Guild Wars 2

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAV8YlUmKO3eS6E/5Ex2DfuTe6VgsaPcJNhJA-TsAg0CnI4SxljLDXSuscNsYZxuAA

Ok well this is my glass cannon spec, if you need help how to use it whisper me ingame
Regards Jim.
I will work on a guide soon, just wanted to post this so thieves stop running annoying sustain s/d

and i would add:

if i’m playing a thief as a burst build ( finish weak opponents), wouldn’t i be better off with D/P rather than S/D ?

long story short:

S/D thieves are still not strong enough to be worthy: you’re not bringing anything to the table you wouldn’t bring with D/P or that couldn’t be brought ( with better results) by other classes.

They should buff sword sustained damage ( they’re actually going to do this in next patches, or at least they said they’re going to buff thief base damage) and create better sinergies within traits ( espcially sword ones, that are totally ABSENT), even more since S/D is pretty ini extensive, so you need tons of ini regen .

My role as sustained S/D is basically a duelist and zoner.
I try to zone someone on the edge of the teamfight and pressure him to the point he can’t retaliate. Extremely effective vs necro/hgh engies.
I feel a burst/dps S/D role would be playing more on the defensive side and punishing any ele that over extends and tries to have a go at your hgh/necro/etc.

The roles are far too different to be comparable.

Jumper.9482:

My role as sustained S/D is basically a duelist and zoner.
I try to zone someone on the edge of the teamfight and pressure him to the point he can’t retaliate. Extremely effective vs necro/hgh engies.
I feel a burst/dps S/D role would be playing more on the defensive side and punishing any ele that over extends and tries to have a go at your hgh/necro/etc.

The roles are far too different to be comparable.

actually what you do with your S/D thief ( pressuring the guy at the edge spamming AoEs) can be done ( and is effectively done, especially in open areas) with a D/P thief.

The point is that while a S/D thief relies on evades, a D/P thief relies on blinds, while having even more sustained damage ( altough single target).

Sword auto is slow and flanking strike animation is also slow to the point that a D/P thief spamming autos deals more damage than a S/D thief spamming flanking strike, with the added benefits of having HS when your opponent is low on HP and while also bringing burst + interrupts.

Moreover in your build you have no shortbow, so your effectiveness in team fights is equal to zero ( and your mobility is seriously hampered), mostly due to the fact you’re forced to pick the “ini on swap” trait since S/D is very ini expansive.

Overall the trade off is simply not there. S/D may be a good duelist build, but that’s about it ( bring an ele or a mesmer if you want a duelist, they bring so much more to the team).

Mrbig, why so much hate for sd?

It’s a completely different playstyle to dp, and your def selling it short

Jim is posting a build that’s a bit different, and will write a guide and all your doing is commenting on how awesome dp is, and that he should play another class

Here’s a hot tip.. MOST of us have played dp for hundreds, if not thousands of games, we are well aware of the capabilities of dp

Big dismissed the exact same trait investment when I suggested it earlier this month, Imo it was the best trait spec for S/D pre-patch and remains one of the best afterwards though Mug’s damage has been essentially halved.
It’s completely fine.
The dps of Dagger and Sword auto is essentially the same on a single target with Sword doing a hell of a lot more once cleave comes in to play. the Whole out damage FS the auto is nonsense. LS itself can certainly do 7k damage if you get bloodlust stacks up and much more consistently with the new Sins signet. Toss in Mug, Flame sigils and it’s a wrap.
The posted build can easily put out 9k+ in a flash while removing 2 boons and having Shadow return up for escape route purposes. Though I’m not a fan of Back-fighting it’s fully capable I assure you. The only thing missing is evade chaining :P.

jim.5380:

I will work on a guide soon, just wanted to post this so thieves stop running annoying sustain s/d

Oh, the irony.

Because theoretical correctness doesn’t matter, apparently.

