Guild Wars 2

so how i see our elites dont want better and easier learning curve for “newbs” just better explanation how to beat Build X

so in the one and now closed Mesmer QQ Thread we asked for vids as example…. the answer is watch streams..

as summary:
we get l2p and should watch boring 3h streams with no feedback, why and what u need to do. in 99% they dont talk the audience and in the most time u just see how they jump with her asura in the mists from a to b, go to desktop repeadly and all the other nonsens. no explanation no talk to audience. still ugly music in the background.

i watched a lot of streams except for gasmask and tehmaker, the rest is booooooooooooring.

so a “newb” shall watch hour of hours of boring streams and guess why something is done, without access to actual used build and teamcomposition. that shall decrease the learning curve? really?

so to all “elites” out there if u want stop the qq and still not want better features for “newbs” like castbars.. at least go in forum open a topic how to beat XX with YY put on a explanation and an example vid with explanation in the vid. if not, stop talking always l2p. thats my suggestion cause it gets boring and hurts all discussions.

Oh there’s talking in streams. It’s just all a bunch of ego stroking and insulting the other team. If that was something someone wanted to listen to they could go to the nearest school playground for a few hours.

You seem to be describing the “Well it was hard for me… so it should be hard for you” mentality. It is characterized sometimes by pretending to give advice, but it is designed to confuse/discourage the person and give them the impression that the subject is more difficult than it actually is.

It might just be a case of wanting to stay at the top, and making it more difficult for people with potentially more inherent skill to catch up is an easy way to do that.

Call it “tryhard subterfuge”.

Sand Beagle.9867:

You seem to be describing the “Well it was hard for me… so it should be hard for you” mentality. It is characterized sometimes by pretending to give advice, but it is designed to confuse/discourage the person and give them the impression that the subject is more difficult than it actually is.

It might just be a case of wanting to stay at the top, and making it more difficult for people with potentially more inherent skill to catch up is an easy way to do that.

Call it “tryhard subterfuge”.

Maybe, but if someone has potentially more inherent skill I dont think they would come to the forums and qq in the first place, rather they would make the class thats beating them, learn how it plays, learn what it does, learn the weaknesses of the character, then modify their build or playstyle to counter said class.

I think people have gotten to used to the " gimme" mentality, and more people that are fed up with that are basically forcing " newbs" with that gimme mentality to actually do research, wether its by watching boring streams or by actually playing the class and getting better.

To help you OP, and i think this has been said a lot, AoE is your friend when fighting a mesmer, but AoE is only half the puzzle, you need experience fighting and playing a mesmer to get used to its movement.

Solori.6025:

Sand Beagle.9867:

You seem to be describing the “Well it was hard for me… so it should be hard for you” mentality. It is characterized sometimes by pretending to give advice, but it is designed to confuse/discourage the person and give them the impression that the subject is more difficult than it actually is.

It might just be a case of wanting to stay at the top, and making it more difficult for people with potentially more inherent skill to catch up is an easy way to do that.

Call it “tryhard subterfuge”.

Maybe, but if someone has potentially more inherent skill I dont think they would come to the forums and qq in the first place, rather they would make the class thats beating them, learn how it plays, learn what it does, learn the weaknesses of the character, then modify their build or playstyle to counter said class.

I think people have gotten to used to the " gimme" mentality, and more people that are fed up with that are basically forcing " newbs" with that gimme mentality to actually do research, wether its by watching boring streams or by actually playing the class and getting better.

To help you OP, and i think this has been said a lot, AoE is your friend when fighting a mesmer, but AoE is only half the puzzle, you need experience fighting and playing a mesmer to get used to its movement.

u dont understand it, i dont asking here for anything special. if u read the last two posts about mesmer or any posts about helping spvp by decreasing someting or implement something there a some posts of “elites” that has said explanations would help newbies and the ppl that qq against something.

so rather than jumping in threads where ppl qq against some build they just could make a vid of explanation how to beat it for the newbs to get a better competitive pvp communitity or just stay away from the threads than always yada yada its a “l2p”…
there is a difference between low and top tier. so i asking the top tier to tell the low tier how to beat build XX to improve the community, help the balance and getting more ppl to start growing in higher tier.

watching boring long stream as recommend from that “elites” is clearly no option.. there is soooo much boring stuff and 99.999999999% never ever an explanation in the streams why they dont some and what they do.

