I think its fine to gate prestigious skins behind long effort/lot of skill performance in individual game modes as long as the tier or quality etc of every time is available in each game mode.
But “tier” is completely irrelevant. What matters is that you get the one that you want. I mean, technically Dawn and Quip are on the same “tier” of items, and yet Dawn is considerably more popular, and if a player wants Dawn, giving them a Quip won’t make them feel better about it. There is no “consolation prize” for this situation, it’s all or nothing.
I’ll also point out that PvE still needs a Legendary backpiece, so far only PvP and Fractals have one, and PvP, WvW, and PvE all still need ways to get legendary armor outside of raiding.
If I _wanted fractal wings I’d have to spend weeks crafting time gated gear and auto attacking colorful scripted bad guys. But that wouldn’t be fun to me, and my wants in life aren’t overshadowed by a desire for virtual backpacks.
But why not? Because the developers arbitrarily attached reward A to content B? Why? Why couldn’t they open it up to several options, so that if you did want the Fractal backpiece, you could earn it by pursuing a PvP achievement line similar to the Ascension ones in complexity?
The three game modes are pve, pvp and wvw. There are ways to get legendary backpieces in two of those modes – pve and pvp. Getting a legendary should require a legendary effort/legendary skill. For pvp and pve you gain the legendary backpiece preferably through the most hardcore extreme of those game modes thats the point. Even if for the most part you can get legendaries in pve with gold farming the idea is that they are not a casual thing.
What you need to cater for is a persons interest in one of the three game modes, not the whole everyones a winner idea.
But why not? Because the developers arbitrarily attached reward A to content B? Why? Why couldn’t they open it up to several options, so that if you did want the Fractal backpiece, you could earn it by pursuing a PvP achievement line similar to the Ascension ones in complexity?
Can I make 2 points then.
1. If you really want to talk about about unjust rewards for playtime dude, can I remind you that EVERY pvp player that played the first 1.5 years lost ALL progression (they normalised all 50+ accounts to 80 then made rank points about x6 times easier to aquire) with nothing to show for it. No legendary, title or achievement. Absolutely nothing. Probably about 3k hours for nothing. Nada.
2. This is exactly the attitude which makes most modern MMOs bad. Everyone wants everything, streamlined, obvious and standardised. This removes all the magic of that kind of game. In vanilla EQ we couldn’t even find you’re way out of the starter city without help, now we want every reward from doing anything.
/rant
/* a very nerdy rant */
(edited by Phaeton.9582)
snip
Phaeton, don’t waste your time with him… I made the same mistake previously when the PvP armour sets came out…
He will take up way too much of your time for nothing… Previous topics of his were creating a code in PvP where you allowed people to get your dailies since no one takes PvP serious, giving the Legendary PvP armour to everyone and a bunch more about the prestigious rewards in PvE
He is beyond help and reasoning… Like I said, a waste of time
There are people that used to love pvp that hate it now. You never liked it so why even care to create this joke of a thread
Because now I’m being strong-armed into it because of the PvP-only wings. If those didn’t exist then I could cheerfully continue to not care what goes on in the mist, but for the next two months I’m stuck there.
The three game modes are pve, pvp and wvw. There are ways to get legendary backpieces in two of those modes – pve and pvp. Getting a legendary should require a legendary effort/legendary skill. For pvp and pve you gain the legendary backpiece preferably through the most hardcore extreme of those game modes thats the point.
First, don’t try to bundle things like Fractals and Raids in with general PvE. They are at least as different from PvE as PvP and WvW are from each other. Second, The Ascension track doesn’t actually require all that much skill, it mostly just involve repetition, and the luck to end up on teams that are capable of winning at least a few matches. You don’t have to win all that many, it’s just a horrid grind to do so. It’s really got nothing on the Raids, and I say that as someone who hasn’t beaten Vale Guardian yet (but have at least watched videos of others beating the bosses).
1. If you really want to talk about about unjust rewards for playtime dude, can I remind you that EVERY pvp player that played the first 1.5 years lost ALL progression (they normalised all 50+ accounts to 80 then made rank points about x6 times easier to aquire) with nothing to show for it. No legendary, title or achievement. Absolutely nothing. Probably about 3k hours for nothing. Nada.
That’s not at all true. All PvP wardrobe transferred over, including at least some pieces that were impossible to earn through other activities, and many that were way harder to earn through other activities. They also gave you the rank finishers. If you still feel you were done wrong, then I empathize with you and would want them to make it right, but this is the first I’ve heard about it. In either case, that happening to do in no way justifies any other behavior.
2. This is exactly the attitude which makes most modern MMOs bad. Everyone wants everything, streamlined, obvious and standardised.
Or it’s what makes them good, they are more reactive to the player’s needs and desires, more respectful that they might have lives outside of the game. I know that some people pine for the days of the “I hate you players, I will crush you” MMOs, but there are way more people that think those players have issues and appreciate a game that is more respectful of their time.
He will take up way too much of your time for nothing… Previous topics of his were creating a code in PvP where you allowed people to get your dailies since no one takes PvP serious, giving the Legendary PvP armour to everyone and a bunch more about the prestigious rewards in PvE
He is beyond help and reasoning… Like I said, a waste of time
I do have a bit of a history of not enjoying PvP, and of resenting it greatly when the devs force me to dig through a giant steaming pile of PvP to get at the things I want, but I think that is a reasonable perspective for a player of GW2 to have. I certainly don’t expect everyone to agree, particularly not on the PvP boards, but forgive me for saying so, you are not my target audience and I don’t particularly mind you disagreeing with me, I only care that change is affected.
@google yup I dun got trolled
I’m pretty sure this guy is a troll lol.
If he is, he’s been at it for over a year.
Who are you to decide this?
Ok, I’ll bite. What is “PvP” about the wings themselves? If they had put them on the gem store, or locked them behind some PvE collection quest, what would make you think “OMG, those are totally PvP wings, as a PvPer, i simply MUST have those wings!”
So, who are you to decide this? It’s not like you actually answered the question.