Mrbig.8019:

and i would add:

if i’m playing a thief as a burst build ( finish weak opponents), wouldn’t i be better off with D/P rather than S/D ?

long story short:

S/D thieves are still not strong enough to be worthy: you’re not bringing anything to the table you wouldn’t bring with D/P or that couldn’t be brought ( with better results) by other classes.

-boon steal
-inf strike (is amazing if used correctly)?
-great roaming
-great for neutralizing points

Mrbig.8019:

The point is that while a S/D thief relies on evades, a D/P thief relies on blinds

- so what? (even though you can only blind in melee range)

Mrbig.8019:

Sword auto is slow and flanking strike animation is also slow to the point that a D/P thief spamming autos deals more damage than a S/D thief spamming flanking strike, with the added benefits of having HS when your opponent is low on HP and while also bringing burst + interrupts.

-know how it feels running with 20 stacks of might?

Mrbig.8019:

Moreover in your build you have no shortbow, so your effectiveness in team fights is equal to zero ( and your mobility is seriously hampered), mostly due to the fact you’re forced to pick the “ini on swap” trait since S/D is very ini expansive.

- inf strike is just awesome (if used correctly)
- you have swiftness up most of time
- for sure, there are better specs for team fights, nevertheless, I think it’s decent

Mrbig.8019:

Overall the trade off is simply not there. S/D may be a good duelist build, but that’s about it ( bring an ele or a mesmer if you want a duelist, they bring so much more to the team).

you just have to know about the benefits you have with S/D. I saw many thieves so far, who played s/d and were like “OK” (not saying i’m better though) but it shows thieves played for ages the same boring build (d/p) (imo) and now that we had so changes, it’s hard to get confident with sth “new” for tpvp and stuck on “old” things…

just my 2 cents

I feel as if somebody was trying to dump as much damage as possible into a weapon set that is clearly based on awareness, skill and deceit more than burst in an attempt to dumb it down.

Thieves have never had a hard time dealing damage, if they so chose, simply because of the damage increases/multipliers their traits offer. The build described above would pretty much just have you flanking strike a couple times and if you fail to kill your target swap to shortbow, till you can heal/SR.

It’s pretty much D/P with even less team support and I’d imagine anybody playing such a build would switch back to D/P once the feeling of novelty has worn off.

ensoriki.5789:

Big dismissed the exact same trait investment when I suggested it earlier this month, Imo it was the best trait spec for S/D pre-patch and remains one of the best afterwards though Mug’s damage has been essentially halved.
It’s completely fine.
The dps of Dagger and Sword auto is essentially the same on a single target with Sword doing a hell of a lot more once cleave comes in to play. the Whole out damage FS the auto is nonsense. LS itself can certainly do 7k damage if you get bloodlust stacks up and much more consistently with the new Sins signet. Toss in Mug, Flame sigils and it’s a wrap.
The posted build can easily put out 9k+ in a flash while removing 2 boons and having Shadow return up for escape route purposes. Though I’m not a fan of Back-fighting it’s fully capable I assure you. The only thing missing is evade chaining :P.

this is also valid for @ Destiny

but even in that case, why shouldn’t i swithc 5 traits from DA to trickery in order to pick preparedness ?

the whole point, anyways, is that although S/D is a completely different playstyle (by far the one I prefer), without spamming evades you give your opponent too much window of opportunity to destroy you ( if you take a look at jumper vs caed video, you’ll understand what I mean).

sword sustained damage is not on par with dagger damage, because your sustained pretty much comes from autos/flanking strike that are overall slow (while the set is pretty ini expansive).

I don’t want to dismiss the set, I LOVE how S/D plays, the point is that it’s still not on par, and the issues are

lack oc damage when compared to D/P (both burst and sustained)

lack of team utility (no interrupts, no burst)

just make the sword able to dish out more sustained damage than daggers and gives us some sword specific traits (along with the “share stolen boons” traits anet already mentioned in the sotg) and this set will be a very good alternative to D/P.

personally I’m eagerly waiting for it, but currently the set is simply not there.

