Guild Wars 2

These skills are still better than stuns, as there is a delay before you can use a stunbreaker to escape one. In the current Burst/bunker meta, 1-2 seconds of 0 control over your character is long enough to watch most to all of your health disappear in a tPvP setting where players are coordinated. There is also a disparity between the amount of KD/KB/Pull/Launch between the classes – this results in classes with better access being stronger in group play.

You decided Basilisk venom was overpowered by depriving players 1 second of inescapable CC, how do you justify KB/KD/Pull/Launch still working this way?

by not being able to fix it … simple as that

Pray.9751:

by not being able to fix it … simple as that

I don’t follow. “Not being able to fix it”?

Stability, Dodge roll, Blind, Traits which reflect the CC ( I know at least a few classes have this), Use stun breaker when you hit the ground, CC the enemy first, there are plenty of ways to counter it, it’s definetly not OP.

Counter play doesn’t factor into this – you could counter Basilisk Venom any of the ways you just described, but it was still changed. You can’t dodge literally everything, and some classes have poor/no access to stability.

Once you’re hit with a KB/KD/Pull/Launch, there is a certain amount of time (usually around 1s, but some are longer) where your entire ability bar is locked. Stuns are in the game because CC is a vital part of coordinated MMO PvP; Stunbreakers are in the game because it’s silly to completely take a players control away without some way to counter it. Why are some “Stun like effects” better than others?

How would you feel if 3 out of 8 classes were given a stun that stunbreakers had no effect on? Would that be fair, or balanced?

I had to log in to comment on this one.

The CC/knockdown stun whatever you want to call it in this game are over the top.

If you want to keep them in the game then at least implement a diminishing return on subsequent effects.

Tonight I got pulled by an engineer who was on the ground, who proceeded to blow me up… when i landed I was pushed back by a mesmer into the gate point where a necro feared me… All in about 5-7 seconds.

Sure thats an extreme case but come on… even the game couldnt decide which angle to render the screen from.

As for the previous poster saying not being able to fix it… you guys have to keep in mind we’re playing a pve game with pvp as an after thought. Those abilities were not thought of with the ramifications of competitive gameplay but pve crap.

So what game is out that was made for PVP with PVE as an after thought?

I think the reason they can’t fix the CCs that render you airborne is because you can’t skill in the air, and judging by the nature of teleports, I gather you can’t air skill because you’d be able to teleport in mid air and do things like blink anywhere. (even into keeps)

Aquin.3192:

Tonight I got pulled by an engineer who was on the ground, who proceeded to blow me up… when i landed I was pushed back by a mesmer into the gate point where a necro feared me… All in about 5-7 seconds.

all countered by 1s of stability. get stability kids!

Dual.8953:

I think the reason they can’t fix the CCs that render you airborne is because you can’t skill in the air, and judging by the nature of teleports, I gather you can’t air skill because you’d be able to teleport in mid air and do things like blink anywhere. (even into keeps)

I have a suspicion that this was implemented because of underwater combat. I remember early on, they made some changes because you could jump out of water and buff yourself without putting skills on CD or something.

Dual.8953:

I think the reason they can’t fix the CCs that render you airborne is because you can’t skill in the air, and judging by the nature of teleports, I gather you can’t air skill because you’d be able to teleport in mid air and do things like blink anywhere. (even into keeps)

That sounds like an Anet issue that should be fixed, asap. I can understand that kittening about 1-2s of lost control sounds like I’m making a mountain out of a molehill, but in the current meta, 1s of lost control can easily be the difference between you at 80% and you fighting not to get stomped.

ANet already decided that inescapable CC was too strong (BV Change), whats with the hold up balancing all the other inescapable CC?

Every class has access to Stability in some way. Sure some classes need to sacrifice more to access it, but that is why every class is so different.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stability

MindlessRuff.1948:

Every class has access to Stability in some way. Sure some classes need to sacrifice more to access it, but that is why every class is so different.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stability

Thieves do not have access to stability. Unless you’re suggesting slotting daggerstorm, then dodge-rolling out of it. 8s of stability on a 90s CD.

