Guild Wars 2

This is a screenshot of a 1v1 or should I say 0v1 as I never saw the thief coming. Now I’m a necro with a bit over 2k toughness and 29,600 hp. Never got a chance to hit back, and all this in a matter of about 2-3 seconds. How is this fair is pvp? Should so much burst damage be allowed right after stealth? Not to even mention when they blink out before they spike you.

You went afk and died? I don’t see the problem.

if you weren’t afk you need to uninstall. He hit you with opening burst..followed by auto attacks..followed by 3 heartseekers…ran out of initiative and proceeded to do more auto attacks. this only happens if you are literally standing still afk. or … if you have absolutely no clue how to even move your character.

deathshroud, putting marks below you, dodging and other stuff helps.

No, I was not afk. I was running towards their treb, and had no chance on dodging or other stuff. Was running and he spawned on top of me. Why would I even write a post if I were afk.

A lot of AoE stuff helps because they still take damage while moving through AoE even while invisible.

Sixe.5704:

No, I was not afk. I was running towards their treb, and had no chance on dodging or other stuff. Was running and he spawned on top of me. Why would I even write a post if I were afk.

because the log shows you ate 10+ attacks, each with global cooldowns, that would take longer than 7 seconds to even execute…and you did all of this..without retaliating with even ONE skill.

Good point Luthan, but I don’t think anyone runs around randomly aoeing just in case a thief is around in stealth.

It is not random. When u know thief is around, put Well under your feet to stop the thief Bs you. If you see it too much of a problem to do, I fail to see the point of you winning, honestly.

I am not familiar with the cd of the skills, i’ve never played a thief. This all took no more then 3 seconds. I was running up the ramp for the treb and he poped on top of me. I didn’t have a chance to react at all. Are you saying that the rotation of the skills is not possible? Los Vn was the only one attacking, the previous damage on the list was just before death on a previous encounter. If the rotation is indeed not possible within 3 seconds then he may be using a cheat?

One does not simply get hit by a heartseeker 3 times in a row…

Stealth.9324:

It is not random. When u know thief is around, put Well under your feet to stop the thief Bs you. If you see it too much of a problem to do, I fail to see the point of you winning, honestly.

The problem is I never saw him. Didn’t know he was there. Why would I spam aoe if I didn’t know he was around.

I’m not really here to comment about the kill/damage in question, but if someone hits a triple Heartseeker then no, they don’t have a lot of stealth at all, so I’m not sure what the title of the thread is supposed to relate to. It doesn’t even look like he landed a second CnD since it didn’t register on the log.

necro vs thief is not the best setup for the necro. Anyway maybe you should take some defensive skills. Or maybe ask in the necro forum for a rotation in general against thiefs.

matjazmuhic.1649:

One does not simply get hit by a heartseeker 3 times in a row…

If this is the case, it’s some kind of cheat. I would like the opinion of other thieves in this case, or even a dev, to see if the rotation is indeed impossible within 3 seconds.

Lupanic.6502:

necro vs thief is not the best setup for the necro. Anyway maybe you should take some defensive skills. Or maybe ask in the necro forum for a rotation in general against thiefs.

I am generally happy with my build, and can hold my own on most 1v1, it being a thief, ele or guardian. The post is not on building a rotation for a necro, even being a necro has nothing to do with the post. The question is, is so much stealth fair, especially when you have so much burst damage? Someone to pop on top of you and kill you within 3 seconds doesn’t seem fair. The post has raised another question as well. Is this rotation possible withing 3 seconds?

You didn’t have time to react? Was your movement restrained? What does this have to do with stealth? It looks like he used a backstab opener, steal and spammed heartseeker.

Necros can dodge roll during any part of this combo and the thief will run out of initiative, or use death shroud, or one of the many damage mitigation skills/ traits (spectral armor), or heal, or run, or cast an aoe well/mark on the ground.

