Guild Wars 2

Leagues still have zero correlation to skill, we all know this, but some very obvious things need to happen before leagues correlate to skill.

The reason for this issue is manifold, but the major ones are :
A. Too many checkpoint and safespots on the ladder.
B. Per player in game evaluation isn’t considered nor is there a system in place to do this.
C. Teams can often carry singular players because of lack of B.

Now these are my proposal to implement a way that leagues ACTUALLY correlate to skill, some of which will likely never happen for various reasons. But the goal of this post is to get leagues to correlate skill and this is how I would do it.

1. SoloQ/DuoQ and teamQ, this avoids people being carried. But also creates a team based competitive environment that is competitive.

2. MMR needs re-evaluation, it adjusts way to drastically based on 2 losses or 2 victories in a row. This leads to streaks that are extremely unhealthy.

3. Match contribution needs to be evaluated and reworked so that you can gain pips based on contribution. This will encourage people to play to the end. A loss and almost no contribution is a 2 pip loss. A win and major contribution should be a 3 pip gain. A loss but close score should award 1 pip at most if major contributer, 0 pips for above average and -1 for average and below.
Match contribution rework is what this entire suggestion hinges on, it needs to be done properly and tested extensively.

4. To accommodate the above you need to greatly increase the total pip requirement for rank climbing and slightly increase tier pip requirement.

5. Pre-season seeding. Using a certain amount of games + previous season MMR + rank to determine a starting league where the MAJORITY of players start in emerald, good players seed to sapphire and the best of the best seed to ruby, new and bad players seed to amber obviously.

6. Tier loss should be implemented from emerald and up. Rank loss should be implemented from ruby(so you can drop down to sapphrie, where the average players should be after a season). You could drop to a lower rank if you lose 3 consecutive games with below average contribution after reaching zero pips.

Yes, some of these are pretty unspecific, but i am terrible at match, so ill leave the to the people that know better.

Feel free to discuss and improve on my ideas. In a perfect world we might get this.

EDIT : I want to add that this system would mean you climb if you play well, instead of climbing by streaking.
So if you win 1, lost 1 constantly, which is HEALTHY, you should still climb if you played well, which is extremely important.

Of course there’s a correlation of skill. It’s not perfect, but there’s a reason that pro league players are all legendary.

It’s also the same reason why you can watch low tier games and see huge mistakes. I mean, I steamrolled through amber, sapphire, and even most of ruby doing things like winning 1 v 1s on a thief and capping an undefended mid point. There’s still plenty of dumb stuff that happens, even in legendary games, but not nearly to the same extent that you see at lower tier games.

Novuake.2691:

2. MMR needs re-evaluation, it adjusts way to drastically based on 2 losses or 2 victories in a row. This leads to streaks that are extremely unhealthy.

It doesn’t do that, especially if you were heavily favored to win or lose. This is community perception and it’s just wrong. People go on loss streaks because they aren’t playing well—it’s not the system. Anyone who wants a zero-risk 50% winrate should go unranked.

Novuake.2691:

2. MMR needs re-evaluation, it adjusts way to drastically based on 2 losses or 2 victories in a row. This leads to streaks that are extremely unhealthy.

I suggest you actually research Glicko-2 system before making these wild assumptions. If someone has had a stable MMR for a long period of time, they will gain a low rating deviation and sudden win/loss streaks will have extremely small impact on actual MMR. Large changes in MMR tend only to occur for new players or for players who have been inactive for a long period of time (unless you somehow lose 100 consecutive games or something ridiculous like that).

Novuake.2691:

3. Match contribution needs to be evaluated and reworked so that you can gain pips based on contribution.

This is impossible to calculate. How can a system possibly know that a single player has been leading two enemy players on a wild goose chase around the map for half the game? Any system would see this is zero contribution unless you used distance traveled or something, but then you could just randomly run around the map to gain contribution. This is only one example of why contribution doesn’t work.

@Random Weird Guy.3528

I honestly don’t believe thats the case. It won’t be easy, sure.

Also leading 2 people in a wild goosechase doesn’t automatically make it a good thing to do.

As for glicko, you can’t deny winstreaks and lsoing streaks are common, this isn’t some sort of conspiracy.

I’m 100% against contribution scores. It will undoubtedly, guarantee that players will find a strategy to efficiently farm contribution in a way that’s a detriment to the gameplay, and also leaving playstyles dead that don’t contribute on paper as much.

Scrap it

Dahkeus.8243:

Of course there’s a correlation of skill. It’s not perfect, but there’s a reason that pro league players are all legendary.

It’s also the same reason why you can watch low tier games and see huge mistakes. I mean, I steamrolled through amber, sapphire, and even most of ruby doing things like winning 1 v 1s on a thief and capping an undefended mid point. There’s still plenty of dumb stuff that happens, even in legendary games, but not nearly to the same extent that you see at lower tier games.

