Issues I have with players spamming Quickness
I had a 6900~ character post typed up. They didn’t let me post it. So I’ll just give you the TL;DR I had typed:
- Game has been out 2 weeks. Balance is not known yet.
- Top players don’t necessarily run Quickness.
- Both sides have options in and out of the situations in both 1v1 and 5v5 engagements.
Guild Wars 2 isn’t easy to solve. It is not simply DPS-in vs DPS-out. You need 1v1 balance to show balance by induction to 5v5. Beating Quickness builds 1v1 are fairly trivial. More formally, both sides have options to bait different things. In a 5v5 situation if 3 Quickness builds chain one person down, it is likely they sacrificed a lot to do that. Between immobilizes, hard CC, healing, and retalliation there are a lot of ways to anti-quickness. This intuition shows us that the game is deep and competitive.
That was the best summary I could give, and it’s still wordy. -_- Anyways, here is a fairly straight forward paragraph from the original post:
“For example, I’m fighting a Quickness Warrior running Bull Rush/Frenzy and wants to get into Hundred Blades, swap to Axe/Shield, etc; It’s the cookie-cutter build going around at the moment. Literally all I have to do is dodge roll the Bull Rush. If that wiffs and he pops Frenzy (which almost every warrior does during the rush itself), then not only did I get out of his stun, but he is also standing there like a fool taking 50% more damage. However, he could bait your dodge rolls and then full combo you. This back and forth (because this conversation literally could go on forever with the mixups) is what gives us the intuition that a game is competitive and deep. Note that I’m not using the word balanced here because that intuition is not sufficient to say that.”
See the quickness buff.
Stun
Burst
??
Take your free glory.
You have nothing to fear but Fear itself
See the quickness buff.
Stun
Burst
??
Take your free glory.
or you can do what he die
See the quickness buff.
Get owned.
Make a thread about how he’s quitting GW2 until they remove quickness.
That’s only 3 steps so I guess it won out.
Lysander – Anvil Rock
I had a 6900~ character post typed up. They didn’t let me post it. So I’ll just give you the TL;DR I had typed:
- Game has been out 2 weeks. Balance is not known yet.
- Top players don’t necessarily run Quickness.
- Both sides have options in and out of the situations in both 1v1 and 5v5 engagements.Guild Wars 2 isn’t easy to solve. It is not simply DPS-in vs DPS-out. You need 1v1 balance to show balance by induction to 5v5. Beating Quickness builds 1v1 are fairly trivial. More formally, both sides have options to bait different things. In a 5v5 situation if 3 Quickness builds chain one person down, it is likely they sacrificed a lot to do that. Between immobilizes, hard CC, healing, and retalliation there are a lot of ways to anti-quickness. This intuition shows us that the game is deep and competitive.
That was the best summary I could give, and it’s still wordy. -_- Anyways, here is a fairly straight forward paragraph from the original post:
“For example, I’m fighting a Quickness Warrior running Bull Rush/Frenzy and wants to get into Hundred Blades, swap to Axe/Shield, etc; It’s the cookie-cutter build going around at the moment. Literally all I have to do is dodge roll the Bull Rush. If that wiffs and he pops Frenzy (which almost every warrior does during the rush itself), then not only did I get out of his stun, but he is also standing there like a fool taking 50% more damage. However, he could bait your dodge rolls and then full combo you. This back and forth (because this conversation literally could go on forever with the mixups) is what gives us the intuition that a game is competitive and deep. Note that I’m not using the word balanced here because that intuition is not sufficient to say that.”
I appreciate you taking the time to post. But that doesn’t address the issue at all, which is game balance.
Let me explain where Quickness breaks the game. You have two types of damage, burst damage and sustained damage. The game is balanced around these two damage types whilst factoring in survivability. You can spec to have decent survivability and sustained damage – this is balanced. You can also spec to have decent burst but low survivability – this is also balanced. What quickness does is turn someone with decent survivability and sustained damage, to also have very decent burst if timed right. And we all no what it does to glass canon builds… No need for me to go there.
Quickness directly un-balances the game, sometimes to a devastating degree. In a game that is aiming to be an e-sport, a game mechanic that messes with balance as much as Quickness does, has no place in the game at all.
How any rational person could even try and defend Quickness is beyond me, well they’re certainly not being rational that’s for sure.
