Guild Wars 2

It’s sad to say. but the recent leaderboard ladder has come up with a great idea to punish soloq’ers. This has been discussed several times and thread has been posted for numerous occasions but I’m still optimistic that they will have a system in place where soloq’ers can still join the PVP leaderboard and winning by their gameplay, gaining points whether losing or winning. at the same time having to filter high MMR against low MMR.

I might be dreaming but I believe it is possible. people can be matched up with high vs med MMR level instead of high and low MMR level.

Gonna keep spamming this concept, because it is important. Make a button on the in queue section that says “match me now”. If you hit that button, then the matchmaking system assumes it’s okay to put you in a match where you might be too underleveled or overleveled. If you do not hit that button, then it just will force you to wait and sit in queue until it has a group that it is confident will be a match for you.

But I’m sick and tired of queueing up, waiting an average amount of time to get thrown into a terrible match, then having to queue up AGAIN. I’d much rather have had that match time spent waiting for something better. And if there still isn’t something after 15 minutes? I’d sure as heck rather know that there’s nobody at my level playing pvp right now.

You really believe that? The new LB has huge flaws, but in my opinion it favors solo player too much! Let me give you an example:

Adam is a very good player, and he has a team. Bob is an okay player, and he only plays in soloq.

- Adam likes to face the best premades in the game. He likes close matches, good rotations, and playing with his friends.

- Bob doesn’t really care about rotations: he plays turret engi. He likes playin with strangers of his level.

- When his team is not online, Adam plays in unranked or in WvW/PvE, because he always want to give the very best in ranked.

- Meanwhile, Bob plays in ranked.

- Sometimes, Adam and his team play in unranked to test new comps.

- Meanwhile, Bob plays in ranked.

- Adam often duels his team mates or other good players, to make sure his mechanical skill is still sufficient.

- Meanwhile, Bob plays in ranked.

What’s the result in the end? Providing they have the same amount of free time to play the game, Bob will most likely be way above Adam in the LB! And it gets worse if Bob plays way more. The truth is, solo players should rarely reach the top of the LB, since the amount of skill it requires to play in top level teams is way beyond any soloq game. It doesn’t mean solo players are bad: it means there is a random component in soloq that doesn’t fit in a competitive game. I love solo queuing, but when I do, I know it’s just for casual fum.

@Sorel.4870

Your logic is flawed. Adam could just as easily solo Q when his team isn’t online. Why should I. as a solo q player, have to cater to adam and his friends’ schedules?

- When his team is not online, Adam plays in unranked or in WvW/PvE, because he always want to give the very best in ranked.
>>>>>>>>>>>
lol, I fail to see how Akitten ca’t give his very best just because he isn’t in a team… Maybe it should read more like " Adam always want to have an advantage of be part of a premade vs pugs in most matches…"

Mogar.9216:

lol, I fail to see how Akitten ca’t give his very best just because he isn’t in a team… Maybe it should read more like " Adam always want to have an advantage of be part of a premade vs pugs in most matches…"

I’ll answer to you, but it goes for the other post as well. You say it yourself: playing in a team gives you a strategic advantage: you rotate better, you focus players better, you can do crazy portal strategies… So you have to admit that the team gameplay, because of its complexity and the synergy you can achieve as a team, is a more effective way of playing the game.

I’ll assume you are like me: relatively good players, dragon rank for a while, but mostly playing in solo/duo queue and not taking the game too seriously. Do you have any pleasure in a game where the CP constantly switch color because your team rotate poorly, where people immediately rush far just to be wiped after getting mid, causing the lost of mid, where you loose a team fight because the mesmer on your team didn’t see the lich and didn’t moa it? I don’t: I like it when my team, even if they are solo players, works well together, rotates well, and care for others in team fights. I’m sure you agree.

Now, Adam, if he queues solo, even with better players than the one I enjoy playing with, he will have the same feeling as if you and I had the kind of game I mentioned: the rotations will feel wrong, he won’t be able to do the exciting cc chains he can pull out within his team, and the whole experience will probably be frustrating. In addition, Adam will likely have a better MMR than any solo player (because teams are better than PUGs), and is likely to be rekt by a full premade, while he is paired with a 4-man group. If he cares about winning, the best strategy for him is to play with his friends.

Finally, full premade gameplay is the most skill-based, most effective gameplay in pvp. So players in the best teams, with the best MMRs, are the best players in the game, and deserve to be on top of the LB, above some average solo players who can play all day with medium skill.