Is that why people in low legendary that ive seen still have no concept of rotation?

Obviously the pros will climb out, they roflstomp poeple, just because they are in legendary+ does not mean the system isn’t flawed.

The average player shouldn’t be in ruby in the first place, which is how it is now.

Novuake.2691:

As for glicko, you can’t deny winstreaks and lsoing streaks are common, this isn’t some sort of conspiracy.

Yes and I have had large losing streaks followed by large win streaks multiple times this season. According to your logic, this is impossible because my MMR would be so screwed by the losing streak that I couldn’t possibly get a win streak right after.

Try something out – go find a random number generator and generate random numbers between 0 and 1 and look at the large streaks that you can get just from randomness. Must be conspiracy right?

Lol, just wanted to touch on the Glicko thing. I don’t have the data with me, but you are MMR can change by at least 25 point against a pro team. So I don’t know where you guys are getting it doesn’t change by a lot. So if you lost 10 games in row, that’s paramount to a 250 pts loss in MMR and fyi: the default MMR is 1500 the max is 5000.

And also, few are those who have 5k+ ranked games, so the deviation is pretty high for most players.

@Op I won’t say 0 corrolation even though I agree that your A B and C will skew the relationship between div and league.

I agree with with much of what you said. And about number 3; the system has ways to factor that in. Players #stats, their personal score ( I am pretty lenient on this one), and much more… so for a roamer (I. E a thief , the combustion of his personal score and stats can shed a light of the player controbution; same with supp or dps class). Nice thread overall, but if I may I they should bring back class MMR; I am losing lots of games because of achievement chaser. Anet has to fix this.

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Novuake.2691:

As for glicko, you can’t deny winstreaks and lsoing streaks are common, this isn’t some sort of conspiracy.

Yes and I have had large losing streaks followed by large win streaks multiple times this season. According to your logic, this is impossible because my MMR would be so screwed by the losing streak that I couldn’t possibly get a win streak right after.

Try something out – go find a random number generator and generate random numbers between 0 and 1 and look at the large streaks that you can get just from randomness. Must be conspiracy right?

Except this isn’t a case of 1s and 0s.

You can look at recurring teammates with and against you, same people for many games on end that very rarely swap to your side or vice versa, you can look at score disparity in these streaks are rare anywhere near 250 to 500.

Comparing apples to donkeys really is pointless.

Chaith.8256:

I’m 100% against contribution scores. It will undoubtedly, guarantee that players will find a strategy to efficiently farm contribution in a way that’s a detriment to the gameplay, and also leaving playstyles dead that don’t contribute on paper as much.

Scrap it

It wouldn’t be easy to get it right, but how would you do it otherwise? How else will would you promote individual players out of lower tiers in the short period a season lasts?

Novuake.2691:

Also leading 2 people in a wild goosechase doesn’t automatically make it a good thing to do.

And that’s exactly my point…
It can contribute heavily when it allows your team to easily win the map due to the number advantage, but in other situations it can also be better just to regroup with your team.
There is no way for the system to differentiate the two unless someone manually codes in every possible scenario including the position/heath/cds/etc of every player in every scenario.

Funny that guy is actually pushing his anecdotal experience against the facts; lol of course you can win after losing 20 games in row, the facts are it’s X vs X . So you never know what might happen … it’s not like the system was pitting you against High MMR players all the time.

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Novuake.2691:

Also leading 2 people in a wild goosechase doesn’t automatically make it a good thing to do.

And that’s exactly my point…
It can contribute heavily when it allows your team to easily win the map due to the number advantage, but in other situations it can also be better just to regroup with your team.
There is no way for the system to differentiate the two unless someone manually codes in every possible scenario including the position/heath/cds/etc of every player in every scenario.

No way for the CURRENT system.

Fivedawgs.4267:

Funny that guy is actually pushing his anecdotal experience against the facts; lol of course you can win after losing 20 games in row, the facts are it’s X vs X . So you never know what might happen … it’s not like the system was pitting you against High MMR players all the time.

Funny how thousands of experiences over thousands of players disagree with your “facts” that are based on a framework(Glycko) that isn’t fully applicable to matchmaking in GW2 PvP because it of the way matches are formed.

There are some valid points here as well.

Now granted I am on the side that there is something off in matching making at times, but this thread isn’t about that. The following does key off match making being adjusted from S2 to S3.

In order to have people balance out where they should be there should be a way for people to fall back thru divisions. It makes sense that people should be able to level down if needed to account for issues that might have raised them higher then their skill level accounts for. That way if you see someone in a higher tier odds are a bit better that they should be at that level. People should be able to fall back to Sapphire and Emerald should be able to lose tiers. I say this even as I am stubborn idiot and not taking match breaks when I should have as well at times to get out of a rut or let people I was being matched with get into other games.