The existence of stability does not negate the fact that some CC is stronger than other CC. I doubt ANet designed KD/KB/Push/Pull to be inescapable for x Seconds when applied.

I’ve seen some responses along the lines of “You should just avoid KB/KD/Pull/Launch (Dodge roll, blind), or neutralize it before hand(Stability)”

If that’s the case, why does any class get stunbreakers? Why aren’t they just dodging all the stuns, or blinding their target first, or throwing stability up? All those tactics work for stuns, Anet’s attitude could have been “Well, if you get stunned, eat it, you should have dodged/been immune”.
But wait, it isn’t.

The developers realized you couldn’t possibly dodge/blind/immune every source of control removal (Stuns, fears, etc), and gave every class stunbreakers. A separate class of control removing abilities that aren’t countered by stunbreakers the same way stuns are is broken and should be fixed.

evilapprentice.6379:

I’ve seen some responses along the lines of “You should just avoid KB/KD/Pull/Launch (Dodge roll, blind), or neutralize it before hand(Stability)”

If that’s the case, why does any class get stunbreakers? Why aren’t they just dodging all the stuns, or blinding their target first, or throwing stability up? All those tactics work for stuns, Anet’s attitude could have been “Well, if you get stunned, eat it, you should have dodged/been immune”.
But wait, it isn’t.

The developers realized you couldn’t possibly dodge/blind/immune every source of control removal (Stuns, fears, etc), and gave every class stunbreakers. A separate class of control removing abilities that aren’t countered by stunbreakers the same way stuns are is broken and should be fixed.

Stun breakers do work on the control abilities you mentioned at the start of the thread, you just have to wait until you hit the ground until you are able to use them.

MindlessRuff.1948:

evilapprentice.6379:

I’ve seen some responses along the lines of “You should just avoid KB/KD/Pull/Launch (Dodge roll, blind), or neutralize it before hand(Stability)”

If that’s the case, why does any class get stunbreakers? Why aren’t they just dodging all the stuns, or blinding their target first, or throwing stability up? All those tactics work for stuns, Anet’s attitude could have been “Well, if you get stunned, eat it, you should have dodged/been immune”.
But wait, it isn’t.

The developers realized you couldn’t possibly dodge/blind/immune every source of control removal (Stuns, fears, etc), and gave every class stunbreakers. A separate class of control removing abilities that aren’t countered by stunbreakers the same way stuns are is broken and should be fixed.

Stun breakers do work on the control abilities you mentioned at the start of the thread, you just have to wait until you hit the ground until you are able to use them.

Which is exactly my point. “You have to wait.”

You should not have to wait any amount of time before hitting a stunbreaker. Would it be fair if you have to wait Every time a warrior Frenzy->HB’d you? Or a thief BV->CnD->Steal->BS’d you?

No, It wouldnt. So why is it fair for KD/KB/Pull/Launch?

evilapprentice.6379:

MindlessRuff.1948:

evilapprentice.6379:

I’ve seen some responses along the lines of “You should just avoid KB/KD/Pull/Launch (Dodge roll, blind), or neutralize it before hand(Stability)”

If that’s the case, why does any class get stunbreakers? Why aren’t they just dodging all the stuns, or blinding their target first, or throwing stability up? All those tactics work for stuns, Anet’s attitude could have been “Well, if you get stunned, eat it, you should have dodged/been immune”.
But wait, it isn’t.

The developers realized you couldn’t possibly dodge/blind/immune every source of control removal (Stuns, fears, etc), and gave every class stunbreakers. A separate class of control removing abilities that aren’t countered by stunbreakers the same way stuns are is broken and should be fixed.

Stun breakers do work on the control abilities you mentioned at the start of the thread, you just have to wait until you hit the ground until you are able to use them.

Which is exactly my point. “You have to wait.”

