Guild Wars 2

One of my biggest pet peeves in any pvp game is where you are punished for attacking. I’ve never liked it all, not one bit. I’m all for skill based pvp and coordinated efforts to take people down but…. yah I’ve never liked it when someone bubbles up and you literally have to go ‘wait it out’ and not attack.

Overwatch has that stupid mechanic with Zarya where she bubbles herself and her allies, and you’re punished for attacking during that time. Firstly they take no damage, and secondly it boosts her damage.

SWTOR has bubble reflects on Mercenaries that damage you every time you attack them.

This game… has retaliation.

So I’m like OK great, fine, whatever. But I’ve killed myself from 13k health to 0 in under 3 seconds just from someone having retaliation. Isn’t that a bit much? Isn’t that a bit over the top?

Shouldn’t we put a cap on how much damage retaliation can return? Say something like max 1k damage returned per 1 second duration? So if retaliation has a 5 second duration and returns 5k damage, the buff wears off. Something to that effect.

I dunno I feel it’s broken enough to post about it, am I the only one feeling this way?

ooo

what did you do to have 13k hp gone just because you atk one single person?
i dun believe retaliation can hit up to 13k just because you hit a single person

Captain Obvious.6951:

One of my biggest pet peeves in any pvp game is where you are punished for attacking. I’ve never liked it all, not one bit. I’m all for skill based pvp and coordinated efforts to take people down but…. yah I’ve never liked it when someone bubbles up and you literally have to go ‘wait it out’ and not attack.

Overwatch has that stupid mechanic with Zarya where she bubbles herself and her allies, and you’re punished for attacking during that time. Firstly they take no damage, and secondly it boosts her damage.

SWTOR has bubble reflects on Mercenaries that damage you every time you attack them.

This game… has retaliation.

So I’m like OK great, fine, whatever. But I’ve killed myself from 13k health to 0 in under 3 seconds just from someone having retaliation. Isn’t that a bit much? Isn’t that a bit over the top?

Shouldn’t we put a cap on how much damage retaliation can return? Say something like max 1k damage returned per 1 second duration? So if retaliation has a 5 second duration and returns 5k damage, the buff wears off. Something to that effect.

I dunno I feel it’s broken enough to post about it, am I the only one feeling this way?

I don’t feel retaliation is a big issue, I wish even it gets improved retaliation should also apply when I block a attack

Retaliation is too strong in PvP/WvW, and too weak in PvE.

They should make it so that Retaliation only affects melee attacks, and increase its damage a bit. Something like 1s internal cooldown is also good.

Sunshine.5014:

Retaliation is too strong in PvP/WvW, and too weak in PvE.

They should make it so that Retaliation only affects melee attacks, and increase its damage a bit. Something like 1s internal cooldown is also good.

PVE:At level 80, retaliation deals damage according to this formula:
200 + (0.075 * Power)

In PvP and WvW, retaliation damage is reduced by 33.33% and calculated with this formula:

133 + (0.05 * Power)

Captain Obvious.6951:

One of my biggest pet peeves in any pvp game is where you are punished for attacking. I’ve never liked it all, not one bit. I’m all for skill based pvp and coordinated efforts to take people down but…. yah I’ve never liked it when someone bubbles up and you literally have to go ‘wait it out’ and not attack.

Overwatch has that stupid mechanic with Zarya where she bubbles herself and her allies, and you’re punished for attacking during that time. Firstly they take no damage, and secondly it boosts her damage.

SWTOR has bubble reflects on Mercenaries that damage you every time you attack them.

This game… has retaliation.

So I’m like OK great, fine, whatever. But I’ve killed myself from 13k health to 0 in under 3 seconds just from someone having retaliation. Isn’t that a bit much? Isn’t that a bit over the top?

Shouldn’t we put a cap on how much damage retaliation can return? Say something like max 1k damage returned per 1 second duration? So if retaliation has a 5 second duration and returns 5k damage, the buff wears off. Something to that effect.

I dunno I feel it’s broken enough to post about it, am I the only one feeling this way?

Yes. All this games have mechanics which promote reactive combat.

You’re supposed to boon strip Retaliation off your target. The problem in PvE is that not every class can boon strip, and the mobs only have three moves, so odds are unless it’s a normal or Vet, the boon will just go back up after a short time. If your boon strip is on CD, or you don’t have any, yeah, waiting it out is not a lot of fun.

In PvP, not really. It might be a problem if you’re attacking with a multi-hit skill into a big fight where all your enemies have it, but this isn’t that common in wvw. Usually you can only hit 1-2 targets at a time.

In WvW, yes, absolutely. Eg. On my grenade build engi, I’ll throw Grenade Barrage (6 aoe hits) into a zerg. That’s 30 hits of retal damage if I hit 5 players with each. I can only attack 2-3 times before I have to break and heal because I’m at half health from retaliation.

Robban.1256:

Sunshine.5014:

Retaliation is too strong in PvP/WvW, and too weak in PvE.

They should make it so that Retaliation only affects melee attacks, and increase its damage a bit. Something like 1s internal cooldown is also good.

PVE:At level 80, retaliation deals damage according to this formula:
200 + (0.075 * Power)

In PvP and WvW, retaliation damage is reduced by 33.33% and calculated with this formula:

133 + (0.05 * Power)

Right, for PvE, you mob hits you once every 3 seconds. Good luck getting hit twice before the book wears off. And even then, it deals 350 damage.