Looks like a steal + mug w/ stealth then backstab followed by 3 heart seekers. If I am reading that correctly. This would be totally possible but would probably take closer to 4-5 seconds. Maybe 3-4 if hasted but I don’t have any experience with haste as a thief.

I have played thief not much but i know that thiefs do not have CD, hence why they can spam skills. They do however have a GCD at which is more or less how long it takes them to produce said skills..
My one friend has told me about being able to macro thiefs skill onto a keyboard with recordable macro buttons. This allows the thief to put said rotation into 1 button(this is obviously a bannable offense(my friend does not use this method anymore because it is bannable))

Hope this helps somewhat, and i agree that that damage is ridiculous and with 2k toughness..imagine on a zerker build 1 HS hit for 10-12k??

mursie.3681:

You went afk and died? I don’t see the problem.

if you weren’t afk you need to uninstall. He hit you with opening burst..followed by auto attacks..followed by 3 heartseekers…ran out of initiative and proceeded to do more auto attacks. this only happens if you are literally standing still afk. or … if you have absolutely no clue how to even move your character.

This exactly. Anyone whose played thief and looks at what he did to you would come to the logical conclusion that you had no idea what you were doing if he could land all those and you never hit him with a single thing during that time.

You are just lying mate, you had more than enough time to react (unless you have the reaction time of a sloth), you just got mad you didnt know what to do (you even said so yourself, that you dont know what thieves do) and came to the forums to find a way to relieve the frustration of beeing bad at the pvp part of the game.
All there is to say is practice more and get better. Thieves are fine and so is stealth.

Sixe.5704:

matjazmuhic.1649:

One does not simply get hit by a heartseeker 3 times in a row…

If this is the case, it’s some kind of cheat. I would like the opinion of other thieves in this case, or even a dev, to see if the rotation is indeed impossible within 3 seconds.

You need to take some time to learn some of the core basics about thieves. I do not say this to flame you. For example, thieves do not have cooldowns on their weapons skills. They use initiative. Also, from the combat log it looks like he stealthed once when he initiated combat.

What you ran into was a fragile thief in a glass cannon build. He might have been using the haste skill making his attacks a little faster. One more tip, heartseeker is a weak attack when your health is above 50%. If you can keep it up than he will use up all of his initiative.

What others have said about AoE is correct. You can still damage him while he is in stealth. Put wells on the ground, and use AoE to keep him at bay. If you keep him away from you than stealth will run out and he will run away. If he engages you then well timed fears and other crowd control effects will ruin his day. The longer you are able to extend the fight the more likelihood he will either run away or die. You want to outlast him.

Hello,
i see that u got hit by 2 flame blast(5 secs cd), so it took him more than 5 secs, or maybe just 5 or 6 seconds with you just standing there without moving.
So…yeah, u just didnt react pretty well there, it wasnt just oneshot and bye.
Sorry about my english.

Best way to avoid this is to find a good theif and duel him a lot of times. I remember I dueled a theif to get better and lost 30 times in a row. I ended up changing my whole build correctly and to this day theifs are just minor annoyances to me.

But also just to note I do know a reallllly good theif who has a lot of stealth that still deals massive burst while regening in stealth constantly. This is the only theif I can’t beat as he can literally resets the fight causing a 30min duel=stalment….his build has no team support however so its no big deal.

Lux.7169:

mursie.3681:

You went afk and died? I don’t see the problem.

if you weren’t afk you need to uninstall. He hit you with opening burst..followed by auto attacks..followed by 3 heartseekers…ran out of initiative and proceeded to do more auto attacks. this only happens if you are literally standing still afk. or … if you have absolutely no clue how to even move your character.

This exactly. Anyone whose played thief and looks at what he did to you would come to the logical conclusion that you had no idea what you were doing if he could land all those and you never hit him with a single thing during that time.

Lets not judge, I have 3 80s and rank 32 pvp, I’m not a noob. I couldn’t react. And how does Flame Blast work? Isn’t it an engineer’s skill with 6 second cd? How can it be used twice in such a short time?