You should not have to wait any amount of time before hitting a stunbreaker. Would it be fair if you have to wait Every time a warrior Frenzy->HB’d you? Or a thief BV->CnD->Steal->BS’d you?

No, It wouldnt. So why is it fair for KD/KB/Pull/Launch?

A thief can’t knock you in the air like a guardian can though, and a warrior can’t do it if he is planning to HB you.

MindlessRuff.1948:

evilapprentice.6379:

MindlessRuff.1948:

evilapprentice.6379:

I’ve seen some responses along the lines of “You should just avoid KB/KD/Pull/Launch (Dodge roll, blind), or neutralize it before hand(Stability)”

If that’s the case, why does any class get stunbreakers? Why aren’t they just dodging all the stuns, or blinding their target first, or throwing stability up? All those tactics work for stuns, Anet’s attitude could have been “Well, if you get stunned, eat it, you should have dodged/been immune”.
But wait, it isn’t.

The developers realized you couldn’t possibly dodge/blind/immune every source of control removal (Stuns, fears, etc), and gave every class stunbreakers. A separate class of control removing abilities that aren’t countered by stunbreakers the same way stuns are is broken and should be fixed.

Stun breakers do work on the control abilities you mentioned at the start of the thread, you just have to wait until you hit the ground until you are able to use them.

Which is exactly my point. “You have to wait.”

You should not have to wait any amount of time before hitting a stunbreaker. Would it be fair if you have to wait Every time a warrior Frenzy->HB’d you? Or a thief BV->CnD->Steal->BS’d you?

No, It wouldnt. So why is it fair for KD/KB/Pull/Launch?

A thief can’t knock you in the air like a guardian can though, and a warrior can’t do it if he is planning to HB you.

…what does that have to do with anything? The specific mechanics aren’t in question. I’m not saying “Remove all KB/KD/Pull/Launch” from the game. I’m just saying make it so that stunbreakers break them, Just like they do stuns, at any point during the effect.

evilapprentice.6379:

MindlessRuff.1948:

evilapprentice.6379:

MindlessRuff.1948:

evilapprentice.6379:

I’ve seen some responses along the lines of “You should just avoid KB/KD/Pull/Launch (Dodge roll, blind), or neutralize it before hand(Stability)”

If that’s the case, why does any class get stunbreakers? Why aren’t they just dodging all the stuns, or blinding their target first, or throwing stability up? All those tactics work for stuns, Anet’s attitude could have been “Well, if you get stunned, eat it, you should have dodged/been immune”.
But wait, it isn’t.

The developers realized you couldn’t possibly dodge/blind/immune every source of control removal (Stuns, fears, etc), and gave every class stunbreakers. A separate class of control removing abilities that aren’t countered by stunbreakers the same way stuns are is broken and should be fixed.

Stun breakers do work on the control abilities you mentioned at the start of the thread, you just have to wait until you hit the ground until you are able to use them.

Which is exactly my point. “You have to wait.”

You should not have to wait any amount of time before hitting a stunbreaker. Would it be fair if you have to wait Every time a warrior Frenzy->HB’d you? Or a thief BV->CnD->Steal->BS’d you?

No, It wouldnt. So why is it fair for KD/KB/Pull/Launch?

A thief can’t knock you in the air like a guardian can though, and a warrior can’t do it if he is planning to HB you.

…what does that have to do with anything? The specific mechanics aren’t in question. I’m not saying “Remove all KB/KD/Pull/Launch” from the game. I’m just saying make it so that stunbreakers break them, Just like they do stuns, at any point during the effect.

Agree CC with no activated counter is silly, stability is not a counter as it short duration and people can just wait a few seconds before chaining the combos.

Nah … now I am running a class with multiple KB/KD/Pull/Launch … so now they are perfectly fine.
On a serious note: You want more access to ways to counter these mechanisms? You are aware, that stability does work on several of them while stunbreakers only work on one, right? And I am not sure how you would implement it … if fx a mesmer is pulling you off the wall, and you in some miraculous way manage to press your stun breaker. Would you then be teleported back up, or would you rather be “free to fall down”? I understand the frustration (and share it at times), but I am not sure how to “fix it”.