They are not PvP wings. They are for all wings. The devs just decided to play them behind PvP activities. There’s absolutely nothing “PvP” about the wings themselves, and if PvP didn’t exist you’d be able to earn them through some other means.
Who are you to decide this?
I’ve learned it’s pointless to argue with Ohoni. If possible, he claims that it’s in the name of ‘equality’ or ‘other playstyles’ even if it actively destroys a playstyle. When challenged on it, he defaults to ‘well this is how it should be!’ When you point out that this is just his personal, subjective opinion, he ignores that and continues arguing. If you continue to argue with him, he will just make the same arguments over and over. Then, by the time he loses enough times, he’s made a new thread (here) arguing for the same things in a slightly different context.
I’m pretty sure this guy is a troll lol.
If he is, he’s been at it for over a year.
Who are you to decide this?
Ok, I’ll bite. What is “PvP” about the wings themselves? If they had put them on the gem store, or locked them behind some PvE collection quest, what would make you think “OMG, those are totally PvP wings, as a PvPer, i simply MUST have those wings!”
So, who are you to decide this? It’s not like you actually answered the question.
They are not PvP wings. They are for all wings. The devs just decided to play them behind PvP activities. There’s absolutely nothing “PvP” about the wings themselves, and if PvP didn’t exist you’d be able to earn them through some other means.
Who are you to decide this?
I’ve learned it’s pointless to argue with Ohoni. If possible, he claims that it’s in the name of ‘equality’ or ‘other playstyles’ even if it actively destroys a playstyle. When challenged on it, he defaults to ‘well this is how it should be!’ When you point out that this is just his personal, subjective opinion, he ignores that and continues arguing. If you continue to argue with him, he will just make the same arguments over and over. Then, by the time he loses enough times, he’s made a new thread (here) arguing for the same things in a slightly different context.
Completely agree. Good job summing it up.
Ok, I’ll bite. What is “PvP” about the wings themselves? If they had put them on the gem store, or locked them behind some PvE collection quest, what would make you think “OMG, those are totally PvP wings, as a PvPer, i simply MUST have those wings!”
So, who are you to decide this? It’s not like you actually answered the question.
That’s not answering the question. People keep insisting “these are PvP wings, of course they should be for PvPers only!” Well if so, it shouldn’t be difficult to point out what it is, exactly, about the wings themselves, regardless of the existing methods of acquiring them, that makes them definitely “PvP only.”
Ok, I’ll bite. What is “PvP” about the wings themselves? If they had put them on the gem store, or locked them behind some PvE collection quest, what would make you think “OMG, those are totally PvP wings, as a PvPer, i simply MUST have those wings!”
So, who are you to decide this? It’s not like you actually answered the question.
That’s not answering the question. People keep insisting “these are PvP wings, of course they should be for PvPers only!” Well if so, it shouldn’t be difficult to point out what it is, exactly, about the wings themselves, regardless of the existing methods of acquiring them, that makes them definitely “PvP only.”
it’s the intention of the game designers that they are pvp wings. they were designed from the ground up to be a reward for PvP leagues.
it’s like asking why dragon hunter has a long bow and traps. it’s just how it was designed dude.
Ok, I’ll bite. What is “PvP” about the wings themselves? If they had put them on the gem store, or locked them behind some PvE collection quest, what would make you think “OMG, those are totally PvP wings, as a PvPer, i simply MUST have those wings!”
So, who are you to decide this? It’s not like you actually answered the question.
That’s not answering the question. People keep insisting “these are PvP wings, of course they should be for PvPers only!” Well if so, it shouldn’t be difficult to point out what it is, exactly, about the wings themselves, regardless of the existing methods of acquiring them, that makes them definitely “PvP only.”
Because Anet says they are pvp wings. Don’t think we don’t see your point of view. We do. It’s just we all think it’s wrong. While making them non-exclusive to pvp would benefit you, it would take away from the intrinsic value it has for most pvpers who worked to get it. Something isn’t special if everyone can get it. I would guess half the reason people are wearing them is because it shows what they’ve accomplished in pvp.
You hated pvp before
They introduce a legendary item
You now go like it is your duty and Anet is forcing pvp down your throat
so you hate it even more, because you should have this legendary
and your solution would be to give it to you without anything?
They are pvp wings… legendary pvp wings… to show that, yes, we’ve done lots of pvp because legendary requires works… as in doing lots of pvp is inherently a must…
Jesus christ your opinion is so lame and you’re so pathetic in your whining
I don’t want to pve ever. I want fractal weapons. Give me them for pvping.
While making them non-exclusive to pvp would benefit you, it would take away from the intrinsic value it has for most pvpers who worked to get it.
But they shouldn’t have that value. The value of earning something via PvP should be the value of earning something via PvP, the wings have intrinsic value of their own, independent of having been earned from PvP, and players should be able to earn THAT value without having to do the PvP if doing the PvP would make them hate the game.
I would guess half the reason people are wearing them is because it shows what they’ve accomplished in pvp.
And I couldn’t care less about those people. That’s a horrible outlook to have. You should wear a piece because it looks good with the rest of your pieces, not some ridiculous attempt to show off.
You hated pvp before
They introduce a legendary item
You now go like it is your duty and Anet is forcing pvp down your throat
so you hate it even more, because you should have this legendary
and your solution would be to give it to you without anything?
Yuuup.
I don’t want to pve ever. I want fractal weapons. Give me them for pvping.
If I could, I would. I hope that you get what you want out of the game.
While making them non-exclusive to pvp would benefit you, it would take away from the intrinsic value it has for most pvpers who worked to get it.
But they shouldn’t have that value. The value of earning something via PvP should be the value of earning something via PvP, the wings have intrinsic value of their own, independent of having been earned from PvP, and players should be able to earn THAT value without having to do the PvP if doing the PvP would make them hate the game.
I would guess half the reason people are wearing them is because it shows what they’ve accomplished in pvp.
And I couldn’t care less about those people. That’s a horrible outlook to have. You should wear a piece because it looks good with the rest of your pieces, not some ridiculous attempt to show off.
You hated pvp before
They introduce a legendary item
You now go like it is your duty and Anet is forcing pvp down your throat
so you hate it even more, because you should have this legendary
and your solution would be to give it to you without anything?Yuuup.