For WvW, one Meteor Shower on a Zerg with retaliation can get you down even after you use your heal skill.

They need to increase retaliation damage in PvE and add a 1s cool down to PvP/WvW.

What possible moves could do 13k damage to the user in 1 sec against 1 target? You’d have to have proc that target nearly 30 times in an instant!

How much can retal do per tic? I don’t think it goes that much higher than 400, right?

Captain Obvious.6951:

So I’m like OK great, fine, whatever. But I’ve killed myself from 13k health to 0 in under 3 seconds just from someone having retaliation. Isn’t that a bit much? Isn’t that a bit over the top?

Assuming spvp, this means you hit your target 52 times before noticing.

This assuming your target has Marader’s and a power rune, so the equation is (133+(0.05*2,355))/13,000=52.

Stop being bad please.

Robban.1256:

Sunshine.5014:

Retaliation is too strong in PvP/WvW, and too weak in PvE.

They should make it so that Retaliation only affects melee attacks, and increase its damage a bit. Something like 1s internal cooldown is also good.

PVE:At level 80, retaliation deals damage according to this formula:
200 + (0.075 * Power)

In PvP and WvW, retaliation damage is reduced by 33.33% and calculated with this formula:

133 + (0.05 * Power)

K so 133 + (.05*2000 = 100) = 233 per hit

Unload 8 = hits, 1.5 seconds

8×233 = 1864 damage

3 unloads = 5,592 damage, in 4.5 seconds. That’s absolutely ridiculous damage for doing absolutely nothing.

Someone also mentioned that in PvE it’s not going to be near as strong, or against general targets that don’t you you very often but hit really hard.

SO what my suggestion was, to maybe like increase the duration of retaliation but MAX the damage return on it.

So if you buff yourself with retaliation, and it lasts say 8 seconds… if you take 8 hits you do 8 return ticks of damage. If it lasts 8 seconds and you don’t take any hits for 4 seconds, then take 4 hits, it returns 4 hits of damage.

Something like that to make it more useuable in any situation, and more fair against players who hit a lot of times vs ones that don’t.

Or possibly even better yet just make it return a flat % of damage. Like 15% returned damage or something. Then it doesn’t matter if people hit you fast, or slow, if they deal 10k damage to you over 1 hit or 8 hits, it returns 1500 dmg.

Retaliation is a two way thing. If you can’t deal enough damage to nearly down the player with 3 unloads, then its time to change strategy…

I have nothing against unload, but its a range attack that can ramp up a lot of damage if you land it. And provided that you get retaliation it means they actually landed.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Retaliation is a two way thing. If you can’t deal enough damage to nearly down the player with 3 unloads, then its time to change strategy…

I have nothing against unload, but its a range attack that can ramp up a lot of damage if you land it. And provided that you get retaliation it means they actually landed.

First, you’re changing the subject. We’re not here to talk about how much damage you can deal with unload. Besides I’ve dealt over 48k damage with unload to one Guardian and NOT EVEN DOWNED HIM.

Second, I find it completely absurd that someone can deal 12k damage back to you with 6 unloads on them, without them even pressing a single button or doing anything. Just standing still doing absolutely nothing.

So if you don’t find that a bit over the top stupid strong I don’t know what else I can say.

Captain Obvious.6951:

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Retaliation is a two way thing. If you can’t deal enough damage to nearly down the player with 3 unloads, then its time to change strategy…

I have nothing against unload, but its a range attack that can ramp up a lot of damage if you land it. And provided that you get retaliation it means they actually landed.

First, you’re changing the subject. We’re not here to talk about how much damage you can deal with unload. Besides I’ve dealt over 48k damage with unload to one Guardian and NOT EVEN DOWNED HIM.

Second, I find it completely absurd that someone can deal 12k damage back to you with 6 unloads on them, without them even pressing a single button or doing anything. Just standing still doing absolutely nothing.

So if you don’t find that a bit over the top stupid strong I don’t know what else I can say.

I honestly dont think its stupid strong. Just use a harder hitting move that doesnt hit 8x in quick succession and suddenly that amount of damage is cut to a fraction.

Its simple. If you can down players with your damage there’s no reason to worry about retaliation.

Retaliation at best can do 250 per hit and quite frankly even auto-attack can top that. Most class have around 13-20k health so I don’t see how you can’t kill them when landed 6 unloads. We can talk about other skills if you want, but the result will always be that the damage you inflicted is more than the damage you receive from retaliation.

Regarding your “without doing anything” theory…only guard has reliable access to retaliation, maybe even engi if his lucky with condition conversion. Guard has more block than retaliation so you should be worry about things other than killing yourself. And rarely rev traits for retribution nowadays.

Back before ANet completely broke that trait, I tried retaliation build on guard when you can convert it to scale with condi. You get 350 per hit and I still hardly find anyone clueless enough to be killed by it. If you really want to talk about when retaliation was OP, that’s 4 years ago with Pyro’s Immortal Mesmer build. Back then retaliation from iDefender will proc when mesmer take damage, and both mes and iDefender has retaliation. This allows opponent to take 2 procs per hit on mesmer (roughly 550 per hit). That build was butchered soon after and leave a bunch of useless traits for mesmer.

