Lack of viable builds
Personally I think all of the weapons available to a profession should be viable in SPvP.
I play Warrior, Guardian, Elementalist and Thief.
Agree.
There are a lot of balancing to do.
Some professions have almost every builds viable, some have just one, others have none.
In my opinion, there should be a mass build balancing in PvP to make every build viable the same way. Here is my suggestions:
Warriors:
- Greatsword nerf: quickness GS build is overused and overeffective. There should be a slight nerf on that build to encourage to experiment more options.
- Mace buff: it is underperforming, mostly because it is more fitting with a defensive build. There should be a slight buff on warrior defensive capabilities.
- Sword right now is quite underused, probably because none thinks that running condition is a good choice when you have more effective build so play. After the GS nerf, we’ll see more sword warrios imho.
- Bow buff: bow is quite underperforming right now, probably because of its weakness but it is the only AoE weapon of warriors. Imo, there should be a buff to the AoE capability of bow to make warriors more useful when ranged AoE is needed.
Other weapons are fine. Probably I’d like to see a slight nerf on Volley damage, because it is far too high on a condition weapon.
Guardians:
- Defensive capability nerf and offensive capability buff: There should be a nerf on the overall defensive capabilities because, right now, it is the only played guardian build. So I’d like to see more offensive shouts and utility skills and less defensive ones.
- Mace buff: none is using it right now and it is quite unviable in any way.
To me, this is more than enough to see way more variety in the guardian side.
Rangers:
- Spirit buff: rangers really need it. Spirits are just useless.
- Greatsword buff: right now greatsword is underperforming compared to sword, there is no reason at all to use that weapon over any other set.
- Shortbow change: shortbow was already nerfed but it is not enough. Like it is now, the autoattack is more than enough in any situation. There should be less condition spamming capability and encourage the use of other skills to be effective.
Engineers:
Haven’t played enough to say something.
Thieves:
- D/D nerf: there is really no other build which is more effective than D/D. Backstab needs a slight damage nerf and Assassin Signet needs a functionality change. CnD need to cost a bit more initiative and than D/D should be fine.
- Pistol buff: right now, pistol is the most underused weapon among thieves. There should be a buff to the overall effectiveness of pistol, also to the dual skills when paired to dagger.
- Stealth fix: stealth should end when you use a skill, no matters if you miss or not. Also it should give a little clue on where the thief is when you hit him with a skill. There should be also a buff to the Shadow Art traitline, which is not worth spending trait points because Stealth is just as effective if you spec or not in Shadow Arts.
- Steal skills balance: some of them are way overperforming, it is clear to everyone. Because they are occasional skill it is right that they are a bit more effective that normal skills, but right now some are just way more powerful than others (on Warriors and on Necros).
Elementalists:
Haven’t played tham that much, can’t really suggest some balancing.
Mesmers:
- Moa wipe: that skill shouldn’t be in the game, period. Give Mesmers another Elite skill, but take that joke out.
- Phantasms nerf: right now, damage of phantasms is way to high coupled with conditions they can apply. There should be not a nerf on the raw phantasms damage, but on the traits that buff phantasms which are way too much and way too effective.
I’ve not played mesmer that much (only tried the op gimmick build which are around), but I’m sure some weapon sets need a buff because of they poor effectiveness. Obviously not Sword/Pistol, Staff or Greatsword.
Necromancers:
- Axe buff: that weapon is a joke. The damage is low, it is slow and it is absolutely weak and underperforming.
- Dagger MH rework: right now, dagger feels more like the only burst Necro weapon and not like the vampiric one. There should be more viability on vampiric builds when running Dagger MH.
- Staff Autoattack rework/buff: probably the weakest in the game, there should be a real rework of that skill.
- Overall traitline rework: there are some minor traits which are just awful. Most Necros prefer to not have any trait at all that have traits like Reanimator. Traits synergy is awful. some traits that makes a build effective are spread among more traitlines, Minion Master, for instance, have to spec in 3 traitlines (Death, Blood and Spite) to make only their minions effective.
- More minion control: right now they are the weakest pets in the game. You have no control at all and their AI is just awful. There should be some rework and fixes to minion but right now as they are, they are unviable in any way except as meat shields in PvE.
That’s all.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
Warriors:
- Greatsword nerf: quickness GS build is overused and overeffective. There should be a slight nerf on that build to encourage to experiment more options.- Sword right now is quite underused, probably because none thinks that running condition is a good choice when you have more effective build so play. After the GS nerf, we’ll see more sword warrios imho.