Ithilwen.1529:

@Sorel.4870

Your logic is flawed. Adam could just as easily solo Q when his team isn’t online. Why should I. as a solo q player, have to cater to adam and his friends’ schedules?

The original post claimed that the LB favored premades. So you disagree with that original statement?

Why do ppl still care for the kittening leaderboard ?
There is really no great reward so who cares ?

The most important thing atm is to get good matches, so all that matters is finding enemies or enemy teams at your MMR.

Ingame rewards tracks are pretty much the same for anyone, sure if you win more you get em faster but it’s okay to lose here and there.

And as long as they don’t get their idea behind the leaderboard right they will not give out any good rewards either, so just be happy to get good games and stop bothering about the stupid LB … .

Sorel.4870:

Mogar.9216:

lol, I fail to see how Akitten ca’t give his very best just because he isn’t in a team… Maybe it should read more like " Adam always want to have an advantage of be part of a premade vs pugs in most matches…"

I’ll answer to you, but it goes for the other post as well. You say it yourself: playing in a team gives you a strategic advantage: you rotate better, you focus players better, you can do crazy portal strategies… So you have to admit that the team gameplay, because of its complexity and the synergy you can achieve as a team, is a more effective way of playing the game.

I’ll assume you are like me: relatively good players, dragon rank for a while, but mostly playing in solo/duo queue and not taking the game too seriously. Do you have any pleasure in a game where the CP constantly switch color because your team rotate poorly, where people immediately rush far just to be wiped after getting mid, causing the lost of mid, where you loose a team fight because the mesmer on your team didn’t see the lich and didn’t moa it? I don’t: I like it when my team, even if they are solo players, works well together, rotates well, and care for others in team fights. I’m sure you agree.

Now, Adam, if he queues solo, even with better players than the one I enjoy playing with, he will have the same feeling as if you and I had the kind of game I mentioned: the rotations will feel wrong, he won’t be able to do the exciting cc chains he can pull out within his team, and the whole experience will probably be frustrating. In addition, Adam will likely have a better MMR than any solo player (because teams are better than PUGs), and is likely to be rekt by a full premade, while he is paired with a 4-man group. If he cares about winning, the best strategy for him is to play with his friends.

Finally, full premade gameplay is the most skill-based, most effective gameplay in pvp. So players in the best teams, with the best MMRs, are the best players in the game, and deserve to be on top of the LB, above some average solo players who can play all day with medium skill.

I am not in a premade so I can’t say that I have played pvp at the highest level. So what I say I take from my experience of DAoC , WoW and WarHmmer where I did play with a set of very good friends. I do agree that good team vs good team makes you play at a very high level however there is something to be said on try and carry a bad team. Imo it requires just as much good play in both cases just DIFFERENT play style.
This sort of brings me to another point that is solo Q and team Q should be separate like it used to be, because the skills required to succeeded in the 2 areasr are different .

I disagree that playing in a team is “the highest level.” It’s troubling to see the way younger ( I suspect younger ) players go in for the herd mentality.

Last time I checked, this game was about heroes and epic deeds. I play my best when I’m trying to work with a PUG and adapt to changing circumstances as rapidly as possible.

Organized gaming, with carefully scripted plays belongs in the world of console video football games.

If you need a team to play well and you don’t think a game is good unless it’s scripted and played by a playbook.. then I suggest that you have lost perspective.

Maybe I’m missing something, but what’s the logic of matching full premades with solo-quers?

They had a system where premades would face premades and solos face solos.

First of all…who at Anet came up with the idea…is there ANYONE that plays this game that would say something like….

“Hey, we should make solo players face premades. I know we already have it programmed to separate the two, but that doesn’t make sense. It’s better if we make them play each other.”

Better yet…who on earth sat in that meeting at Anet and agreed it was a good idea?

I realize the ONE and ONLY benefit is that it could shorten que times. However, the #1 priority of every game should be fun and fairness. What’s the point in hurrying up something that is worthless for both sides? The goal should be to AVOID miserable experiences, not hurry them up.

On top of that, it totally corrupts the leaderboard because the algorithm is based on a grind. Thus, you will always be better off (on average) being in a full premade versus solo.

Plus, we now have a major problem where your win/loss record is not comparable to others. Prior to the change, you could see drastic changes in win/loss records for the same player comparing their solo versus team que. Now you have no idea.

