(edited by Pride N Greed.8106)
Jonathan Sharp Contradict's himself?
JP contradicted himself when talking about Warrior too.
He just implied Warrior potential is the same as Terran from SC2 and Irelia from LoL when he called the class a Master Yi.
Since people are negative about nerfs, how about we buff to balance then?
It’s not so much about him contradicting himself as the company having conflicting policies.
Maybe they claim they don’t want to release something until it’s ready, and maybe someone higher up said release anyway. Maybe the whole when it’s ready is a PR stunt. Maybe they’re all sadists and enjoy lying to people who knows.
Bottom line is you can’t account one person for the decisions a whole company makes, the guy was just trying to explain the decisions made, contradictory as they are.
Sure it would be nice if a company as an entity stuck to their word, but we live in a kitteny world where corporate lies are the norm so better be skeptic about claims like these at all times.
It’s not so much about him contradicting himself as the company having conflicting policies.
Maybe they claim they don’t want to release something until it’s ready, and maybe someone higher up said release anyway. Maybe the whole when it’s ready is a PR stunt. Maybe they’re all sadists and enjoy lying to people who knows.
Bottom line is you can’t account one person for the decisions a whole company makes, the guy was just trying to explain the decisions made, contradictory as they are.
Sure it would be nice if a company as an entity stuck to their word, but we live in a kitteny world where corporate lies are the norm so better be skeptic about claims like these at all times.
I am definitely not trying to put all the blame on Jonathan Sharp. I think he is the only who can save pvp. He is our link to anet on what needs to get done on the pvp end. Bottom line is, he got the ok from arena net to do the interview. When you work for a big company like them and are doing a interview. You represent them and are sharing the views of the company and were you want it to go. He is the lead pvp designer so we know he must have a lot of say on what goes on.
When you have a complaint about something you go straight to management right?
(edited by Pride N Greed.8106)
Yeah… Maybe I’m a bad person, but I find that even though I have principles I try to live up to, sometimes practical needs or other principles get in the way. Often this leads me into complex situations where I do something that I don’t like, but it seems like the lesser of two evils.
Because I know this about myself, I try to be reasonable when I recognize it in other people and companies.
I play on Maguuma
Uru Kalach (80-War)/Kalthin Leafletter (80-Rgr)/Kalfun Gai (72-Guardian)
Leader – An Unexpected Kinship (AUK)
Uru Kalach (80-War)/Kalthin Leafletter (80-Rgr)/Kalfun Gai (72-Guardian)
Leader – An Unexpected Kinship (AUK)
First off..
We all know little enough about their reasonings for releasing when they did that we can’t really say anything short of blind assumptions…
Not everything in ArenaNet is run and decided by Jonathan Sharp and the PvP balance devs…
It’s their philosophy about progress, not that of the entire company.
…I think he is the only who can save pvp. He is our link to anet on what needs to get done on the pvp end….
hahahahahahahhahah…
Wouf, let get my breath for a second…
You’re implying random forum go’ers have all the idea needed to save PvP?!?
hahhahahahahahahah
Man that’s a kick in the pants.
The people at Anet understand the workings of the game just as well as anyone here does, no wait, far better than anyone here does. What they can and end up doing is the product of the methods a of a business, (timelines, funds, profits, manpower, exc.) and they have dozens of people who do little else but work on ways to improve the game….
Any idea expressed here, odds say, has been thought of there.. the constraints are just man power, methodology and opinions of effectiveness…
The only thing that will come out of public forums are general opinions on already implemented or soon to be implemented content and I would rarely if ever want it to be any more than that…
(edited by garethh.3518)
…I think he is the only who can save pvp. He is our link to anet on what needs to get done on the pvp end….
hahahahahahahhahah…
Wouf, let get my breath for a second…
You’re implying random forum go’ers have all the idea needed to save PvP…hahhahahahahahahah
Man you’re a kick in the pants.
The people at Anet understand what is going on just as well as you do, no wait, far better than you do. What they can and end up doing is the product of the methods a of a business, (timelines, funds, profits, manpower, exc.) and they have dozens of people who do little else but work on ways to improve the game….
Any idea expressed here, odds say, has been thought of there.. the constraints are just man power and opinions of effectiveness…
The only thing that will come out of public forums are general opinions on already implemented or soon to be implemented content and I would rarely ever want it to be any more than that…
Not implying that forum "go’ers have all the ideas. There are some people who put out some great ideas on many different posts i read with devs on here agreeing to them. But, what you fail to realize is that the community is what drives the game any game for that matter. Jonathan even stated that they read the forums. They hear us on what we have to say. According to him, they are tailoring pvp on what we like.One way to communicate with them is on the forums.
You’re implying random forum go’ers have all the idea needed to save PvP…
hahhahahahahahahah
Man you’re a kick in the pants.