I don’t want to pve ever. I want fractal weapons. Give me them for pvping.
If I could, I would. I hope that you get what you want out of the game.
The wings are a PvP trophy. They are meant to be a prestigious PvP item that requires dedication to PvP. The pve side of this game has plenty of things you can’t get from PvP. I’m sorry that you feel as though you are entitled to the PvP reward without having to do PvP but pvpers need something to make them feel like special snowflakes too.
If they just gave them to everyone playing the game they wouldn’t be very prestigious.
The pve side of this game has plenty of things you can’t get from PvP.
Quantity is irrelevant. If you are upset that PvE has things you cannot currently earn from PvP, then the solution is to open those things up to be earned by PvP, not by making other things exclusive to PvP.
If they just gave them to everyone playing the game they wouldn’t be very prestigious.
And just because they don’t give them to everyone playing the game does not make them any more prestigious, that’s just false vanity.
The pve side of this game has plenty of things you can’t get from PvP.
Quantity is irrelevant. If you are upset that PvE has things you cannot currently earn from PvP, then the solution is to open those things up to be earned by PvP, not by making other things exclusive to PvP.
If they just gave them to everyone playing the game they wouldn’t be very prestigious.
And just because they don’t give them to everyone playing the game does not make them any more prestigious, that’s just false vanity.
I’m not upset I believe each game mode should have their own prestigious items.
While making them non-exclusive to pvp would benefit you, it would take away from the intrinsic value it has for most pvpers who worked to get it.
But they shouldn’t have that value. The value of earning something via PvP should be the value of earning something via PvP, the wings have intrinsic value of their own, independent of having been earned from PvP, and players should be able to earn THAT value without having to do the PvP if doing the PvP would make them hate the game.
Okay…. I’m going to answer that with a quote:
And I couldn’t care less about those people. That’s a horrible outlook to have.
Do you see how what you say falls flat on it’s face, then gets trampled by itself?
and that would be great, _if they did not tie cool rewards to them. If the only thing you got for completing the Ascention achievement line is “you completed the line” then I would have no problem with it, but since it’s necessary to get those wings, it’s necessary to complete for people who have absolutely no enjoyment from the associated activities.
If they want to have something that conveys “prestige,” then it should be something that people wouldn’t want otherwise, something that ONLY serves to show that you have accomplished something, not something that would be cool and desirable whether you accomplished that task or not.
Yeah, do I even need to say anything? ‘Give people that have been really dedicated and have become very good at something items nobody wants. But give me all the cool stuff!’
(edited by DeShadowWolf.6854)
I’m not upset I believe each game mode should have their own prestigious items.
And I disagree, obviously. I believe players should have access to the looks that they want, through whichever playstyle appeals to them. If you really like the look of the “PvP” wings, but really hate PvP, you should not have to choose between never getting the look that you want, or having to endure countless hours of unpleasant gameplay.
And I couldn’t care less about those people. That’s a horrible outlook to have.
Do you see how what you say falls flat on it’s face, then gets trampled by itself?
Nope.
(edited by Ohoni.6057)
Yeah, do I even need to say anything? ‘Give people that have been really dedicated and have become very good at something items nobody wants. But give me all the cool stuff!’
Look, I’ve said time and again, they can give rewards for significant effort. If you devote a lot of time at becoming great at PvP, then you can earn the wings that way, the only change I’d like to see is that there should be OTHER ways of earning it, requiring equivalent time and effort to other aspects of the game to earn the same reward. You should be able to get the cool reward for your time and effort, but you should not have exclusive rights to that reward. The only component that should be exclusive would be something that ONLY has value in its exclusivity, something that would be inherently worthless if not for the knowledge that it required devotion to a specific task to earn it, such as a title or a name tag pip or something. That says “I have accomplished this one specific thing,” without locking out cool wardrobe options from players who have no interest in being recognized as having “accomplished this one specific thing.”
This should not be so difficult for you to understand, whether you agree with it or not.
Also, so far nobody has been able to explain what is intrinsically “PvP” about these wings, what would make them “PvP wings” even if they were available through other means, that justifies that they must remain PvP-only.
Also, so far nobody has been able to explain what is intrinsically “PvP” about these wings, what would make them “PvP wings” even if they were available through other means, that justifies that they must remain PvP-only.
Because ANet decided to make them exclusively pvp. Find me other people who agree with you on this issue please.
This whole thread can be summed up with “If you want a pvp exclusive item, be prepared to put in the necessary sweat and tears.”
There is a reason, one of the new pvp league exclusive items is named the vial of salt.
Yes, it gets your blood boiling when some guy decides to solo lord on foefire when you sit at 480 points with a narrow lead and can barely hold on to your capture points as it is.
But the beauty about pvp is that kitten never sticks. You just go on to the next game and start from a blank slate. It’s not wvw where you have to sit through a whole week of playing catch up after you horribly botched your reset raid.
I’m not upset I believe each game mode should have their own prestigious items.
And I disagree, obviously. I believe players should have access to the looks that they want, through whichever playstyle appeals to them. If you really like the look of the “PvP” wings, but really hate PvP, you should not have to choose between never getting the look that you want, or having to endure countless hours of unpleasant gameplay.
And you have provided no reason for anyone else to agree other than that opinion. Nor do you seem to realize that people want items that show dedication to a particular thing, such as sPvP.
And I couldn’t care less about those people. That’s a horrible outlook to have.
Do you see how what you say falls flat on it’s face, then gets trampled by itself?
Nope.
The same logic which you use to dismiss people wanting pvp-specific items can be used to dismiss you. All it takes is applying the logic a bit more evenly.
Yeah, do I even need to say anything? ‘Give people that have been really dedicated and have become very good at something items nobody wants. But give me all the cool stuff!’
Look, I’ve said time and again, they can give rewards for significant effort.
Congratulations, you almost outlined what prestige is. That, plus dedication to a specific task, is the point of prestige.
