Guild Wars 2

Well, i consider this to be a joke.
A ladder based on QP – well, thats i can accept.
But the format? Really? Is it so hard to do a db QUERRY and put in on website?

If you dont know how -then its time to check what worked in past :
http://guildwars.com/competitive/ladder/

Even regular updates of the topic seems.. well.. bad im sorry, i like the game and like the PVP but this is just joke.

Second issue – looking at the ladders. So we see only few players can compette, only few teams. It seems like there is so small playerbase in paid tournaments !! Im sorry but looking at these ladders only means there is like 5 teams that are trully winning games and few who can do it randomly. And best joke? im talking about EU + NA together. Wow.. 3 teams in EU and maybe 3 teams in NA..

Im trully disapointed !!

Ok, lets add something. How to change it? There is few i believe easy steps to do immediatelly change.

1) delete hot-join. I mean totally. Go away from this scrap format. (could be used later as deatchmatch arena for 2v2 or 3v3 but not yet)
2) do not allow to 4-5 man teams to join free tournaments. Let free tournaments to be only for casuals / solo / small groups
3) adjust paid tournaments rewards / entry fee so all organized teams can compette
4) work on matchmaking system / elo rating whatever. You can´t put best team against casuals.
5) relase custom tournaments

Sry for my poor English, I’m rank1 on the EU, and i think that they should’ve not made this ladder, it’s a bad joke, as you can see only few teams are playing PT, casual teams have almost 0 chances to win.

The QP’s ladder shows that Anet made a poor decision… i knew from BWE2 that the tournament system was a bad idea, the concept behind it it’s bad, and you can’t do much about it.

They wanted to be different for the sake of being different, and that’s bad. I know that it’s easy to complain, so now i’m gonna explain how they could’ve done better, with less effort.

3 Queues:

a) hot join, 5v5, unranked
b) soloQ, ranked
c) premadeQ, ranked

2 ladders:

a) soloQ ladder, reset once a year
b) premadeQ ladder, reset every 1-2 month/s

1 tournament:

a) A monthly tournament, where the top X teams of the premade ladder are invited to play.

This tournament system was a kitten nightmare, so many bugs, so much time spent coding for nothing, so much effort for have a bad format. They wanted to be different, and they just ended up doing something overly complicated.

If they were coding a simple elo system and not tournaments, we would be playing with ladders, private servers and ratings already.

Ace of Spades.6325:

They wanted to be different for the sake of being different, and that’s bad.

That kind of reminds of down-state …

I agree, ladder based on QP’s is pointless with only couple teams still playing paids.

Not to mention the list is incomplete, lots of guys that should be on it are missing.
I really fail to see the point in releasing something like this.

@Ace of Spades.6325

tournaments are not that bad at all, but its too many formats for us and poorly splited.
your solution also does have too much split considering there need to be custom tournaments in order to continue and prepare GW2 to be e-sport game.
but you right in the ladders.
it could be still like this

a) free tournaments (solo players, ranked). Queues are made based on player rating.
b) premade tournaments (team ranked)
c) custom tournaments & leagues organized by players and other community servers

i strongly believe we do not need hot-join format at all. We just need two ladders and two tournaments format. There is enough premades outhere.. but they just are matched against wrong enemies..

Pray.9751:

Ace of Spades.6325:

They wanted to be different for the sake of being different, and that’s bad.

That kind of reminds of down-state …

How many fights i would’ve won 1v2 if wasn’t for downed state… but it’s kinda good now, if you think about it, the downed state allows fights to last longer without healers.

The downed state was super bad at release, but now it’s ok. When you res someone, you heal so much, that you’re basically an healer, wich can work in a game without a healer class. But we are going off topic.

Aragiel.6132:

@Ace of Spades.6325

tournaments are not that bad at all, but its too many formats for us and poorly splited.
your solution also does have too much split considering there need to be custom tournaments in order to continue and prepare GW2 to be e-sport game.
but you right in the ladders.
it could be still like this

a) free tournaments (solo players, ranked). Queues are made based on player rating.
b) premade tournaments (team ranked)
c) custom tournaments & leagues organized by players and other community servers

i strongly believe we do not need hot-join format at all. We just need two ladders and two tournaments format. There is enough premades outhere.. but they just are matched against wrong enemies..