Sixe.5704:

Lux.7169:

mursie.3681:

You went afk and died? I don’t see the problem.

if you weren’t afk you need to uninstall. He hit you with opening burst..followed by auto attacks..followed by 3 heartseekers…ran out of initiative and proceeded to do more auto attacks. this only happens if you are literally standing still afk. or … if you have absolutely no clue how to even move your character.

This exactly. Anyone whose played thief and looks at what he did to you would come to the logical conclusion that you had no idea what you were doing if he could land all those and you never hit him with a single thing during that time.

Lets not judge, I have 3 80s and rank 32 pvp, I’m not a noob. I couldn’t react. And how does Flame Blast work? Isn’t it an engineer’s skill with 6 second cd? How can it be used twice in such a short time?

Flame Blast is a Sigil, it goes on weapons and it procs a ‘flame blast’ effect on crit. It’s popular with classes that spec into crit because it’s a fairly reliable extra source of damage. Anyone can slot one, even Necros.

Ayzze.8154:

Hello,
i see that u got hit by 2 flame blast(5 secs cd), so it took him more than 5 secs, or maybe just 5 or 6 seconds with you just standing there without moving.
So…yeah, u just didnt react pretty well there, it wasnt just oneshot and bye.
Sorry about my english.

No Ayzee, this all took place within about 3 second. I had no time to react. I don’t remember if I did or not honestly, but I use both Razer mouse and game pad and my skills are reaction now more then thought. That’s why it’s so odd to me. Unless there was a lag spike which I did not notice, all this took place within 3 seconds.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_sigil_of_fire

Frellin.6318:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_sigil_of_fire

cooldown is 5sec. So it does not proc twice in a 3sec fight.

Maybe you had a connection problem, lag or something. Maybe it looked for you like 3sec.

Yes it is, if you removed the only really competent melee class in the game, this would degenerate into a shooting gallery (even more so than it already is), it would be CoD with out the first person camera and the cool guns.

Sixe.5704:

Stealth.9324:

It is not random. When u know thief is around, put Well under your feet to stop the thief Bs you. If you see it too much of a problem to do, I fail to see the point of you winning, honestly.

The problem is I never saw him. Didn’t know he was there. Why would I spam aoe if I didn’t know he was around.

The problem is not that you never saw him.The problem is here you know he is coming and choose to do nothing about it. If you see a thief and he is steal to approach and clock and dagger for stealth, you know that Bs is followed. Let say ok, I don’t have enough time for that BS, fair enough. Now have a look at ur Hp, if ur Ho below 50% expect HS spamming, why not heal, why not DS to migrate dams, why not Well under your feet to give him trouble. most of all, why not evade or run???You choose to do nothing and Not to be rude but you will need to study a thief class for sure and also, learn to dodge, heal and use your skill.

Ok, in doing some research it seems the rotation is possible. I assume it went like this:
he opened with steal + FB + backstab which is 1/4 of a second = 11k damage…
Then double strike (instant) = 1400 damage… leading to Wild Strike, Lotus Strike ( no cast time, no cd). ..
Then Heartseeker (3 hits with Flame Blast proc again) = ~ 20k damage.
So the whole rotation based on cd of FB was 5 seconds. Maybe I lag poped for a second and didn’t notice it.
Which brings us back to the original question on post.. All this damage coming out of stealth just doesn’t seem fair. I’ve played NCSoft since they bought out L1, and they’ve always loved their daggers, but there should be a second of damage mitigation coming out of stealth.

With 2k toughness and almost 30k hits you should ruin that thief’s day. No way he should be able to burst you before you retaliate.
I suspect you lagged as others have pointed out. I main necro, most of the time with lower toughness and lower hits and generally do not get owned by thief burst unless they catch me unaware in the midst of a team fight.