I guess this all makes perfect sense to someone at Anet because all these issues are something they could easily foresee without beta testing.

ladderboard doesnt favor premades. ladderboard favors the person who plays every waking second, from average mmr for the lowest queue times. premade? so? solo? who cares.

matchmaking favors premades. the pvp community is small, and high mmr players like to play together, so there arent enough to accommodate random team sizes and still fill in the gaps with other skilled players before the queue time gets long enough that matchmaking forces a match. so you sit in queue for 10 minutes while not finding an equivalent team and eventually matchmaking just starts something, anything, so you can play… instead of not playing.

Ithilwen.1529:

I disagree that playing in a team is “the highest level.” It’s troubling to see the way younger ( I suspect younger ) players go in for the herd mentality.

Last time I checked, this game was about heroes and epic deeds. I play my best when I’m trying to work with a PUG and adapt to changing circumstances as rapidly as possible.

Organized gaming, with carefully scripted plays belongs in the world of console video football games.

If you need a team to play well and you don’t think a game is good unless it’s scripted and played by a playbook.. then I suggest that you have lost perspective.

Organized doesn’t mean scripted. I think that’s an odd way of seeing things, at least it’s far from what I experience when I play in a team. I didn’t play any football game after FIFA 2001 (it’s been a while), but if I remember correctly, it’s a single player game: you control all the players.

Now, real football on the other hand, is all about getting a good team together, practicing hard and performing well together. If there was a football soloq mode, you can bet your boots that less people would watch it. Why? Because there are less good moves, less skill involved, and everyone in the stadium would see that the overall level of play would be miles under any organized team, even if the solo-only team is a “super-pug” with the best players in the world. And they didn’t even need voice communication in football! Why, all of the sudden, in a team game, people assume soloq is just as skillful because it’s a video game?

I love soloq, I love meeting players from across the world, and I would never do this by casually playing football. But I’m not fooling anyone: coordinating within a team requires far more coordination, and make for a lot more of interesting plays than the rather basic rotations you’re FORCED to do in soloq, because the communication between the players is not as good, and they are not used to play together.

Does anyone (outside of Josh and a handful of Dev’s) even know how this system even works? I can’t even make heads or tails out of the points awarded. You can have more total wins, more total games played, a higher W/L ratio, and STILL have less points than other players. Even myself being in the 700’s, find myself facing top 100 players.
Which hey, I’m flattered and all but, I’m an old F with arthritis. Gimmie Breaka’

DeWolfe.2174:

Does anyone (outside of Josh and a handful of Dev’s) even know how this system even works? I can’t even make heads or tails out of the points awarded. You can have more total wins, more total games played, a higher W/L ratio, and STILL have less points than other players. Even myself being in the 700’s, find myself facing top 100 players.
Which hey, I’m flattered and all but, I’m an old F with arthritis. Gimmie Breaka’

The complete algorithm for both match making and LB is given there:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm

To be brief, you are awarded LB points if you win when the odds were in your favor, or when you win when they were against you. You’re supposed to loose points when you loose when the odds are balanced or in your favor.

Since the second test season began, the amount of points you were awarded was too high compared to the number you were loosing. So players who played a lot were artificially getting higher on the LB. Grouch said yesterday that he adjusted this system, so I won’t talk about now.

Sorel.4870:

DeWolfe.2174:

Does anyone (outside of Josh and a handful of Dev’s) even know how this system even works? I can’t even make heads or tails out of the points awarded. You can have more total wins, more total games played, a higher W/L ratio, and STILL have less points than other players. Even myself being in the 700’s, find myself facing top 100 players.
Which hey, I’m flattered and all but, I’m an old F with arthritis. Gimmie Breaka’

The complete algorithm for both match making and LB is given there:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm

To be brief, you are awarded LB points if you win when the odds were in your favor, or when you win when they were against you. You’re supposed to loose points when you loose when the odds are balanced or in your favor.

Since the second test season began, the amount of points you were awarded was too high compared to the number you were loosing. So players who played a lot were artificially getting higher on the LB. Grouch said yesterday that he adjusted this system, so I won’t talk about now.

The leaderboard will always be flawed as long as it caters to players who participate. If you don’t participate, you won’t get points. Those who participate more, will be rewarded more. Win ratio means mute unless they completely change the algorithm, which they haven’t =/

Saiyan.1704:

The leaderboard will always be flawed as long as it caters to players who participate. If you don’t participate, you won’t get points. Those who participate more, will be rewarded more. Win ratio means mute unless they completely change the algorithm, which they haven’t =/

Exactly. That’s why I was a bit surprised by the first post of this thread, saying it disfavored solo players. On the contrary, solo players can play more, since they don’t have to wait for their team. But somehow we lost track and no one aside from me cared to discuss the initial topic.