I’ve no clue of what you’re talking about, too many formats? There is only one format, maybe you’re talking about Queues, and even in that case i don’t understand what you mean, since there are only 3 Q, LoL has something like 20+ Q…

Qualify point is a joke, only 3 4 party play and win, random CAN’T or who don’t use standard bunkers build CAN’T win at all.

I think ANet should fix this.

Tournaments are okay, however i feel that a random queue for a game with rating and MMR would be so much better for a laddering system. I’ve said before much like the SC2 league this could be adopted into GW2 for example:

-Team A queue for a ranked game
-Team A gets paired with Team D on random map
-Team D win map and gain X rating and Team A lose X rating

rinse and repeat

The good thing about this would be that you cannot prepare a certain spec that is an advantage for that map which people are doing at the moment also to possibly stop people changing classes mid games also as the maps would be random and in no set order.

Thoughts?

-Infi-

Kerishan.8460:

Qualify point is a joke, only 3 4 party play and win, random CAN’T or who don’t use standard bunkers build CAN’T win at all.

I think ANet should fix this.

This is fake, we play 1 semi bunker and 4 glass cannon roamers, and we are first in the ladder.

Ace of Spades.6325:

Aragiel.6132:

@Ace of Spades.6325

tournaments are not that bad at all, but its too many formats for us and poorly splited.
your solution also does have too much split considering there need to be custom tournaments in order to continue and prepare GW2 to be e-sport game.
but you right in the ladders.
it could be still like this

a) free tournaments (solo players, ranked). Queues are made based on player rating.
b) premade tournaments (team ranked)
c) custom tournaments & leagues organized by players and other community servers

i strongly believe we do not need hot-join format at all. We just need two ladders and two tournaments format. There is enough premades outhere.. but they just are matched against wrong enemies..

I’ve no clue of what you’re talking about, too many formats? There is only one format, maybe you’re talking about Queues, and even in that case i don’t understand what you mean, since there are only 3 Q, LoL has something like 20+ Q…

Ok, i meant Queues, and counted the one that is comming (custom tournaments) and that will split our playerbase even more.

No idea about LoL as i never played it but looking at the ladder + same names even in free tournaments – i dont think we have enough playerbase to support more than 3 Queues

This QP stuff is a freaking joke and an insult to the PvP community, wow I’m kittening rank 24 because I only play oh so much during the week with my team, people who play 24/7 will undoubtly get more QPs, this QP system makes no sense whatsoever, they have to do either one of these two things:
1) Keep Tournaments: but make maps random and that you get points everytime you win a match but you’ll get more if you win the 3rd one, and I’m not talking about a QP point system, I’m talking about a MMR system, like WoW, yea, WoW did it right for once.
2) Remove Tournaments: make that you queue for one match, you are paired vs a team, you get MMR if you win, you lose MMR if you don’t, again, just like WoW.

And to clarify, I’m not a WoW fanboy but I’ll be kitten if arenas weren’t designed correctly (without taking into account queue dodging etc, I’m talking about the system per se).

The problem is that the tournaments system need much more work to bee good than a standard system. It will be good in 3/4 months of hardcore coding, but they still need to code: ratings ladders, monthly tournaments (big work here) and the spectator mode.

I’m sure that the final product will be good, the problem is the time of delivery, the game is already dying, and a lot of good players already left the game (and will not come back), i’m not talking about casuals, i’m talking about the competitive scene.

With only 2/3 teams per region you can’t make an eSport, you can’t belive that pros will keep playing a game where they make no money because there are no lans (no lan no stream).

Ace of Spades.6325:

The problem is that the tournaments system need much more work to bee good than a standard system. It will be good in 3/4 months of hardcore coding, but they still need to code: ratings ladders, monthly tournaments (big work here) and the spectator mode.

I’m sure that the final product will be good, the problem is the time of delivery, the game is already dying, and a lot of good players already left the game (and will not come back), i’m not talking about casuals, i’m talking about the competitive scene.

With only 2/3 teams per region you can’t make an eSport, you can’t belive that pros will keep playing a game where they make no money because there are no lans (no lan no stream).

yeap.. you right..

yeap.. you right..and i still dont get why they didnt used any of mechanic GW1 had and it was awesome !! i was fighting in this ladder for years !! http://guildwars.com/competitive/ladder/

this ladder is not even correct. i know a lot of ppl who have between 10-20 qp who are not listed in this ladder.