(edited by Sweeet.8127)
One thing that would help IMO would be a more noticeable particle effect when quickness is applied, for enemies around you that you dont have directly targeted you may have no idea that thief or warrior just popped a quickness buff.
I had a 6900~ character post typed up. They didn’t let me post it. So I’ll just give you the TL;DR I had typed:
- Game has been out 2 weeks. Balance is not known yet.
- Top players don’t necessarily run Quickness.
- Both sides have options in and out of the situations in both 1v1 and 5v5 engagements.Guild Wars 2 isn’t easy to solve. It is not simply DPS-in vs DPS-out. You need 1v1 balance to show balance by induction to 5v5. Beating Quickness builds 1v1 are fairly trivial. More formally, both sides have options to bait different things. In a 5v5 situation if 3 Quickness builds chain one person down, it is likely they sacrificed a lot to do that. Between immobilizes, hard CC, healing, and retalliation there are a lot of ways to anti-quickness. This intuition shows us that the game is deep and competitive.
That was the best summary I could give, and it’s still wordy. -_- Anyways, here is a fairly straight forward paragraph from the original post:
“For example, I’m fighting a Quickness Warrior running Bull Rush/Frenzy and wants to get into Hundred Blades, swap to Axe/Shield, etc; It’s the cookie-cutter build going around at the moment. Literally all I have to do is dodge roll the Bull Rush. If that wiffs and he pops Frenzy (which almost every warrior does during the rush itself), then not only did I get out of his stun, but he is also standing there like a fool taking 50% more damage. However, he could bait your dodge rolls and then full combo you. This back and forth (because this conversation literally could go on forever with the mixups) is what gives us the intuition that a game is competitive and deep. Note that I’m not using the word balanced here because that intuition is not sufficient to say that.”
I appreciate you taking the time to post. But that doesn’t address the issue at all, which is game balance.
Let me explain where Quickness breaks the game. You have two types of damage, burst damage and sustained damage. The game is balanced around these two damage types whilst factoring in survivability. You can spec to have decent survivability and sustained damage – this is balanced. You can also spec to have decent burst but low survivability – this is also balanced. What quickness does is turn someone with decent survivability and sustained damage, to also have very decent burst if timed right. And we all no what it does to glass canon builds… No need for me to go there.
Quickness directly un-balances the game, sometimes to a devastating degree. In a game that is aiming to be an e-sport, a game mechanic that messes with balance as much as Quickness does, has no place in the game at all.
How any rational person could even try and defend Quickness is beyond me, well they’re certainly not being rational that’s for sure.
Well, I addressed this in a very formal way in my original post. The problem is you’re not approaching balance formally. The idea isn’t that some philosophy is balanced because of X Y or Z. Balance is formally defined as regardless of the initial state of the game, the outcome (formally this would be the size of the outcome set) remains 50/50. Nothing about Quickness inherently breaks this.
In other words, game balance does not depend on your views or philosophy about a mechanic. It also does not depend on whether or not burst vs sustain is balanced, etc. The idea that Quickness creates intrinsic imbalance is fallacious.
An excerpt from my original post:
“Any good computer science major should understand that games are deterministic and therefor provably solvable. However, that is a formality for a presentation, not a forum post. That being said, you can not simply say two weeks after launch that your feelings on a matter justify changing the game”
One thing that would help IMO would be a more noticeable particle effect when quickness is applied, for enemies around you that you dont have directly targeted you may have no idea that thief or warrior just popped a quickness buff.
I second this.
Well, I addressed this in a very formal way in my original post. The problem is you’re not approaching balance formally. The idea isn’t that some philosophy is balanced because of X Y or Z. Balance is formally defined as regardless of the initial state of the game, the outcome (formally this would be the size of the outcome set) remains 50/50. Nothing about Quickness inherently breaks this.
In other words, game balance does not depend on your views or philosophy about a mechanic. It also does not depend on whether or not burst vs sustain is balanced, etc. The idea that Quickness creates intrinsic imbalance is fallacious.
An excerpt from my original post:
“Any good computer science major should understand that games are deterministic and therefor provably solvable. However, that is a formality for a presentation, not a forum post. That being said, you can not simply say two weeks after launch that your feelings on a matter justify changing the game”
Nowhere did I say it creates intrinsic imbalance, kind of putting words in my mouth there. What I have done is made out it has the potential to greatly imbalance the game.
