Guild Wars 2

Don’t get me wrong I love reading QQ threads but I am wondering what these QQers are really referring to.

I can see the frustration of new players when they deal with mechanics such as stealth, but is it really OP or just cheap???!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!? pls respond.

I compare thieves to online flow chart kens in street fighter, they will most likely kill you the first round because they play like complete idiots, but the next 2 rounds you faceroll them because you know how to fight them. But no one calls Ken OP, they usually refer to him as cheap in online play because they usually mash their 3 frame uppercut. pls respawn

Are thieves cheap or op? That is the question

Define sensation…

Anyway, this thread could become gold. popcorn

Watching thieves dance in and out of stealth during a fight is just plain annoying. Watching mesmers escape everything via clones/stealth and then dump on you is equally annoying. Getting hit multiple times from stealth before seeing your opponent is annoying.

Common factor? Stealth. Stealth is annoying. There isn’t a single MMO that incorporates stealth where stealth hasn’t been annoying.

Thieves and Mesmers are fine, fix stealth.

Hammerheart.1426:

Watching thieves dance in and out of stealth during a fight is just plain annoying. Watching mesmers escape everything via clones/stealth and then dump on you is equally annoying. Getting hit multiple times from stealth before seeing your opponent is annoying.

Common factor? Stealth. Stealth is annoying. There isn’t a single MMO that incorporates stealth where stealth hasn’t been annoying.

Thieves and Mesmers are fine, fix stealth.

Mesmers usually only stealth to RUNNNN lol. at least I do. Stealth is the point of some of these classes. Stealth is one of base mechanics (entire trait line for it) of thieves great group utility in the hands of a mesmer. I have heard people rage that mesmers need to lose the ability to pop clones as often as possible… They obviously haven’t played a mesmer because we can only have a limited number out at a time… and having clones is the basis of our class…

Yeah, I enjoy fighting thieves too because they usually have weed on them, so not only do I get to kick their kitten I also get a free bag of weed. win-win situat

Theoretically it is both. It can be OP and it can just be plain cheap.

However, i agree with Hammerheart. Stealth is the key.

If the stealth time got reduced to 1 second, then i honestly think it would be more interesting. Having the possibility of being untargetable for 3 or more seconds is too much.

With 1 second stealth, it would give the thiefs the same amount of time, to pull off their backstab combo, as it takes for a player to react to counter it.
Maybe ½ a sec

Damage wise, thiefs are fine – even the 7k backstabs are fine. Problem is rendering and the stealth. Just too many abilities that grant you stealth.

2 cents delivered

Heartseeker is the only thing I’d consider “cheap” in this context and that’s because it quite literally is cheap.

3 Initiative for a 450 range leap, auto-targeting, leap-finisher and over 5000+ damage.

The fact that you can spam it makes it seem even cheaper.

Stealth is fine in principle, although culling is not.

Hammerheart.1426:

Common factor? Stealth. Stealth is annoying. There isn’t a single MMO that incorporates stealth where stealth hasn’t been annoying.

^
This is basically all it is. Doesn’t matter if stealth classes can even kill anyone, you could gut them to do 1hp damage on their hardest hitting attack. Wouldn’t change the fact that stealth/invisibility is the most obnoxious annoying thing ever put in mmos. It’s been kittened about, vehemently, in all of them. Seems to be a common factor. Stealth is just lame, annoying and a crappy mechanic to have in pvp situations.

However, i agree with Hammerheart. Stealth is the key.

If the stealth time got reduced to 1 second, then i honestly think it would be more interesting. Having the possibility of being untargetable for 3 or more seconds is too much.

With 1 second stealth, it would give the thiefs the same amount of time, to pull off their backstab combo, as it takes for a player to react to counter it.
Maybe ½ a sec

Damage wise, thiefs are fine – even the 7k backstabs are fine. Problem is rendering and the stealth. Just too many abilities that grant you stealth.

2 cents delivered

In WoW, WAR, Rift, etc all stealth based classes have had the following mechanic:

1) One out of combat stealth, on toggle, with a respectable cooldown.
2) One emergency, in combat stealth, with a long cooldown.

In all of these games, stealth broke immediately upon causing or receiving any damage. Your character became visible almost instantly, at which point you relied on skill to either escape or win.

What makes stealth in this game annoying is that Thieves have access to multiple stealths, group stealths, and all of them usable in combat. Granted, they do not have an out of combat that leaves them in stealth indefinitely, but I think we all know why. Damage does not bring them out of combat, which I am personally fine with. But the time it takes to make them visible is unacceptable.