Other weapons are fine. Probably I’d like to see a slight nerf on Volley damage, because it is far too high on a condition weapon.
I’m trying to understand this “logic”. Warrior condition builds are complete kitten, every other class that build for conditions does it far more effectively/quickly. Yet your line of thinking is that “swords/condition warriors are weak, so if we nerf the stuff that works to be weak as well then people might play them”. What?
It’s like saying your bicycle is underused on the freeway so if we pour sugar in your cars gas tank you might ride your bike more.
Blackwater Vanguard
Yaks Bend
Yaks Bend
Warriors:
- Greatsword nerf: quickness GS build is overused and overeffective. There should be a slight nerf on that build to encourage to experiment more options.- Sword right now is quite underused, probably because none thinks that running condition is a good choice when you have more effective build so play. After the GS nerf, we’ll see more sword warrios imho.
Other weapons are fine. Probably I’d like to see a slight nerf on Volley damage, because it is far too high on a condition weapon.
I’m trying to understand this “logic”. Warrior condition builds are complete kitten, every other class that build for conditions does it far more effectively/quickly. Yet your line of thinking is that “swords/condition warriors are weak, so if we nerf the stuff that works to be weak as well then people might play them”. What?
It’s like saying your bicycle is underused on the freeway so if we pour sugar in your cars gas tank you might ride your bike more.
Actually Sword isn’t that weak. The fact is that it isn’t worth running when you have way more powerful weapon like greatsword. Just look at your autoattacks.
They deal 8 seconds of bleeding, way more if traited, and has a really good damage. Sword really doesn’t look UP, it is just that no warrior prefer conditions over quickness hb or Axe.
Other professions can’t build conditions more quickly than sword and also they don’t have the raw damage sword has.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
This is just the nature of competitive gameplay. Players want to win, so naturally they will play the best builds. This is called the metagame, and you will see it in all competitive games. And no matter how many times you patch a game, players will always end up finding something that is better then something ells. The only reason that some professions seem to be more diverse now, is because there is no real competitive game mode yet. Once paid tournaments have been around for a while, you will see very few build variations for all the professions.
There are really only two solutions to this.
1. Stick to playing non-tournament sPvP, or Worlds PvP
2. Become an amazing profession builder and lead the metagame
80 Ranger | 80 Mesmer | 80 Thief | 80 Guardian | 40 Engineer
“The learned is happy, nature to explore. The fool is happy, that he knows no more.”
-Alexander Pope
“The learned is happy, nature to explore. The fool is happy, that he knows no more.”
-Alexander Pope
(edited by Kasama.8941)
Mace only works with defensive builds? I guess if that’s your idea of low level viability because you lack skill level. Like no offense but that’s just the issue with mace. Seriously Mace + Shield stun lock combos with a glass cannon set-up is pretty good, just that no one has the balls to actually try to make plays with glass cannon Mace + GS. A simple slight attack speed buff on Mace’s 1 would be nice. All it should need honestly.
And no GS shouldn’t need any nerfs. Most people are saying they can see HB coming so therefore its fine as is. Therefore most people are okay with HB. You don’t fix something that isn’t broken.
About condition damage, you can’t simply stack bleed. You have to have a long bow to maximize it. The fact that long bow has possibly unintended bugs such as F1 not working when you’re blinded makes it a very unforgiving weapon. And now that people are actually putting Necros in their teams which hard counters the hell out of condition damage, you don’t want to nerf GS. Add to the fact that the adrenaline system is unforgiving for long bow.. which needs to use F1 the most.
Since people are negative about nerfs, how about we buff to balance then?
(edited by Schwahrheit.4203)
I would like more viable builds on my elementalist, feels like I’m obligated to spend all my points in earth/water/arcane :/
Seen an elementalist build that nearly make them unkillable. They barely DPS but I have more luck killing a straight bunker tank than whatever this elementalist build is they use. Basically moving around very fast, chilling over and over, hardly taking any damage while also healing.
Tavanyl
Mace/Shield for guardian is a staple set for perpetual healadin builds. Don’t know why you wouldn’t think that’s viable, it’s one of the best sets for a bunker, especially a meditation or consecration based bunker.
Jumzi (Ranger), Tarnished Coast
Can’t quote again.
@Bohab, it is true elementalist has a lot of tricks to slow down, heal, get off, but it’s basicly because we’re being forced into that spec and it deals less than average damage. If we trait otherwise, we die extremely fast, still without doing much damage.