and btw saying “AOE is your friend” when fighting xxx is somehow stupid ikittennow AOE gets nerfed soon

and ur proposal playing a mesmer is the same old “l2p” phrase that gets thrown in every thread. not every ppl has the time to play certain profession to learn how to beat it. why its so hard to make a vid and show the “newbs” how u do it as XXX to beat something? i mean its not that time consuming like jumping in threads and throw “l2p” and start the same old discussion every time.

some ppl has mentionend suggestions to improve the learning curve for “newbs” that where declined by “elites” cause it would hurt top tier play and all is l2p.. so they want no improvement but are not willing to “teach”.. just yada yada yada “l2p”

I see, from your typing english isnt your first language, so I’m going to try and respond as best as possible

hooma.9642:

u dont understand it, i dont asking here for anything special. if u read the last two posts about mesmer or any posts about helping spvp by decreasing someting or implement something there a some posts of “elites” that has said explanations would help newbies and the ppl that qq against something.

so rather than jumping in threads where ppl qq against some build they just could make a vid of explanation how to beat it for the newbs to get a better competitive pvp communitity or just stay away from the threads than always yada yada its a “l2p”…
there is a difference between low and top tier. so i asking the top tier to tell the low tier how to beat build XX to improve the community, help the balance and getting more ppl to start growing in higher tier.

I could tell you what to do, and you would come back and say it doesnt work.
I could show you what to do, and you would still come back and say it doesnt work.
It has been a cycle that has continued since MMO’s introduced pvp. In some cases, what is said is false, and in others it works, but people dont comprehend how, and it never works for them, so they form the opinion that it wont work.
This is evident by the countless QQ threads that have spawned in this forum about 100b warriors, BS thieves, Guardians, Mesmers, and now Elementalist.

So then comes the response of doing research and EXPERIENCING the game from both your classes perspective and the class that gives you trouble.

watching boring long stream as recommend from that “elites” is clearly no option.. there is soooo much boring stuff and 99.999999999% never ever an explanation in the streams why they dont some and what they do.

Watching Streams is plenty viable, if you have a basic understanding of the game.
You start understand team composition,movement, changing situational power choices, etc.

But this doesnt come from just watching streams, you need to get your hand on the character and play it.

and btw saying “AOE is your friend” when fighting xxx is somehow stupid ikittennow AOE gets nerfed soon

You either dont know, or dont comprehend the power of AoE’s and how meaningless a nerf to them would be vs clones.
This is an example of what I was talking about, I tell you how counter a small problem, you say its stupid cause its gettin nerfed. While if you had actually picked up a mesmer you would know the auto attack from a staff guardian 1-2 shots clones,
Mighty blow one shots them and it can be used every 5 seconds
burning speed one shots clones

Pretty much every class in the game has a way to hinder a mesmer’s damage and defense in some form.
Unless they nerf AoE’s to do 30 damage, which realistically wont happen, you have a way to stop a clone factory, and limit major damage that could be done to you.

If you had picked up the class and learned more about it, this would be obvious to you

some ppl has mentionend suggestions to improve the learning curve for “newbs” that where declined by “elites” cause it would hurt top tier play and all is l2p.. so they want no improvement but are not willing to “teach”.. just yada yada yada “l2p”

Again this is a “gimme” mentality
If you want to learn the Why and How, it is YOUR responsibility to seek out the answers, not have them spoon fed to you.
Streams, youtube vids, guides ( which are also on EVERY class forum talking about the new build they found and how it works) and the option to bring a lvl 2 class to the mist and test/learn it are available to you.

I agree alot with Solori in this, alot of it comes from the fact people don’t play the class that kills them, for instance “2shot BS theives” people scream “OP ITS OP!” but do they realize that it is NOT that simple? that an inexperience theif is going to get himself killed? No, ofc not, because they don’t play it, and all they see is the end result of doing it right.

But on the flip side, i believe in One vs One, it gives you better understanding of the class that is hard to grasp in 3v3+ when so much is going on. It tells you the little things to look for to tell you when the big thing is coming. But even than, you need to at LEAST make the class, read all the skills, USE all the skills, and basic combos, on dummies and see them first hand. Is this boring? yes. Is it easy to learn a class? Not always. But this is a foundation that is NEEDED.