48k without downing them? Any guards want to jump out and correct that? *facepalm

You’re full of kitten that you went from 13k-0 in 3 seconds just from retaliation damage.

Retal is a counter to fast attacking players so if you’re getting off 6 unloads then expect some counter play.

It should only trigger once per second. It is magnified against multi hitting skills. Thief cant even use a DD trait because they take 200×3 damage for up to three clones it hits. Vs mesmer clone retaliation a player can cause quick suicide.

Retaliation isn’t a problem 1v1, it’s when you’re striking 4 or 5 targets at once, who all have retaliation. Then we’re talking a large return of damage. Though that situation is rare and I don’t really see a problem with retaliation.

Now let’s talk about the confusion condition. It only takes 1 person to stack large confusion condi and this situation occurs much more frequently than many targets having retaliation. All it takes is one multiple striking AoE cleave in the middle of a small node team fight and a player can deal enough damage to themselves to get downed twice over. Confusion in my opinion is very exploitable but not many seem smart enough to figure it out.

Captain Obvious.6951:

So I’m like OK great, fine, whatever. But I’ve killed myself from 13k health to 0 in under 3 seconds just from someone having retaliation. Isn’t that a bit much? Isn’t that a bit over the top?

No way Retaliation can deal that much dmg under 3 seconds. I am sure there was a REFLECTIVE PROJECTILES thing in the air which killed you
Retaliation dmg is super low on my Guardian: If you hit me for lets say 2k dmg, Retaliation hits you for maybe 250 or 300 in return or even less?

Still waiting for some solid retalliation sources for necro – you know that one profession that’s supposed to get hit by design…

13k dmg under 3 sec

retal hit in pvp about 240 per hit
which means 54 hits
which means 18 hits per sec

what the hell you use to do 18 hits per sec?

unload is 8 in 1.75 sec which means 4.5 per sec.

so i think you mistaken and probably you also took direct dmg

in fact retal dmg should be higher in pvp like pve. the classes which have access to retal are guard, rev (retribution), bit warrior, bit mesmer,

messiah.1908:

13k dmg under 3 sec

retal hit in pvp about 240 per hit
which means 54 hits
which means 18 hits per sec

what the hell you use to do 18 hits per sec?

unload is 8 in 1.75 sec which means 4.5 per sec.

so i think you mistaken and probably you also took direct dmg

in fact retal dmg should be higher in pvp like pve. the classes which have access to retal are guard, rev (retribution), bit warrior, bit mesmer,

I am pretty sure, he has been a victim of Reflect (projectile reflection), there is no other explanation. Reflect is the main killer to unload thieves.

This is how Retaliation should works:

1) Slowly increase damage over time as long as the boon is still on. Each second gain ~200 damage. To a cap of 2000 damage.
2) When you get hit, deal that damage to the attacker, and reset the “stored” damage to 0

Pros:

• PvE: you can store a good amount of damage (2000) in case you get hit once by a mob. There is no pressure to shove your face out and get hit constantly to maximize Retaliation
• PvP/WvW: group Retaliation is not too strong anymore since the damage resets.

Best of both world. Numbers can be tweaked as needed.

this has to either be a troll post or someone that has absolutely no clue about the game mechanics.

Blocking burn guardian will do way more damage with burn, a Mesmer dumping confusion will do way more damage, anyone with reflect will do way more damage.

Captain Obvious.6951:

Robban.1256:

Sunshine.5014:

Retaliation is too strong in PvP/WvW, and too weak in PvE.

They should make it so that Retaliation only affects melee attacks, and increase its damage a bit. Something like 1s internal cooldown is also good.

PVE:At level 80, retaliation deals damage according to this formula:
200 + (0.075 * Power)

In PvP and WvW, retaliation damage is reduced by 33.33% and calculated with this formula:

133 + (0.05 * Power)

K so 133 + (.05*2000 = 100) = 233 per hit

Unload 8 = hits, 1.5 seconds

8×233 = 1864 damage

3 unloads = 5,592 damage, in 4.5 seconds. That’s absolutely ridiculous damage for doing absolutely nothing.

Sure, doing nothing for high profit is always annoying but Retal isn’t one of those things. It kills nothing but bad glassy thieves. All you have to do is attack once, notice you’re taking damage, then stop attacking. Does stowing your weapon not cancel the ability? Doesn’t matter, read Boons on a target and notice whether or not they have Retal up.

Know what’s more annoying than Retal? A thief unloading with pistols from range and asking to have less counters.

I +1 the sentiment that asks how you take 13k retal… and Guards with 40k hp… I…

No, we’re talking about some other game. Right? We have to be. Either that or there’s some traits I don’t know about that a;sp cause damage on hit. OR the OP is mistaking confusion for Retaliation. Hard to mistake if you have condition floaters enabled, but I can definitely see a (particularly nasty) confusion burst potentially doing something like that… paired with other conditions… … But this is basically just Mesmer territory, not guardian.

The only times I’ve ever been wrecked by Retaliation are against various PvE bosses. I almost never notice Retal in PvP; it’s one of the boons I am least afraid of. Fury, 15+ Might, Protection, Aegis? Concerning. Retaliation? pffffffffffft.