Dee Jay.2460:

Heartseeker is the only thing I’d consider “cheap” in this context and that’s because it quite literally is cheap.

3 Initiative for a 450 range leap, auto-targeting, leap-finisher and over 5000+ damage.

The fact that you can spam it makes it seem even cheaper.

Stealth is fine in principle, although culling is not.

Totally agreed.

HS is cheap and OP because there is no risk reward to it. Its basically a ranged homing attack with great damage. I love how everyone says “just dodge” when its a skill that can be spammed more than you can dodge in a given time span. To me the better attacks should be harder to land and set up. Lower dmg attacks would be just fine using hs type delivery.

Mesmers are just built to be annoying. Clone spam is cheese but its kinda there thing so I’m not as bothered by mesmers as thieves.

@OP: I never really played Streetfighter, but yeah … it is a complete valid question you have there NP.
I really find thieves are OP … in the right hands. And in the wrong hands they are just cheap, but in no way OP. Either way, it feels unavoidable, that they are cheesy … it is too easy to be be effective and cover mistakes with escapes. On top some ways to escape can be used for pressure or healing.

Nothing wrong with stealth or its duration. Thing about thieves is they can spam stealth very often which I guess makes them “annoying”. I think backstab (due to its damage coming straight out of stealth) it is cheap, but heartseeker is semi OP, like others have mentioned; 3 initiative and 450 range homing attack doing big damage that can be spammed is a bit OP. However, I have no problem against them with my mesmer :P

dd ele= op..but generally not cheap
d/d glass cannon backstab combo cheap. and maybe op? mostly cheap
d/d heartseek spam.. just cheap
haste,bullscharge,100b,eviserate- increadibly cheap. not op :P
mesmer- moa… hugely cheap.. not op
mesmer portal . situationally both cheap and op.

the two are not mutally exclusive!

dd ele = op and cheap
bunker guard/ele = op and cheap
mesmer portal = op and cheap
guad/thief/necro/ele/mes team composition = op and cheap

Conclusion: there is no difference between op and cheap

Hammerheart.1426:

However, i agree with Hammerheart. Stealth is the key.

If the stealth time got reduced to 1 second, then i honestly think it would be more interesting. Having the possibility of being untargetable for 3 or more seconds is too much.

With 1 second stealth, it would give the thiefs the same amount of time, to pull off their backstab combo, as it takes for a player to react to counter it.
Maybe ½ a sec

Damage wise, thiefs are fine – even the 7k backstabs are fine. Problem is rendering and the stealth. Just too many abilities that grant you stealth.

2 cents delivered

In WoW, WAR, Rift, etc all stealth based classes have had the following mechanic:

1) One out of combat stealth, on toggle, with a respectable cooldown.
2) One emergency, in combat stealth, with a long cooldown.

In all of these games, stealth broke immediately upon causing or receiving any damage. Your character became visible almost instantly, at which point you relied on skill to either escape or win.

What makes stealth in this game annoying is that Thieves have access to multiple stealths, group stealths, and all of them usable in combat. Granted, they do not have an out of combat that leaves them in stealth indefinitely, but I think we all know why. Damage does not bring them out of combat, which I am personally fine with. But the time it takes to make them visible is unacceptable.

I’ve played as Stealth Classes in every game you mentioned here and honestly, GW2 handles it better than all of them.

The problem people have with opponents stealthing in GW2 is the perception that they’re not able to dmg while a Thief is stealthed, when in actuality, Pets don’t drop aggro and Projectile and Channeled attacks continue following and damaging provided they are cast before the Thief Initiates Stealth. Likewise AoE’s, cleaves, and swings still do dmg as well if the Thief is in range of them.

So while the Thief doesn’t get popped from stealth, dmg is still very much possible while in most other games stealthing not only drops targeting but disables most of those attacks from being able to do any dmg whatsoever.

So it’s just a perception adjustment that needs to be made. Though I do think Pets should at least temporarily deaggro with stealth since they’re neither a projectile nor a channel but I digress.

Not entirely sure what you mean by “cheap.” But from your example it sounds like your “cheap” is very similar to what some players refer to as cheese (a 6-pool from Starcraft being the classic example). Cheese is often irritating, but not overpowered, although it certainly can be if there are no viable, effective counters (for example, SCV rushes in early SC2 beta, which I understand were instant win against Zerg or Toss).

To me, OP means, as you approach a high level of game play, a certain profession in a certain build will always win 1v1 against any other profession, or provides something that makes them mandatory. In this case, with Portal, I feel Mesmer is currently the only “OP” profession in that respect. Guardians are skimming the rim of it, but still in a good place overall since the fix to weapon swaps in tPvP play to ruin their swiftness ability.