The people at Anet understand what is going on just as well as you do, no wait, far better than you do.
NGE-era Star Wars: Galaxies wants a word with you.
In particular, the ever famous quote from SOE CEO John Smedley -
“With the NGE, I’m sorry about the mistake we made,” he told us. "We screwed up and didn’t listen to the fans when we should have, and it’s not a mistake we’re going to make again.
…
[The mistake was] to not just think we know the right direction without bringing the fans into the mix," he explained. “We made the cardinal sin of not listening, but assuming and we were wrong.”
Unfortunately, developers do not always know best and SWG isn’t the only example of it – it’s just the most popular one. Post-Trammel UO is another great precedent.
(edited by Noctred.6732)
There’s a difference between not implementing a change until they are sure it will help, and releasing the game without having exact knowledge of how every skill combination will work out. Basically, there was no way for them to predict every balance issue that would emerge ahead of time, so it was better to release the game in a controlled game mode and plan to make changes after release, because beta weekends simply can’t give enough raw data to release a 100% finished PvP game.
On the other hand, now that they have the data, they are right to wait a bit instead of hotfixing every little balance change. The only thing worse that flavor of the month is flavor of the week. I’d rather see one good patch per month, than three good patches and one bad patch per month. It’s not a matter of not putting enough effort in before release, it’s just that some things can’t be foreseen ahead of time.
Also, D3 will be in textbooks of the future on how not to make/manage video games.
Not implying that forum "go’ers have all the ideas. There are some people who put out some great ideas on many different posts i read with devs on here agreeing to them. But, what you fail to realize is that the community is what drives the game any game for that matter. Jonathan even stated that they read the forums. They hear us on what we have to say. According to him, they are tailoring pvp on what we like.One way to communicate with them is on the forums.
Saying the one dev who commonly is known, and just said to be the ‘forum perusing guy’ is the only one who can save a game, is a pretty blatant implication to that idea…
Anyways…
Yes some people wandering threw forums have good ideas, but it is a rare rare day that they are something the devs have not thought of and beats out their ideas.
Let me repeat… extremely rare day.
And good luck with that dream… the day that devs tailor a game based on what people on the forums say they want is the day an MMO becomes a nightmare…
(edited by garethh.3518)
You’re implying random forum go’ers have all the idea needed to save PvP…
hahhahahahahahahah
Man you’re a kick in the pants.
The people at Anet understand what is going on just as well as you do, no wait, far better than you do.NGE-era Star Wars: Galaxies wants a word with you.
In particular, the ever famous quote from SOE CEO John Smedley -
“With the NGE, I’m sorry about the mistake we made,” he told us. "We screwed up and didn’t listen to the fans when we should have, and it’s not a mistake we’re going to make again.
…
[The mistake was] to not just think we know the right direction without bringing the fans into the mix," he explained. “We made the cardinal sin of not listening, but assuming and we were wrong.”
Unfortunately, developers do not always know best and SWG isn’t the only example of it – it’s just the most popular one. Post-Trammel UO is another great precedent.
Using the fan population for their opinions on content, what they like or what they don’t is as important as kitten.
I even tagged in a few lines about it so it wouldn’t be misunderstood.
Using the fans as a base for ideas on how to make the game better… now that is bad territory to sail…
There are good ideas occasionally floating around in the mix, like I said, but short of a few pro or extremely intelligent players congregating over a major issue… using forum ideas just really doesn’t happen often… and I wouldn’t expect it to.
(edited by garethh.3518)
Not implying that forum "go’ers have all the ideas. There are some people who put out some great ideas on many different posts i read with devs on here agreeing to them. But, what you fail to realize is that the community is what drives the game any game for that matter. Jonathan even stated that they read the forums. They hear us on what we have to say. According to him, they are tailoring pvp on what we like.One way to communicate with them is on the forums.
Saying the one dev who commonly is known, and just said to be the ‘forum perusing guy’ is the only one who can save a game, is a pretty blatant implication to that idea…
Anyways…
Yes some people have good ideas, but it is a rare rare day that they are something the devs have not thought of and beats out their ideas.
Let me repeat… extremely rare day.And good luck with that dream… the day that devs tailor a game based on what people on the forums say they want is the day an MMO becomes a nightmare…
You obviously have not seen the interview..
I think that we don’t know enough about the decisions of them, and their publisher about release. If they did say everything was fine, they made the big mistake a lot of ambitious developers do now. They assumed they had a patient, and understanding playerbase.
Honestly a feel a bit silly replying to this. When did we start treating game developers and designers like politicians? Constantly trying to find things to pick at and trying at every turn to discredit what they say.
This doesn’t help anything.
There’s a difference between not implementing a change until they are sure it will help, and releasing the game without having exact knowledge of how every skill combination will work out. Basically, there was no way for them to predict every balance issue that would emerge ahead of time, so it was better to release the game in a controlled game mode and plan to make changes after release, because beta weekends simply can’t give enough raw data to release a 100% finished PvP game.