Jesus, guys! Can’t you see he’s just mistaken Retaliation with Reflection?

Sifu.9745:

Jesus, guys! Can’t you see he’s just mistaken Retaliation with Reflection?

So we’re all on the same page, I took a screenshot.

http://imgur.com/a/aJqWc

Unload attacks 8 hits in 1.5 seconds.

With quickness on, that’s 50% faster, .75 seconds.

8 hits x 247 = 1,976 damage retaliated in .75 seconds

6 unloads in 4.5 seconds, 6×1976 = 11,856 damage returned in 4.5 seconds.

So I was exaggerating just a little bit.

First I only have about 11k health in PvP.

Second, it takes 4.5 seconds to kill myself when someone has retaliation on, not 3 seconds.

I mean kitten me all to hell right? It wasn’t 3 seconds, it was 4.5 seconds. GOD FORBID I was off by 1.5 seconds.

So the fact still remains. Do you really think it’s fair that someone sitting still DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, JUST SITTING THERE, can return 11,856 damage back to their attacker with JUST retaliation on?

Personally, and maybe I’m just flippin crazy here, I think that’s an absolute joke.

This is why I said………. the skill needs some kind of damage return cap or something on it. But at the same time maybe balance the skill out so it’s better against slow attacking players and monsters too.

Thus why I suggested maybe the skill should just return 15% of damage, to a max of like 2k or 3k damage or something to that effect. Or make it so it does something like remove 1s of duration for every 1k damage returned. Just something other than the guy standing still getting healed and healing himself, returning almost 12,000 damage back to one player… that’s not even counting any hits from other players.

maybe it’s time to evolve your gameplay beyond pressing 3?

or don’t, because this is seriously funny

Captain Obvious.6951:

Sifu.9745:

Jesus, guys! Can’t you see he’s just mistaken Retaliation with Reflection?

So we’re all on the same page, I took a screenshot.

http://imgur.com/a/aJqWc

Unload attacks 8 hits in 1.5 seconds.

With quickness on, that’s 50% faster, .75 seconds.

8 hits x 247 = 1,976 damage retaliated in .75 seconds

6 unloads in 4.5 seconds, 6×1976 = 11,856 damage returned in 4.5 seconds.

So I was exaggerating just a little bit.

First I only have about 11k health in PvP.

Second, it takes 4.5 seconds to kill myself when someone has retaliation on, not 3 seconds.

I mean kitten me all to hell right? It wasn’t 3 seconds, it was 4.5 seconds. GOD FORBID I was off by 1.5 seconds.

So the fact still remains. Do you really think it’s fair that someone sitting still DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, JUST SITTING THERE, can return 11,856 damage back to their attacker with JUST retaliation on?

Personally, and maybe I’m just flippin crazy here, I think that’s an absolute joke.

This is why I said………. the skill needs some kind of damage return cap or something on it. But at the same time maybe balance the skill out so it’s better against slow attacking players and monsters too.

Thus why I suggested maybe the skill should just return 15% of damage, to a max of like 2k or 3k damage or something to that effect. Or make it so it does something like remove 1s of duration for every 1k damage returned. Just something other than the guy standing still getting healed and healing himself, returning almost 12,000 damage back to one player… that’s not even counting any hits from other players.

do you really think that someone press 3 will do about 29k dmg in 4.5 sec?

Captain Obvious.6951:

6 unloads in 4.5 seconds

I agree with a couple people above me – pressing 3 a whole bunch may be a demonstration of just about the least amount of skill imaginable.

You want to stay on topic? Alright – no, I don’t think retaliation needs to be scaled down/nerfed. Why? Because Retaliation here is doing exactly what it should be doing – that is, it’s punishing spammy gameplay, and is an active, direct counter to the specific kind of move that lasts longer than a dodge roll.

You used Unload 6 times, so let’s break down the poor choices(before we even touch on pistol/pistol being a really terrible weapon set):

-The enemy has Retaliation.
-You fired off Unload #1. Mistake 1, as you shouldn’t have done this knowing the damage at stake. (IF Retaliation was put up reactively, I can let this slide.)
-Seeing the retaliation damage, you did not choose to break the skill or disengage, so you took full Retaliation damage. Mistake 2.
-The enemy still has Retaliation.
-You fired off Unload #2. Mistake 3, as by now you should have been VERY aware Retaliation was in play.
-Repeat 4 more times for a total of 12 mistakes.

The fact that this game has dodge rolls should tip you off that this is a reaction-based game, and that doesn’t just hold true for incoming attacks. If your outgoing attacks are a poor choice, the onus is on you to cancel them or have a contingency.

Here’s what I suggest, even though you’re keen to ignore advice in this thread:
1. Have Stow Weapon on a convenient hotkey. If you’re using WASD like I do, I find Z to be sufficient. If retaliation goes up during your burst, you want to hit Stow Weapon and disengage(get away) from the enemy asap, especially if you’re running zerk – which you are, since you have no HP.
2. Consider marauder or even valkyrie(assuming these are both still in pvp, i haven’t looked lately) amulet until you have the basic skill necessary to actually deal with Retaliation. If you think that they’re bad because they’re not meta, then consider that the meta doesn’t have problems with retaliation.
3. If you must use pistol/pistol, worry less about how much damage you can do in 4.5 seconds, and instead focus on how to bait the enemy’s defensive cooldowns out. As a thief – no matter what weapon – initiative is practically your blood. Run out of initiative and you will be missing a lot of your survivability.
4. And even still, consider the area around you. Sometimes it’s enough to simply bring an enemy down to half health and force them to disengage in order to swing a teamfight. If the enemy is smart, they’ll realize that if they’re at half health and you stop spamming, then your initiative is building back up for the next volley. This may get them to LoS you, but there’s only a few classes that can continue to pressure you from safety(mesmers and rangers come to mind).