Sorel.4870:

Bob is an okay player
he plays turret engi.

Does
Not
Compute.

Sorel.4870:

Adam likes to face the best premades in the game. He likes close matches, good rotations, and playing with his friends.

- Bob doesn’t really care about rotations: he plays turret engi. He likes playin with strangers of his level.

- When his team is not online, Adam plays in unranked or in WvW/PvE, because he always want to give the very best in ranked.

- Meanwhile, Bob plays in ranked.

- Sometimes, Adam and his team play in unranked to test new comps.

- Meanwhile, Bob plays in ranked.

- Adam often duels his team mates or other good players, to make sure his mechanical skill is still sufficient.

- Meanwhile, Bob plays in ranked.

What’s the result in the end? Providing they have the same amount of free time to play the game, Bob will most likely be way above Adam in the LB! And it gets worse if Bob plays way more. The truth is, solo players should rarely reach the top of the LB, since the amount of skill it requires to play in top level teams is way beyond any soloq game. It doesn’t mean solo players are bad: it means there is a random component in soloq that doesn’t fit in a competitive game. I love solo queuing, but when I do, I know it’s just for casual fum.

I would give credit on how you elaborate things on this quote. Just to prove that, really in order to get a descent match you need to have a premade team for matchup. Which is my main point in posing this thread.

However, the fact that your perspective of soloq’ers are similar to a turret Engr is ridiculous. On top of that you have mentioned that premade teams bring the best out of a player. That’s your opinion i respect that, however, being on solo and carrying your team brings out your true skills (leadership and mechanical). I have played with my friends and been teamed up with random premade and believe me how easy the transition of game is. You probably might just played premade althroughout the entire pvp events that’s why you come up with this idea and could’nt handle to carry med to poor players and lead them to win.

My point still stands, if Josh thinks that disregarding soloq’ers on this game will bring out more players, then thats completely wrong. It is sad that the mechanics of the GW2 PVP is so far the best i’ve ever played, and i have been playing for decades. better not to mention my age but if things will not change players (who mainly supports the game whenever online purchasing is there) will fall out one by one and the reward money of 500 Euro will never ever get any better. Companies who sponsor game events like DOTA2 or others will never come and support the game.

Sorel.4870:

Since the second test season began, the amount of points you were awarded was too high compared to the number you were loosing. So players who played a lot were artificially getting higher on the LB. Grouch said yesterday that he adjusted this system, so I won’t talk about now.

The F is that then???? In other words, tough luck if you didn’t exploit the error before it was patched.

I’m guessing from the link, if my “team” of randoms doesn’t hit 400, then expect to lose points or no change. Basically, making matches a complete waste of time. Which makes sense since last Saturday I was on the bad side of blowout after blowout. Silly me, even if players left the match, I’d stick it out to the end. Which is probably why I lost so many points.

So I’m guessing the best thing for me to do is, wreck my mmr in Unranked? Then roll a turret Engi, que up the “Trolololo” song, and win in low mmr ranked matches?

DeWolfe.2174:

Sorel.4870:

Since the second test season began, the amount of points you were awarded was too high compared to the number you were loosing. So players who played a lot were artificially getting higher on the LB. Grouch said yesterday that he adjusted this system, so I won’t talk about now.

The F is that then???? In other words, tough luck if you didn’t exploit the error before it was patched.

I’m guessing from the link, if my “team” of randoms doesn’t hit 400, then expect to lose points or no change. Basically, making matches a complete waste of time. Which makes sense since last Saturday I was on the bad side of blowout after blowout. Silly me, even if players left the match, I’d stick it out to the end. Which is probably why I lost so many points.

So I’m guessing the best thing for me to do is, wreck my mmr in Unranked? Then roll a turret Engi, que up the “Trolololo” song, and win in low mmr ranked matches?

My sentiments exactly. I don’t normally afk even if the match is 100-400 in favor of the enemy but since Josh’s New PVP LB system in place i’m rethinking my PVP days in GW2.

Sorel gave me a good laugh today.
Basically, we have such o’great devs who have similar mindset as him and voila – current matchmaking + leaderboards.

So, I bought another character slot and rolled an Engi. Took my lil Asura “Dirty Turrets” straight into sPvP for a couple of matches. In one hour of rolling an Engi I was jokingly sworn at by opponents. Even called “a bit of a Noob but, OP” Meanwhile, I was thinking of my earlier post with this link the entire time playing…..

https://youtu.be/oavMtUWDBTM?t=2m3s

The only problem is, now my MMR is certainly higher.