The idea that individual performance should also be accounted for might be tricky since many people feel that the point system is still missing elements in personal scoring but that doesn’t mean it isn’t directional and might have some merit if adjusted. Issues like multiple people capping or zerging kills would have to be accounted for. Example, 2 people cap, personal score for cap is divided by 2. 3 people kill one enemy score divided by 3 and such.

But there are times where an outlier should have been additionally rewarded for their activities on their team pending their performance. This might also allow for people to more quickly move to a tier that is more appropriate for them. If I am having an off game, that doesn’t mean that Joe Pvper that did awesome shouldn’t be rewarded for their effort if they shined. What that point differential is would need to be determined based on numbers ANet is collecting throughout this season and potentially adjusted per season as the matching making algorithms are adjusted.

Season one’s system where close matches were sometimes rewarded also seems to have encouraged more people to fight to the end versus giving up since a 500 point lose was the same as a 1 point lose in the new season. Seeing something between the two for season 3 would be a great thing to have in place.

I think most agree either way that there are still more adjustments that could be made before the beginning of S3. Right now it still feels like ye who grinds the most makes the most. It would be nice to have a better confidence that people that made their rank and keep it truly earned it. Good hunting!

Novuake.2691:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Novuake.2691:

Also leading 2 people in a wild goosechase doesn’t automatically make it a good thing to do.

And that’s exactly my point…
It can contribute heavily when it allows your team to easily win the map due to the number advantage, but in other situations it can also be better just to regroup with your team.
There is no way for the system to differentiate the two unless someone manually codes in every possible scenario including the position/heath/cds/etc of every player in every scenario.

No way for the CURRENT system.

Ok show me a system that can do that.

Novuake.2691:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Novuake.2691:

As for glicko, you can’t deny winstreaks and lsoing streaks are common, this isn’t some sort of conspiracy.

Yes and I have had large losing streaks followed by large win streaks multiple times this season. According to your logic, this is impossible because my MMR would be so screwed by the losing streak that I couldn’t possibly get a win streak right after.

Try something out – go find a random number generator and generate random numbers between 0 and 1 and look at the large streaks that you can get just from randomness. Must be conspiracy right?

Except this isn’t a case of 1s and 0s.

You can look at recurring teammates with and against you, same people for many games on end that very rarely swap to your side or vice versa, you can look at score disparity in these streaks are rare anywhere near 250 to 500.

Comparing apples to donkeys really is pointless.

Except that it’s mostly a mentality problem. Every single video that has been posted on the forums claiming “mmr hell” had been completely shot down as a winnable game if the poster had actually put a reasonable level of thought into it. Show me a video pf 3 consecutive games that you lost and were unwinnable (afks and dcs don’t count because the system can’t predict these).

Novuake.2691:

Fivedawgs.4267:

Funny that guy is actually pushing his anecdotal experience against the facts; lol of course you can win after losing 20 games in row, the facts are it’s X vs X . So you never know what might happen … it’s not like the system was pitting you against High MMR players all the time.

Funny how thousands of experiences over thousands of players disagree with your “facts” that are based on a framework(Glycko) that isn’t fully applicable to matchmaking in GW2 PvP because it of the way matches are formed.

Lol I was talking about the other guy, why is it that you disagree with?? As a matter of fact I was replying to his post, but tell me why are you disagreeing with me? Lol

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Except that it’s mostly a mentality problem. Every single video that has been posted on the forums claiming “mmr hell” had been completely shot down as a winnable game if the poster had actually put a reasonable level of thought into it. Show me a video pf 3 consecutive games that you lost and were unwinnable (afks and dcs don’t count because the system can’t predict these).

Other than this being extremely hard to believe! Ill play along.

The simplest example would be that your team losing first teamfight and commence running in 1 by 1.

There is nothing an individual player can do in a situation where the moment you spawn the previous person that spawn is already running to their death in a 3 or 2v1.
You are essentially hoping your enemy overextends in cases like these to create equal fights again. Its not winnable on you as an individual.

Sure you can wait for next spawn and go in with 2, but where assuming enemy has far and mid. Lets say they are split 2/3, you go far, you are still hoping your enemy makes a mistake and does not rotate. Or you go mid and its the same story, you hope the enemy does not rotate to create 4v2.

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Novuake.2691:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Novuake.2691:

As for glicko, you can’t deny winstreaks and lsoing streaks are common, this isn’t some sort of conspiracy.

Yes and I have had large losing streaks followed by large win streaks multiple times this season. According to your logic, this is impossible because my MMR would be so screwed by the losing streak that I couldn’t possibly get a win streak right after.

Try something out – go find a random number generator and generate random numbers between 0 and 1 and look at the large streaks that you can get just from randomness. Must be conspiracy right?

Except this isn’t a case of 1s and 0s.