Sword damage per se (AA chain that is) is pretty good and buffing it in terms of damage would be a bad call. Thieves have bad traits for their limited selection of weapons, however this is in part because cool down reduction traits obviously can’t be designed for them (the traits for dual skills just scream “unpolished” to be honest).

Right now dagger and damage chains are pretty equal and dagger is slightly higher dps wise only if pick up the 5% increase in damage for it (that’s how close it is).

The biggest difference is the sword’s cleave vs. the dagger’s poison. I often wish the sword had a trait that made it apply poison, though it would come at a very high opportunity cost in my build. Likewise I wish the dagger had a cleave, though that might make the weapon overpowered at that point, unless you make it a tier 3 Trickery trait.

Mrbig.8019:

and i would add:

if i’m playing a thief as a burst build ( finish weak opponents), wouldn’t i be better off with D/P rather than S/D ?

long story short:

S/D thieves are still not strong enough to be worthy: you’re not bringing anything to the table you wouldn’t bring with D/P or that couldn’t be brought ( with better results) by other classes.

They should buff sword sustained damage ( they’re actually going to do this in next patches, or at least they said they’re going to buff thief base damage) and create better sinergies within traits ( espcially sword ones, that are totally ABSENT), even more since S/D is pretty ini extensive, so you need tons of ini regen .

The sword sustained damage is pretty good and the thing that S/D brings is daze. That stealth daze can be very detrimental to your target, especially if they are on low health.

D/P brings an even better daze, Dirame.

S/D can burst really well. I like Lyssa runes, haste and 2 signets to blow if you’re going balls-to-the-wall burst though. I only ever go 25 in DA as a max though and quite often just 10. I like having more init.

Med.6150:

D/P brings an even better daze, Dirame.

I totally forgot about that daze, hehe.

Well since there is a good discusion going on here I am going to share with you the burst rotation, It is more damage than backstab in the burst time window keep that in mind.
Ok here goes, the rotation is precast flanking strike so you have lacernous prepared, wait 2 seconds to get some iniative back then cast lacernous midcast steal and slice(auto attack) well if you have fast fingers since slice is no cast time its instant larcenous steal auto attack damage, if you add all those attacks it is more damage than backstab steal on the same cast time and you add also area damage there with the auto attack, also the lacernous is unblockabke which doesnt really matter because mug hits first and you also take 2 boons for yourself.
If you play around s/d you guys will realise that even as GC can kill anything but rangers 1on1 equally skilled played plus the combo damage is equal to backstab.
It is as jumper said, with sustain he has the role of hitting ppl outside the main blob on the team fight and put enough pressure on them that at a point either they will drop or run or ask for help, this is why i called it annoying spec the role if it is to annoy the oponnent team.
Also I read about daze from d/p etc, you should know that sword “stealth attack” is 1.5 second daze and if for example a guardian pops his blocks you can pop those blocks extremely fast due to its cast time while lets say he is stomping your teamate.
Sword sustain is good but if I want to sustain on a team fight I am doing it with shortbow, with my spec I am way too glassy to stay more than 3 seconds on the circle with sword.

1. Slice is not instant, tooltips are often misleading. It’s fast obviously, but it’s not instant.

2. Backstab deals more damage than Slice and Larcenous Strike combined and you would get dagger auto attacks just the the same (pointing out that both Double Strike and Wild Strike are labelled as instants just like Slice).

3. Steal/Stab is performed from stealth usually. If you burst from out of stealth, there’s almost no reason not to have a Heartseeker or C&D in there for extra damage (< 50% HP Heartseeker alone deals the same damage as a Larcenous Strike).

4. D/P has much better burst follow up. It’s impossible to kill people with a Steal/Stab nowadays, so that “burst” really means that you have to dish out as much damage as possible with 4-6 consecutive attacks at the very least.

@med have u tried the build or jus making assumptions?