“Cheap” to me means a certain class can acheive above average results with little effort compared to other classes, but does not mean they are better or mandatory. This is where Thieves fall for me. They are cheap… and annoying… but in general, 1v1 vs. any other profession without any type of distractions going on, they are mid to above mid tier overall to me, but not even close to what I call “OP”.

IMO.

Dee Jay.2460:

Heartseeker is the only thing I’d consider “cheap” in this context and that’s because it quite literally is cheap.

3 Initiative for a 450 range leap, auto-targeting, leap-finisher and over 5000 + damage.

The fact that you can spam it makes it seem even cheaper.

Stealth is fine in principle, although culling is not.

Only does that much damage when you are at 25% or below and when you are it should kill you.

But heartseeker probably should not auto-target, or have the leap.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

But heartseeker probably should not auto-target, or have the leap.

The leap would be fine as long as the auto-target was removed. It’d be like burning speed that way with d/d ele’s, where you actually have to think, position correctly with proper range for it to execute right and you know, have skill.

Hell same goes for deathblossom for that matter. Though I just hate anytime the game plays for you:
auto-face/target/tracking
AI pets
etc.

yes, there is. bunker guards are OP. mesmers are OP. thieves are cheap.

thieves are a “cheap” class.. i will admit thier ability to disappear ever .5 seconds in pvp int he middle of fighting them is seriously annoying.. however there is a way around that. stay with your group and dont get caught all alone. problem solved.

oh.. and people calling other classes OP just cause they don’t know how to play their toons and counter other classes are just fail players. Quit crying OP and NERF cause you don’t understand how to counter other classes.

bslapya.6384:

thieves are a “cheap” class.. i will admit thier ability to disappear ever .5 seconds in pvp int he middle of fighting them is seriously annoying.. however there is a way around that. stay with your group and dont get caught all alone. problem solved.

oh.. and people calling other classes OP just cause they don’t know how to play their toons and counter other classes are just fail players. Quit crying OP and NERF cause you don’t understand how to counter other classes.

The fact that you got to have guardians and mesmers in any team comp, against equally organized and skilled team, does make them OP. It doesn’t matter if they are beatable or not, and they are. What matters is that they are outperforming every other class in some aspects crucial to tPvP with this mode, such as bunker role, or back point holder. Yes, other classes can make bunker builds, or like already mentioned, back point holder roles. But why would you take those if you can as well just take guardian and mesmer, who can fill those roles better than any other profession?

Can you counter them? Yes, you can, but that brings us to the next problem where teams need to take some utilities just to counter those professions, and that in itself limits team comps.

Dee Jay.2460:

Heartseeker is the only thing I’d consider “cheap” in this context and that’s because it quite literally is cheap.

3 Initiative for a 450 range leap, auto-targeting, leap-finisher and over 5000+ damage.

The fact that you can spam it makes it seem even cheaper.

Stealth is fine in principle, although culling is not.

Imagine if warriors could spam eviscerate. That’s what hearsteeker is. It has the same damage and range, but it can be spammed 4-5 times, before having to wait a few seconds before you can spam it another 4-5 times.

Krilce.7864:

Can you counter them? Yes, you can, but that brings us to the next problem where teams need to take some utilities just to counter those professions, and that in itself limits team comps.

In a game with just 3 utility skills, having to bring specific skills to counter just one class would be absurd.

bslapya.6384:

oh.. and people calling other classes OP just cause they don’t know how to play their toons and counter other classes are just fail players. Quit crying OP and NERF cause you don’t understand how to counter other classes.

no, it is well known that certain profs are over-represented, nay, mandatory, for higher level tournament play. further, certain specs are mandatory. by mandatory i mean if u you opt for lesser alternatives, you will likely lose against equally skilled opponents.

lets start with definitions…
cheap = skill/build that reach a good efficiency with low player skill
OP = skill/build that is really hard / impossible to counter and can set a turning point in a fight.
- – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – -
HS = cheap, not really OP (can be dodged but a little too easy access to it)
backstab = not so cheap, a little close to be OP (high dmg for a single hit, specially in WvW)
bacstab build = not cheap, not OP (high dmg but no longevity at all)
P/D build = cheap, not OP
stealth mechanic = quiet often cheap, almost OP (for thieves c/d being so easily accessible)
100b = quiet cheap, not OP (easily countered by any stun breaker and so on….)
eviscerate = cheap, not OP
Killshot = uber cheap, not op at all
shatter burst mesmer = not so cheap, not actually OP (nerfs ftw)
Phantasmal mesmer = kittening cheap, not totally OP (depends on the amount of opponent’s aoe)

Chi Malady.2015:

Krilce.7864:

Can you counter them? Yes, you can, but that brings us to the next problem where teams need to take some utilities just to counter those professions, and that in itself limits team comps.