You can look at recurring teammates with and against you, same people for many games on end that very rarely swap to your side or vice versa, you can look at score disparity in these streaks are rare anywhere near 250 to 500.

Comparing apples to donkeys really is pointless.

Except that it’s mostly a mentality problem. Every single video that has been posted on the forums claiming “mmr hell” had been completely shot down as a winnable game if the poster had actually put a reasonable level of thought into it. Show me a video pf 3 consecutive games that you lost and were unwinnable (afks and dcs don’t count because the system can’t predict these).

Let me just cut you there, I can show you any video of a loss by the abjured or any other pro Esl team, you know what?? We will find a mistake. True afker and dcer don’t count, what count is the you could be facing 1 vs 10 or 5 vs 5 or 10 vs 1.

So folks who are crying about MMR hell have every right to do so.

Novuake.2691:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Except that it’s mostly a mentality problem. Every single video that has been posted on the forums claiming “mmr hell” had been completely shot down as a winnable game if the poster had actually put a reasonable level of thought into it. Show me a video pf 3 consecutive games that you lost and were unwinnable (afks and dcs don’t count because the system can’t predict these).

Other than this being extremely hard to believe! Ill play along.

The simplest example would be that your team losing first teamfight and commence running in 1 by 1.

There is nothing an individual player can do in a situation where the moment you spawn the previous person that spawn is already running to their death in a 3 or 2v1.
You are essentially hoping your enemy overextends in cases like these to create equal fights again. Its not winnable on you as an individual.

Sure you can wait for next spawn and go in with 2, but where assuming enemy has far and mid. Lets say they are split 2/3, you go far, you are still hoping your enemy makes a mistake and does not rotate. Or you go mid and its the same story, you hope the enemy does not rotate to create 4v2.

This only happens at low levels of play where both teams are going to be clueless about rotation. At this level, people don’t know how to come back from a losing situation, so the game is determined by the first team fight. This is all just theory though, would still need to see consecutive games where the opener was impossible. You will obviously get these occasionally purely due to chance that multiple players made a significant mistake that they would not usually make (you will know plenty of times that this happened to you), but at lower levels of play this destroys the entire match, which is why I ask for consecutive games.

Random Weird Guy.3528:

This only happens at low levels of play where both teams are going to be clueless about rotation.

I see this in consecutive games from legendary players, because once again. Skill =/= league.

So I gave you an example and you dismiss it as irrelevant because low level play? LOL do you not realize how bad that is?
Not to mention that not just higher levels of play matter, decent low tier players should be able to differentiate themselves from terrible players, but they can’t as an individual.

Your entire argument just fell flat because you disregard lower tiers of play.

Sadly I don’t record, but I wish I did.

Fivedawgs.4267:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Novuake.2691:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Novuake.2691:

As for glicko, you can’t deny winstreaks and lsoing streaks are common, this isn’t some sort of conspiracy.

Yes and I have had large losing streaks followed by large win streaks multiple times this season. According to your logic, this is impossible because my MMR would be so screwed by the losing streak that I couldn’t possibly get a win streak right after.

Try something out – go find a random number generator and generate random numbers between 0 and 1 and look at the large streaks that you can get just from randomness. Must be conspiracy right?

Except this isn’t a case of 1s and 0s.

You can look at recurring teammates with and against you, same people for many games on end that very rarely swap to your side or vice versa, you can look at score disparity in these streaks are rare anywhere near 250 to 500.

Comparing apples to donkeys really is pointless.

Except that it’s mostly a mentality problem. Every single video that has been posted on the forums claiming “mmr hell” had been completely shot down as a winnable game if the poster had actually put a reasonable level of thought into it. Show me a video pf 3 consecutive games that you lost and were unwinnable (afks and dcs don’t count because the system can’t predict these).

Let me just cut you there, I can show you any video of a loss by the abjured or any other pro Esl team, you know what?? We will find a mistake. True afker and dcer don’t count, what count is the you could be facing 1 vs 10 or 5 vs 5 or 10 vs 1.

So folks who are crying about MMR hell have every right to do so.

I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make here. Are you saying that every team makes game-changing mistakes? Because then you’re agreeing with me that most of the games are winnable. Or are you trying to compare esl matches that have nothing to do with matchmaking?

Novuake.2691:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

This only happens at low levels of play where both teams are going to be clueless about rotation.

I see this from legendary players, because once again. Skill =/= league.

So I gave you an example and you dismiss it as irrelevant because low level play? LOL do you not realize how bad that is?

Did I say at any point that only good players are in legendary? No I didn’t. I am only disagreeing with 2 of the points that you made in your post.

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Did I say at any point that only good players are in legendary? No I didn’t. I am only disagreeing with 2 of the points that you made in your post.

Read again. Your disagreeing made your entire argument invalid.