@Schwahrheit: any occasion is nice to argue about anyone’s skill here on the forum, right? If someone thinks different than you, it doesn’t really mean that he is unskilled and you are skilled.
Mace as it is now, in my opinion, it is unviable. If you want to run a stunlock build there isn’t nothing that let you chose a mace over an hammer.
You see that HB is broken when everyone uses it, but you are right, in some aspect, HB itself isn’t broken, what is broken is quickness, which fits insanely well with HB. Quickness nerf should be the first priority in balancing, imho. There should be an IAS similiar to Guild Wars, only +33% attack speed and way less cooldown, +100% is just stupid.
@ayedenunited: you are right, virtually speaking mace is the best fitting weapon for a bunker but the fact is that none is running that weapon due to insanely low attack speed. Using Hammer/Sword/Scepter is way better.
That’s a misleading opinion because Mace + Shield is VIABLE. Just understand that people like me will be in a sour disposition if you feed others WRONG information.
More viable than Axe + Shield ever well be if I might add. Is it right for someone getting C’s and D’s to say “It’s not fair because I wasn’t born smart.?” Did not mean anything right there but you get my point. You don’t get to tell everyone that you have to be born smart to be smart. Same with Mace, you don’t say it isn’t viable when DID NOT have the decency to check its full potential out. And its full potential is very devastating specially when you have the balls to go glass cannon and make plays around it. I’ll give you an example. “Unsuspecting Foe” says hi and plays can be made around it. Much easier than making plays around Hammer.
And no, you don’t simply take away Quickness when there are more broken things in the game. The quickness has incentive, and you don’t simply take away quickness because of the incentive. Again and I hate to repeat myself, casuals should NEVER have a say in balance because it will hurt both the casual world AND the competitive world.
Since people are negative about nerfs, how about we buff to balance then?
(edited by Schwahrheit.4203)
There isn’t much too it other than one build will always put out the most damage, one build will always be the best bunker, ect. It is impossible to make this kind of game, where there are multiple classes and multiple “trees” completely 4000% balanced. One build will always be the best. Thats when skill come into play, you could have the best build and still be terrible. Skill > Build any day of the week.
Wanted to add on why pick Mace + Shield over Hammer.
1.) Reliable stun lock on a single target.
2.) Can force stun breaks better due to #1. You’re telling me being able to reliably force stun breaks doesn’t help your team? Hammer can get blinded at the last second whether or not the enemy is intending to do that or not. At least Mace has it easier.
3.) Makes better use of Unsuspecting Foe (This mastery will make you reach 100% critical rate, tried and tested) because Shield Bash and Skull Crack have low delay. Not like Earth Shake.
4.) Look at #3, now make combos such as Shield Bash > Whirlwind attack or Bola > Skull Crack > HB or Skull Crack > something with an Axe and enjoy actually dealing damage because you now have approximately 90% critical rate on stunned foes.
Since people are negative about nerfs, how about we buff to balance then?
That’s a misleading opinion because Mace + Shield is VIABLE. Just understand that people like me will be in a sour disposition if you feed others WRONG information.
More viable than Axe + Shield ever well be if I might add. Is it right for someone getting C’s and D’s to say “It’s not fair because I wasn’t born smart.?” Did not mean anything right there but you get my point. You don’t get to tell everyone that you have to be born smart to be smart. Same with Mace, you don’t say it isn’t viable when DID NOT have the decency to check its full potential out. And its full potential is very devastating specially when you have the balls to go glass cannon and make plays around it. I’ll give you an example. “Unsuspecting Foe” says hi and plays can be made around it. Much easier than making plays around Hammer.
And no, you don’t simply take away Quickness when there are more broken things in the game. The quickness has incentive, and you don’t simply take away quickness because of the incentive. Again and I hate to repeat myself, casuals should NEVER have a say in balance because it will hurt both the casual world AND the competitive world.
This is your opinion and you should’t have the presumption to think that is an absolute truth. The main difference between my opinion and yours is that mine is supported by the overall statistics. If mace was that good as you’re saying, we would probably see most players running mace but, right now, I’m sure that the warriors running mace you have seen in your whole PvP experience are less than 5%.
Also, making the assumption that I’m a casual player doesn’t help your cause.
Quickness is mainly the reason of most broken builds around here. The simple fact that quickness litterally double your attacking speed and most likely the damage output is a true kick in the balls into balancing, expecially if you consider that not every profession has access to it.