If you devote a lot of time at becoming great at PvP, then you can earn the wings that way, the only change I’d like to see is that there should be OTHER ways of earning it, requiring equivalent time and effort to other aspects of the game to earn the same reward. You should be able to get the cool reward for your time and effort, but you should not have exclusive rights to that reward.
Congratulations, you just undermined half the point of prestige.
The only component that should be exclusive would be something that ONLY has value in its exclusivity, something that would be inherently worthless if not for the knowledge that it required devotion to a specific task to earn it, such as a title or a name tag pip or something.
But that’s just the point, if it’s inherently worthless, why would anyone go for it? The point is to reward players who put a lot of dedicated effort into one thing with something cool. Just imagine, “Achievement Unlocked: 10,000 PvP games. [opens chest] Ragged Worn Shirt Skin.”
That says “I have accomplished this one specific thing,” without locking out cool wardrobe options from players who have no interest in being recognized as having “accomplished this one specific thing.”
Or, maybe, maybe, the person should understand that something that looks cool probably requires a good bit of work, and now if they want to look cool with that thing, they have a motivation to play the game and become accomplished in this specific thing.
Also, so far nobody has been able to explain what is intrinsically “PvP” about these wings, what would make them “PvP wings” even if they were available through other means, that justifies that they must remain PvP-only.
And that’s because it’s a dumb, pointless, meaningless question that just bogs everything down. Why is ‘For Great Justice’ inherently warrior? Why are kits inherently engineer? Rifle inherently warrior and engineer? Attunement swapping inherently elementalist? Siegemaster Dulfy inherently Urban Battleground Fractal? Supply inherently WvW/Stronghold? Exotics inherently high-level? Rare inherently above Masterwork? There’s nothing inherent about anything, it’s a game. The only sensible answer to those is ‘because Anet made it that way.’ Asking it does nothing to help the conversation.
Because ANet decided to make them exclusively pvp.
“Because ANet arbitrarily says so” does not answer the question. Assume that they arbitrarily chose otherwise, if you just saw those wings on a player, entirely out of context, you had no clue where they came from, what would make you say “He must have gotten those wings by being good at the PvPs.”
Yes, it gets your blood boiling when some guy decides to solo lord on foefire when you sit at 480 points with a narrow lead and can barely hold on to your capture points as it is.
I would kill for a match like that, so far my experience with ranked is mostly matches that end 500-200. the only match I had that ended within 50 points was the one that my team actually won.
The same logic which you use to dismiss people wanting pvp-specific items can be used to dismiss you. All it takes is applying the logic a bit more evenly.
Because there is no logic that can be applied to either side in this discussion, it is entirely a matter of conflicting opinions.
Congratulations, you just undermined half the point of prestige.
I think you’re greatly overestimating the value to be had in “prestige” within a video game.
But that’s just the point, if it’s inherently worthless, why would anyone go for it?
Because you seem to believe that there is value in having people know that you’re special. This would show that you’re a super special person, without denying other players the wardrobe options that they want.
Just imagine, “Achievement Unlocked: 10,000 PvP games. [opens chest] Ragged Worn Shirt Skin.”
Again though, I’m not saying “take the wings away,” the player should still get those wings, and he should still be happy about that. All that would change is that other players could also be happy by getting those wings.
Or, maybe, maybe, the person should understand that something that looks cool probably requires a good bit of work, and now if they want to look cool with that thing, they have a motivation to play the game and become accomplished in this specific thing.
Why do you (and many others) keep getting so off topic? You say “probably requires a good bit of work,” as if anyone has suggested otherwise. I have never once suggested reducing the amount of work involved, at least not as my preferred solution.
And that’s because it’s a dumb, pointless, meaningless question that just bogs everything down.
So you agree that there IS nothing inherently “PvP” about these wings that would necessitate them ONLY being available via PvP.
Why is ‘For Great Justice’ inherently warrior? Why are kits inherently engineer? Rifle inherently warrior and engineer? Attunement swapping inherently elementalist? Siegemaster Dulfy inherently Urban Battleground Fractal? Supply inherently WvW/Stronghold? Exotics inherently high-level? Rare inherently above Masterwork? There’s nothing inherent about anything, it’s a game. The only sensible answer to those is ‘because Anet made it that way.’ Asking it does nothing to help the conversation.
The thing is though, any of these factors can change if ANet changes their mind. I’m asking them to change their mind. I mean, until just recently, Eles and Necros could not Shout. Eight classes got weapons they didn’t have access to before. What you’re arguing now would be like someone a year ago saying “Mesmers don’t have Wells, Mesmers can NEVER have Wells, because ANet said so!” Well they did, and then they didn’t. I’m asking they do the same here.
Don’t bother with the achievements, and it’s avoided! Also you only need to win 5 matches on two classes to progress the meta achievement.
You can’t get the wings without the achievements though. I mean, sure, that would fix all the problems, but it’s not an option on the table at the moment.
You hear that ANet? Just fix that and nobody will care about all this PvP mess again.
don’t get the wings.
The same logic which you use to dismiss people wanting pvp-specific items can be used to dismiss you. All it takes is applying the logic a bit more evenly.
Because there is no logic that can be applied to either side in this discussion, it is entirely a matter of conflicting opinions.
You dismissed people wanting it to show that they’re accomplished by saying, ‘I don’t care about those people, that’s a horrible outlook.’ The exact same line can be used to dismiss you and your position.
And if it really is only conflicting opinions, you haven’t given anyone else a reason to agree.
Congratulations, you just undermined half the point of prestige.
I think you’re greatly overestimating the value to be had in “prestige” within a video game.
I think you’re greatly underestimating it.
See how this doesn’t get anywhere?
But that’s just the point, if it’s inherently worthless, why would anyone go for it?
Because you seem to believe that there is value in having people know that you’re special. This would show that you’re a super special person, without denying other players the wardrobe options that they want.
Because then no one would ever wear it if they cared what their character looked like. Anyway, aren’t you the one always touting GW2 as an adventure MMO with special emphasis on skins, not Prestige Wars 2? Or just replace ‘Prestige’ with whatever you don’t like.
Just imagine, “Achievement Unlocked: 10,000 PvP games. [opens chest] Ragged Worn Shirt Skin.”