Builds that revolve around CC-chains sacrifice something to achieve that (usually strait up damage but sometimes survival as well) If you have stability, you basically made them sacrifice that damage for nothing.

Yea you cant activate that stun-break/stability until after you land, but you can negate EVERY FOLLOWUP CC AFTER. Alternatively, lets say someone stuns me. I can immediately activate a pure stun-break that doesn’t give stability, then be hit by another stun afterwards, and i’m still stunned.

Stun-break is 1 time, instant solution to a stun. Stability might come out a little slower than a stun-break on a displacement skill, but it will also protect you from any follow up cc. Seems completely fine to me, and is the reason why i pack stability into most of my builds.

not only stunbreakers and stability counter this… try to use blind its more effective then it looks like

Poxxia.1547:

Nah … now I am running a class with multiple KB/KD/Pull/Launch … so now they are perfectly fine.
On a serious note: You want more access to ways to counter these mechanisms? You are aware, that stability does work on several of them while stunbreakers only work on one, right? And I am not sure how you would implement it … if fx a mesmer is pulling you off the wall, and you in some miraculous way manage to press your stun breaker. Would you then be teleported back up, or would you rather be “free to fall down”? I understand the frustration (and share it at times), but I am not sure how to “fix it”.

I don’t want more access to counter mechanisms – I want all control depriving mechanics on the same playing field. There shouldn’t be two classes of control depriving mechanisms in the game – one you can counter instantly (stuns), and one you can counter after a delay (KD/KB/Launch/Pull). I’m not saying a stunbreaker should counter the effect entirely, just return active control to the player immediately.

MaXi.3642:

not only stunbreakers and stability counter this… try to use blind its more effective then it looks like

I’ve already addressed this, so I’m just going to straight up copy/paste my previous post.

“I’ve seen some responses along the lines of “You should just avoid KB/KD/Pull/Launch (Dodge roll, blind), or neutralize it before hand(Stability)”

If that’s the case, why does any class get stunbreakers? Why aren’t they just dodging all the stuns, or blinding their target first, or throwing stability up? All those tactics work for stuns, Anet’s attitude could have been “Well, if you get stunned, eat it, you should have dodged/been immune”.

But wait, it isn’t.

The developers realized you couldn’t possibly dodge/blind/immune every source of control removal (Stuns, fears, etc), and gave every class stunbreakers. A separate class of control removing abilities that aren’t countered by stunbreakers the same way stuns are is broken and should be fixed."

Recently.1043:

Builds that revolve around CC-chains sacrifice something to achieve that (usually strait up damage but sometimes survival as well) If you have stability, you basically made them sacrifice that damage for nothing.

Yea you cant activate that stun-break/stability until after you land, but you can negate EVERY FOLLOWUP CC AFTER. Alternatively, lets say someone stuns me. I can immediately activate a pure stun-break that doesn’t give stability, then be hit by another stun afterwards, and i’m still stunned.

Stun-break is 1 time, instant solution to a stun. Stability might come out a little slower than a stun-break on a displacement skill, but it will also protect you from any follow up cc. Seems completely fine to me, and is the reason why i pack stability into most of my builds.

In the current burst-bunker meta, you don’t need a “CC-Chain” to drop or seriously hinder a player. There are builds for multiple classes designed to just dump damage as quickly as possible. The counter to these sorts of builds is to make them waste their big CD skills/enabling utilities by dodging, blocking, going immune, etc. If someone tries to stun you to set up this sort of play, hey, you’ve got your stunbreaker. If you are instead Knocked back, or launched, well hey, sucks to be you. This obviously is not a problem in hot-join. It takes coordination, and timing – the kind of stuff you see in tPvP.