You could have two teams, exact same specs and professions, exact same skill levels. One team takes a form of Quickness for each profession, the other does not. I can guarantee you the team timing their Quickness at the appropriate times would beat the other hands down every time. The damage potential whilst using Quickness is INSANE if used on someone who is unable to avoid it. And yes, there will always be times when you are unable to avoid it.
There is no philosophy, there is only first hand experience. I have tried a Pistol Whip Thief, a 100B Warrior and a Crossfire spamming Ranger, and they all led me to the same conclusion – damage potential whilst using Quickness is massively out of control. There is no other way of looking at it, no philosophical debate, just out of control damage potential that needs to either be removed or toned down about 75%.
Ergo, Quickness is indeed unbalancing the game, not intrinsically, but through its potential to cause MASSIVE uncontrollable spike damage from just a single profession. It’s a chaotic system that has no place in competitive PvP.
Nowhere did I say it creates intrinsic imbalance, kind of putting words in my mouth there. What I have done is made out it has the potential to greatly imbalance the game.
You could have two teams, exact same specs and professions, exact same skill levels. One team takes a form of Quickness for each profession, the other does not. I can guarantee you the team timing their Quickness at the appropriate times would beat the other hands down every time. The damage potential whilst using Quickness is INSANE if used on someone who is unable to avoid it. And yes, there will always be times when you are unable to avoid it.
There is no philosophy, there is only first hand experience. I have tried a Pistol Whip Thief, a 100B Warrior and a Crossfire spamming Ranger, and they all led me to the same conclusion – damage potential whilst using Quickness is massively out of control. There is no other way of looking at it, no philosophical debate, just out of control damage potential that needs to either be removed or toned down about 75%.
Ergo, Quickness is indeed unbalancing the game, not intrinsically, but through its potential to cause MASSIVE uncontrollable spike damage from just a single profession. It’s a chaotic system that has no place in competitive PvP.
What you are saying is intrinsic though. You’re saying the fact that it is a mechanic and can create massive damage spikes, that imbalances the game — in other words, it is something intrinsic with Quickness. Please do correct me if I’m wrong, though.
Your example is not accurate for a laundry list of reasons, though. Guild Wars 2 is more than a DPS-in/DPS-out act in balancing. The reality is both sides have a lot of options with regards to handling damage, both mitigating and dealing. Do I agree with you that Quickness is an excellent way to deal damage? Of course. However, to say it being able to burst the amount of damage that it does creates imbalance is a reach, at best.
The reality is the level of play is still very low and the game is not well figured out. Even in this state of play, Quickness is simply not winning people games (exclusively). If you look at top teams and top builds, they do not run strictly Quickness builds.
Do you find it frustrating? Obviously. Is that valid? Of course. You’re certainly entitled to your opinion. Is it ground to change a game mechanic that many, many players disagree with you on? Absolutely not.
Like I’ve said, give the game some time to evolve. When we see monthly tournaments come about, when we see eSports pick it up, etc… We will get to observe how top-level players use and handle Quickness as a mechanic. Until which point, I whole-heartedly support ArenaNet’s decision to leave it untouched.
Keep quickness but give it a chance to fumble.
Team Focus
Ranger
Ranger
Inb4 quickness insta gibbers come in to defend themselves.
Oh wait… too late
Inb4 quickness insta gibbers come in to defend themselves.
Oh wait… too late
>.>
Notice that I’m not actually saying Quickness is balanced. I’m just saying it’s too early to determine that. And evidence is pointing to it not being out of balance, due to how few of competitive teams are running Quickness.
Conversely, I think the teams I have seen NOT run it are doing so because everyone is specing anti-Quickness atm. So we’re just in the 3rd week meta… it’s to be expected.
Let me explain where Quickness breaks the game. You have two types of damage, burst damage and sustained damage. The game is balanced around these two damage types whilst factoring in survivability.
Let’s just stop right here for a second. The game is not “balanced around these two damage types”. The game is actually balanced around the same things we’ve been hearing about since the game’s release, namely damage, support, and control. Yes, sustained and burst damage need to be balanced but they are two halves of a single element in the larger equation for balance. There are scores of ways to deal with quickness glass cannons.