Again though, I’m not saying “take the wings away,” the player should still get those wings, and he should still be happy about that. All that would change is that other players could also be happy by getting those wings.
And I’m saying that that would undermine half the point of the wings as a reward specific to pvpers, who frankly haven’t had any good high-end rewards like this.
Or, maybe, maybe, the person should understand that something that looks cool probably requires a good bit of work, and now if they want to look cool with that thing, they have a motivation to play the game and become accomplished in this specific thing.
Why do you (and many others) keep getting so off topic? You say “probably requires a good bit of work,” as if anyone has suggested otherwise. I have never once suggested reducing the amount of work involved, at least not as my preferred solution.
Speak for yourself, if the only counter you can make is to complain about my choice of words. That said, take it away, Ohoni:
You hated pvp before
They introduce a legendary item
You now go like it is your duty and Anet is forcing pvp down your throat
so you hate it even more, because you should have this legendary
and your solution would be to give it to you without anything?Yuuup.
And that’s because it’s a dumb, pointless, meaningless question that just bogs everything down.
So you agree that there IS nothing inherently “PvP” about these wings that would necessitate them ONLY being available via PvP.
No, I’m saying it’s a meaningless, non-sensical question. How can anything in a game have anything inherent?
Why is ‘For Great Justice’ inherently warrior? Why are kits inherently engineer? Rifle inherently warrior and engineer? Attunement swapping inherently elementalist? Siegemaster Dulfy inherently Urban Battleground Fractal? Supply inherently WvW/Stronghold? Exotics inherently high-level? Rare inherently above Masterwork? There’s nothing inherent about anything, it’s a game. The only sensible answer to those is ‘because Anet made it that way.’ Asking it does nothing to help the conversation.
The thing is though, any of these factors can change if ANet changes their mind. I’m asking them to change their mind. I mean, until just recently, Eles and Necros could not Shout. Eight classes got weapons they didn’t have access to before. What you’re arguing now would be like someone a year ago saying “Mesmers don’t have Wells, Mesmers can NEVER have Wells, because ANet said so!” Well they did, and then they didn’t. I’m asking they do the same here.
Strawman. What I’m saying is that asking a question about ‘inherent’ things is pointless and meaningless here. The idea that you can apply the concept of ‘inherent’ to something in a game makes no sense. It’s like asking what’s inherently Elementalist about the Arcane trait line, then demanding that all professions get access to Arcane on the basis of that. The whole discussion about ‘inherent this,’ ‘inherent that,’ is a sideshow meant to bog the discussion down to this.
You can’t get the wings without the achievements though. I mean, sure, that would fix all the problems, but it’s not an option on the table at the moment.
You hear that ANet? Just fix that and nobody will care about all this PvP mess again.
don’t get the wings.
But the thing is, he is unwilling to not get them, but he doesn’t want to pvp becaue that’s unfun, he doesn’t want to get gold because he’s unwilling to spend his time that way, and I assume that continues until all we’re left with is what he enjoys.
(edited by DeShadowWolf.6854)
In this thread (or well; OP’s posts): “It’s silly of you to care about items in a game! There’s more to life than stuff in a game! But I really really really do want that item, and I do not want to play the content that it’s a reward for! I really care a lot about that item in a game!”
Fact is, everyone who wants the legendary PvP-backpiece has to play PvP. Just like everyone who wants the legendary fractal-backpiece has to play fractals. It’s a reward that you get from playing certain content. If you don’t want to play that content, you obviously don’t get the reward for playing it. It’s like if an athlete at the olympics would go “I want the olympic gold-medal for swimming, but I hate swimming; I want to get the swimming-medal for competing and winning in table tennis (which I happen to be competing in)! And of course in addition to the medal for table-tennis!”
(edited by Saturn.6591)
I’m pretty sure this guy is a troll lol.
If he is, he’s been at it for over a year.
Who are you to decide this?
Ok, I’ll bite. What is “PvP” about the wings themselves? If they had put them on the gem store, or locked them behind some PvE collection quest, what would make you think “OMG, those are totally PvP wings, as a PvPer, i simply MUST have those wings!”
So, who are you to decide this? It’s not like you actually answered the question.
They are not PvP wings. They are for all wings. The devs just decided to play them behind PvP activities. There’s absolutely nothing “PvP” about the wings themselves, and if PvP didn’t exist you’d be able to earn them through some other means.
Who are you to decide this?
I’ve learned it’s pointless to argue with Ohoni. If possible, he claims that it’s in the name of ‘equality’ or ‘other playstyles’ even if it actively destroys a playstyle. When challenged on it, he defaults to ‘well this is how it should be!’ When you point out that this is just his personal, subjective opinion, he ignores that and continues arguing. If you continue to argue with him, he will just make the same arguments over and over. Then, by the time he loses enough times, he’s made a new thread (here) arguing for the same things in a slightly different context.
So I’ve noticed from that train wreck luxury goods thread, but regardless I felt the need to point out his fallacy.
This absolutely disgusting reward is the only reward in the game where you can actually lose all your progress towards in a matter of minutes.
You can get the legendary fractal backpiece by playing fractals and you will eventually get it.
You could play pvp for a year straight and have absolutely no guaranteed that you’ll get this because of absolutely kittened pip system. In a game where your odds of wining and losing are 50/50 NEVER should a loss count exactly the same as a win. There’s no progression, just a constant push and pull until you miraculously get a lucky 5 win streak. But you are just as likely or even more to lose all your progress in just two matches. Which is even worsened by your personal progress depending on others.
This is the most “one step forward two steps backs” systems I have ever seen in a videogame and it’s absolutely disgusting. Even if I liked pvp this would still rile me up.
I cannot even imagine the amount of anguer people are gonna go through if they somehow manage to get to ruby
I’ve read your posts, OP but haven’t seen you suggest a mechanism to win at PvP without doing PvP. So, here you go Ohoni.
Karma into PvP pips!
Yes, win at PvE by completing events and turn that karma into PvP pips. (Pips available at a merchant selling pips in a PvP lobby near you). Just play PvE to earn enough karma to get those wings without ever setting foot in PvP.