I play a mesmer, i have played ALOT of specs, and even created some of my own. And first off… Mesmer is NOT op. Most middle to high end players counter quite well, but we ARE a focused 1v1 class. This gives us a natural advantage there, and thats just how the class is. Does it have group set ups? Ofc, and they are pretty strong, but like said before, its hard to be a shatter mesmer and drop people when 2-3 other ppl are chain AEing EVERYTHNG.

I have always tried to help people, and anyone that needs help send a Message to Coretana and i will gladly take an hour of my time, or 2 if needed, and help you learn a mesmer, both palying, and fighting against. I have done this many times, and gladly will continue. I believe in a community effort to make a game better, and i will act as such as well.

u realize that nearly all class guides are about how to play a certain build and not how to beat a certain build with a certain build?

watching a stream of a team play tourney dont help even if u has fundamental understanding for the game cause it shows more how this teams plays and only is really viable if u already has a team to consider possible strategies in your play or how others play. but real teamplay grows by trying own strats.. in some aspect i find that these streams more hurt the community then they benefit. cause if i go in my team some talk more about what team xxx is doing. there is nearly always no asking why at what a the circumstances. they just see that this works very well for that team and start to copy. but its only my opinion. back towards teaching…

ur example was pretty bad, cause it was only against a small problem i even did not ask for and isnt a valid answer how to beat xxxx as yyy. even if AOE dont get nerfed so hard. and yes every class has something, but something is the problem why qq are coming.

i dont talk about mid tier players who has figured something out or high tier players. i talk about newbies, that most likely start to qq.. for them its no even valid to watch streams esp if they dont has a team to run with. so the stream will be likely in 95% of the time dont show them to beat something they struggle with.. its a complete timewaste.

yes u could tell what to do.. but the game doesnt tell the ppl what the enemy does.. thats why i think some suggestions like castbars are right for beginners and dont hurt top tier players, cause they already know what the enemy is doing. so the problem low tier player has is the amount of important animations to learn and to remember and then how to respond. that process is just to long and very frustrating, that it more hurts the community then it helps it. anet needs to do something about it. but as long there is nothing done “elites” need to jump in the gap or at least shut down theyre opinion about something that does not correspond to 90% of the pvp community and stop throwing “l2p” every where.

a vid that shows something and is clear explained is very unlikly that some one jumps out of it and reclaim it doesnt work, cause the vid shows that it works! the problem that some ppl form is opinion is the same problem with “l2p”. the ppl dont want understand that that is not a valid answer and that maybe some must be wrong if the most ppl dont know how to beat xxx. even small things, that dont affect a certain player base anymore, can bring a build out of balance.

so as summary i can understand that ppl think its the responsibility of the newbs to inform and learn. but then i cant understand that ignorant about the issues of the newbs and just always anser its l2p or crash suggestions that some ppl do to improve the learning for newbs.

in the moment i think Sand Beagle is completly right. they want to stand on the top on one side but on the other side they act like they want a competition. if u want competition u has something to do, that consist more of throwing “l2p” in some posts or write u must do that or that. the complete fight consists of animations, thats why teaching vids are needed and if the “elites” really want competition and they need to do more than actual.

so either do some vids and show how, then u can throw l2p and point to the vid or just be silence and dont act like u care about the problems some ppl has if u dont want try to understand theyre point of view and answer with l2p or crash suggestions others do. thats all i ask for.

cause actual the forum gets pretty nasty and boring. some side has issues with something and qq. the other side dont try to understand why they has the issues, throw some l2p and maybe some tips out of relation. and then at a certain point the discuss start that leads to rants and few days later the same begins again.

that is no processing and dont helps any of us. if i go in other game forums i can find so many tips and tricks and helping stuff thats impressive and shows how good the community in this game works together and has grown and ppl on the top of pvp stand there cause the are the best and not the ppl with the most time or best memory like here.