Sometimes I wonder if people really don’t think past their own experience.

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Fivedawgs.4267:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Novuake.2691:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Novuake.2691:

As for glicko, you can’t deny winstreaks and lsoing streaks are common, this isn’t some sort of conspiracy.

Yes and I have had large losing streaks followed by large win streaks multiple times this season. According to your logic, this is impossible because my MMR would be so screwed by the losing streak that I couldn’t possibly get a win streak right after.

Try something out – go find a random number generator and generate random numbers between 0 and 1 and look at the large streaks that you can get just from randomness. Must be conspiracy right?

Except this isn’t a case of 1s and 0s.

You can look at recurring teammates with and against you, same people for many games on end that very rarely swap to your side or vice versa, you can look at score disparity in these streaks are rare anywhere near 250 to 500.

Comparing apples to donkeys really is pointless.

Except that it’s mostly a mentality problem. Every single video that has been posted on the forums claiming “mmr hell” had been completely shot down as a winnable game if the poster had actually put a reasonable level of thought into it. Show me a video pf 3 consecutive games that you lost and were unwinnable (afks and dcs don’t count because the system can’t predict these).

Let me just cut you there, I can show you any video of a loss by the abjured or any other pro Esl team, you know what?? We will find a mistake. True afker and dcer don’t count, what count is the you could be facing 1 vs 10 or 5 vs 5 or 10 vs 1.

So folks who are crying about MMR hell have every right to do so.

I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make here. Are you saying that every team makes game-changing mistakes? Because then you’re agreeing with me that most of the games are winnable. Or are you trying to compare esl matches that have nothing to do with matchmaking?

Far from it, my point being if mistakes are what you’re looking for; you will find them.

Novuake.2691:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Did I say at any point that only good players are in legendary? No I didn’t. I am only disagreeing with 2 of the points that you made in your post.

Read again. Your disagreeing made your entire argument invalid.

Sometimes I wonder if people really don’t think past their own experience.

I suggest you read my post again since you took it out of context. Feeding after losing a teamfight is irrelevant due to the fact that at that level of play, the match is usually lost at that point due to players not understanding how to comeback. I like how you completely ignored the second half of my post regarding the opening fight.

And you are basing your argument purely on people who complained about MMR hell on the forums, which in itself is a tiny percentage of forum posters when you look at the number of people who shot down those posts, even smaller when you consider that most people don’t post on the forums if they are happy with the game.

Fivedawgs.4267:

Let me just cut you there, I can show you any video of a loss by the abjured or any other pro Esl team, you know what?? We will find a mistake. True afker and dcer don’t count, what count is the you could be facing 1 vs 10 or 5 vs 5 or 10 vs 1.

So folks who are crying about MMR hell have every right to do so.

Folks who are crying about MMR hell have every right to do so because of losses to pro ESL teams that they were helpless against?

You’ve kind of discredited yourself forever on the subject, in my personal view. I question if full roster pro teams on NA have even once queued casual league play in Season2. Let alone it’d take farming day and night, and hax to never leave the pip range of the person who’s MMR got tanked by pro teamz.

Anyone with general understanding of the league system knows that MMR hell is probably the last thing to associate with even solo queued top40 players.

Novuake.2691:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Did I say at any point that only good players are in legendary? No I didn’t. I am only disagreeing with 2 of the points that you made in your post.

Read again. Your disagreeing made your entire argument invalid.

Sometimes I wonder if people really don’t think past their own experience.

Most of us do but when someone has something stuck in their head and someone is disagreeing with them they will find something to attribute it to.

But I would really like this "facts""fivedawgsandaguy" guy to keep talking it’s hysterical.

Uses the same kitten everywhere omg some guy made a model that doesn’t actually show anything but I’m a call it facts dawg. And all you are wrong because of anecdote dawg. I can’t get out of ruby so clearly the game and everyone are out to get me dawg.

These pity parties are getting ridiculous.

Chaith.8256:

Fivedawgs.4267:

Let me just cut you there, I can show you any video of a loss by the abjured or any other pro Esl team, you know what?? We will find a mistake. True afker and dcer don’t count, what count is the you could be facing 1 vs 10 or 5 vs 5 or 10 vs 1.

So folks who are crying about MMR hell have every right to do so.

Folks who are crying about MMR hell have every right to do so because of losses to pro ESL teams that they were helpless against?

You’ve kind of discredited yourself forever on the subject, in my personal view. I question if full roster pro teams on NA have even once queued casual league play in Season2. Let alone it’d take farming day and night, and hax to never leave the pip range of the person who’s MMR got tanked by pro teamz.

Anyone with general understanding of the league system knows that MMR hell is probably the last thing to associate with even solo queued top40 players.

Nope, that’s not what I said/ meant ( don’t want to scroll up to check). They have very right to do so because of X vs X.