Why do I have to convince people that all CC should be the same? One of the most attractive parts of GW2 PvP to me was “No gear grind”. Everyone on the same level. Why would people argue that some classes should have better CC (not better access, just better) than others?

Yeah, i always loath watching my character fly in the air whilst i spam my stun-breaker. I figured the reason was Anet had patched something in regards to people exploiting jumping in and out of water to avoid CDs when using skills a few months back or even during BWE’s (correct me if I’m wrong). The time/money saving method was to simply prevent skill usage while you’re in the air. There’s probably other reason like using some skills in the air could be ridiculous or game breaking (jumping HS anyone?). The correct method to fixing it could be done in several ways but all would take much more time/money to implement. But again, time/money, and the fact that only people who are quick to go for the stun-breaker will notice this is another reason Anet won’t fix it any time soon. I would be surprised if it’s fixed by the next big patch given the last patch was basically tying up loose ends on a bunch of skills that should have had combo fields/finishers at launch, some lolbuffs, and the new mesmer pimping skills.

I think they will eventually get around to it though since they did fix BV but that didn’t involve being in the air so it was an easy fix that impacted most of the player base.

Marked One.3125:

Yeah, i always loath watching my character fly in the air whilst i spam my stun-breaker. I figured the reason was Anet had patched something in regards to people exploiting jumping in and out of water to avoid CDs when using skills a few months back or even during BWE’s (correct me if I’m wrong). The time/money saving method was to simply prevent skill usage while you’re in the air. There’s probably other reason like using some skills in the air could be ridiculous or game breaking (jumping HS anyone?). The correct method to fixing it could be done in several ways but all would take much more time/money to implement. But again, time/money, and the fact that only people who are quick to go for the stun-breaker will notice this is another reason Anet won’t fix it any time soon. I would be surprised if it’s fixed by the next big patch given the last patch was basically tying up loose ends on a bunch of skills that should have had combo fields/finishers at launch, some lolbuffs, and the new mesmer pimping skills.

I think they will eventually get around to it though since they did fix BV but that didn’t involve being in the air so it was an easy fix that impacted most of the player base.

Well, that’s not really acceptable for an “E-sport”. Creating new issues every time you fix something isn’t acceptable, and it’s all Anet seems to do. Anets “Slow and steady” approach works well if you’re making constant changes, but once a month tiny changes “Just to see if they work out” is ineffective. Put up a test server – throw in some crazy changes and let the players test them, I’m sure they’d be eager to play when it means better balanced, functioning content on a quicker timeline. Worked well for RIFT (whether or not you liked the combat in that game is irrelevant, making sweeping changes and letting the playerbase vet them and fine tuning from there worked well).

Is Anet even aiming at E-sport anymore? I hear it brought up by players on the boards constantly, but their actions recently say otherwise. Thief got a bunch of underwater combat fixes (Read: PvE Fixes), and a couple token PvP changes, but they left a number of broken weapon skills and an entire non-functional weaponset for PvP unchanged. I’m sure other classes have gripes too, I don’t know their mechanics as intimately and am not qualified to comment.

Bumping this, because I’d rather not see it fade into obscurity. As ridiculous and improbable as this is, I’m hoping ANet will at least comment/notice the issue. As of yet, no one has given me a logical reason as to why this disparity between Stun and “Stun+” exists (people have explained the mechanical reason, but no logical reason is should continue to exist).

The difference has a large gameplay impact – when a burst Warrior stuns me and goes for Frenzy→HB’s, I rarely take more than a swing or 2 – I break the stun (Using my stunbreaker) and escape, as was designed. When a burst ele hits me with updraft, I might as well wave goodbye to a chunk of my health as they execute their pre-determined DPS rotation. Its almost as if they know for a fact where I’ll be long enough to get their rotation off, because there’s a delay before it can be broken. It’s silly, and should be fixed. (I’m not singling out just Ele’s, lots of high power/crit builds with a KD/KB/Pull/Launch can pull this off. I’m also not complaining about Ele’s using updraft – it’s not their fault its poorly designed by Anet)