Oranz.5917:

But on the flip side, i believe in One vs One, it gives you better understanding of the class that is hard to grasp in 3v3+ when so much is going on. It tells you the little things to look for to tell you when the big thing is coming. But even than, you need to at LEAST make the class, read all the skills, USE all the skills, and basic combos, on dummies and see them first hand. Is this boring? yes. Is it easy to learn a class? Not always. But this is a foundation that is NEEDED.

if that is needed for a newb with a certain build to beat a certain other build of another newb then the game is more unbalanced then the most of u can imagine. ur example with the thief is the best example, the reward on some classes after invested time against other classes are to high. thats leads to qq and either anets nerfs them to the amount of same requirement or we answer qq at the best possible solution that is available. thats via teaching vids.

it is out of balance to pick a build maybe watch the vids that shows the combo that needs to be done. there a plenty that show that btw. go in the mists and kills in > 70% the opponent of the same skill. so the opponent has 4 possiblities:

1. go in forum and qq
2. pick the class that beats him
3. leave pvp
4. watch for guides to beat xxx

so he did not find 4 that leads to 1. 2 is only valid for few of them who has the time playing a class they dont want only to learn how to counter it.

there is to much forcing the ppl to do that and that that it cripple the progression to hard we need to get more attention from anet, cause we has bigger base.

if u build a house u start from the bottom

I agree about the general attitude from a lot of players, i’ve seen this a lot over the years as i mostly only play competitive games, but this is prevalent in pve as well. To be sure there are a lot of helpful players on these forums, but some are only interested in staying on top, or in the high-tier. It is kind of unfortunate, but that’s how it is.

Basically the players who are truly good (ie have innate skill) are more willing to help others because they know (even unconsciously) that they will always be on top regardless of the competition; think of them as sayians or goku.

Competitive bad players or “try hards” who are good due to an experience difference or use of cheese/gimmick builds etc are generally the ones who are less inclined to illuminate/educate new players, and are more likely to try to discourage them from trying; think of them as Hercule/Mr Satan.

The actual pvp system is also to blame though. Hotjoins do considerable damage to the pvp community and the bad habits/information learned in them are hard to correct.

There is also no [NEW] guild implemented in GW2 (afaik), which exists in most pvp games that is a community run “conglomeration” mega-guild featuring prominent members from each of the top guilds as well as experienced and knowledgable solo players, who collaborate and assist new players by teaching them basic and advanced class/build/map/team strategy in game and over VOIP.

That could also go a long way.

hooma.9642:

u realize that nearly all class guides are about how to play a certain build and not how to beat a certain build with a certain build?

Ok, lets say someone fights you with your exact class, your exact build, and your exact playstyle.

You would automatically know what they are doing, what build they are, and why they do certain things because you have experience, you have played the class.
You have some aspect of Foreknowledge.

Thats what I and many others tell people with issue’s that are class and build related.
Play the class, get experience with the class, watch others with experience with the class, read about different builds and why it works with the class.
When you have the knowledge of a class, when you know its inner workings, its strenghts and weaknesses.
You, by yourself will learn how to counter
You, through research and experience will grow to be a better pvp’er.

This is how those people that were and are at the top got their.

Why is it hard for people who want to be better to do the same, especially since it has gotten easier with the availability of guides,streams, and youtube vids?

people at the top didnt have streams to watch, nor did they have youtube vids, and the majority of people during this games infancy only had theorycrafted, untested builds.

They didnt get better overnight, but they tried.

THEY TRIED AND LEARNED.

ur example was pretty bad, cause it was only against a small problem i even did not ask for and isnt a valid answer how to beat xxxx as yyy. even if AOE dont get nerfed so hard. and yes every class has something, but something is the problem why qq are coming.

You dont know the workings of the class, how do you know then if my example was bad or not?
I gave you a strategy that has worked since beta- AoE-

I dont think I need to answer why people QQ do I?

i dont talk about mid tier players who has figured something out or high tier players. i talk about newbies, that most likely start to qq.. for them its no even valid to watch streams esp if they dont has a team to run with. so the stream will be likely in 95% of the time dont show them to beat something they struggle with.. its a complete timewaste.

The newbs that have a desire to get better usually dont come to the forum to QQ.
Key word is desire

When someone wants to get better, they take advantage of ways to get better.
They formulate, they create,they test, they grow.

Same thing every mid and high tier player did.

yes u could tell what to do.. but the game doesnt tell the ppl what the enemy does..

This game has some of the most overdramatic visual que’s i have seen in a long time.

I could understand people that are half blind, but for the majority of others that isnt the case.
And something the devs stated in a blog during beta
This game wont have cast bars you have to watch, instead your eyes should be focused on the enemy in game.
Its why the elementalist Pheonix skill from beta was nerfed visually to this unimpressive bland bird ( my opinion on it, others may love this new version)

so as summary i can understand that ppl think its the responsibility of the newbs to inform and learn. but then i cant understand that ignorant about the issues of the newbs and just always anser its l2p or crash suggestions that some ppl do to improve the learning for newbs.