Quickness means that your target needs twice faster reflexes to survive your spike, which is absolutely stupid considering that the downsides aren’t that heavy.
Did you played Guild Wars? Frenzy, back that time, gave only +33% attack speed and the damage taken while in frenzy were doubled. You would say that this skill is trash and none used it, but it was a must on every warrior build and, trust me or not, warriors required actually some skills to choose the right time when to enter in frenzy because, if you went in Frenzy with a wrong timing, you probably have died or you are almost dead. Now there is absolutely no skills required to land your quickness combo, you just have to push the button and unload all your high damage skills and, if the target isn’t really good, it is dead. You see, the skill level required to land a kill isn’t equal to the skill level required to prevent that kill, which is a clear sign of a balance issue.
There isn’t much too it other than one build will always put out the most damage, one build will always be the best bunker, ect. It is impossible to make this kind of game, where there are multiple classes and multiple “trees” completely 4000% balanced. One build will always be the best. Thats when skill come into play, you could have the best build and still be terrible. Skill > Build any day of the week.
This is absolutely not true.
ArenaNet made an awesome job in Guild Wars and skills there were way more than they are now, I’m sure that perfect balance is a more accessible goal with Guild Wars 2 and I’m sure they’ll get better balance they got with Guild Wars, we just need to give them time.
Also that’s not true that if you are running the best build and you are bad you aren’t going to win and Thieves and HB warriors proves that.
I’ve runned those builds without having any experience with and I succeded the same way I did with my Necromancer (also better), which I played since release and I think I’m in a not so bad point of its learning curve.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
All I hear from casuals is “this isn’t viable because I haven’t had the decency to try it out.” Key Word is decency by the way. That’s what you lack, you just talk out of your kitten and say things that aren’t even true because its almost as if you do not have any credibility in arguments. And when I mean credibility, have experience before you talk. Don’t even base it off the majority who does not bring anything into an argument. In short, don’t base it off of people who can’t prove anything. Because one counter example can be enough since it isn’t really hard to make Mace viable with half a brain.
Since people are negative about nerfs, how about we buff to balance then?
(edited by Schwahrheit.4203)
I can’t vouch for other classes, but I play mesmer, and I ran staff/sword+pistol. I’ve recently replaced sword+pistol w/ GS. I will not go back. I seem to be having much more success.
You can make it work. Strategize better
Back Door Beauty [MUF]
builds for me are the most enjoyable part of the game. Id love it if they really just opened it up so players could invent near infinite amounts of builds and when nerf calls comes dont act on them instead give it time and wait for new builds to counter.
Its when developers restrict players and iron out all the creativity that the game goes bad and turns into a grey goo.
At the moment there are not enough builds.
Alot of people go for the most common weapons in the start like for Guardian; Greatsword, sword+shield, hammer because It’s what their told to use. When I first started playing I went for scepter+shield/Greatsword. But now I’m using PvE: scepter+shield/sword+torch PvP: scepter+focus/sword+torch. It might seem like It’s alot of the same atm, but give it a few more weeks and it will add out. I’m starting to see more and more variations during my sPvP matches.
Amarths – Norn Guardian
SGC Guild recruiting new players [Underworld Server] – PM me
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Key Word is decency by the way. That’s what you lack, you just talk out of your kitten and say things that aren’t even true because its almost as if you do not have any manners in arguments. And when I mean manners, have experience before you talk.
Dude, really? In almost every thread you are the one that comes off as aggro, angsty and disrespectful to anyone who has an opposing opinion from the one you present.
Kettle/pot much?
Blackwater Vanguard
Yaks Bend
Yaks Bend
I should’ve simply said he was simply talking out of his kitten in regards to Mace when he hasn’t even tried to seek out its potential. That was just legit bad wording on my part. Now that I look at it “manners” wasn’t the right word at all >_>
Was actually looking more on the lines of the word “credibility”
Since people are negative about nerfs, how about we buff to balance then?
Mace only works with defensive builds? I guess if that’s your idea of low level viability because you lack skill level. Like no offense but that’s just the issue with mace. Seriously Mace + Shield stun lock combos with a glass cannon set-up is pretty good, just that no one has the balls to actually try to make plays with glass cannon Mace + GS. A simple slight attack speed buff on Mace’s 1 would be nice. All it should need honestly.
And no GS shouldn’t need any nerfs. Most people are saying they can see HB coming so therefore its fine as is. Therefore most people are okay with HB. You don’t fix something that isn’t broken.