In a game with just 3 utility skills, having to bring specific skills to counter just one class would be absurd.

That’s what I’m talking about. It really limits combination of professions you can bring and still be viable, on equal footing as your enemy team.

Rezz.8019:

dd ele = op and cheap
bunker guard/ele = op and cheap
mesmer portal = op and cheap
guad/thief/necro/ele/mes team composition = op and cheap

Conclusion: there is no difference between op and cheap

In reference to the mesmer portal being cheap.. When not being used by a team it is simply a get the hell out quick card… I usually drop an enter portal a safe distance away from the fight and if the fight gets crazy in that minute i drop an exit portal then mass invis blink and get the hell outta dodge… SO there is skill that goes in placement and use of a portal…

nope no difference OP is cheap by nature.
not gonna get into specific classes/skills but its the same for all games,
if its overpowered its cheap.
(i played a blood DK in WoW and let me tell ya’ it was’nt skill that let me win 5V1s!)

Absolutely.

Cheep = easy to do, irritating and ‘anti-fun’ to play against, may provide a ‘free win’ against a player not expecting it

OP = may be very difficult, or not, to execute, but when correctly executed has few or no viable counters, may provide a ‘free win’ regardless of opponents preparedness.

Some things may be both cheep and OP, but this is not a given.

ranger shortbow spam = cheap. I have a trap/condi sb ranger and it’s the most boring char ive played in spvp.

so i wanna say that stealth as a mechanic how it’s designed for this game is balanced, but there are 2 ways its implementation is broken IMO that makes it frustrating, cheap, and OP.

first, which is mentioned a lot, is WTF does it take 2-3 secs for them to appear when coming out of stealth? that is unacceptable.

second, which i find to be MORE of an issue that doesnt get mentioned a lot is that it DROPS TARGET when stealthing. which might not sound that bad, and is probably intended, but heres how a lot of encounters go:

thief unloads on me (i can hear it). i immediately stun break / CC / attack, and get him down pretty low. he stealths. im also hurt from the initial burst. i frantically look around with a CC skill rdy, he finally appears (and slowly renders). so now im trying to target him to get my CC off before he unloads on me again, but i tab to a jagged horror, a rock dog, some turrets, a ranger pet, etc, before finally getting back to the thief and by then hes back on top of me and i missed my split second chance to CC him (or he simply gets away even with low health, cause i cant target him before he gets out of range).

its hard to mouse target when im frantically mouse looking around for him and moving (and he takes a while to appear), and in many fights even a 1S stealth PUNISHES the attacker for 3-5 seconds while fumbling around simply trying to retarget again.

i guess the argument would be that if it kept target, it would be too easy to tell who the real mesmer is. but despite that, its an utterly broken and cheap handicap that….

tl:dr? IF U HAD SOMEONE TARGETTED AND THEY STEALTH IT SHOULD RETARGET THEM UPON UNSTEALTH (if you havent chosen a different target)

Heartseeker is cheap. All you have to do is mash the 2 key. If the enemy doesnt have an immobilize/chill, they’re screwed. 2 dodges when the Thief can spam it 3+ times is annoying. As a thief, my answer for that is the chill effect upon switching to my shortbow, but still it’s quite cheap.

The only problem with stealth is culling, which they have stated they are working on but it will take time.

As for flowchart Kens, if you’re eatting every single Shoryuken, you’re pretty dumb. You just simply block the Shoryuken and punish them after. It’s the Kens that mix up and kara-throw you gotta worry about. Not the scrubs. But if they can beat you with a flowchart, it says a lot about you. O.o

Speaking of which the Southern California Regionals are gonna start like next week. I cant wait to watch some great SF players.

I amazed this hasn’t been stated yet in this manner.

Steath is overpowered AND cheap

Reason being?

There is no counter for stealth

You heard it, the thief can land all the damage and get hit all they want but they won’t appear. There are no anti stealth fields, you can’t get lucky and hit them with some kind of attack and reveal them. Stealth to me was bearable back when the target didn’t drop when they went invis. That to me was a good period….it was kind of like a stealth counter. You knew you still had them targeted so you could react accordingly..

Stealth will not be overpowered AND cheap when there is a legitimate counter mechanic introduced to this game. Until then every profession that can abuse stealth has a hug leg up on the rest of us

I guess cheap refers to something that is easy to execute and yields relatively good results (example Heartseeker spam).