And @ mursie – There is no reason to be so rude to the guy. I agree with most of the content of your message, but presenting your opinion that way is no good for anyone, and it is bad for the community in general because it turns people off to PvP (which I think you would agree could use more population). You are too good a player to rage and drive people away from the game. Help make the competition better and you will have better matches and more fun.

In response to the OP question… The burst is a bit over the top against lower hp classes (only marginally though), but before you can nerf it you need to give thieves another viable build, because that GC spec is the only thing they can do really well at the moment.

Apolo.5942:

Yes it is, if you removed the only really competent melee class in the game, this would degenerate into a shooting gallery (even more so than it already is), it would be CoD with out the first person camera and the cool guns.

I do agree with you to the fact of thieves being the, if not “really competent melee class” the only “true melee class” in the game. However, as the game evolved in pvp, going melee is in most cases, and for most classes, (especially the squishy casters) the only way to go. You wander why ele go DD? you ever play ele utilizing any other build? It’s a fail. Same with Necros; cast times are way to long as a caster, everyone just dusts off conditions now, and pets are mindless meat bait on a hook. What’s left? Dagger and/or Axe. Which is a shame because I’ve always played casters, but since pvp is all I do now, I am reduced to becoming a melee class myself.

Sixe.5704:

Lux.7169:

mursie.3681:

You went afk and died? I don’t see the problem.

if you weren’t afk you need to uninstall. He hit you with opening burst..followed by auto attacks..followed by 3 heartseekers…ran out of initiative and proceeded to do more auto attacks. this only happens if you are literally standing still afk. or … if you have absolutely no clue how to even move your character.

This exactly. Anyone whose played thief and looks at what he did to you would come to the logical conclusion that you had no idea what you were doing if he could land all those and you never hit him with a single thing during that time.

Lets not judge, I have 3 80s and rank 32 pvp, I’m not a noob. I couldn’t react. And how does Flame Blast work? Isn’t it an engineer’s skill with 6 second cd? How can it be used twice in such a short time?

Let’s not judge? I’m rank 43 and just play thief in tourneys. Are you on the ladder? Do you play pvp competitively at all or is this really your first time fighting a 2spam thief? He didn’t even engage you with shortbow or wait to spike you when you were 60-50% health. He literally opened his combo with you at (full???) health and 2spammed you to death which is remarkably hard to do unless you’re afk or have no idea what you’re doing. The fact that he could pull all of that on you means you’re not doing something right. You’re actually doing a lot of things wrong if he lands all of that on you and you don’t hit him with a single attack.

The fact that you don’t even know what was happening demonstrates your lack of technical knowledge in the game. The thief had a rune of fire on his dagger (or pistol we don’t know because he only spammed 2 on you and you died). Sigil of fire is sub-par to sigil of air for single targets. He proceeded to 2spam you until you died.

I don’t know why you say stealth was the problem. All it did was give him the first strike, which he would have gotten anyway with steal.

Stealth wasn’t the problem. Failing to understand how to react to a weak burst seems to be the real problem.

mursie.3681:

Sixe.5704:

No, I was not afk. I was running towards their treb, and had no chance on dodging or other stuff. Was running and he spawned on top of me. Why would I even write a post if I were afk.

because the log shows you ate 10+ attacks, each with global cooldowns, that would take longer than 7 seconds to even execute…and you did all of this..without retaliating with even ONE skill.

He ate 5 attacks. And two of those – steal + backstab happened instantly. So he basically ate just three heartseekers.

Sixe.5704:

…Same with Necros; cast times are way to long as a caster, everyone just dusts off conditions now, and pets are mindless meat bait on a hook. What’s left? Dagger and/or Axe. Which is a shame because I’ve always played casters, but since pvp is all I do now, I am reduced to becoming a melee class myself.

eh. To be fair condition necro is still very good (even after the Epidemic nerf). Scepter/Dagger, Staff is still the favorite of most necros in PvP (especially good ones). The power necro is MUCH harder to play well for a number of reasons that I don’t want to derail your thread with. Having played both a reasonable amount I can honestly say that if you think conditions are not viable as a necro, then you are missing something. I would suggest trying it again and investing some time in it.