Let’s just stop right here for a second. The game is not “balanced around these two damage types”. The game is actually balanced around the same things we’ve been hearing about since the game’s release, namely damage, support, and control. Yes, sustained and burst damage need to be balanced but they are two halves of a single element in the larger equation for balance. There are scores of ways to deal with quickness glass cannons.
This. However, I do think that balancing around discrete metrics is somewhat flawed. The ideas I have read suggest to me that ArenaNet is taking an option-based approach to balancing. For example, it’s not about the fact that Hundred Blades does X damage. It’s that it does X damage, and they have Y options to get in, the average opponent has Z options to get out. So, given average human reaction time, what is the expected outcome of a situation? etc.
I don’t think it is as simple as saying “burst damage vs sustain damage, balance!” This is a highly skill-based game with options in and out of most situations. We need to give it time.
If you’re here for the competitiveness you’re in the right place. People are very competitive, already I’ve seen people discussing builds and theorycrafting the best setups. I’ve even seen people in heart of the mists discussing the merits of various sigils. SPVP queues are full up, tourneys are fairly quick (although there are some people that miss the ready button sometimes) and WvW seems to heat up every evening. Sir, if you were looking for the competitive spirit, I would think you could find it in any place designed for that spirit in Tyria.
Now, if you’re here for fairness and balance – you’re in the wrong place. You’re better off in a game of pong. That’s a statement taken to the extreme, not a troll. What I mean by that is, you don’t hear top athletes complaining about stuff being unfair. Mr. Pistorius, the illustrious paralympian, made a comment about the winner of a race he was in. How the person’s running blades were supposedly giving him an unfair advantage. What did he do next? He apologized because it was not in the spirit of the sport. A sport that is highly competitive I might add.
Before you jump the gun on saying that there’s arbiters and organizations that govern the fairness of the Games – let me preempt you in saying that in GW2 that’s ArenaNet. If they consider the state of the game “balanced enough” that’s what you’ll have to live with. If you want to win more, you play what’s most powerful. If you’re willing to lose more but have more comfort, you play what you like. That’s how PvP has worked, works and will continue to work.
Top players in Dota 2 and LoL have preferred roles / champs, but they don’t complain when they can’t play their top one. They simply play what’s the best for the situation, the team and the meta. As a result, you may see some HS spam players and some quickness spam. I’d suggest taking the OPness of that as a cue for you to see if those builds are worth persuing yourself. You can start a char and run one of these builds today if you wanted.
Quickness directly un-balances the game, sometimes to a devastating degree. In a game that is aiming to be an e-sport, a game mechanic that messes with balance as much as Quickness does, has no place in the game at all.
How any rational person could even try and defend Quickness is beyond me, well they’re certainly not being rational that’s for sure.
Quickness is not unbalanced. Its tactical.
The downside to quickness is that the player using it cannot heal, recieve heals, or benefit from regens, or defensive abilities such as invuls, or (stealth I am assumng)
A character runnign quickness is rawly naked to any incoming damage, and if they triggrer quickness and get jumped on by an opponent unawares, even after the 4s is over, it takes another 2-4 secs to recover, which often means, they are dead.
Learn what quickness does.
Quickness feels like a 1 shot mechanic in a game that shouldn’t have 1 shotting.
And please don’t try to tell me no one has died in hasted hundred blades or pistol whip. Just because you can dodge it or otherwise avoid it doesn’t mean it should be there.
Imagine playing a fighting game where only 2 or so out of 10 playable characters had a 1 hit one kill move. Even if you could dodge/block it, that doesn’t make it balanced. Which is why such abilities don’t exist in extended combat pvp.
Quickness feels like a 1 shot mechanic in a game that shouldn’t have 1 shotting.
And please don’t try to tell me no one has died in hasted hundred blades or pistol whip. Just because you can dodge it or otherwise avoid it doesn’t mean it should be there.
Imagine playing a fighting game where only 2 or so out of 10 playable characters had a 1 hit one kill move. Even if you could dodge/block it, that doesn’t make it balanced. Which is why such abilities don’t exist in extended combat pvp.
This has very little to do with balance. Several fighting games have high-risk, high-reward outcomes. Street Fighter as a case study is perfect for this. Characters like Gief can output massive damage, but has to work very hard to get in, especially against characters like Ryu.