I mentioned the Abjured ( season 1 finals game 2) because everyone is prone to make them. I belive random point was, based on the vids he has seen, those loss games could have been avoided, if A did this or B did that.

Fivedawgs.4267:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Novuake.2691:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Novuake.2691:

As for glicko, you can’t deny winstreaks and lsoing streaks are common, this isn’t some sort of conspiracy.

Yes and I have had large losing streaks followed by large win streaks multiple times this season. According to your logic, this is impossible because my MMR would be so screwed by the losing streak that I couldn’t possibly get a win streak right after.

Try something out – go find a random number generator and generate random numbers between 0 and 1 and look at the large streaks that you can get just from randomness. Must be conspiracy right?

Except this isn’t a case of 1s and 0s.

You can look at recurring teammates with and against you, same people for many games on end that very rarely swap to your side or vice versa, you can look at score disparity in these streaks are rare anywhere near 250 to 500.

Comparing apples to donkeys really is pointless.

Except that it’s mostly a mentality problem. Every single video that has been posted on the forums claiming “mmr hell” had been completely shot down as a winnable game if the poster had actually put a reasonable level of thought into it. Show me a video pf 3 consecutive games that you lost and were unwinnable (afks and dcs don’t count because the system can’t predict these).

Let me just cut you there, I can show you any video of a loss by the abjured or any other pro Esl team, you know what?? We will find a mistake. True afker and dcer don’t count, what count is the you could be facing 1 vs 10 or 5 vs 5 or 10 vs 1.

So folks who are crying about MMR hell have every right to do so.

Fivedawgs.4267:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Fivedawgs.4267:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Novuake.2691:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Novuake.2691:

As for glicko, you can’t deny winstreaks and lsoing streaks are common, this isn’t some sort of conspiracy.

Yes and I have had large losing streaks followed by large win streaks multiple times this season. According to your logic, this is impossible because my MMR would be so screwed by the losing streak that I couldn’t possibly get a win streak right after.

Try something out – go find a random number generator and generate random numbers between 0 and 1 and look at the large streaks that you can get just from randomness. Must be conspiracy right?

Except this isn’t a case of 1s and 0s.

You can look at recurring teammates with and against you, same people for many games on end that very rarely swap to your side or vice versa, you can look at score disparity in these streaks are rare anywhere near 250 to 500.

Comparing apples to donkeys really is pointless.

Except that it’s mostly a mentality problem. Every single video that has been posted on the forums claiming “mmr hell” had been completely shot down as a winnable game if the poster had actually put a reasonable level of thought into it. Show me a video pf 3 consecutive games that you lost and were unwinnable (afks and dcs don’t count because the system can’t predict these).

Let me just cut you there, I can show you any video of a loss by the abjured or any other pro Esl team, you know what?? We will find a mistake. True afker and dcer don’t count, what count is the you could be facing 1 vs 10 or 5 vs 5 or 10 vs 1.

So folks who are crying about MMR hell have every right to do so.

I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make here. Are you saying that every team makes game-changing mistakes? Because then you’re agreeing with me that most of the games are winnable. Or are you trying to compare esl matches that have nothing to do with matchmaking?

Far from it, my point being if mistakes are what you’re looking for; you will find them.

And in soloq where voice communication doesn’t exist and people don’t know each other, mistakes are far more likely to happen.

Anyway, my original point was that everyone who has posted a video on the forums relating to MMR hell has been shown that the match was winnable if they made better rotational decisions. If they can’t make these decisions, then they don’t belong in higher divisions and the system is working as intended.

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Novuake.2691:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Did I say at any point that only good players are in legendary? No I didn’t. I am only disagreeing with 2 of the points that you made in your post.

Read again. Your disagreeing made your entire argument invalid.

Sometimes I wonder if people really don’t think past their own experience.

I suggest you read my post again since you took it out of context. Feeding after losing a teamfight is irrelevant due to the fact that at that level of play, the match is usually lost at that point due to players not understanding how to comeback. I like how you completely ignored the second half of my post regarding the opening fight.

And you are basing your argument purely on people who complained about MMR hell on the forums, which in itself is a tiny percentage of forum posters when you look at the number of people who shot down those posts, even smaller when you consider that most people don’t post on the forums if they are happy with the game.

And your claim was that one person can always win a match on his own merits no matter his team. Or did you forget that part?

Fivedawgs.4267:

Chaith.8256:

Fivedawgs.4267:

Let me just cut you there, I can show you any video of a loss by the abjured or any other pro Esl team, you know what?? We will find a mistake. True afker and dcer don’t count, what count is the you could be facing 1 vs 10 or 5 vs 5 or 10 vs 1.

So folks who are crying about MMR hell have every right to do so.

Folks who are crying about MMR hell have every right to do so because of losses to pro ESL teams that they were helpless against?