Overpowered can have a much wider range and simply means that an ability or profession or build goes beyond the perceived limits set by the game. (example Portal Bombing)

Raijinn.9065:

I amazed this hasn’t been stated yet in this manner.

Steath is overpowered AND cheap

Reason being?

There is no counter for stealth

You heard it, the thief can land all the damage and get hit all they want but they won’t appear. There are no anti stealth fields, you can’t get lucky and hit them with some kind of attack and reveal them. Stealth to me was bearable back when the target didn’t drop when they went invis. That to me was a good period….it was kind of like a stealth counter. You knew you still had them targeted so you could react accordingly..

Stealth will not be overpowered AND cheap when there is a legitimate counter mechanic introduced to this game. Until then every profession that can abuse stealth has a hug leg up on the rest of us

There is no counter for stealth? Really? So when your opponent stealths, you just sit there with your thumb up your kitten and give up? Do you know how many classes and how many weapons have cleave attacks? How common AoE is? That you can apply conditions on someone before they stealth, causing them to bleed out. Or have you noticed that when a person stealths, they don’t magically teleport 5000 yards away? Just literally attack in the direction the enemy stealths. Did you know that many stealth skills have a cast time anyways (Mesmer Elite: 1 3/4 seconds cast time. There’s cast time on a theif’s heal.).

Did you know that stealth lasts on average for about 3-5 seconds and that if you can’t do anything else because your mind has literally blown up from amazement, you can easily pop protection, put up invulnerability, dodge, make distance from where the enemy stealthed, put up retaliation, put up aegis, or do literally anything that ups your defense? Because this game is dynamic and the combat in this game is dynamic so if you expect to just sit in offensive mode and not have to actually THINK, then you’re going to have a bad time and make yourself look stupid. So excuse me and all of the rest of us that don’t want GW2 to be about mindless guardians and warriors spinning around with greatswords (no offense intended.) and would actually enjoy interesting mechanics.

Defintion of cheap=Op amongst average players.

many abilities are easily countered by experienced and knowledgeable players, but in the realm of hotjoin or low end tourny players these abilities rule.

Idk how much of an issue this is, sometimes if it contributes to detering a casual user base , it can be a bit of an issue.

Also, no offense, thieves are by NO means weak. But they are NOT overpowered. What they are is , like mesmers, annoying to fight.

mesmers, MIGHT be slightly op.
I play main mesmer and thief mainly so haha , but i can admit that the mesmers ultimate is a TAD op. and portal is very annoying i wish sometimes they made it less effective in tpvp so it wasnt mandatory.

Dee Jay.2460:

Heartseeker is the only thing I’d consider “cheap” in this context and that’s because it quite literally is cheap.

3 Initiative for a 450 range leap, auto-targeting, leap-finisher and over 5000+ damage.

The fact that you can spam it makes it seem even cheaper.

Stealth is fine in principle, although culling is not.

This. As soon as you’re below 50% health all you hear is the dreaded whoosh woosh sound of a HS spamming thief being on your toe. All the “just dodge roll lol” posts are useless because when you’re on low health you probably allready used up your dodges. And you can’t even run because HS is a kitten heatseeking missile without player input.

It either needs a cooldown (It’s supposed to be an execute) or lose the gap closer or cost way more initiative. A thief can spam WAY more HS than you can dodge.

Aether McLoud.1975:

Dee Jay.2460:

Heartseeker is the only thing I’d consider “cheap” in this context and that’s because it quite literally is cheap.

3 Initiative for a 450 range leap, auto-targeting, leap-finisher and over 5000+ damage.

The fact that you can spam it makes it seem even cheaper.

Stealth is fine in principle, although culling is not.

This. As soon as you’re below 50% health all you hear is the dreaded whoosh woosh sound of a HS spamming thief being on your toe. All the “just dodge roll lol” posts are useless because when you’re on low health you probably allready used up your dodges. And you can’t even run because HS is a kitten heatseeking missile without player input.

It either needs a cooldown (It’s supposed to be an execute) or lose the gap closer or cost way more initiative. A thief can spam WAY more HS than you can dodge.

Heh – the thing here that needs changed it the auto-facing on HS. Note, it’s not just Thieves and HS. As a guy what mains Mesmer, I’m ok with the auto-facing on Blurred Frenzy also going the way of the dodo. We’re a “skill-based” game, yes? Screw auto-facing, if yer not pointed at the enemy, then why should that move hit? The only logical way around that, is ground-zero targeted AoE, which is a different animal.

Turbo Whale.1738:

Raijinn.9065:

I amazed this hasn’t been stated yet in this manner.