Comparing cross-genre games mechanically is a bit silly, so I’ll refrain from dragging that out. However, the point remains that it’s not simply a matter of saying, “This is a 1 shot. Obviously doesn’t belong.” The way to approach this is to say…
- How do they get into it?
- How do I get out of it?
- How much can they get out of it?
- How much can I punish them for failing?
Questions like that lead to balance discussion. A poster above mentioned all the negative effects of Quickness; this is the start of a healthy conversation on the balance of the mechanic. As player skill progresses Quickness will not only become a method by which players punish others, but by which they get punished for.
As with any sufficiently competitive game, there is counter play to it — that much is obvious given the feedback from this topic alone. On top of that, there is a good amount of risk and reward associated with it.
Both of these facts give the intuition that Quickness is in balance and will continue to evolve as player skill does. That is the sign of a healthy, competitive game, imo.
The negative effects of quickness are largely null and void. In most cases the damage recipient is cc’d or otherwise unable to attack back, in which case taking increased damage for a few seconds doesn’t mean anything when you aren’t getting hit. And likewise, having your dodge bar not refill when you don’t need to dodge isn’t detrimental at all.
How hard is the quickness instagib to pull off? Not hard at all. No lengthy combo chains or buff prerequisites are required. How much do you get out of it? An insta gib kill as long as it lands. Ect.
The risk vs reward is all off. Double Dagger Ele’s for example have to at least set up a combo chain over a few seconds with the possibility of multiple attacks getting blocked or otherwise not landing to do similar damage. While other classes can just pop quickness and hit 1 button with better results.
(edited by Awake.6017)
Many players are performing the following logic in their heads:
“I lose badly to a particular set of skills, therefore the game is wrong to allow it”
Instead, try:
“I lose badly to a particular set of skills, what can I do to prevent this?”
The negative effects of quickness are largely null and void. In most cases the damage recipient is cc’d or otherwise unable to attack back, in which case taking increased damage for a few seconds doesn’t mean anything when you aren’t getting hit. And likewise, having your dodge bar not refill when you don’t need to dodge isn’t detrimental at all.
How hard is the quickness instagib to pull off? Not hard at all. No lengthy combo chains or buff prerequisites are required. How much do you get out of it? An insta gib kill as long as it lands. Ect.
The risk vs reward is all off.
Most of this just isn’t true, though. Not only from a theoretical perspective, but from an anecdotal one as well.
Firstly, with purely the theory surrounding finite state outcomes, you have to understand that any change to the initial states makes an entirely new tree (potentially). So to dismiss the idea that these negatives have no affect on the outcome is a bit dismissive if you ask me.
Secondly, you go with this notion that it is or is not hard to pull off. You have to consider the builds and skill of players that you are up against. There are plenty of builds out there that will completely shut down Warrior’s insta-gib Quickness builds. Namely, the staple Ranger shortbow build that is floating around lately.
It isn’t just a matter of comparing them. If someone stands still, pressing 1 over and over again, and they lose to Quickness… is that balanced? Again, I’m not saying for sure Quickness is or is not balanced. It is just simply that it is a complex thing to analyze and there seems to be more on the side of balanced rather than imbalanced.
Many players are performing the following logic in their heads:
“I lose badly to a particular set of skills, therefore the game is wrong to allow it”
Instead, try:
“I lose badly to a particular set of skills, what can I do to prevent this?”
This. This x9001. I want to recruit this man.
The negative effects of quickness are largely null and void. In most cases the damage recipient is cc’d or otherwise unable to attack back, in which case taking increased damage for a few seconds doesn’t mean anything when you aren’t getting hit. And likewise, having your dodge bar not refill when you don’t need to dodge isn’t detrimental at all.
How hard is the quickness instagib to pull off? Not hard at all. No lengthy combo chains or buff prerequisites are required. How much do you get out of it? An insta gib kill as long as it lands. Ect.
The risk vs reward is all off. Double Dagger Ele’s for example have to at least set up a combo chain over a few seconds with the possibility of multiple attacks getting blocked or otherwise not landing to do similar damage. While other classes can just pop quickness and hit 1 button with better results.
This is not a 1v1 game. It is a 5v5 game. 1v1, nobody should be able to kill you with a quickness burst. In larger battles, you have teammates. If you instantly drop, either you made a mistake or your team did. And it’s much easier to blame the team than to blame yourself.