The point is this game should’ve been an e-sport from the start, MMOs have evolved and you can’t launch a game unfinished in 2012.

Adwila.1392:

The point is this game should’ve been an e-sport from the start, MMOs have evolved and you can’t launch a game unfinished in 2012.

or you dont give promissess that you dont deliver on start because normally.. players will eat you alive for this….

Aragiel.6132:

2) do not allow to 4-5 man teams to join free tournaments. Let free tournaments to be only for casuals / solo / small groups

do u mean i am only allowed to play tournament format with my friends in paid? if so absolutely no.

Aragiel.6132:

Adwila.1392:

The point is this game should’ve been an e-sport from the start, MMOs have evolved and you can’t launch a game unfinished in 2012.

or you dont give promissess that you dont deliver on start because normally.. players will eat you alive for this….

Which is hilarious as they still go on that they don’t want to make empty promises to people about future plans and changes even though people have bought this game under empty promises. i.e paid torne’s on release, glory matchmaking etc

PetricaKerempuh.7958:

Aragiel.6132:

2) do not allow to 4-5 man teams to join free tournaments. Let free tournaments to be only for casuals / solo / small groups

do u mean i am only allowed to play tournament format with my friends in paid? if so absolutely no.

if you have full group then yes, you should play against other full groups and not against solo queued players.
Of course with ranking system so you dont get matched up every time against europe top teams.

Aragiel.6132:

PetricaKerempuh.7958:

Aragiel.6132:

2) do not allow to 4-5 man teams to join free tournaments. Let free tournaments to be only for casuals / solo / small groups

do u mean i am only allowed to play tournament format with my friends in paid? if so absolutely no.

if you have full group then yes, you should play against other full groups and not against solo queued players.
Of course with ranking system so you dont get matched up every time against europe top teams.

and how exactly do i get tickets? i wanna play tournament with friends…

PetricaKerempuh.7958:

Aragiel.6132:

PetricaKerempuh.7958:

Aragiel.6132:

2) do not allow to 4-5 man teams to join free tournaments. Let free tournaments to be only for casuals / solo / small groups

do u mean i am only allowed to play tournament format with my friends in paid? if so absolutely no.

if you have full group then yes, you should play against other full groups and not against solo queued players.
Of course with ranking system so you dont get matched up every time against europe top teams.

and how exactly do i get tickets? i wanna play tournament with friends…

ticket should be obsolete then.. and therefore not used. the only currency that is needed is QP point for monthly / yearly tournaments then.

Aragiel.6132:

ticket should be obsolete then.. and therefore not used. the only currency that is needed is QP point for monthly / yearly tournaments then.

But QP don’t measure skill at all therefore they’re not a valid method to qualify for monthly / yearly tournaments, the whole system is flawed, the game doesn’t reward you for being good but rather for playing more.

Aragiel.6132:

PetricaKerempuh.7958:

Aragiel.6132:

PetricaKerempuh.7958:

Aragiel.6132:

2) do not allow to 4-5 man teams to join free tournaments. Let free tournaments to be only for casuals / solo / small groups

do u mean i am only allowed to play tournament format with my friends in paid? if so absolutely no.

if you have full group then yes, you should play against other full groups and not against solo queued players.
Of course with ranking system so you dont get matched up every time against europe top teams.

and how exactly do i get tickets? i wanna play tournament with friends…

ticket should be obsolete then.. and therefore not used. the only currency that is needed is QP point for monthly / yearly tournaments then.

which gets us right back to the cash shop where everything (except down state) leads.

Adwila.1392:

Aragiel.6132:

ticket should be obsolete then.. and therefore not used. the only currency that is needed is QP point for monthly / yearly tournaments then.

But QP don’t measure skill at all therefore they’re not a valid method to qualify for monthly / yearly tournaments, the whole system is flawed, the game doesn’t reward you for being good but rather for playing more.

Thats true, and of course that something what should be looked at also. But first we still need to fix the issue where players are not matched up against equally skilled teams. and thats should be priority

You guys QQing here, you even know what QP are for? Its not even supposed to be a ladder or anything like that. QP are here for, well gettin you qualified for monthly tournaments coming out at some point in time. So I am really not so sure what the big QQ here is about.
One more thing the game is far from dead its stale, thats all. Nobody plays a dead game, the game has not been abandoned by the developers. If they do, yep its dead.