Personally I don’t like the build as I would rather more pts in accro or trickery for more initiative

@mrbig, nobody here is bagging dp, it’s one of our best sets, no question .. Again tho, your selling sd short. Fs/ls combo hits for around 10% less than backstab, plus it steals two boons, evades, and is spammable.. Throw in a power hitting auto chain, insane mobility and evasivness from inf strike, and a 1.5 s daze when you need it, and you have a pretty darn good weapon set

Is sd better than dp? Prob not, but it’s not too far behind

Med.6150:

1. Slice is not instant, tooltips are often misleading. It’s fast obviously, but it’s not instant.

The damage is instant try it first then post steal larcenous slice is 1/2s which is larcenous cast u can test it. Also try to dodge roll and slice.

2. Backstab deals more damage than Slice and Larcenous Strike combined and you would get dagger auto attacks just the the same (pointing out that both Double Strike and Wild Strike are labelled as instants just like Slice).

Backstab is a bit more dmg than larcenous + slice on average you are right but the min/max weapon dmg on sword is higher range than dagger i didnt really do the math i am just gonna confuse u here. But on the other hand you dont have to hit behind ur target for maximum dmg.
What follows after the burst on high level competitive play is IMMUNE or evade or heals from team or u downed him take ur pick so what follows is not useless ofc but its not so important on burst. About sustain dmg I can tell you that the spec I linked kills any support bunker in game that is traited for teamfight. Plus dont forget that the attacks from sword are area attacks which means u deal more dmg and more chances to proc fire sigil.

Med.6150:

3. Steal/Stab is performed from stealth usually. If you burst from out of stealth, there’s almost no reason not to have a Heartseeker or C&D in there for extra damage (< 50% HP Heartseeker alone deals the same damage as a Larcenous Strike).

I insinst on the high lvl competitive play u wont hit with basilisk a guy for 1.5s just for 0.5s . So its not gonna be c&d steal backstab ever or steal backstab heartseeker.

4. D/P has much better burst follow up. It’s impossible to kill people with a Steal/Stab nowadays, so that “burst” really means that you have to dish out as much damage as possible with 4-6 consecutive attacks at the very least.

Try out flanking-slice-larcenous-slice for sustain rotation. But as I said if u wanna sustain with GC then sustain with SBOW unless there are no glassy or hybrid dps on the current fight.

bomber.1540:

@mrbig, nobody here is bagging dp, it’s one of our best sets, no question .. Again tho, your selling sd short. Fs/ls combo hits for around 10% less than backstab, plus it steals two boons, evades, and is spammable.. Throw in a power hitting auto chain, insane mobility and evasivness from inf strike, and a 1.5 s daze when you need it, and you have a pretty darn good weapon set

Is sd better than dp? Prob not, but it’s not too far behind

What is bolded, basically.

D/P burst is absolutely not OP ( i woild even say it’s underperforming in current meta) so if S/D is not on par with D/P, it means it is a weaker choice for competitive PvP.

S/D needs a couple of dqmage buffs, better trait sinergies (boon sharing and similar stuff) and a good rehaul of OH dagger and the set will be highly competitive.

currently, it is not.

@jim

D/p burst combo hits with HS, steal and backstab almost instantly if you time it well.

if your opponent is not paying attention, you can cast BV after using BP so that the whole stuff will be istant (I use BV mostly to fake the burst, anyway).

S/D has in no way more damage than D/P, not sustained neither burst, it’s a fact.

the only thing S/D offers is boon stealing and cleave damage,last one which can’t be done in a teamfight since you’re gonna implode, so you’re better off with the shortbow and can be done with any other set.

D/P offers burst, interrupts and blind fields (while having more damage)
S/d offers boon stealing and teleports.

the trade off is no good

I’ve been playing a fair amount of SD since the prior patch and have found it to be a very niche application. I’m not playing a burst spec because it just didn’t do as much damage. I can boon steal and go through blocks but it’s just so init heavy it’s not as viable I have found.