Steath is overpowered AND cheap

Reason being?

There is no counter for stealth

You heard it, the thief can land all the damage and get hit all they want but they won’t appear. There are no anti stealth fields, you can’t get lucky and hit them with some kind of attack and reveal them. Stealth to me was bearable back when the target didn’t drop when they went invis. That to me was a good period….it was kind of like a stealth counter. You knew you still had them targeted so you could react accordingly..

Stealth will not be overpowered AND cheap when there is a legitimate counter mechanic introduced to this game. Until then every profession that can abuse stealth has a hug leg up on the rest of us

There is no counter for stealth? Really? So when your opponent stealths, you just sit there with your thumb up your kitten and give up? Do you know how many classes and how many weapons have cleave attacks? How common AoE is? That you can apply conditions on someone before they stealth, causing them to bleed out. Or have you noticed that when a person stealths, they don’t magically teleport 5000 yards away? Just literally attack in the direction the enemy stealths. Did you know that many stealth skills have a cast time anyways (Mesmer Elite: 1 3/4 seconds cast time. There’s cast time on a theif’s heal.).

Did you know that stealth lasts on average for about 3-5 seconds and that if you can’t do anything else because your mind has literally blown up from amazement, you can easily pop protection, put up invulnerability, dodge, make distance from where the enemy stealthed, put up retaliation, put up aegis, or do literally anything that ups your defense? Because this game is dynamic and the combat in this game is dynamic so if you expect to just sit in offensive mode and not have to actually THINK, then you’re going to have a bad time and make yourself look stupid. So excuse me and all of the rest of us that don’t want GW2 to be about mindless guardians and warriors spinning around with greatswords (no offense intended.) and would actually enjoy interesting mechanics.

All those words and you didn’t post 1 COUNTER to stealth. Naming a bunch of attacks that not even every class has is not a counter. I never said anything about being able to do absolutely nothing and twitting thumbs while they are invis. The fact is anything you attempt while the thief is stealthed is shooting in the dark…..but of course you have X-ray vision right?

Nothing you stated changes the fact that there is no LEGITIMATE STEALTH COUNTERING MECHANIC IMPLEMENTED IN THIS GAME. Just because the players came up with a bunch of makeshift tactics in no way means there’s a counter to stealth.

I know you love your stealth on your thief, but realize other players are at a disadvantage because there’s no counter like I said. My engineer doesn’t have cleave attacks, channeled abilities, and you can walk right out of an aoe from grenades as they soar through the air. Fail defense failed

Oh dear, another “thief is so op” thread. Heartseeker only damages MORE than an autoattack after 25% hp is reached. Its really big I admit, but its not a skill you can just spam and win. Nope, sorry guys. Before that is the same to nothing to use it (bah, it wastes initiative).

Stealth even in WoW is the same as here. You enter in a 2v2 against 2 rogues and the battle starts when they decide to appear from a backstab. And there’s no more counter than spamming aoes and praying to hit them. Same when they go invi again.

Stealth is the defense of the thief, as the elementalist has 20 skills to heal dodge run jump and do 3 backflips (although requires clearly lots more skill than the thief heh), the mesmer has its clones and also invi, the guardian has lots of utilities and shields and armor, warrior has kittening 5 secs of invulnerability (and toughness as well), and i still havent played much ranger engi and necro to talk about them. But i’m pretty sure they have their own defense mechanisms also.

So, is there really a problem? Stealth is the base defense of the thief, as for the elementalist having healing and cc’s and all those skills it has to survive.

Raijinn.9065:

Turbo Whale.1738:

Raijinn.9065:

I amazed this hasn’t been stated yet in this manner.

Steath is overpowered AND cheap

Reason being?

There is no counter for stealth

You heard it, the thief can land all the damage and get hit all they want but they won’t appear. There are no anti stealth fields, you can’t get lucky and hit them with some kind of attack and reveal them. Stealth to me was bearable back when the target didn’t drop when they went invis. That to me was a good period….it was kind of like a stealth counter. You knew you still had them targeted so you could react accordingly..

Stealth will not be overpowered AND cheap when there is a legitimate counter mechanic introduced to this game. Until then every profession that can abuse stealth has a hug leg up on the rest of us

There is no counter for stealth? Really? So when your opponent stealths, you just sit there with your thumb up your kitten and give up? Do you know how many classes and how many weapons have cleave attacks? How common AoE is? That you can apply conditions on someone before they stealth, causing them to bleed out. Or have you noticed that when a person stealths, they don’t magically teleport 5000 yards away? Just literally attack in the direction the enemy stealths. Did you know that many stealth skills have a cast time anyways (Mesmer Elite: 1 3/4 seconds cast time. There’s cast time on a theif’s heal.).