Did you even read the whole thread produde.8092? Because I think you didn’t, Qualifying Points don’t mean ANYTHING, they only show how much you nerd on the game, they don’t show your skill AT ALL.

@PetricaKerempuh

I have 200+ tikets, 8k gems, bought everything i wanted in the store, and i didn’t pay a single $.

@Adwilla

Point me one team in the ladder who has high QP and is bad. I dare you.

Aragiel.6132:

i strongly believe we do not need hot-join format at all. We just need two ladders and two tournaments format. There is enough premades outhere.. but they just are matched against wrong enemies..

I notice in several threads you suggest hotjoin be removed. I am strongly against this. Turn it to 5v5 yes so it gives a more accurate picture of what tournament pvp is like, but don’t remove it.

Currently when I learn a new class or am practicing solo, I will start in hotjoin and once i’ve got used to what spells do etc, I’ll pug in free tournaments to practice further.

Despite 8v8 spoiling hotjoin (for me that is, i’m sure there are people that like it, I don’t), one massive advantage hotjoin has for learning and practicing is the removal of waiting times between matches.

Free tournament pugging – Small wait to get in tournament, then x minute wait to actually start the tournament. Then you either win and wait some more, or you lose and start the process again. Now, I just want to practice my class in a 5v5 setting, I don’t want to spend 10-20 mins out of each hour of my time waiting to play.

Hotjoin – No waiting, instant join & play, when the games over, within a minute the next ones started. Make it 5v5 and that’s the place I think a lot of people will go to practice and get ready to play in tournaments.

Tomahorc.9607:

Aragiel.6132:

i strongly believe we do not need hot-join format at all. We just need two ladders and two tournaments format. There is enough premades outhere.. but they just are matched against wrong enemies..

I notice in several threads you suggest hotjoin be removed. I am strongly against this. Turn it to 5v5 yes so it gives a more accurate picture of what tournament pvp is like, but don’t remove it.

Currently when I learn a new class or am practicing solo, I will start in hotjoin and once i’ve got used to what spells do etc, I’ll pug in free tournaments to practice further.

Despite 8v8 spoiling hotjoin (for me that is, i’m sure there are people that like it, I don’t), one massive advantage hotjoin has for learning and practicing is the removal of waiting times between matches.

Free tournament pugging – Small wait to get in tournament, then x minute wait to actually start the tournament. Then you either win and wait some more, or you lose and start the process again. Now, I just want to practice my class in a 5v5 setting, I don’t want to spend 10-20 mins out of each hour of my time waiting to play.

Hotjoin – No waiting, instant join & play, when the games over, within a minute the next ones started. Make it 5v5 and that’s the place I think a lot of people will go to practice and get ready to play in tournaments.

Yes, you have valid points. But if hot-join will be 5v5 and free tournaments without guild premades (because guild premades should be playing paid or higher level)
Then whats the difference?

My point of removing hot-join could only work if free tournaments would be used instead and therefore they are not for full premade groups.

Dear Adwila, I have read the entire thread indeed. Considering Ques are only up for like 6-8 hours a day means you have a good chance meeting the good teams a lot. Consider this, at the prime time you will always meet at least one good team you have to beat, if you dont beat them you lose -> no QP. But I agree playing very late and long can help you evading meeting the good teams, but still winning just for like 2-3 hours is not long enough to get, lets say 40 QP. Seeing the names on the ladders I tend to say those guys are actually pretty good, otherwise they wouldn’t be there.
Though it may even look like SS has played a kittenload more games compared to other teams, doesn’t mean they are bad, just practice a lot. But it also doesn’t mean they are twice as good as CN or teams like that either, just because they have twice as much QP.

I can assure you there’s teams in that ladder that don’t even deserve the top 20, they simply have more QPs because they play more, or because since all good teams tend to sync in the same tournament bracket, even if a so called “good team” loses against them, they’ll just queue up for another Paid Tournament where it’ll be free of any good teams and proceed to wreck all the random teams and thus earn QPs.

Adwila.1392:

I can assure you there’s teams in that ladder that don’t even deserve the top 20, they simply have more QPs because they play more.

Oh wow…

Who are you to decide which teams “deserve” top 20, and which teams do not?