And finally,

5. Don’t use pistol/pistol. As demonstrated, it’s comically easy to counter, between retaliation, reflects, line of sight, long blocks, invulnerability…

PvP is not a dps race. Sometimes the best weapon is a little slower.

Captain Obvious.6951:

Sifu.9745:

Jesus, guys! Can’t you see he’s just mistaken Retaliation with Reflection?

So we’re all on the same page, I took a screenshot.

http://imgur.com/a/aJqWc

Unload attacks 8 hits in 1.5 seconds.

With quickness on, that’s 50% faster, .75 seconds.

8 hits x 247 = 1,976 damage retaliated in .75 seconds

6 unloads in 4.5 seconds, 6×1976 = 11,856 damage returned in 4.5 seconds.

So I was exaggerating just a little bit.

First I only have about 11k health in PvP.

Second, it takes 4.5 seconds to kill myself when someone has retaliation on, not 3 seconds.

I mean kitten me all to hell right? It wasn’t 3 seconds, it was 4.5 seconds. GOD FORBID I was off by 1.5 seconds.

So the fact still remains. Do you really think it’s fair that someone sitting still DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, JUST SITTING THERE, can return 11,856 damage back to their attacker with JUST retaliation on?

Personally, and maybe I’m just flippin crazy here, I think that’s an absolute joke.

This is why I said………. the skill needs some kind of damage return cap or something on it. But at the same time maybe balance the skill out so it’s better against slow attacking players and monsters too.

Thus why I suggested maybe the skill should just return 15% of damage, to a max of like 2k or 3k damage or something to that effect. Or make it so it does something like remove 1s of duration for every 1k damage returned. Just something other than the guy standing still getting healed and healing himself, returning almost 12,000 damage back to one player… that’s not even counting any hits from other players.

I see nothing wrong with punishing people that blindly spam skills. Next people are going to complain that they can’t be bothered to check to see if someone has stab before they use their knockdowns.

Retaliation is OP against rapid hitting attacks and weak against big ones.

They just need to remove the proc per hit and make it hit back for a % of damage intake, while reducing its duration and availability.

Kadj.6725:

Captain Obvious.6951:

6 unloads in 4.5 seconds

I agree with a couple people above me – pressing 3 a whole bunch may be a demonstration of just about the least amount of skill imaginable.

You want to stay on topic? Alright – no, I don’t think retaliation needs to be scaled down/nerfed. Why? Because Retaliation here is doing exactly what it should be doing – that is, it’s punishing spammy gameplay, and is an active, direct counter to the specific kind of move that lasts longer than a dodge roll.

First, the thief doesn’t play like other characters in this game. He has energy instead of cooldowns. So while spamming one button may take less skill than having to hit 2 or 3 buttons like an Engi, it’s how the class was designed. Don’t fault me for playing a character as it was designed to be played.

Second, I’ve already attempted to strip boons from the target. I don’t always get the retaliation boon especially when people have a ton of boons up. I’ve also come up against people who are literally ticking like 5-10 seconds of retaliation.

So once again I’m back to my point of not liking skills in a PvP game that force me to not attack. What am I supposed to do… run off for 5-10 seconds and ‘wait it out’? Do you realize how dumb that sounds? 5-10 seconds of not being able to attack someone can be the difference in living or dying, winning and losing a fight or a pvp match.

Retaliation is punishing fast attacking heroes, but is all but useless against slow hard hitting ones. Do you realize how dumb THAT sounds?

This is why I was suggesting maybe to make it a more well rounded skill, to deal more damage to slow hitters, less damage to fast hitters, and put a damage cap on the returned damage cause I still find it utterly completely stupid that one boon can return enough damage to kill an entire health bar of a player.

Kadj.6725:

The fact that this game has dodge rolls should tip you off that this is a reaction-based game, and that doesn’t just hold true for incoming attacks. If your outgoing attacks are a poor choice, the onus is on you to cancel them or have a contingency.

You see I’m all for skill based twitch combat which is one of the things I enjoy about the PvP in this game.

If someone is attacking you, you can dodge, block, bubble, shield, go invulnerable, I mean so many options to attempt quick counterplay to what people are doing. And of all these options all of them only last a couple of seconds, and none of them can even come close to doing an entire life bar of damage back to the enemy player.

But putting a boon on and standing still while the enemy kills them self isn’t reactionary at all. In fact it’s just the opposite of that. It’s not reactionary at all. You just press a button, get a boon on, and now what… a player is forced to run off and ‘wait it out’? I mean cmon listen to yourself.

Unload was just one example of how much damage retaliation was returning. I’ve also nearly killed myself using a short bow. Firing off auto attacks into a crowd on a point and using skill 2 to drop cluster bombs into the crowd I’ve almost killed myself doing that as well.