Did you know that stealth lasts on average for about 3-5 seconds and that if you can’t do anything else because your mind has literally blown up from amazement, you can easily pop protection, put up invulnerability, dodge, make distance from where the enemy stealthed, put up retaliation, put up aegis, or do literally anything that ups your defense? Because this game is dynamic and the combat in this game is dynamic so if you expect to just sit in offensive mode and not have to actually THINK, then you’re going to have a bad time and make yourself look stupid. So excuse me and all of the rest of us that don’t want GW2 to be about mindless guardians and warriors spinning around with greatswords (no offense intended.) and would actually enjoy interesting mechanics.

All those words and you didn’t post 1 COUNTER to stealth. Naming a bunch of attacks that not even every class has is not a counter. I never said anything about being able to do absolutely nothing and twitting thumbs while they are invis. The fact is anything you attempt while the thief is stealthed is shooting in the dark…..but of course you have X-ray vision right?

Nothing you stated changes the fact that there is no LEGITIMATE STEALTH COUNTERING MECHANIC IMPLEMENTED IN THIS GAME. Just because the players came up with a bunch of makeshift tactics in no way means there’s a counter to stealth.

I know you love your stealth on your thief, but realize other players are at a disadvantage because there’s no counter like I said. My engineer doesn’t have cleave attacks, channeled abilities, and you can walk right out of an aoe from grenades as they soar through the air. Fail defense failed

Seems all my respones end up over that 5001 limit so let me tl;dr in multiple ways.
What is the counter to invulnerability? My thief does not have an elixir or Mist form to make me invulnerable while I heal. And as a S/P thief I’d like one. No stealth skills break stun. No stealth skills let you walk through a bunch of wards unharmed doing your “can’t touch this dance”.
The difference is Stealth is frequent and invulnerability is not.
What a shame, if only there wasn’t protection to further mitigate damage, and the thief removing that boon only via Flanking strike or a thief trait. Shame it’s all melee and counteracted by anti-melee options such as knockbacks which last I recall, Engineer’s are pretty kitten good at doing.

Cry my a river. I’ve got 1 stealth skill on my bar, 3s of stealth every 30s or spend 12 (aka, All) initiative to get it every 10s. I’ve seen Engineer’s Stealth flippin more than me, pets, Mesmers, Ranger’s with pigs, other thieves. Zero kittens were given.
Lol Stealth, You know what I do when a thief Stealths? I create distance I drop pbaoe blind, I go behind cover if he’s a P/D. If he’s escaping? I stay on the point. If I want to chase, I see how far he’s traveled in the past while. If I’m quick I just hit Inf strike for the semi aoe Immobilize before he can get away. There’s no direct counter to Blurred frenzy, there’s no more direct counter to Endure Pain than there is stealth. More skills do damage to a stealthed foe than someone under Endure Pain or Protect me.
You’ve got better control than I do, wtf are you doing?

Raijinn.9065:

Turbo Whale.1738:

Raijinn.9065:

I amazed this hasn’t been stated yet in this manner.

Steath is overpowered AND cheap

Reason being?

There is no counter for stealth

You heard it, the thief can land all the damage and get hit all they want but they won’t appear. There are no anti stealth fields, you can’t get lucky and hit them with some kind of attack and reveal them. Stealth to me was bearable back when the target didn’t drop when they went invis. That to me was a good period….it was kind of like a stealth counter. You knew you still had them targeted so you could react accordingly..

Stealth will not be overpowered AND cheap when there is a legitimate counter mechanic introduced to this game. Until then every profession that can abuse stealth has a hug leg up on the rest of us

There is no counter for stealth? Really? So when your opponent stealths, you just sit there with your thumb up your kitten and give up? Do you know how many classes and how many weapons have cleave attacks? How common AoE is? That you can apply conditions on someone before they stealth, causing them to bleed out. Or have you noticed that when a person stealths, they don’t magically teleport 5000 yards away? Just literally attack in the direction the enemy stealths. Did you know that many stealth skills have a cast time anyways (Mesmer Elite: 1 3/4 seconds cast time. There’s cast time on a theif’s heal.).

Did you know that stealth lasts on average for about 3-5 seconds and that if you can’t do anything else because your mind has literally blown up from amazement, you can easily pop protection, put up invulnerability, dodge, make distance from where the enemy stealthed, put up retaliation, put up aegis, or do literally anything that ups your defense? Because this game is dynamic and the combat in this game is dynamic so if you expect to just sit in offensive mode and not have to actually THINK, then you’re going to have a bad time and make yourself look stupid. So excuse me and all of the rest of us that don’t want GW2 to be about mindless guardians and warriors spinning around with greatswords (no offense intended.) and would actually enjoy interesting mechanics.