I like how people assume the OP lagged out and not the thief…

The reactions of most in here is a true reminder of what’s left in the barrel when good people move on from something that doesn’t work. Perhaps it is time to move on and stop forking over the monthly premium, before that paste on the bottom of that barrel becomes too smelly.
@ Myrmidian Eudoros.4671 Thanks for trying to keep some civility in here. Hope you last longer.

bhagwad.4281:

mursie.3681:

Sixe.5704:

No, I was not afk. I was running towards their treb, and had no chance on dodging or other stuff. Was running and he spawned on top of me. Why would I even write a post if I were afk.

because the log shows you ate 10+ attacks, each with global cooldowns, that would take longer than 7 seconds to even execute…and you did all of this..without retaliating with even ONE skill.

He ate 5 attacks. And two of those – steal + backstab happened instantly. So he basically ate just three heartseekers.

double strike and lotus strike are auto attacks. they count. to get to lotus you have to hit two double strikes. he ate two chains of that. those don’t happen on top of your skills. they are after them … as attacks.

there are 11 total attacks that occur.

My problem with the thread is that it’s saying: “Thief is OP because it bursted me down from stealth”

instead of: “I was just burst to death by a thief, how can I improve”

People are expecting us to answer the 2nd question when it was never asked and are getting mad at us for responding to the first.

But even if you have the best build and does not make a mistake it is possible that a thief takes you down. Even top players are dying in seconds from time to time if a thief catch them.

Even if the thief used haste and got a critical haste proc just after the original haste wore off this cannot happend in 1-3s.

You obviously were AFK or something.

A dodge roll, stun break, well, anything would have kept you alive. Plague form even…

Lupanic.6502:

But even if you have the best build and does not make a mistake it is possible that a thief takes you down. Even top players are dying in seconds from time to time if a thief catch them.

Actually no. In high-end tPvP it’s almost impossible for a thief to 1v1 any class (besides warrior).

Thief is literally one of the weakest classes in the high-end spectrum of the ladder and they’re even weaker 1v1.

“Gets hit by three heartseekers, doesn’t move”

Seriously?

It’s unbelievable that these threads still show up when in reality thieves are amongst the worst classes for pvp.

Lupanic.6502:

But even if you have the best build and does not make a mistake it is possible that a thief takes you down. Even top players are dying in seconds from time to time if a thief catch them.

Lupanic – please tell me in current tpvp what role you believe the thief should be? Should they bunk a point? stealth does not allow you to cap so unfortunately their one true defensive ability actually promotes capping for the other team when fighting on a point.

do you think they should be team support with heals or boon sharing? That doesn’t exist.

What do you think the thief class should do? should they just be super mobile and roam to all the points to see the bunkers sitting on them. maybe wave and say hi? in tpvp there are no ninja caps. Teams don’t leave points undefended.

So what should a thief be brought for? They have this one ability.. it can only land once every four seconds from stealth… (assuming you could even auto reapply stealth after the 4 sec reveal)… and this ability hits four DOUBLE dmg. what are the devs telling us about this class? Are they foreshadowing its role?

You are telling me that a thief, if played correctly, can SOMETIMES burst a good player in seconds. hmm..

yeah that sounds about right. i’d almost venture… that is kind of their entire point.

Lux.7169:

Lupanic.6502:

But even if you have the best build and does not make a mistake it is possible that a thief takes you down. Even top players are dying in seconds from time to time if a thief catch them.

Actually no. In high-end tPvP it’s almost impossible for a thief to 1v1 any class (besides warrior).

Thief is literally one of the weakest classes in the high-end spectrum of the ladder and they’re even weaker 1v1.

Come on. Look at the stream from Ostricheggs or Teldo.