Mrbig.8019:

D/P offers burst, interrupts and blind fields (while having more damage)
S/d offers boon stealing and teleports.

I guess you fear or refuse to play jim’s build.Damage is actually pretty good.My thoughts was more or less the same with yours but as you see I change my mind.
Sure it lacks trait synergy but it has lot of potential even in its current state.Also,I feel it provides more survivability than D/P.
All in all,it can be competitive and effective if the team can back it up and support it correctly.

S/D is definitely stronger in tPvP than D/P atm. Allone the fact that you can nearly win every 1v1, including bunkers, makes this so viable. Pushing on far-point was never easier. Even when the mesmer portals back, you can easy get him. As D/P it’s more about luck actually. The boon steal is the extra on top of it. Taking might away from engineers or protection/regen from guards is really strong. Beside that, the daze and immobilizes from S/D makes it hard to escape for others.

I opened the link saw what the first trait from the first tree was… made a facial expression o.O’

closed the link.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

S/D is definitely stronger in tPvP than D/P atm. Allone the fact that you can nearly win every 1v1, including bunkers, makes this so viable. Pushing on far-point was never easier. Even when the mesmer portals back, you can easy get him. As D/P it’s more about luck actually. The boon steal is the extra on top of it. Taking might away from engineers or protection/regen from guards is really strong. Beside that, the daze and immobilizes from S/D makes it hard to escape for others.

D/P is infinitely easier to play, which is why you see so many bad S/D thieves currently. In fact most have gone back to D/P, as D/P is actually pretty strong against S/D and requires no skill at all to at least be an average contributor.

Med.6150:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

S/D is definitely stronger in tPvP than D/P atm. Allone the fact that you can nearly win every 1v1, including bunkers, makes this so viable. Pushing on far-point was never easier. Even when the mesmer portals back, you can easy get him. As D/P it’s more about luck actually. The boon steal is the extra on top of it. Taking might away from engineers or protection/regen from guards is really strong. Beside that, the daze and immobilizes from S/D makes it hard to escape for others.

D/P is infinitely easier to play, which is why you see so many bad S/D thieves currently. In fact most have gone back to D/P, as D/P is actually pretty strong against S/D and requires no skill at all to at least be an average contributor.

Agree. But on the top you see rarely D/P thieves as this build is not optimal at all. Meta changed pretty hard.

Yes, people follow trends, because somebody they look up to does too or because they see it work on them. Then there are those that read the forums and when they read “The meta changed pretty hard”, they log in and switch their entire playstyle, because they don’t want to appear to be behind the curve.

Give it 2 weeks and most thieves will be back on D/P for good. It just takes one or two people abandoning the new trend.

I do have to disagree with S/D being stronger than D/P to be honest. D/P is a lot stronger than S/D imo, because of stealth mainly (secondly because of the blind and daze). Stealth is not an invicibility, but it is a crutch and very hard to counter, because of the resources your opponent has to spend in order to attempt to counter it.

I don’t want S/D to be stronger, I think it is very strong already, but very few people play it well. I would like D/P to become harder to play and if I was the developer in charge, I’d remove the leap finisher from Heartseeker.

My guild ignored the meta pretty long. We kept playing without engineer and a d/p thief. And now we see the result.
The problem with S/D being so strong is that he is soooo much better in a 1v1 than the D/P thief. This means backcapping is too easy for S/D. A mesmer won’t stand a chance against this build. Ergo: S/D is also hard to counter. This generates hard pressure on your close-point. Much more than a D/P is able to do.
It’s not a trend. It has proven that S/D is in many situations harder to handle than a single-burst thief. Believe me. We nearly scrimmed against every top team in EU and I saw the difference.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

My guild ignored the meta pretty long. We kept playing without engineer and a d/p thief. And now we see the result.
The problem with S/D being so strong is that he is soooo much better in a 1v1 than the D/P thief. This means backcapping is too easy for S/D. A mesmer won’t stand a chance against this build. Ergo: S/D is also hard to counter. This generates hard pressure on your close-point. Much more than a D/P is able to do.
It’s not a trend. It has proven that S/D is in many situations harder to handle than a single-burst thief. Believe me. We nearly scrimmed against every top team in EU and I saw the difference.