Im all for helping people learn, but i refuse to spoon feed.
If im putting forth the effort to help someone deal with a build by giving them my build, explaining how it works and dueling them in one of the many empty 5 v 5 rooms in spvp, I expect that same person to put forth the effort to learn why and how it works, and what they can do.

That can only be done with research and experience.
Something that every player has the capability to do.

in the moment i think Sand Beagle is completly right. they want to stand on the top on one side but on the other side they act like they want a competition. if u want competition u has something to do, that consist more of throwing “l2p” in some posts or write u must do that or that. the complete fight consists of animations, thats why teaching vids are needed and if the “elites” really want competition and they need to do more than actual.

take this example, since we are talking about competitive sports.
Do you know what football teams do to counter plays?
They watch the play, and they watch for the signs of weakness within that play, then they scrimmage amongst themselves and test counter plays, and during that time the coaches and the team learn the signs for that play and what can be done to counter it.

the same thing applies to GuildWars or any MMO.

Solori.6025:

When someone wants to get better, they take advantage of ways to get better.
They formulate, they create,they test, they grow.

and they ask for help.

People have the tendency to assume asking for help is cheap and weak, and feel that since they had to do it the “hard way,” so should everyone else. This is a common logical flaw that is self flattering and ignorant, but it is very prevalent in competitive games.

This type of mindset leads to elitism, and a bunch of high and pro-teir elitists withholding their knowledge is the very last thing GW2 needs right now.

Sand Beagle.9867:

Solori.6025:

When someone wants to get better, they take advantage of ways to get better.
They formulate, they create,they test, they grow.

and they ask for help.

And I and many others offer ways to help, by giving them strategies that work, referring them to guides of builds, posting the builds we use, streams,telling them to roll the class and do a few spvp games , and if requested duel in an empty spvp room.( some of my guild mates have done this and they are soo much better for it).

The knowledge is all here if you try and look for it.

I know very few respectable pvp’ers that turn down the chance to help a newbie who actually wants to get better.
Like was said earlier, a lot of people that believe themselves “pro” because they smashed their face on keys and won with a gimmick build are also the ones telling people to L2P and not offer anytype of help whatsoever.
No one should care for those people, and im sorry to whoever has the misfortune of meeting said players.

But in every community you have a grinch and a troll.

( I like onions)

If it hasnt already been done, i think it is time for the top guilds and players to form a [NEW] guild to help with the learning curve problem.
Their first (and second huehue) rule should be: Talk to everyone about [NEW]
The third rule: No hotjoins, evar, period.
:)

Sand Beagle.9867:

If it hasnt already been done, i think it is time for the top guilds and players to form a [NEW] guild to help with the learning curve problem.
Their first (and second huehue) rule should be: Talk to everyone about [NEW]
The third rule: No hotjoins, evar, period.
:)

I think it would be cool as a community to start a guild called [NEW]

I wish their was a way to have custom chat channels, cause then we could start a pvp channel for the community where new people could come in, ask questions, ask for help via duels or team games ( cause we do have 5 v 5 now), and get to know everyone in the pvp community

ok, i started to read all this, but I’m not going to, this is bllkitten, plain and simple. You want to get better, but you want it all handed to you. You want guides for things, but in reality you are talking about multi thousand guides. in JUST 1v1 vids we are talking about AT LEAST 20 different builds across 8 classes. So you are talking about give or take 350 combinations, removing the repeats and such. Im not in the mood to figure the exact number but im not far off. and THATS 1v1 ONLY. things change in a 2v2, 3v2, 1v2 ext.

So what do you want exactly? us to all stop playing and help out people that MIGHT become real players by making hundreds of videos… fk that

We told you what the problem is, this game works of knowledge and experience, plain and simple. sorry the game doesnt just hand you hundreds of in depth videos and that you have to take the time to be a good PvPer. This isnt PvE, this is a action, and reaction combat system.

Sorry, but someone needs to be an kitten and jsut tell you the hard facts, if you want to be good it takes work, time and EFFORT. We all started as newbs and those in mid-high and high range pvp did it by WORKING. We never had videos, and we SURE as hell didnt have 100s of post about solid builds/streaming like you do now, so we have already giving you more resources than we had. If you wont help yourself why shouldnt you get trolled? Yes some players are arrogant and dont really want to help, but you have made it clear you just want hand outs

Mesmers and thiefs have a high initial skill curve.
I find in people rank 1-10 these classes cause the most trouble and often defeat people.

