now. My vote is “No”, burst is way too high and does not feel balanced at all. In fact, it feels rather boring. I don’t get excited trying to outplay someone when it feels like fights are such a short duration.

Also read a some good points in here, such as traits like incendiary powder. It won’t proc / be wasted on evasion. Which doesn’t promote smart juking / wisely chosen dodges. In fact, dodges / evades feel … very close to spam at this point. I mean take a look at a thief using 2x S/D for endurance on swap sigils + evasive attacks built in, then factor in feline grace & vigor. Evasive spam central … HOW is that fun to fight against? Maybe “fun to play” but really, does spam that seems to be anti-skill seriously deserve to be even remotely rewarding? -.-

Aegis.9724:

the problem is stealth, not the damage.
GC thieves 3-shotting tanks with crits are fine. What is not fine is their ability to engage and disengage at will, making up for the weakness of glass cannons build, that every other class has to live with, by dodging, popping heals, invulns, and choosing carefully who to engage and when.

Stealth is one of those mechanics that NEEDS hard counters to work properly. Without them, it’s just a crutch for bad players, allowing them to get kills and live even after making big mistakes.

500x that. There are way too many crutches making mediocre thieves and mesmers look like pros.