In a sense, GW2 is still very behind other games. It hasn’t even evolved yet to blaming teammates for everything that goes wrong, because people still think this is a 1v1 game. When the importance of the other nine players is recognized, then instead we will see complaints about baddie teammates.
Many players are performing the following logic in their heads:
“I lose badly to a particular set of skills, therefore the game is wrong to allow it”
Instead, try:
“I lose badly to a particular set of skills, what can I do to prevent this?”
This. This x9001. I want to recruit this man.
You have no idea how many times I’v evaded one Quickness abuser, through dodging or using stun breakers, to be hit my another player abusing the exact same mechanic…. Please, give us all a break. If you are honestly saying we should all save our stun breakers and dodges to only avoid players trying to abuse Quickness then that alone proves how broken the mechanic is. Quickness is NOT the only thing you have to dodge or stun break in this game. You know that, you know that all very well, yet you keep on making out “it’s too early to tell because it’s not rampant in top end sPvP yet”
Is wasn’t rampant in casual sPvP either, not until people started figuring out how effective it is. Now everyone and their grans are playing Quickness specs, it won’t be long until the same people figure out how effective it can be in Tournament play, then we’ll start seeing exactly what we’re seeing in casual sPvP, it’s only a matter of time .
Art:
The reality is you need to balance 1v1 to show balance for 5v5. This is called induction. From early dev blogs, you can see that ArenaNet is committed to this.
Sweeet:
You getting ganged up on is not the definition of imbalance. If you are fighting 2v1/3v1, your team should be out-manning them elsewhere. It’s not as simple as you’re boiling it down to be. The TL;DR for this whole thread is that this game is 3 weeks old. We can not speak accurately on balance. Give it time.
Art:
The reality is you need to balance 1v1 to show balance for 5v5. This is called induction. From early dev blogs, you can see that ArenaNet is committed to this.Sweeet:
You getting ganged up on is not the definition of imbalance. If you are fighting 2v1/3v1, your team should be out-manning them elsewhere. It’s not as simple as you’re boiling it down to be. The TL;DR for this whole thread is that this game is 3 weeks old. We can not speak accurately on balance. Give it time.
I think the problems go deeper than simply balancing the classes. See my post in the other quickness thread where I specifically explain why balancing 1v1s in this game by its very nature imbalances team games.
I think the problems go deeper than simply balancing the classes. See my post in the other quickness thread where I specifically explain why balancing 1v1s in this game by its very nature imbalances team games.
That is just simply not true. You can link me, and I will read it. However, I think that game designers are largely understanding that if your 1v1 is not sound, you will never have balance at any number greater, especially 5v5.
I think the problems go deeper than simply balancing the classes. See my post in the other quickness thread where I specifically explain why balancing 1v1s in this game by its very nature imbalances team games.
That is just simply not true. You can link me, and I will read it. However, I think that game designers are largely understanding that if your 1v1 is not sound, you will never have balance at any number greater, especially 5v5.
I think the problems go deeper than simply balancing the classes. See my post in the other quickness thread where I specifically explain why balancing 1v1s in this game by its very nature imbalances team games.
That is just simply not true. You can link me, and I will read it. However, I think that game designers are largely understanding that if your 1v1 is not sound, you will never have balance at any number greater, especially 5v5.
Well the thing is, I agree with you in general. 1 v 1 being balanced is a necessary condition for team fights being balanced, but I don’t think its a sufficient condition. I also believe that there are certain factors because of its unique design such that in this particular game balancing 1 v 1 almost intrinsically imbalances 5v5 and other team fights. I think its unique to GW2 because of some of the game mechanics.
Here is the post explaining it: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Am-I-the-only-one-who-thinks-Quickness-needs-to-be-removed/page/2#post75579
Well the thing is, I agree with you in general. 1 v 1 being balanced is a necessary condition for team fights being balanced, but I don’t think its a sufficient condition. I also believe that there are certain factors because of its unique design such that in this particular game balancing 1 v 1 almost intrinsically imbalances 5v5 and other team fights. I think its unique to GW2 because of some of the game mechanics.