So once again this isn’t just a pistol/unload skill problem as I have seen it.

Again what am I supposed to do against some bunker guardians and engi’s with retaliation on? GO RUN AWAY AND WAIT IT OUT? Letting them control the point and win the game? That isn’t reactionary game play at all.

Enemy team has retaliation on.

Run away and let them win.

Reactionary gameplay ftw

Captain Obvious.6951:

Again what am I supposed to do against some bunker guardians and engi’s with retaliation on? GO RUN AWAY AND WAIT IT OUT? Letting them control the point and win the game? That isn’t reactionary game play at all.

Enemy team has retaliation on.

Run away and let them win.

Reactionary gameplay ftw

Yes, go somewhere else to +1 or decap like a thief. You’re fallen into the bunker’s trap of wasting your time. You might as well call projectile denial OP at this point.

Captain Obvious.6951:

Sifu.9745:

Jesus, guys! Can’t you see he’s just mistaken Retaliation with Reflection?

So we’re all on the same page, I took a screenshot.

http://imgur.com/a/aJqWc

Unload attacks 8 hits in 1.5 seconds.

With quickness on, that’s 50% faster, .75 seconds.

8 hits x 247 = 1,976 damage retaliated in .75 seconds

6 unloads in 4.5 seconds, 6×1976 = 11,856 damage returned in 4.5 seconds.

So I was exaggerating just a little bit.

First I only have about 11k health in PvP.

Second, it takes 4.5 seconds to kill myself when someone has retaliation on, not 3 seconds.

I mean kitten me all to hell right? It wasn’t 3 seconds, it was 4.5 seconds. GOD FORBID I was off by 1.5 seconds.

So the fact still remains. Do you really think it’s fair that someone sitting still DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, JUST SITTING THERE, can return 11,856 damage back to their attacker with JUST retaliation on?

Personally, and maybe I’m just flippin crazy here, I think that’s an absolute joke.

This is why I said………. the skill needs some kind of damage return cap or something on it. But at the same time maybe balance the skill out so it’s better against slow attacking players and monsters too.

Thus why I suggested maybe the skill should just return 15% of damage, to a max of like 2k or 3k damage or something to that effect. Or make it so it does something like remove 1s of duration for every 1k damage returned. Just something other than the guy standing still getting healed and healing himself, returning almost 12,000 damage back to one player… that’s not even counting any hits from other players.

Considering the ranged and mobility disadvantage a Guardian has vs a Thief, and that he popped retaliation just as you were using a boat load of Unloads, I’d say the Guardian required more skill here to put you down. He likely waited for you to feel safe using Unload, healed it back, maybe even tried reflecting it and when you though, “he burned his reflect, time to unload”, he countered.

Leo G.4501:

Considering the ranged and mobility disadvantage a Guardian has

This is a joke right?

Guardians have bows, 900 ranged burning attacks, teleports, pulls and leaps.

Are you trying to tell me the Thief ability to spam shortbow 5 a few times and run away is a good counter to a Guardian? LOL!

Guardian has retaliation on, Thief counter…. RUN AWAY! Let them control the point and win the game! WOOHOO! What a great counter! LOL!!!

Captain Obvious.6951:

Kadj.6725:

Captain Obvious.6951:

6 unloads in 4.5 seconds

I agree with a couple people above me – pressing 3 a whole bunch may be a demonstration of just about the least amount of skill imaginable.

You want to stay on topic? Alright – no, I don’t think retaliation needs to be scaled down/nerfed. Why? Because Retaliation here is doing exactly what it should be doing – that is, it’s punishing spammy gameplay, and is an active, direct counter to the specific kind of move that lasts longer than a dodge roll.

First, the thief doesn’t play like other characters in this game. He has energy instead of cooldowns. So while spamming one button may take less skill than having to hit 2 or 3 buttons like an Engi, it’s how the class was designed. Don’t fault me for playing a character as it was designed to be played.

Second, I’ve already attempted to strip boons from the target. I don’t always get the retaliation boon especially when people have a ton of boons up. I’ve also come up against people who are literally ticking like 5-10 seconds of retaliation.

So once again I’m back to my point of not liking skills in a PvP game that force me to not attack. What am I supposed to do… run off for 5-10 seconds and ‘wait it out’? Do you realize how dumb that sounds? 5-10 seconds of not being able to attack someone can be the difference in living or dying, winning and losing a fight or a pvp match.

Retaliation is punishing fast attacking heroes, but is all but useless against slow hard hitting ones. Do you realize how dumb THAT sounds?

This is why I was suggesting maybe to make it a more well rounded skill, to deal more damage to slow hitters, less damage to fast hitters, and put a damage cap on the returned damage cause I still find it utterly completely stupid that one boon can return enough damage to kill an entire health bar of a player.

Thief doesn’t have fewer consecutive but harder hitting skills? They don’t have to be “slow” to be considered harder hitting.

Or is Thief just the flurry hit profession and I just didn’t realize it. If so, wait for Deadeye.

Captain Obvious.6951:

Leo G.4501:

Considering the ranged and mobility disadvantage a Guardian has

This is a joke right?

Good job taking words out of context tho.

I said “range and mobility disadvantage a Guardian has vs a Thief”.