In terms of 1v1 I can give you a short breakdown of how meta builds fare against S/D and D/P. Obviously skill level is assumed to be identical:

Bunker Guardian: S/D thief wins easily, D/P thief wins eventually (poor time investment here). How long it will take for S/D is largely dependent on how big the node is and how much CC the guardian has off CD

Bunker Elementalist: S/D thief wins eventually, D/P thief wins eventually. Poor time investment for both. Key for S/D thief is landing LS, while D/P needs to pressure in spikes and keep poison up.

Hybrid Elementalist: S/D thief can’t win. D/P thief is 50/50.

Bunker Ranger (BM): S/D thief loses eventually, D/P thief wins fast or loses just as fast. All in all S/D has the better chances, because even though we are assuming skill is equal and that he will lose eventually, he can drag out the fight and succeed with a clutch play, while D/P has to hope he dazes the heal before he runs out of initiative to win.

DPS Warrior: S/D will lose pretty quickly, as the warrior’s pressure is really high in melee. S/D is always on the brink of death in this match up, due to limited stealth and CC. D/P thief will win relatively easy. Blinds, dazes and stealth on demand, make it nigh impossible for warriors to keep up pressure and seem them always on the defensive. That said, S/D can win by baiting out important skills, but that should not be used as reference.

HGH Engineer: Both S/D and D/P will lose due to limited condition removal and the need to stick to their target. S/D thief wins, if he evades the right stuff, D/P thief wins, if he gets 3 good bursts combos off, without dying to conditions in the process. All in all in favor of S/D by a small margin

Bomb Engineer: Both S/D and D/P will lose. D/P has the slightly better match up here, because this Engineer build can outlast a single opponent for quite some time due to CC and good healing (this is usually also played with Rabid and thus higher armor). A couple surprising burst combos and critical blinds and dazes and the D/P can win, while S/D will have to retreat way too often and getting hit while doing so (no stealth) to keep the pressure on.

D/P Thief: S/D will lose. Both are very fragile and D/P can capitalize much more on that fact by being the initiator of every clash due to stealth. S/D is a sitting duck when D/P decides to stealth. S/D would have to severely outplay D/P to win and that basically means dodging blindly and track the evade spam to turn around and C&D off the stealthed thief then daze to pressure him. As soon as you add Shadow Refuge in the equation for D/P, however, S/D can’t realistically win.

Necromancer: Both S/D and D/P will win. D/P has an easier time due to blinds being really annoying for slow casting Necromancer abilities.

Mesmer: This one is really complicated. In my opinion Mesmer should win against both S/D and D/P as long as they run S/F and Staff. S/D has the upper hand, however, due to cleave from the sword destroying clones while pressuring the Mesmer. D/P can pressure harder due to stealth and higher burst. Equally skilled Mesmer should win as long as they do not try to simply i-leap -> swap for their burst. That’s so 2012 and way too predictable.

Like empa said, it’s freaking awesome in 1on1 and you can roam like hell. (inf Strike makes it possible -> huge range port possibility)

People who know how to play s/d and recognize the strong benefits won’t change. Actually it’s not meta though, because it’s not easy to play, and you have to be good, to benefit of this spec.

EDIT:
@Med’s, last post

Did you ever played s/d? (don’t take it personally) but your s/d vs x-class list is just wrong. No s/d will lose against war, neither against ele …in fact, s/d can win against most classes…only weakness are conditions. I play dual s/d since last patch and can assure you underestimate s/d

If you want someone to invade far, a ranger is a much better and safer option.
1. The ranger is a lot stronger in 1v1’s.
2. If the enemy reinforces their close (which happens quite often) the ranger has a much higher chance at staying alive than the s/d thief.

just saying

The short answer is, I have been playing S/D since before the patch to be prepared for the changes and haven’t abandoned it since, except for one day in order to compare the viability of both.