You’ve kind of discredited yourself forever on the subject, in my personal view. I question if full roster pro teams on NA have even once queued casual league play in Season2. Let alone it’d take farming day and night, and hax to never leave the pip range of the person who’s MMR got tanked by pro teamz.

Anyone with general understanding of the league system knows that MMR hell is probably the last thing to associate with even solo queued top40 players.

Nope, that’s not what I said/ meant ( don’t want to scroll up to check). They have very right to do so because of X vs X.

I mentioned the Abjured ( season 1 finals game 2) because everyone is prone to make them. I belive random point was, based on the vids he has seen, those loss games could have been avoided, if A did this or B did that.

Everyone makes mistakes in every division, that’s not what is being discussed. In the videos that were provided, it was the repeated mistakes and gameplay that enforced the opinion that the players were where the should be.

Novuake.2691:

Dahkeus.8243:

Of course there’s a correlation of skill. It’s not perfect, but there’s a reason that pro league players are all legendary.

It’s also the same reason why you can watch low tier games and see huge mistakes. I mean, I steamrolled through amber, sapphire, and even most of ruby doing things like winning 1 v 1s on a thief and capping an undefended mid point. There’s still plenty of dumb stuff that happens, even in legendary games, but not nearly to the same extent that you see at lower tier games.

Is that why people in low legendary that ive seen still have no concept of rotation?

Obviously the pros will climb out, they roflstomp poeple, just because they are in legendary+ does not mean the system isn’t flawed.

The average player shouldn’t be in ruby in the first place, which is how it is now.

“There’s still plenty of dumb stuff that happens, even in legendary games, but not nearly to the same extent that you see at lower tier games.” It’s like you didn’t even read that.

And the system was designed to have average players in ruby, above average in diamond, and great players at legendary. I agree there’s probably too many legendary players now, but there’s no good way to fix that:

1) You could shift all players down so that average is Sapphire instead of Ruby, but that would be incredibly unpopular since everyone expects to hit the same tier or higher on the next season.

2) You could ramp up the difficulty increase faster between Ruby and Legendary, but that would also greatly increase the amount of QQ about “MMR Hell” and cause even more inconsistency across matches due to a greater variance of skill across each division.

3) You could add another division between Ruby and Legendary, but that would mess up the reward track for the wings and would probably require a lot of work to handle all the side effects of this on the back end of the game.

Either way, the shift of where the average player lands isn’t really reflective of whether there’s a correlation between skill and division rank.

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Fivedawgs.4267:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Fivedawgs.4267:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Novuake.2691:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Novuake.2691:

As for glicko, you can’t deny winstreaks and lsoing streaks are common, this isn’t some sort of conspiracy.

Yes and I have had large losing streaks followed by large win streaks multiple times this season. According to your logic, this is impossible because my MMR would be so screwed by the losing streak that I couldn’t possibly get a win streak right after.

Try something out – go find a random number generator and generate random numbers between 0 and 1 and look at the large streaks that you can get just from randomness. Must be conspiracy right?

Except this isn’t a case of 1s and 0s.

You can look at recurring teammates with and against you, same people for many games on end that very rarely swap to your side or vice versa, you can look at score disparity in these streaks are rare anywhere near 250 to 500.

Comparing apples to donkeys really is pointless.

Except that it’s mostly a mentality problem. Every single video that has been posted on the forums claiming “mmr hell” had been completely shot down as a winnable game if the poster had actually put a reasonable level of thought into it. Show me a video pf 3 consecutive games that you lost and were unwinnable (afks and dcs don’t count because the system can’t predict these).

Let me just cut you there, I can show you any video of a loss by the abjured or any other pro Esl team, you know what?? We will find a mistake. True afker and dcer don’t count, what count is the you could be facing 1 vs 10 or 5 vs 5 or 10 vs 1.

So folks who are crying about MMR hell have every right to do so.

I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make here. Are you saying that every team makes game-changing mistakes? Because then you’re agreeing with me that most of the games are winnable. Or are you trying to compare esl matches that have nothing to do with matchmaking?

Far from it, my point being if mistakes are what you’re looking for; you will find them.

And in soloq where voice communication doesn’t exist and people don’t know each other, mistakes are far more likely to happen.

Anyway, my original point was that everyone who has posted a video on the forums relating to MMR hell has been shown that the match was winnable if they made better rotational decisions. If they can’t make these decisions, then they don’t belong in higher divisions and the system is working as intended.

True (first bol statement) still ( the rest of your post can be gainsaid with) 1 vs 10 or 10 vs 1, remeber 5 vs 5 do happen.

Pyriall.1683:

Fivedawgs.4267:

Chaith.8256:

Fivedawgs.4267:

Let me just cut you there, I can show you any video of a loss by the abjured or any other pro Esl team, you know what?? We will find a mistake. True afker and dcer don’t count, what count is the you could be facing 1 vs 10 or 5 vs 5 or 10 vs 1.