Are you saying Guardian can do more damage at range with a Longbow than a Thief and has equal or better mobility?

ZoroDaOtter.3859:

Captain Obvious.6951:

Again what am I supposed to do against some bunker guardians and engi’s with retaliation on? GO RUN AWAY AND WAIT IT OUT? Letting them control the point and win the game? That isn’t reactionary game play at all.

Enemy team has retaliation on.

Run away and let them win.

Reactionary gameplay ftw

Yes, go somewhere else to +1 or decap like a thief. You’re fallen into the bunker’s trap of wasting your time. You might as well call projectile denial OP at this point.

I didn’t say projectile denial is OP. Although it does feel like this game is very heavily anti ranged. But when a Guardian pops his projectile bubble I don’t cry about it. You deal with it and if you’re smart plan on it coming out.

Many classes even have projectile reflects. I don’t cry about that either. First it only lasts a few seconds. Second I can just stop attacking. Often times when I know someone has reflects, I will just walk up to them feigning as if I’m going to unload and watch them pop their reflects and I just stand there doing nothing. It’s pretty funny watching them waste it.

So no, I’m not complaining at all about projectile denial, or even projectile reflects. All of these skills require you the enemy player to actively counter you, AND there’s something I can do in return to counter it. These skills and counters are also very short lived. Seems balanced and OK to me.

What does NOT seem balanced is someone who just sits there standing still, who has a boon on that I’ve seen with 10 second durations, and can deal an entire health bare of returned damage from ONE boon. This requires NO skill. This requires NO active play. And short of having one skill that strips boons, there’s NOTHING I can do about it and that skill might not even strip the retaliation boon.

I guess I should be more clear in saying that when players are actively countering projectiles with bubbles or reflects, they can’t do anything else. And that’s the balanced part of those situations.

With retaliation on they can be doing other things… more importantly they can keep attacking you while it’s on. And that’s the real BS part of this whole situation. I get punished for attacking them, my only option is to pray to god I strip the boon, don’t get killed by all these stupid traps in the process, or run away? These aren’t good options man.

ok OP I’m going to break it to you. I’m gonna tell it to you straight.

use sigil of absorption w headshot and L2P

or just like, continue to run this one trick pony gimmick build and spam 3 killing yourself and burst into tears because pressing 3 is all you know and how could it be that there could be ever more to to gameplay than pressing 3. it’s blasphemy. how can you not win everything just by pressing 3.

Captain Obvious.6951:

So while spamming one button may take less skill than having to hit 2 or 3 buttons like an Engi, it’s how the class was designed. Don’t fault me for playing a character as it was designed to be played.

I main thief in pvp. The only skill I “spam” is auto attack, which for dagger/pistol is pretty much the best damage you can deal. Heartseeker is “better” but blowing initiative for top damage is a waste of a ton of utility.

No, spamming exactly one skill isn’t how it is “meant” to be played. That is such an asinine declaration for a profession mechanic that is all about using skills tactically.

So once again I’m back to my point of not liking skills in a PvP game that force me to not attack. What am I supposed to do… run off for 5-10 seconds and ‘wait it out’? Do you realize how dumb that sounds? 5-10 seconds of not being able to attack someone can be the difference in living or dying, winning and losing a fight or a pvp match.

You’re a thief and you’ve spent this entire topic talking about guardian’s access to retaliation over anything else. Sure, others get access to retaliation, but apparently not enough to merit your attention.

Do you realize what Guardian’s position in the pecking order is? They are the hard counter to thief. DH even goes a step further on that.

You are legitimately complaining about a boon that only damages your skill-less playstyle, specifically.

Retaliation is punishing fast attacking heroes, but is all but useless against slow hard hitting ones. Do you realize how dumb THAT sounds?

It’s called combat design. Squirtle beats Charmander, Charmander beats Bulbasaur, Bulbasaur beats Squirtle.

Retaliation beats multi-hitters and quickness, Burst beats Retaliation, Aegis beats Burst, multi-hitters and quickness beat Aegis.

Captain Obvious.6951:

And of all these options all of them only last a couple of seconds, and none of them can even come close to doing an entire life bar of damage back to the enemy player.

One skill on one profession in the game is capable of this. Okay, three on one profession counting your shortbow point. Everyone else has cooldowns, and the fact that you pretend initiative isn’t instead a fancy kind of global cooldown doesn’t change the fact that you’re dying to a boon designed to counter your playstyle.

But putting a boon on and standing still while the enemy kills them self isn’t reactionary at all. In fact it’s just the opposite of that. It’s not reactionary at all. You just press a button, get a boon on, and now what… a player is forced to run off and ‘wait it out’? I mean cmon listen to yourself.

The entire alternative is the enemy dies to your Unload spam. Yes, as others said, you should be playing like a thief. You’re not a duelist, Thief is all about ganking, outmaneuvering, and robbing people of their numbers advantage. If there’s one enemy you can’t kill, that’s supposed to be your team’s job to deal with.

Firing off auto attacks into a crowd on a point and using skill 2 to drop cluster bombs into the crowd I’ve almost killed myself doing that as well.

This still isn’t your role. Yeah, cluster bomb can be a good utility for that purpose sometimes, but as clearly demonstrated, the circumstances must be right. The best thing you could do in the team fight is to put one enemy in down state and then book it to the next point. And if they have retaliation? Do something about the retaliation or just move on.