This is a ladder of QPs. They have enough QP’s to be in the top 20, they deserve to be in it. Relative “skill” is irrelevant.

Adwila.1392:

I can assure you there’s teams in that ladder that don’t even deserve the top 20, they simply have more QPs because they play more, or because since all good teams tend to sync in the same tournament bracket, even if a so called “good team” loses against them, they’ll just queue up for another Paid Tournament where it’ll be free of any good teams and proceed to wreck all the random teams and thus earn QPs.

That’s exactly what he was saying.

Just because playerX has more QP than playerY doesn’t automatically make playerX a better player. Therefore the system is mostly just showing who has played more, rather than who is better.

Aragiel.6132:

Tomahorc.9607:

Aragiel.6132:

i strongly believe we do not need hot-join format at all. We just need two ladders and two tournaments format. There is enough premades outhere.. but they just are matched against wrong enemies..

I notice in several threads you suggest hotjoin be removed. I am strongly against this. Turn it to 5v5 yes so it gives a more accurate picture of what tournament pvp is like, but don’t remove it.

Currently when I learn a new class or am practicing solo, I will start in hotjoin and once i’ve got used to what spells do etc, I’ll pug in free tournaments to practice further.

Despite 8v8 spoiling hotjoin (for me that is, i’m sure there are people that like it, I don’t), one massive advantage hotjoin has for learning and practicing is the removal of waiting times between matches.

Free tournament pugging – Small wait to get in tournament, then x minute wait to actually start the tournament. Then you either win and wait some more, or you lose and start the process again. Now, I just want to practice my class in a 5v5 setting, I don’t want to spend 10-20 mins out of each hour of my time waiting to play.

Hotjoin – No waiting, instant join & play, when the games over, within a minute the next ones started. Make it 5v5 and that’s the place I think a lot of people will go to practice and get ready to play in tournaments.

Yes, you have valid points. But if hot-join will be 5v5 and free tournaments without guild premades (because guild premades should be playing paid or higher level)
Then whats the difference?

My point of removing hot-join could only work if free tournaments would be used instead and therefore they are not for full premade groups.

The difference is hotjoin, gives you the option to play with very little waiting time between games. There is nothing more irritating than being in a free tourney and having to wait 4 minutes because one person isn’t ready, or is too indulged to notice he needs to click the i am ready button.

The main point of this QQ is that this ladder mean nothing for the game. Im not saying that those teams dont deserve it.. but it will not improve in any way the current state of tPvP and in fact it only shows how small playerbase we do have..

As i said before Aragiel, this is not even supposed to be a ladder. This “ladder” just shows a fraction of the playerbase. Consider this, you need at least 40 players to even start a tournament. At the primetime there are at least 2 Tournaments in EU going on. That means 80 players, and tbh I don’t think (besides the usual suspects ofc) there always the same 80 players playing. Besides this there are constantly free tournaments going on, with some promising teams aspiring. Sure GW2 aint nearly as big as LoL or SC2, but time will tell how the game develops.

Aragiel.6132:

The main point of this QQ is that this ladder mean nothing for the game. Im not saying that those teams dont deserve it.. but it will not improve in any way the current state of tPvP and in fact it only shows how small playerbase we do have..

Agree to 100%. The single only thing this “leaderboard” does is to prove how incredibly small the competetive pool is. And I dare bet my account on the main reason being the huge wall of “farm to get farmed” that Anet have put up for the mid-tier players.

The current state of the game is that pretty much no one is satisfied/content with the structure we have now. Low-tier is tired of the badly balanced and random hot join. Mid-tier is tired of the even worse free tournaments where they either stomp pugs or get stomped by professional players bored by the Paid queues.
High-tier players is bored because they either have to wait for forever to meet near-equal teams in paid or just go free and stomp the mid-tier players.

We need a change to the current sPvP scene and we need the lacking core features for e-sport/sPvP to be implemented. Then we can actually evaluate the game adequately.

NA side

~70 players with 5 or more points = 14 teams
~20 players with 20 or more points = 4 teams

GW1 6-7 years ago the top 100 teams were considered higher tier competition = 800 players.

And even then as the game evolved the top 300 was pretty competitive = 2400 players

I can’t see how anyone would see this game as anything close to competitive.