About condition damage, you can’t simply stack bleed. You have to have a long bow to maximize it. The fact that long bow has possibly unintended bugs such as F1 not working when you’re blinded makes it a very unforgiving weapon. And now that people are actually putting Necros in their teams which hard counters the hell out of condition damage, you don’t want to nerf GS. Add to the fact that the adrenaline system is unforgiving for long bow.. which needs to use F1 the most.
I have done glass cannon mace. It’s terrible.
@Schwahrheit: each weapon set I was talking about are weapons that I’ve tried out. You can see that when I didn’t try a specific weapon set/profession enough, I just didn’t say anything about.
Your “experience” is absolutely nothing because it isn’t measurable in any form. You could have made your “experience” running the same build over and over, with just some changes in utility skills, assuming that you have an actual experience you are talking about.
I’ve tried Mace both offhand and mainhand and I’ve figured out that there isn’t absolutely no reason to prefer mace over an hammer or any weapon and most the playerbase agrees with me. Than you came here, saying your opinion, which is fine, but in an horrible manner and stating that who doesn’t agree with you is either a casual or has no decency. You, dear sir, should not argue at all if this is your way to do that, because there is no argument if you start with the assumption that you are right and everyone else’s opinions don’t matter.
A big problem with Warrior condition builds is not being able to layer many conditions, like if you run bleed and try to use a shield swap. You’ll have cripple & bleeding for conditions. This is easy to remove, ESPECIALLY by a Guardian, Staff Ele, Thief, Necro … which that in itself is enough to warrant extreme ineffectiveness of Sword for Warrior.
So I’ll have to agree that this game definitely needs a lot of work when it comes to balance. I main thief, and I think the way our damage works is extremely gimmicky and boring / no skill when it comes to backstab w/ full damage setup. I can’t agree with everything said about thief …
It’s not really backstab that needs nerf, but more or less the way the traits are set up to allow for so many damage modifications and a gauranteed crit chance w/ backstab. Or then again maybe it does …
I’d just love to see thief get out of a gimmicky playstyle and cater more towards skill. But I would hope that build viability becomes more … present for that class as well. Well, I guess condition build requires more skill to play … just I wonder why more thieves don’t use bow for condition, it’s really good … but I guess maybe other than timing cluster bombs / detonations … you actually have to aim the skill …
And perhaps that’s just far too difficult as opposed to simply teleporting to your opponent, hitting twice instantaneously while turning them to stone, then backstabbing and spamming 2 if they’re somehow still alive after backstab.
Such a boring way to play :/
@Edelweiss
Because you lack skill. Is it so hard to admit? Not that I am flaming you or anything but not being able to make glass cannon Mace work is simply a learn to play issue.
@Sorrow
I’ll just simply conclude you are unskilled and leave it at that. The fact that you also complain about quickness further shows your lack of player skill has lead to clouded judgement. You don’t ask for Mace to possibly get over-buffed just because you can’t bring its potential out since you clearly lack player skill or the ability to progress. A slight buff should be enough for Mace such as a 10% attack speed increase in its 1 attack. To me it sounds like you want Mace to overshadow GS instead of complimenting it, and that’s pretty bad judgement right there. And guess what? Mace already compliments Axe and GS pretty well.
P.S Bet my life if I did a Mace + GS guide for dummies, Warrior will suddenly become from at least “non-viable” to below average. And at this community’s standards, below average is kinda fine considering the skill level of the majority lacks so much that it hurts.
Since people are negative about nerfs, how about we buff to balance then?
(edited by Schwahrheit.4203)
@Sorrow
I’ll just simply conclude you are unskilled and leave it at that. The fact that you also complain about quickness further shows your lack of player skill has lead to clouded judgement. You don’t ask for Mace to possibly get over-buffed just because you can’t bring its potential out since you clearly lack player skill or the ability to progress. A slight buff should be enough for Mace such as a 10% attack speed increase in its 1 attack. To me it sounds like you want Mace to overshadow GS instead of complimenting it, and that’s pretty bad judgement right there. And guess what? Mace already compliments Axe and GS pretty well.
P.S Bet my life if I did a Mace + GS guide for dummies, Warrior will suddenly become from at least “non-viable” to below average. And at this community’s standards, below average is kinda fine considering the skill level of the majority lacks so much that it hurts.
I just feel I’m wasting my time trying to arguing about balance with such a rampant kitten like you. If you feel your opinion is the only and absolute truth out of this world, that everyone else is just unskilled if they think differently from you, just don’t argue with somebody else and hole up in your dumb elitism.