Again what am I supposed to do against some bunker guardians and engi’s with retaliation on? GO RUN AWAY AND WAIT IT OUT? Letting them control the point and win the game? That isn’t reactionary game play at all.

Guardians/DHs are your hard counter. Do not engage.
Engineers have really good sustain. +1 someone else on an engie or do not engage.

By the way? Most engineers will have reflect on their toolbelt. P/P and SB are 100% susceptible to reflect. Between that, Retaliation, and a bunch of other horrible things, Engie may as well be a soft counter to your specific weaponset.

Sometimes your reactions need to be about the big picture.

Stop running pistol/pistol.

Basically this thread is a L2P issue.

Thief is OP because no one can catch it and have essentially infinite amounts of dodge.

Neco is OP because it has more effective HP than anything else in the game.

Warriors are OP because they can do 10k damage to an unmoving target.

Guardians are OP because they can keep blocking attacks.

etc., etc., etc.

Kadj.6725:

You’re a thief and you’ve spent this entire topic talking about guardian’s access to retaliation over anything else. Sure, others get access to retaliation, but apparently not enough to merit your attention.

Yes others have access to it too. And it’s just as deadly. I talk mostly about guardian though cause it seems like 50% of all players in PvP are Guardians.

You are legitimately complaining about a boon that only damages your skill-less playstyle, specifically.

Actually I’m not. If you use ANY skill that attacks fast with quickness on it you’re going to hit yourself for huge damage. Unload is JUST ONE example of this. You people are all stuck on the fact I just happened to mention unload I mean this could be done for other skills as well.

4 Guys on a point with retaliation on, drop cluster bombs. 4 hits x 4 players = 16 hits, 16 hits of retaliation from one attack? Yah I’ve almost killed myself from using this kill as well. It seems absolutely completely absurd that players are killing other players, by DOING NOTHING. Just having a boon on! WOW WHAT SKILL! YOU PUT A BOON ON AND PEOPLE KILL THEMSELVES!!

It’s called combat design. Squirtle beats Charmander, Charmander beats Bulbasaur, Bulbasaur beats Squirtle.

Of all the PvP I’ve played this game feels less about rock-paper-scissors than any other. That’s one of the things I like about the PvP here. You shouldn’t feel the need to run away from a fight cause ‘oh no rock is there, and i’m scissors, so i can’t win’.

The entire alternative is the enemy dies to your Unload spam.

There’s so many ways to deal with unload spam. Dodging, shield bubbles, invulnerabilities, block walls etc…. I’m failing to see why you think they also should get a boon that returns enough damage to kill your entire life bar.

This still isn’t your role. Yeah, cluster bomb can be a good utility for that purpose sometimes, but as clearly demonstrated, the circumstances must be right.

The circumstances were right. Between engi turrets, Necro pets, and mirror images all blocking bullet path it was a better option to toss out poison and bomb everything. In doing so I almost killed myself from the Guardian and Engi retalation. Once again I find it comlpetely absurd I lost half my health from attacking a couple times when the players are doing NOTHING but getting hit.

Guardians/DHs are your hard counter. Do not engage.
Engineers have really good sustain. +1 someone else on an engie or do not engage.

What class then is so over the top power, so over the top strong, to counter a DH, that he has TO RUN AWAY FROM COMBAT and NOT ENGAGE! RUN AND FEAR FOR HIS LIFE!

Stop running pistol/pistol.

I tried condi Thief. I found it really strong, and exceedingly boring. Just steal and dodge around and watch everyone bleed to death. Yah, no thanks.

I tried some dagger Thief. I found it ok, but meh rather boring again. And with half the players in PvP playing Guardians I’m completely sick of running over all those stupid traps.

So I like pistols. I think they’re a lot of fun for me. People all them gimmicky fine I really don’t care. I’m not even a thief main in fact I just made one for the first time since release. I haven’t played in 4 years but I sure as hell don’t remember retaliation being this bad. Then again I was always a mesmer or warrior back then so maybe didn’t affect them as much.

You can say all the millions of little nitpicky things you want to say. I try to keep things simple and down to earth.

Ask yourself one question:

Is it OK for someone to completely kill another player, by doing nothing other than putting 1 boon on and healing themselves?

My answer: Is absolutely not.

Alternatively I was also suggesting that retaliation get fixed to be more useful in all situations, and not completely useless against 1 shot wonders, and godlike against fast attack spammers.

When Deadeye comes out, and hits you for 20k damage with a snipe, he’ll only take 247 damage returned? Hmmmm that sounds kind of weak. Wouldn’t it be nicer if he hit himself for 2k instead?

Is it OK for someone to completely kill another player, by doing nothing other than pressing 3 and healing themselves?

:P

choovanski.5462:

Is it OK for someone to completely kill another player, by doing nothing other than pressing 3 and healing themselves?

:P

Seeing as the other player has a chance to defend themselves, by blocking, dodging and generally has a chance to counter the attacks, then yes it is OK.

And you wouldn’t answer my question cause you know the answer. When the only counter to retaliation is to ‘run away’ then you know it’s BS.

Is https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Imbued_Melodies too strong? Yes, but only vs who can’t look foe’s boons bar.