I am very strong with S/D and a pain in the kitten for everyone judging by the opponents’ feedback. However, the same was true with D/P, though that was pretty much a given considering how easy it was to play (another reason why I am grateful for the “trend” and welcome any S/D thieves).

Destiny.6738:

Like empa said, it’s freaking awesome in 1on1 and you can roam like hell. (inf Strike makes it possible -> huge range port possibility)

People who know how to play s/d and recognize the strong benefits won’t change. Actually it’s not meta though, because it’s not easy to play, and you have to be good, to benefit of this spec.

EDIT:
@Med’s, last post

Did you ever played s/d? (don’t take it personally) but your s/d vs x-class list is just wrong. No s/d will lose against war, neither against ele …in fact, s/d can win against most classes…only weakness are conditions. I play dual s/d since last patch and can assure you underestimate s/d

Assume you playing on a node: bunker guard will drop against S/D while D/P will drop due to retaliation. Ele will drop against a S/D due to constant boon-remove, while he can mistform the D/P’s burst too easy and after that can heal up. Against mesmer an S/D will win EVERY battle, if we assume both are on the same skill-level, while the D/P has to hit his combo. Otherwise he gets shattered or he is able to run away. This is why he has so much more potential. He can pretty much roam to every point he wants to.

Destiny.6738:

EDIT:
@Med’s, last post
…neither against ele …in fact, s/d can win against most classes…

One more thing to adress the above. A S/D Elementalist has range capabilities that will pressure a S/D thief much more than a D/P thief who can stealth without a target. S/D Elementalist burst is instant and easy to hit, if you are familiar with the evade frames of the S/D thief. Lightning Strike, 2x Arcanes and a weapon swap sigil proc all hit while you are trying to LS him through a dodge roll.

I’m not judging Med – but s/d will almost never lose against war…that’s just a fact

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Assume you playing on a node: bunker guard will drop against S/D while D/P will drop due to retaliation.

As I specified above, I agree on this entirely. The S/D thief has a much easier time to kill the bunker guardian and if you scroll up, you will see that while I said the D/P thief can win, it’s too time consuming to be worth it, because you have to pay attention to retaliation, but also protection and CC when you time your offense.

Ele will drop against a S/D due to constant boon-remove, while he can mistform the D/P’s burst too easy and after that can heal up.

Again, if we are talking bunker Elementalist, I recall agreeing above. The pressure from a bunker Elementalist is not sufficient, so that S/D will eventually win. The Elementalist will drag out that fight by evading LS either with dodges or with CC and mobility. The S/D thief can not constantly stay on the target, because Infiltrator’s Strike can be interrupted by CC and thus not trigger Shadow Return or the immbilize. D/P Thief will take even longer, however it’s too time consuming for either of them.

Against mesmer an S/D will win EVERY battle, if we assume both are on the same skill-level

This one I disagree with. Staff and Sword + Focus have a good amount of survivability and CC attached to them, and a good shatter combo will put the Thief on the defensive just like it will the D/P Thief. As I specified though, I do think S/D has an easier time than D/P.

Destiny.6738:

I’m not judging Med – but s/d will almost never lose against war…that’s just a fact

Join the duelling arena and you will be surprised how many times the warriors are besting the S/D thieves there.

then the s/d is probably playing without evades or is just bad

no keybind for dodge – that must be it…

There used to be a problem causing enough damage to a Defense Warrior running Turtles because S/ triggered it on auto, inf strike, DD, and tactical. Since S/ doesn’t do any more damage than it did a month ago would not be surprised if S/D thieves were finding an issue with some warriors. On the other hand if someone can get you without an SR up it’s not hard for you to get blown up and SR can be forcibly popped.