All those words and you didn’t post 1 COUNTER to stealth. Naming a bunch of attacks that not even every class has is not a counter. I never said anything about being able to do absolutely nothing and twitting thumbs while they are invis. The fact is anything you attempt while the thief is stealthed is shooting in the dark…..but of course you have X-ray vision right?

Nothing you stated changes the fact that there is no LEGITIMATE STEALTH COUNTERING MECHANIC IMPLEMENTED IN THIS GAME. Just because the players came up with a bunch of makeshift tactics in no way means there’s a counter to stealth.

I know you love your stealth on your thief, but realize other players are at a disadvantage because there’s no counter like I said. My engineer doesn’t have cleave attacks, channeled abilities, and you can walk right out of an aoe from grenades as they soar through the air. Fail defense failed

Everything I mentioned was a counter to stealth. You say that cleaving/AoE is shooting in the dark? That’s why you have a brain, though. You’re supposed to think. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been able to down thieves while they are invisible without even binding them. Just by anticipating their moves.

Your engineer has an AOE STUN FOR GOD’S SAKE. Every single engineer in the whole entirety of Tyria brings the care package elite. You have bomb kit. You have big ol’ bomb. You have grenades. You have AoE immobilize with pistol. And like I said, you don’t have to be offensive to counter stealth. Engineers have shield offhand, a shield in the crowbar toolkit, access to 4 boons from drinking a potion and more. And lol @ “you can walk right out of an aoe from grenades as they soar through the air”. Really? Are you trying to snipe down a thief from 1500 range? Casting grenades within 300 range is nearly instant, especially after that grenade projectile speed buff a while back.

I am unable to believe that you STILL claim there is no counter to stealth. The only reason those “reveal thief” type skills were available in other games because thieves had permanent stealth. Here, stealth only lasts for 3-5 seconds!

And just so you know, I don’t play a thief. Since you accuse me of being a thief just because I’m defending their core-mechanic, it seems to me that you are attacking stealth just to hurt thieves.

I’m fine with stealth. What I have a problem with is the insane duration that can be achieved, the 150% movement speed while stealthed, and the low cooldowns on stealthing skills.

When stealth becomes something that lasts a long time and is easy to keep getting, stealth becomes more than “I’m invisible”. Stealth becomes “I control the battle”.

Have you ever fought a good Thief? Toughest opponents in the game.

The reality of stealth is that it gives a massive amount of benefits to you even if you’re bad, and at the same time there’s a colossal skill ceiling.

Current implementation is both cheap and OP.

Since OP has framed the question in terms of fighting games, I thought this video might be relevant:

http://youtu.be/tehc8UP--VE?t=3m01s

The video talks about a fighting game which had to be completely rebalanced around a single character because that character was really really powerful and strategies revolved around that single character.

Another point raised is that “a combination of a team is what you might want to consider broken”. In a team-based game, a different perspective could be that certain team setups are broken and gives a gigantic advantage to the team using it. So rather than a single character being broken, it may be certain characters working together that are broken.

Video also mentions some opinions on what makes a broken vs powerful character:

- How safe are they when they do stuff
- How punishable are they on their moves
- Ease of playability, how long it takes to learn

Mesmers are the real problem, they are very cheap. They just run, put down clones, stealth, heal, clones, run, clones, heal, stealth, clones etc. until you finally die. >_<

^Please god no… Mesmers have one of the highest skill caps in the game… Can only put down 3 illusions at a time most of which do junk damage unless its a phantasm but they are way easy to spot. Shatters can be avoided… Nothin more annoying as a mes when you use mindwrack on someone and they dodge it soooo frustrating… Definitely not cheap at all. You know what is cheap players coming to forums and whining about the difference between OP and Cheap…

yes there is a difference.
Thief is cheap because it is cheap to learn. it requires almost no time investment. just about any build will get kills with dagger mainhand.

I have been killed by obvious noobs trying to hide their thief behind an obstacle… pop the thieves guild elite and HS HS HS HS

Is it OP? IMHO i dont think so. i think its powerful but from what i have seen not more so than any others.

i do find thieves less frustrating to play then ele’s or warriors.

OP would be mesmer time warp (10 second aoe quickness with no drawback)
Cheap would be the elementalist lightning rush and how it isn’t affected by movement hindering skills (except immobilize).