On the other hand, now that they have the data, they are right to wait a bit instead of hotfixing every little balance change. The only thing worse that flavor of the month is flavor of the week. I’d rather see one good patch per month, than three good patches and one bad patch per month. It’s not a matter of not putting enough effort in before release, it’s just that some things can’t be foreseen ahead of time.
Also, D3 will be in textbooks of the future on how not to make/manage video games.
Yes, I agree with you to some extent.Only one major flaw i see is not implementing Rankings/Ladders since launch. That would of given them much more better data than what the game has to offer as he stated in the interview. Much better to balance imo when you have ranking/ladder systems like lol/dota/ etc….Again ill go back to what i said. I rather wait till all of this was implemented. We would all be enjoying pvp and anet would have a easier time trying to balance. First impression is very important. Look at how dead the mists are.
(edited by Pride N Greed.8106)
Using the fan population for their opinions on content, what they like or what they don’t is as important as kitten.
…
Using the fans as a base for ideas on how to make the game better… now that is bad territory to sail…
These two things go hand in hand though.
If a change is proposed or announced and you see a wild outcry of opposition from your player base, then choosing to succumb to that outcry is more or less accepting that your player base knows what’s best for the game better than you do, to some extent.
There are at least six examples I can think of off the top of my head where developers chose to ignore that outcry and the game visibly suffered as a result -
1. SWG: NGE. This was already described above and the company’s CEO actually apologized for it.
2. Ultima Online: Renaissance. The introduction of Trammel pretty much killed PvP in this game on a global scale and the player base had predicted as much long before the expansion was ever released.
3. DAoC: Trials of Atlantis. Similar to UO, this expansion pretty much killed PvP in the game and, by extention, pretty much just killed the game outright because its biggest draw at endgame had always been RvR, which ToA had made more or less impossible without 24/7 grind. The player base predicted this one too.
4. Planetside. SOE more or less killed their own game through neglect here, despite constant outcries by fans who wanted to save it.
5. Asheron’s Call 2. Fastest global server shutdown in MMO history, as far as I know. You can go read about it if you’d like.
6. Warhammer Online. Faction imbalances. Absurd crowd control systems. Insane class imbalances. Inappropriate solutions to server performance issues. Too much trying to add new content instead of fixing existing content. The player base called it. Mythic didn’t agree. Game died.
There’s nothing wrong with using fans for ideas on how to make the game better. The history is there and many of us have seen what can happen when dev studios don’t seriously consider ideas being provided by their players.
edit:
You can add SWTOR to that list as well, if you’d like. I didn’t bring it up because it’s very recent and I assume everybody remembers what happened there. Same thing – player base called it; BioWare didn’t agree; game died.
(edited by Noctred.6732)
These two things go hand in hand though.
They are related, but not the same.
There is a distinction between the two and that was my point.
Companies have screwed up MMOs.
Yes people complain when companies screw up MMOs.
No that doesn’t mean their solutions to the problem are good.
(edited by garethh.3518)
I think if anet would of just held off on pvp and just added ladders/rankings.PvP would be doing 100x better than it currently is doing.
Noctred you did your homework for all those mmo’s i can add a few more but there is no point. We all know all the mmos that have come out in the last couple of years did not do so well. That is why a lot of people have high hopes for this game. They delivered on the pve end we got the short end of the stick on the pvp side:(
I would like to point something out in the interview with Jonathan sharp about the state of pvp. Jonathan pretty much said pvp is not were they wanted it to be, but he states that they wont release something until its ready.(Like ladders,Arenas etc…)That seems to be anet favorite phrase this days. Than he states that the reason why pvp is in its current state is because pve was done and the game was released on the account knowing pvp was not fully finished. They thought that they could build upon pvp as time went by.
To me what Jonathan said is just one big contradiction in my eyes. Why even release pvp if its not done? You guys even state you wont release until its ready. Why not just wait like how d3 is doing it? Why did you guys not put enough effort into pvp like how you guys did pve? You bring up gw1 pvp in the interview but don’t acknowledge that it was a good foundation already that you guys could of used. I’m sorry if it seems like a rant. I just have to many questions as to why pvp is so bad currently. You guys could have done a lot better job. I had huge hopes for pvp. You guys should have just stuck to your guns and waited UNTIL ITS READY! I would of been more than happy to wait knowing pvp would be rock solid than what we currently have. I think the community would agree.
Here is a link to the interview
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hByqoWsnz-I
Because D3 is a prime example on how to make and manage videogames.
That game died in a month.