It’s a win win solution. ^^
don’t get the wings.
Not on the table.
And if it really is only conflicting opinions, you haven’t given anyone else a reason to agree.
Nor do I have to. It’s all about pleasing the largest number of players, not convincing anyone in this thread of anything they don’t want to believe.
I think you’re greatly underestimating it.
See how this doesn’t get anywhere?
Yes, we present conflicting opinions and this seems to bother you for. . . reasons.
Because then no one would ever wear it if they cared what their character looked like.
I’m not saying they should give out ugly wardobe pieces, I’m saying that they should tie “prestige” to wardrobe at all. It should be titles, nametag pips, carryable bundles, things that those so inclined could “show off” so that those around them could, theoretically “be impressed,” but would not detract from the wardrobe options available.
And I’m saying that that would undermine half the point of the wings as a reward specific to pvpers, who frankly haven’t had any good high-end rewards like this.
And I’m saying that is a plus, not the minus you seem to make it out to be. The reward should not be a reward specific to PvPers, and as I’ve said about a dozen times in this thread alone “but I can’t earn [this other thing] via PvP” is not an excuse, that is a perfectly reasonable complaint, but the solution is to allow you to earn that thing via PvP, which I fully support, not to make items that can only be earned via PvP.
Speak for yourself, if the only counter you can make is to complain about my choice of words. That said, take it away, Ohoni:
I was responding to a flip, borderline trolling strawman with a flip remark. I believe I’ve made it abundantly clear that I expect to have to work to earn them in some way, and do not personally advocate for “give them to us for nothing” as an ideal solution, although “give them to us for nothing” would at least be better than the current situation.
No, I’m saying it’s a meaningless, non-sensical question. How can anything in a game have anything inherent?
There are plenty of rewards in this game with inherent association to them. All dungeon armors are specifically themed to their native dungeon, and yet you can win them in PvP via reward tracks. If you look at a Twilight Arbor armor, you go “oh, that looks Twilight Arboreal.” Likewise, the three Magus Falls armor sets, Bladed, Auris, and Leyline, are all thematically linked to their native zones, and yet also available via PvP. Fractal gearing is also thematically associated to the Fractals, bearing similar floaty distortions. Yet there is absolutely nothing about the Ascension wings that are in any way recognizable as being PvP-related in any form.
If they had announced them as being on the gemstore in some $20 bundle, people wouldn’t have gone “those should totally be in PvP instead,” they would have just gone “oh, those are not terribly dissimilar to the other recent gem store offerings, and in fact less thematically tied to any actual content of any variety than the recent River of Souls wings.”
It’s like asking what’s inherently Elementalist about the Arcane trait line, then demanding that all professions get access to Arcane on the basis of that. The whole discussion about ‘inherent this,’ ‘inherent that,’ is a sideshow meant to bog the discussion down to this.
And that can be done. Any time they take a tool from one class and give it to another, they have to justify its role. A lot of people were upset about the Dragon Hunter fitting poorly into the Guardian’s theme, or Berserker being a bit too “magical” for a Warrior. There are reasonable arguments to be made on all sides. If they gave Warriors a Scepter as their next weapon, they would have to come up with a good reason why to the players.
The whole discussion about ‘inherent this,’ ‘inherent that,’ is a sideshow meant to bog the discussion down to this.
Well, it wouldn’t even be necessary if so many people’s comeback wasn’t “but they’re PvP wings, they MUST AND CAN ONLY BE earned through PvP!” Whcih is a statement that would only make sense if there were anything inherently PvP about the wings themselves. Short of that, they’re just wings, “Anywhere Wings,” and today they are locked behind PvP content, but there’s absolutely no reason why tomorrow they could be made available via other means, just as Precursors were once available only through RNG, and are now also available through collection paths.
In this thread (or well; OP’s posts): “It’s silly of you to care about items in a game! There’s more to life than stuff in a game! But I really really really do want that item, and I do not want to play the content that it’s a reward for! I really care a lot about that item in a game!”
Hmm, I don’t believe that accurately reflects my position. I don’t object to caring about the items themselves, clearly my position rests on that point. What I do find a bit ridiculous is caring about the “prestige” of owning a particular item. Caring about the item is about you, it’s between you and the game. Caring about prestige is about other people, it’s somehow believing that other people will be impressed with you, based on the items you have, which is a bit sad if you really think about it.
Fact is, everyone who wants the legendary PvP-backpiece has to play PvP. Just like everyone who wants the legendary fractal-backpiece has to play fractals.
Yes, that is currently the fact, and repeating it over and over and over does not change the other fact, that nobody disputes that fact. It is a fact that these are currently the only ways to earn those rewards. It is also a fact that tomorrow there could be alternate ways to earn them. Nothing’s stopping them from doing so. I’m encouraging them to make that change, for the health of the game’s community.
It’s like if an athlete at the olympics would go “I want the olympic gold-medal for swimming, but I hate swimming; I want to get the swimming-medal for competing and winning in table tennis (which I happen to be competing in)! And of course in addition to the medal for table-tennis!”
You want to see an Olympic gold medal for swimming? http://betheredothat.hylands.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/london-olympics-day-4-men-swimming.jpg
You want to see an Olympic gold medal for running (couldn’t find one for table tennis)?
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02308/olympic-mo-medals_2308708b.jpg
Notice the difference? There is none. It’s the same medal, but there are hundreds of different ways to earn it, some slightly more difficult than others, but all representative of a lot of skill and effort. Similarly, if they want to label these the “PvP Wings,” and the only way to earn that specific one is through PvP, but then they have visually identical wings that can be earned via other means, then sure, that’d be fine too.
’ve read your posts, OP but haven’t seen you suggest a mechanism to win at PvP without doing PvP. So, here you go Ohoni.
Karma into PvP pips!
Yes, win at PvE by completing events and turn that karma into PvP pips. (Pips available at a merchant selling pips in a PvP lobby near you). Just play PvE to earn enough karma to get those wings without ever setting foot in PvP.