I only play Engineer so I watch only engineer streams. A quote from Teldo is: I am chasing the thief…ohhh… the thief is chasing me…. I am dead.

And on the spirit watch map was ostricheggs killed by a thief 3 times in ~2minutes. It was not a perfect 1on1. But the thief selected the perfect moment and killed ostrichegg.

It does not mean that the thief is winning 10 of 10 times. In a 1on1 situation it is important to have everything up to beat a good thief. I did not watch necro streams but I bet 10 duels between a top necro and a top thief will not end 10:0.

Lux.7169:

Lupanic.6502:

But even if you have the best build and does not make a mistake it is possible that a thief takes you down. Even top players are dying in seconds from time to time if a thief catch them.

Actually no. In high-end tPvP it’s almost impossible for a thief to 1v1 any class (besides warrior).

Thief is literally one of the weakest classes in the high-end spectrum of the ladder and they’re even weaker 1v1.

Pretty much this. Thieves have very little chance in higher tiers against any class 1v1 except other pure glass builds.

Their only role is to quickly finish off damaged and pre-occupied targets with no cooldown’s left in teamfights and using mobility to turn numbers in their team’s favor. They can serve that role very well, but only if the rest of his team can hold their own, which means that solo q tournies can be a very hostile environment for Thieves…

Lupanic.6502:

Lux.7169:

Lupanic.6502:

But even if you have the best build and does not make a mistake it is possible that a thief takes you down. Even top players are dying in seconds from time to time if a thief catch them.

Actually no. In high-end tPvP it’s almost impossible for a thief to 1v1 any class (besides warrior).

Thief is literally one of the weakest classes in the high-end spectrum of the ladder and they’re even weaker 1v1.

Come on. Look at the stream from Ostricheggs or Teldo.

I only play Engineer so I watch only engineer streams. A quote from Teldo is: I am chasing the thief…ohhh… the thief is chasing me…. I am dead.

And on the spirit watch map was ostricheggs killed by a thief 3 times in ~2minutes. It was not a perfect 1on1. But the thief selected the perfect moment and killed ostrichegg.

It does not mean that the thief is winning 10 of 10 times. In a 1on1 situation it is important to have everything up to beat a good thief. I did not watch necro streams but I bet 10 duels between a top necro and a top thief will not end 10:0.

I haven’t watched these in particular but I know Ostrich runs a squishy HGH nade build and if he doesn’t have dodge-rolls or S available of course a thief can insta-burst him.

There’s only a handful of players in the top 100, or even 200 that tourney with thief, and majority of them are running venom share.

mursie.3681:

Lupanic.6502:

But even if you have the best build and does not make a mistake it is possible that a thief takes you down. Even top players are dying in seconds from time to time if a thief catch them.

Lupanic – please tell me in current tpvp what role you believe the thief should be? Should they bunk a point? stealth does not allow you to cap so unfortunately their one true defensive ability actually promotes capping for the other team when fighting on a point.

do you think they should be team support with heals or boon sharing? That doesn’t exist.

What do you think the thief class should do? should they just be super mobile and roam to all the points to see the bunkers sitting on them. maybe wave and say hi? in tpvp there are no ninja caps. Teams don’t leave points undefended.

So what should a thief be brought for? They have this one ability.. it can only land once every four seconds from stealth… (assuming you could even auto reapply stealth after the 4 sec reveal)… and this ability hits four DOUBLE dmg. what are the devs telling us about this class? Are they foreshadowing its role?

You are telling me that a thief, if played correctly, can SOMETIMES burst a good player in seconds. hmm..

yeah that sounds about right. i’d almost venture… that is kind of their entire point.

Sorry if wrote something wrong. In my point of view the thief is perfect fine, sorry if this is not clear.

He is able to support this group with damage and this is what he is doing. He moves from spot to spot. He is deadly if he attacks opponents with low hp or with no cooldowns. If you catch him he has to escape or he dies.
In my point of view the thief is fine.