Picking on games simply because you don’t like them is not going to help the subject matter. What is at stake here is how poorly developed spvp/tpvp was launched. Having amazing gw1 pvp and none of it was implemented. Also, this game has been in development since 2007 and had plenty of time to lay a more solid foundation is what bothers me.
this game has been in development since 2007 and had plenty of time to lay a more solid foundation is what bothers me.
Then you titled your thread terribly.
this game has been in development since 2007 and had plenty of time to lay a more solid foundation is what bothers me.
Then you titled your thread terribly.
No my title is fine, I just wanted to point out those contradictions. People keep veering the thread off course.
Picking on games simply because you don’t like them is not going to help the subject matter. What is at stake here is how poorly developed spvp/tpvp was launched. Having amazing gw1 pvp and none of it was implemented. Also, this game has been in development since 2007 and had plenty of time to lay a more solid foundation is what bothers me.
Picking on games? Where?
You brought up D3 as an example, not me. I just stated what happened to that game since launch. It still doesn’t have PvP. And that games been dead.
Fact of the matter is, the same thing would have happened to GW2 if they held all PvP out of the game. An entire player base would cease to exist. There would be a HELL of alot more people complaining about missing half the content out of an entire game as opposed to a proportionately smaller amount of players making generalized comments about how “bad” the system is.
tl;dr D3 failed and it’s better to QQ about broken PvP than no PvP at all.
When did we start treating game developers and designers like politicians? Constantly trying to find things to pick at and trying at every turn to discredit what they say.
This doesn’t help anything.
I was thinking the same thing. I don’t know when it happened, but the moment it did, it created a chasm between developers/game designers/etc. and the community. Now, no one at ANet can say anything without triple-checking it and having it approved by everyone because even the slightest comment made off-hand anywhere will be blown out of proportion and have potential financial consequences.
It’s insane and frustrating to me.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
I agree Pride,
It seems releasing things when they are ready does not apply to spvp. It was clearly not ready.
The inability to have a private match in a game that is supposed to be an esport is the most glaringly obvious example.
My guess would be that most of the development resources were thrown into pve and WvW which were the main focuses of innovation talked about in the manifesto.
They probably felt that they had spvp figured out due to GW1, and tried to innovate there as well with the tournament system which has fallen flat.
Unfortunately spvp doesn’t seem to have received the resources it needed and I am sure it fell behind which is why they were forced to go with conquest mode even though it sucks, and put premade teams vs pugs in the only competitive mode for the first 2 months. It was all they could manage to get together by the time PVE and WvW was ready to ship.
This is all just speculation based on no evidence, but its the only explanation I can think of for why there was such a gigantic mismatch between what was promised, and what was delivered.
(edited by Jacobin.8509)
JP contradicted himself when talking about Warrior too.
He just implied Warrior potential is the same as Terran from SC2 and Irelia from LoL when he called the class a Master Yi.
The Master Yi comparison was regarding Hundred Blades – kills newbies but is balanced vs players who have PvP’d for more than 2 minutes.
Warrior class’s overall potential is like Terran and Irelia. Easy to pick up and play, may feel slightly clunky compared to other classes (ESPECIALLY because of enormous bugs like Fast Hands, one of the only unique and defining characteristics of warriors, doesn’t work at all), but has potential to perform well.
Picking on games simply because you don’t like them is not going to help the subject matter. What is at stake here is how poorly developed spvp/tpvp was launched. Having amazing gw1 pvp and none of it was implemented. Also, this game has been in development since 2007 and had plenty of time to lay a more solid foundation is what bothers me.
Picking on games? Where?
You brought up D3 as an example, not me. I just stated what happened to that game since launch. It still doesn’t have PvP. And that games been dead.Fact of the matter is, the same thing would have happened to GW2 if they held all PvP out of the game. An entire player base would cease to exist. There would be a HELL of alot more people complaining about missing half the content out of an entire game as opposed to a proportionately smaller amount of players making generalized comments about how “bad” the system is.
tl;dr D3 failed and it’s better to QQ about broken PvP than no PvP at all.
I disagree a game is not dead until the servers shut down. D3 population is down but most of the the guilds i talk to and friends are waiting on pvp. They are considering making that game a esport. Point being, people new pvp was not ready. Majority of the people in Gw2 were expecting esport type game from all the talk that goes years back. After it launched, mists had tons of people only to see it diminish in less than 3 months to the point its almost extinct. This is the first mmo were i have seen a huge decline in the pvp population in that amount of time. Not even fail swtor had a huge fall that rapid.
I am hoping that they fix it sooner rather than later because people will just lose interest. History has shown that in past mmo’s.
(edited by Pride N Greed.8106)
D3 population is down but most of the the guilds i talk to and friends are waiting on pvp. They are considering making that game a esport.
Every single thing I’ve heard about D3 PvP is that they are specifically not considering making it an e-sport in any way. I have no idea where you heard that, but if you have a source, posting sources could maybe become the cool new thing to these forums.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”