It’s a win win solution. ^^
I’d take that if it were the only option, I have a ton of karma to blow, but honestly that doesn’t seem like an ideal solution because it would devalue the league and pip system and all that stuff that seems to actually matter to PvPers. I don’t think that’s necessary. I think you should be able to bypass the current achievements entirely, it shouldn’t be a way for PvEers to clear out the “Path of the Ascension I: The Thrill of Battle” without having to PvP, it would be a way to never have to touch that achievement line. It would be some alternate way of earning the Gift of the Competitor item, as well as the other items needed to craft the Ascention pack, or alternately just a completely different progression path that would eventually lead to the pack, with no overlap.
It might be better though if you could earn bits and pieces from all aspects of the game, so you could earn some parts via the PvP track, if you liked PvP a bit but not enough to go the whole way, and earn other parts via the PvE options if you like those parts better. The specifics can be just about anything, infinite possibilities, but the basic principle is just to offer alternatives.
You know what this reminds me of?
Pure WvW players complaining that they have to do PvE to get a legendary weapon.
I for one am happy that there is finally something for a PvP player to work towards. It used to be that in order to get some PvE content through PvP, you had to put in 20 times the effort and get lucky on top of it. Before that, there wasn’t even any PvE content, you could get through PvP as PvP used its own item system.
Here’s the thing: If they ever made those wings available through PvE, it would take 5% of the time to get them, everyone would have them without having to put in any effort. That’s just how PvE is. Meanwhile, those who want to get the wings through PvP would still have to grind for them over multiple PvP seasons to finally get their hands on something, the PvE population basically got for free.
That’s the whole reason, it’s a PvP exclusive item in the first place: People are tired of grinding their kitten off to get something, a PvE player basically gets handed out for free. Additionally, there’s items, you can not even get through PvP and only through running fractals(fractal reward track plx). I think, fractals are inherently not fun and running through the same fractal with whatever small gimmick arena.net came up with to alter the fractal a bit for the hundredth time is a meaningless activity.
Yet if you want certain items, you HAVE to do it. And there is no other way to get those specific items.
So now, at last, PvP players have something exclusive, something they can work for without it being handed out for free to non-PvP players and something that is actually a reasonable goal to work towards.
If I want a legendary, I will either have to grind through a dungeon reward track for weeks or I will have to swallow my pride and go to the dungeon to do some explo. For my dreamer, reward tracks weren’t even on the table yet. Did I complain? No. I took my thief to twilight arbor, gathered some guild mates and did the kitten thing.
The first couple runs were refreshing and the last ones were mind-numbingly boring, but I sat through it, got my gift of thorns and completed my dreamer.
There is a lot of content that’s locked behind certain types of activities not everyone enjoys. there is also a lot of content that’s exclusive to exactly one type of activity, yet nobody bats an eyebrow that they need to die of boredom while doing fractals in order to finally get their hands on ad infinitum.
I for one certainly won’t work towards that one at all because fractals are dreadfully boring. Your mileage may vary and that’s cool with me. Shoot for the stars.
Just please don’t freak out just because one specific item is locked behind something, you regard a dull, repetitive activity. Every single item is locked behind dull, repetitive activities to some people. Those people then just choose, not to work towards those specific items.
Why are people bothering to even reply to this again?
Why are people bothering to even reply to this again?
‘Cause it’s funny.
There’s only a reasonably small number of things more entertaining than someone not liking your choice of game mode feeling that they have to tell you they like it -less- because you get a perk for playing it.
Entitlement is top kek. Suffer with the other pvpers or don’t get the wings, same as we have to suffer to get Mawdrey/Spinal blades/etc.
Here’s the thing: If they ever made those wings available through PvE, it would take 5% of the time to get them, everyone would have them without having to put in any effort.
Doesn’t have to be. What is the grand total it takes to get the wings via PvP? The achievements are a bit complicated, but as near as I can tell, it involves winning at least 150 matches, and something like 25 matches with two different characters, plus you need to climb at least 10 total division markers, though not consecutively. This does not seem at all unreasonable as a long term goal for a PvPer. I mean, at even three matches per day, this would only take a month and a half of effort.
That doesn’t seem unreasonable for those that claim to enjoy PvP. Now, sure, they have to win those matches, and that can be difficult, but even with the intended 50/50 W/L ratio, that would still mean only about three months of effort, which is nothing compared to a lot of existing rewards if you factor in earning gold. And of course a dedicated PvPer, and one who is actually good at what he’s doing, could accomplish it in far less time, someone who wins 10 matches per day could complete these objectives in just over two weeks of playing, someone who plays 20 matches per day in barely a week, and I imagine such players already existed before the League.
There is also a “complete X number of matches per day for Y number of days,” which is a strict time gate, not at all difficult, just time consuming. And progression is only available during certain windows, and locked out the rest of the year, which further slows down the speed at which you can earn it, but this is not a difficulty, it’s just a hardcap time gate to slow people down deliberately, nothing to do about it.
So to argue that the PvP wings take so much more effort, or are impossible to match in PvE is a bit nonsense. You could fairly easily make an equivalent list of PvE activities, with similar requirements and time gates. I mean, you need to complete three PvP matches in tier 1, so an equivalent activity might be needing to complete the entire night defense portion of Verdant Brink each day for 15 days. Later tiers could be for Tarir, Chak Gerant, and Dragon’s Stand. Then you’d have the “win X matches with each class,” that’s easy, complete X relatively challenging boss fights using different classes. Same-same, not that hard to do. And since the league forms a hard time-gate, you do a similar thing with these, lock out the achievements when the window is closed so that players have to wait in between.
That’s the whole reason, it’s a PvP exclusive item in the first place: People are tired of grinding their kitten off to get something, a PvE player basically gets handed out for free.
Funny, because PvEers feel the same is true of PvPers, getting all sorts of rewards like dungeon gear and map-bonus gear with relatively little effort. Grass is always greener, I suppose.
I think, fractals are inherently not fun and running through the same fractal with whatever small gimmick arena.net came up with to alter the fractal a bit for the hundredth time is a meaningless activity.
Yet if you want certain items, you HAVE to do it. And there is no other way to get those specific items.