New and upcoming teams will have to play 20 hours a day to even think of touching the leader boards. Woo

Yep its a system where the rich get richer and poor get poorer, which ultimately destroys a competitive community.

produde.8092:

As i said before Aragiel, this is not even supposed to be a ladder. This “ladder” just shows a fraction of the playerbase. Consider this, you need at least 40 players to even start a tournament. At the primetime there are at least 2 Tournaments in EU going on. That means 80 players, and tbh I don’t think (besides the usual suspects ofc) there always the same 80 players playing. Besides this there are constantly free tournaments going on, with some promising teams aspiring. Sure GW2 aint nearly as big as LoL or SC2, but time will tell how the game develops.

Nobody really consider this as a real ladder, that’s for sure. But the point of this thread, even though not as obvious as it could be, remain the same. There are about 5-10 teams who can win Paid tournament and few others who won Paid tournament once or twice. That’s a very shallow playerbase if you ask me.

The vast difference between Paid and Free tournaments should be looked on very soon. We simply need something in between, more options what to do. If you play casually, but on a decent level with decent group, you really don’t have much to do in the GW2 at the moment. At very best you can hope for some other team in Free tournament. Or you can go and try Paid tourney, hoping you will meet similar team not any of the top teams. In other times you get destroyed by the top dogs in Paid tourney or just wreck randoms in free tourney. Where’s the fun in that?

Threads like this repeats again and again, but we still don’t have any news on PvP front. We’ve (PvP players) expected so much of this game, and when the BWE’s got in, we’ve seen the potential of the game. But nothing have really changed since then. At least not for the players, can’t speak about the coding and game core of course.

Give us a bone ANet, we’re starving and slowly dying out of lack of the content.

Yours truly,
unsatisfied customer

Jacobin.8509:

NA side

~70 players with 5 or more points = 14 teams
~20 players with 20 or more points = 4 teams

GW1 6-7 years ago the top 100 teams were considered higher tier competition = 800 players.

And even then as the game evolved the top 300 was pretty competitive = 2400 players

I can’t see how anyone would see this game as anything close to competitive.

Except in GW1 ladder was worldwide, wasn’t it? But your point is still valid.
Other than that, what Ace of Spades said. I find annoying that WvW has a ladder with matchmaking while tPvP doesn’t :-(

This ladder have no sense. Team that are good can play 10 payed per day and get maybe 5/6 QP. Team that are good and can beat the team mentioned before but play like 2/3 paid per day have low QP. Its more about who farm more.

I find it quite awesome that the #1 EU player is saying that the ladder and paid tournament system are kitten.

Hopefully this makes ANet realize how pathetic sPvP currently is.

Just please tell me that you don’t plan on building some kind of tier/rating system based on number of QP won.

This is OK for temporary solution but if you want real competetive/ranked pvp just throw away this QP nonsense and start working on real W/L % rating and based on that make tiers with equal teams.

And yeah, posting any kind of leaderboards ( spvp/WvW ) on forums in a form of pinned post?
I mean even some no-name games have web pages with basic leaderboards.

cough People at top NA were exploiting day 1 in paids on stream cough Stopped recording their videos because the proof would be all too easy to get cough Still most near anyone who plays them on a regular basis can tell you that they just throw it out there. Watch Powerr’s stream for a while and you’ll learn so much about exploiting in PvP than you’d wonder why he even streams.

Xee is a cool guy though. He drinks tea.

Like Jacobin pointed out above me, the QP’s are skewed towards the one percentile. This leads to segregation and demotes competitive pvp, which Anet is supposedly trying to nourish….

Instead of forcing us to run tournaments, where we have to wait for 40 people to show up, let us instead run best of 3’s versus a single team. This will reduce the wait times and in turn spread out the QP’s.

I really don’t see a way the current QP system will do anything but cater to the four or five teams which are constantly on.

People, people please.
This is only a temporary list. They’re working on an Elo/rating system as we speak, but of course Custom Games come first.
Nearly every competitive game tends to release related information before their rating systems are finalized.
League did it, Smite, probably a lot more I can’t think of.

Jumper.9482:

People, people please.
This is only a temporary list. They’re working on an Elo/rating system as we speak, but of course Custom Games come first.
Nearly every competitive game tends to release related information before their rating systems are finalized.
League did it, Smite, probably a lot more I can’t think of.

Its not the list itself, its what the list shows. The points are skewed towards 4 or 5 teams, meaning that paid tournaments are not working as intended.