Here is the post explaining it: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Am-I-the-only-one-who-thinks-Quickness-needs-to-be-removed/page/2#post75579
I think I’m in love with you for understanding and using those terms properly. I will be certain to read that after we finish running this. I do agree with you, it is most certainly not sufficient. However, it was merely a point of reference to say that, “1v1 Quickness is not that hot.”
Art:
The reality is you need to balance 1v1 to show balance for 5v5. This is called induction. From early dev blogs, you can see that ArenaNet is committed to this.Sweeet:
You getting ganged up on is not the definition of imbalance. If you are fighting 2v1/3v1, your team should be out-manning them elsewhere. It’s not as simple as you’re boiling it down to be. The TL;DR for this whole thread is that this game is 3 weeks old. We can not speak accurately on balance. Give it time.
Now you’re assuming I’m getting ganged up on, that was never the case nor did I say it was. I’m not talking about 2v1 or 3v1, I’m talking about high level competitive play in which you get the third round of a tournament, only to be scuppered by a team abusing Quickness to take you or a team mate out before you have time to react, or when you can’t react because you’ve been forced to blow your defensive cooldowns.
None of the guys I run with use Quickness, they too think it’s a cheesy game mechanic that has no place in competitive PvP. Yet every third round match we’ve been beaten in, has been because of a Warrior or Thief abusing it like there is no tomorrow.
You keep on trying to act like the problem doesn’t exist yet because the game is not even three weeks old. Well I’m here to tell you the problem does exist, and it’s not going to get any better. As a matter of fact it can only get worse, as more people realise the risk vs reward of using Quickness at the right time is far too lucrative not to take.
Yes top end teams are learning how to manage the noob teams who are trying to use Quickness, but when teams start jibbing people into using their defensive cooldowns and dodges, we’ll see just how powerful Quickness can be. Not that we don’t know already, we all know exactly how powerful Quickness can be…
You sound like an intelligent person, yet you are either unwilling to see how detrimental Quickness is for the game, or you lack the foresight to see the game would actually be better off without it. No one profession should be able to take someone from full health to nothing in a matter of seconds within a competitive PvP environment no matter what the circumstances. There is nothing competitive about one class gibing another, nor is it to be praised or balanced around.
You’ve also said, and I quote;
Notice that I’m not actually saying Quickness is balanced. I’m just saying it’s too early to determine that. And evidence is pointing to it not being out of balance, due to how few of competitive teams are running Quickness.
Conversely, I think the teams I have seen NOT run it are doing so because everyone is specing anti-Quickness atm. So we’re just in the 3rd week meta… it’s to be expected.
How exactly is it too early to determine that? How is the evidence pointing to the contrary?
You have an opinion, make your mind up for gods sake, either you think it’s fine the way it is, or you also see that it is a detriment to the game. Stop beating around the bush waiting for “metrics” that may never be reliable. Use that brain of yours and think about what Quickness allows a player to do in a competitive PvP environment, and ask yourself whether you think said burst from one profession in a matter of seconds has any place in competitive PvP. It’s not exactly a hard concept to grasp, it’s not like the game would fall over without it.
Well, do you think the game would be better off without Quickness, or do you think Quickness adds a level of competitive play unreachable without it? I’m eager to hear your actual thoughts on Quickness as a game changing mechanic.
(edited by Sweeet.8127)
Art:
The reality is you need to balance 1v1 to show balance for 5v5. This is called induction. From early dev blogs, you can see that ArenaNet is committed to this.Sweeet:
You getting ganged up on is not the definition of imbalance. If you are fighting 2v1/3v1, your team should be out-manning them elsewhere. It’s not as simple as you’re boiling it down to be. The TL;DR for this whole thread is that this game is 3 weeks old. We can not speak accurately on balance. Give it time.Now you’re assuming I’m getting ganged up on, that was never the case nor did I say it was. I’m not talking about 2v1 or 3v1, I’m talking about high level competitive play in which you get the third round of a tournament, only to be scuppered by a team abusing Quickness to take you or a team mate out before you have time to react, or when you can’t react because you’ve been forced to blow your defensive cooldowns.
None of the guys I run with use Quickness, they too think it’s a cheesy game mechanic that has no place in competitive PvP. Yet every third round match we’ve been beaten in, has been because of a Warrior or Thief abusing it like there is no tomorrow.