I agree with you on the first bit, Fractals are lame, and it is a bad thing that ANet forces players to do them if they want certain skins. They should have more options available, and that’s what you should be fighting for, a “Fractals PvP track,” for example, not to take things away from your fellow players.
There is a lot of content that’s locked behind certain types of activities not everyone enjoys. there is also a lot of content that’s exclusive to exactly one type of activity, yet nobody bats an eyebrow that they need to die of boredom while doing fractals in order to finally get their hands on ad infinitum.
You cite this as if this surrender to mediocrity and boredom is somehow virtuous. “They gave up, good for them!” If you are bored, if you are not enjoying your playing experience, that does not benefit anyone. You should not be bored, if you are bored then someone did something wrong. Rather than just giving up and accepting things for how they are, fight to make them better.
At the very least, don’t fight against other people willing to do what you’re too lazy to do yourself.
I’d like the dungeon master title without ever going to a single dungeon.
Personally, I have no objection, but I really think that titles and visual items are very different things. Personally, I don’t support giving players access to PvP titles like “Legendary Champion” without actually playing PvP, but I consider that something else entirely than a cosmetic reward which actually has inherent value. If you want that sort of thing, argue your case for it, but it is not my case.
See, that is your opinion, but you disregard anyone else’s opinion by stating them “wrong”. We all play GW2 for different reasons, and your take is that titles and visuals are different things, but they represent goals and prestige as they are the reward after doing content. A player wearing the legendary pvp wings will be noticed in a crowd, a player with the title The Eternal will be noticed in a crowd. These things have value to people, and we get them through doing content, and some skins are tied to specific content – yet you dont see the comparison with titles.
We all play GW2 for different reasons, and your take is that titles and visuals are different things, but they represent goals and prestige as they are the reward after doing content.
They do, but skins also change the appearance of your character, something which titles do not do. You can’t even see your own title unless you open the hero panel. You can argue that they have some things in common, but they are far more different than they are the same, and usually the point is only raised as a straw man argument. I do not believe that I have yet heard from someone who passionately believed that titles were just as important as skins, it’s mostly just people going “well what if they were?” so they could go on to shoot down proposals to make skins more available to a broader range of players.
Ultimately I just don’t care. More titles, less titles, whatever, I’m not bothered either way, it has nothing to do with skins.
We all play GW2 for different reasons, and your take is that titles and visuals are different things, but they represent goals and prestige as they are the reward after doing content.
They do, but skins also change the appearance of your character, something which titles do not do. You can’t even see your own title unless you open the hero panel. You can argue that they have some things in common, but they are far more different than they are the same, and usually the point is only raised as a straw man argument. I do not believe that I have yet heard from someone who passionately believed that titles were just as important as skins, it’s mostly just people going “well what if they were?” so they could go on to shoot down proposals to make skins more available to a broader range of players.
Ultimately I just don’t care. More titles, less titles, whatever, I’m not bothered either way, it has nothing to do with skins.
just hold CTRL and you actually do see your own title.
My issue with the league system is when you win one game and lose the next one. That one loss wipes away your progress, unless you got 2 pips for that one win.
I would like it better if by default you got 2 pips when you win and lost 1 pip when you lose. For me, I get mostly win-lose-win-lose with occasional win or lose streaks that have some 3-5 wins or losses in a row so unless I get 2 pips for a win most of my games don’t get me anywhere.
Well if you want the PvP legendary wings, you gotta do a lot of PvP unfortunately. It sounds like sPvP isn’t your favorite mode, so maybe you might enjoy the game more if you aimed for content in other areas, like the fractal legendary.
The Fractal wings are even worse, but even if that weren’t the case, they are two different wings. It’s not like “either/or,”it’s not like “the PvP wings aren’t your thing, so go for the Fractal Wings instead,” If someone wants the PvP wings, then they _want the PvP Wings," there’s no alternative available.
Now what would be a valid alternative is if you could earn Ascension Backpiece via other activity tracks that don’t involve the PvP Leagues, but that is not currently on the table, so instead I now have to spend a great deal of my time in game HATING what I am doing. GG ANet.
Sorry to say that yes, PvP wings are about PvP, if you dont enjoy PvP, you have nothing to do with the wings. Anet has made mistakes, but what are you saying has nothing to do with Anet’s job
Wow. Just wow. If OP isnt trolling, because of people like him we cant have nice things.
Isn’t this the guy who, a couple of months ago, openly admitted on these forums to participating in match manipulation to get dailies or reward tracks or something? Why is he still not banned? Paging Mr Chris Cleary? What even?
. . . even more than I already did.
I mean, I never liked PvP, at all, but I still played unranked a few times a month to fill out my dailies sometimes. And it was usually awful, but I had a pretty decent win/loss average, and it wasn’t completely intollerable.
If you hate PvP and only play unranked for your dailies, why are you affected by leagues? Leagues are only in ranked and you can still play unranked for your dailies.
My issue with the league system is when you win one game and lose the next one. That one loss wipes away your progress, unless you got 2 pips for that one win.
I would like it better if by default you got 2 pips when you win and lost 1 pip when you lose. For me, I get mostly win-lose-win-lose with occasional win or lose streaks that have some 3-5 wins or losses in a row so unless I get 2 pips for a win most of my games don’t get me anywhere.
This is what any sensible person would’ve made the system to be like. But no, in a game where your odds are basically the same as tossing a coint, of course making wins count the same as loses is totally a brilliant idea.
@Ohoni click the meta-achievement and you will see it doesn’t force you to play all classes at all. It just asks u to win 5 matches with 2x classes. The rest are optional.
@Ohoni click the meta-achievement and you will see it doesn’t force you to play all classes at all. It just asks u to win 5 matches with 2x classes. The rest are optional.
Yes, I became aware of that after, It’s not very clearly shown though, and not one of the biggest issues with the meta.
If you hate PvP and only play unranked for your dailies, why are you affected by leagues? Leagues are only in ranked and you can still play unranked for your dailies.
Because they added the Ascension wings ONLY to ranked PvP, meaning the only way to get them is by doing ranked PvP matches, no matter how horrible it may be.
As I said, I’d like nothing better than for them to remove that requirement so that we wouldn’t have to do PvP.
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