AS you get higher into more competitive play (like joining paid tounries instead of hotjoins) you get more and more players who know how to counter and beat them.
I see engineers/thiefs beat mesmers at a reasonable ratio. also vice versa.
Necros/rangers/eles tend to win the bulk of there fights vs mesmers.
Warriors, not soo good against mesmers for the most part (skill equal).

If you want the ‘eastiest’ class to fight against mesmers, roll a trap ranger. Skill being equal a trap ranger will beat a shatter mesmer 90% of the time, if not more in a 1on1 if thats the concern.

The issue withe mesmer (and thief) isnt that they are OP. its that they punish mistakes hard, good playres make less mistakes and so the class levels out alot vs them.
Nobody is arguing mesmers arent a good class, they certainly are. But, i just dont find them anything special to deal with.
Eles and trap rangers give me more trouble than mesmers any day.

daydream.2938:

Mesmers and thiefs have a high initial skill curve.
I find in people rank 1-10 these classes cause the most trouble and often defeat people.

AS you get higher into more competitive play (like joining paid tounries instead of hotjoins) you get more and more players who know how to counter and beat them.
I see engineers/thiefs beat mesmers at a reasonable ratio. also vice versa.
Necros/rangers/eles tend to win the bulk of there fights vs mesmers.
Warriors, not soo good against mesmers for the most part (skill equal).

If you want the ‘eastiest’ class to fight against mesmers, roll a trap ranger. Skill being equal a trap ranger will beat a shatter mesmer 90% of the time, if not more in a 1on1 if thats the concern.

The issue withe mesmer (and thief) isnt that they are OP. its that they punish mistakes hard, good playres make less mistakes and so the class levels out alot vs them.
Nobody is arguing mesmers arent a good class, they certainly are. But, i just dont find them anything special to deal with.
Eles and trap rangers give me more trouble than mesmers any day.

And a question for you day.
How did you get better against mesmers?

Solori.6025:

daydream.2938:

Mesmers and thiefs have a high initial skill curve.
I find in people rank 1-10 these classes cause the most trouble and often defeat people.

AS you get higher into more competitive play (like joining paid tounries instead of hotjoins) you get more and more players who know how to counter and beat them.
I see engineers/thiefs beat mesmers at a reasonable ratio. also vice versa.
Necros/rangers/eles tend to win the bulk of there fights vs mesmers.
Warriors, not soo good against mesmers for the most part (skill equal).

If you want the ‘eastiest’ class to fight against mesmers, roll a trap ranger. Skill being equal a trap ranger will beat a shatter mesmer 90% of the time, if not more in a 1on1 if thats the concern.

The issue withe mesmer (and thief) isnt that they are OP. its that they punish mistakes hard, good playres make less mistakes and so the class levels out alot vs them.
Nobody is arguing mesmers arent a good class, they certainly are. But, i just dont find them anything special to deal with.
Eles and trap rangers give me more trouble than mesmers any day.

And a question for you day.
How did you get better against mesmers?

The biggest thing is being able to spot the real mesmer quickly. There are several tells.
1. way they move, if they strafe, back up, cast a spell, its the real mesmer. The clones dont hold the mesmer off hand weapon. Also the real mesmer has more buffs on him, vigor is a dead giveaway alot of mesmers have this buff.

2. Shatter combo has a huge tell, the mesmer will raise his hands above his head and super fast clone will run out to you. Once it gets to you he ports to replace himself with it and thats when he does his blurred frenzy/shatter combo. Roll a mesmer and do the shatter combo, once you learn to identify this super fast clone coming at you, u know exactly when hes going to port to switch placs and shatter. Dodging that clone is important, or using a defensive cooldown then so u dont get destroyed.

3. mesmers are super vunerable to conditions. And even more so to aoe conditions. Like i said, if your playing a ranger the immobolize trap will often snag the clones half way to you and prevent the shatter from reaching you. Many mesmer specs run NO condition removal at all. In fact, its nearly IMPOSSIBLE to beat a good trap ranger with a mesmer.

Also, theres some good streamers who duel alot. like teldoo on his engy duels mesmers alot-and good mesmers in top ranked paid teams. He wins his fair share, and thats on an engy, so hes someone to watch for.