You keep on trying to act like the problem doesn’t exist yet because the game is not even three weeks old. Well I’m here to tell you the problem does exist, and it’s not going to get any better. As a matter of fact it can only get worse, as more people realise the risk vs reward of using Quickness at the right time is far too lucrative not to take.
Yes top end teams are learning how to manage the noob teams who are trying to use Quickness, but when teams starting jibbing people into using their defensive cooldowns and dodges, we’ll see just how powerful Quickness can be. Not that we don’t know already, we all know exactly how powerful Quickness can be…
You sound like an intelligent person, yet you are either unwilling to see how detrimental Quickness is for the game, or you lack the foresight to see the game would actually be better off without it. No one profession should be able to take someone from full health to nothing in a matter of seconds within a competitive PvP environment no matter what the circumstances. There is nothing competitive about one class gibing another, nor is it to be praised or balanced around.
You’ve also said, and I quote;
Notice that I’m not actually saying Quickness is balanced. I’m just saying it’s too early to determine that. And evidence is pointing to it not being out of balance, due to how few of competitive teams are running Quickness.
Conversely, I think the teams I have seen NOT run it are doing so because everyone is specing anti-Quickness atm. So we’re just in the 3rd week meta… it’s to be expected.
How exactly is it too early to determine that? How is the evidence pointing to the contrary?
You have an opinion, make your mind up for gods sake, either you think it’s fine the way it is, or you also see that it is a detriment to the game. Stop beating around the bush waiting for “metrics” that may never be reliable. Use that brain of yours and think about what Quickness allows a player to do in a competitive PvP environment, and ask yourself whether you think said burst from one profession in a matter of seconds has any place in competitive PvP. It’s not exactly a hard concept to grasp, it’s not like the game would fall over without it.
Well, do you think the game would be better off without Quickness, or do you think Quickness adds a level of competitive play unreachable without it? I’m eager to hear your actual thoughts on Quickness as a game changing mechanic.
As I’ve explained in the other quickness thread (its linked in my a recent post in this one), I don’t think the problem is with quickness, but with the overall way DPS synergizes with some overall game mechanics.
I gave the example of a Rifle Warrior build I use which is not a glass cannon, does not use quickness at all, and yet can hit for 17k in about 3 seconds.
So try to step back and recognize that the issue isn’t quickness, but something greater. Look, I’m with you in terms of the kind of PvP experience you’re looking for in the end, but I think focusing on quickness as THE obstacle to that is missing some other very important problems.
You sound like an intelligent person, yet you are either unwilling to see how detrimental Quickness is for the game, or you lack the foresight to see the game would actually be better off without it.
Instead of questioning his foresight compared to yours (and in the process sparing us of your self aggrandizement…), maybe you should just accept that there are people in the world who don’t agree with you. Just as much as there are people who do.
For the record, I fall into the former category and echo what an earlier poster said. The only change I could possible see for Quickness is that the duration would be extended while the actual boost is decreased. Removal? I can’t see it happening, if only because there’s intelligent and tactically cogent ways to deal with it if you exercise situational awareness of even a small modicum.
Mmm. It could be because my original post didn’t go through, but I’m fairly certain I covered use cases in even fights, in 1v1s, and in 1v Many.
In any case, I’ve stated my opinion more or less clearly: I do not think Quickness is out of balance. However, that is not to say it isn’t. What the latter part of that means is that we can not prove it. Balance is a very formal thing. You can literally prove balance, deterministically — in other words, game balance is not an opinion. Simply, we can just have intuitions to help us say if it is or isn’t.
Mmm. It could be because my original post didn’t go through, but I’m fairly certain I covered use cases in even fights, in 1v1s, and in 1v Many.
In any case, I’ve stated my opinion more or less clearly: I do not think Quickness is out of balance. However, that is not to say it isn’t. What the latter part of that means is that we can not prove it. Balance is a very formal thing. You can literally prove balance, deterministically — in other words, game balance is not an opinion. Simply, we can just have intuitions to help us say if it is or isn’t.
Well thanks for your opinion anyway, I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. My intuition through years of playing multiple MMO’s competitively tells me that the game would be better off without Quickness in its current state. I don’t think some form of Quickness would necessarily be a bad thing, but having some of the most powerful abilities in the game able to consistently perform at half their speed whilst outputting their full damage potential, is one game breaking mechanic I can’t see going unchecked for long.