So folks who are crying about MMR hell have every right to do so.

Folks who are crying about MMR hell have every right to do so because of losses to pro ESL teams that they were helpless against?

You’ve kind of discredited yourself forever on the subject, in my personal view. I question if full roster pro teams on NA have even once queued casual league play in Season2. Let alone it’d take farming day and night, and hax to never leave the pip range of the person who’s MMR got tanked by pro teamz.

Anyone with general understanding of the league system knows that MMR hell is probably the last thing to associate with even solo queued top40 players.

Nope, that’s not what I said/ meant ( don’t want to scroll up to check). They have very right to do so because of X vs X.

I mentioned the Abjured ( season 1 finals game 2) because everyone is prone to make them. I belive random point was, based on the vids he has seen, those loss games could have been avoided, if A did this or B did that.

Everyone makes mistakes in every division, that’s not what is being discussed. In the videos that were provided, it was the repeated mistakes and gameplay that enforced the opinion that the players were where the should be.

That’s what being discussed here, bease those mistake affect the whole team regardless of who make them.

Novuake.2691:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Novuake.2691:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Did I say at any point that only good players are in legendary? No I didn’t. I am only disagreeing with 2 of the points that you made in your post.

Read again. Your disagreeing made your entire argument invalid.

Sometimes I wonder if people really don’t think past their own experience.

I suggest you read my post again since you took it out of context. Feeding after losing a teamfight is irrelevant due to the fact that at that level of play, the match is usually lost at that point due to players not understanding how to comeback. I like how you completely ignored the second half of my post regarding the opening fight.

And you are basing your argument purely on people who complained about MMR hell on the forums, which in itself is a tiny percentage of forum posters when you look at the number of people who shot down those posts, even smaller when you consider that most people don’t post on the forums if they are happy with the game.

And your claim was that one person can always win a match on his own merits no matter his team. Or did you forget that part?

Everyone has to carry some part of the weight, did you forget the part where I said that every video that was posted about mmr hell so far showed that the poster was equally responsible for the lack of rotation?

@Fivedawgs, When you worded it ‘a loss by the X pro team’ I thought you meant a loss caused by them, now I see you were talking about their own losses.

You’re suggesting that even pro matches you can pick apart the decisions that ended up causing a loss, and that means that people who claim to be in MMR hell have a justification to moan even if they’re making (terrible) decisions that throw the game, too.

Not better..

Ok time to stop arguing over nothing, random had two issue with the system and tried to bring up questionable facts to support his claims ( winning after loss streak, misunderstanding of the Glicko algorithm ,disregarding the X vs X and focusing more on mistake, etc..) but his points were valid, even though I disagreed with him, since I belive the personal score ( which I think should be removed ) and the players stats/ the number of combo performed by the player can pretty much tell she’d a light on the player performance. But he had a valid point.4 and the OP said the current system didn’t have those tools and we hope the next one would.

So back on topic guys…

Chaith.8256:

@Fivedawgs, When you worded it ‘a loss by the X pro team’ I thought you meant a loss caused by them, now I see you were talking about their own losses.

You’re suggesting that even pro matches you can pick apart the decisions that ended up causing a loss, and that means that people who claim to be in MMR hell have a justification to moan even if they’re making (terrible) decisions that throw the game, too.

Not better..

Ok if that’s what I meant, then allow me guys to disagree with myself. If anyone is losing games because of hi mistake, please take some time to improve your skills/ or whatever is causing the loss. However. If you ( as a playerr) are complaining about X vs X, you have every right to do so.

Fivedawgs.4267:

Lol, just wanted to touch on the Glicko thing. I don’t have the data with me, but you are MMR can change by at least 25 point against a pro team. So I don’t know where you guys are getting it doesn’t change by a lot. So if you lost 10 games in row, that’s paramount to a 250 pts loss in MMR and fyi: the default MMR is 1500 the max is 5000.

Are you sure about this?

A minimum loss of 25 points is completely stupid, I still remember the days in GW1 GvG when the minimum loss was just ONE point and the maximum was 15.

Fivedawgs.4267:

Lol, just wanted to touch on the Glicko thing. I don’t have the data with me, but you are MMR can change by at least 25 point against a pro team. So I don’t know where you guys are getting it doesn’t change by a lot. So if you lost 10 games in row, that’s paramount to a 250 pts loss in MMR and fyi: the default MMR is 1500 the max is 5000.

25 point loss is nothing. Also, if you lose 10 games in a row to people with vastly higher MMR than you (the definition of the putative MMR hell), then your MMR changes very little because you were favored to lose by the system. Please read:
http://www.glicko.net/glicko/glicko2.pdf

MMR hell isn’t the fault of the system. Ranked isn’t for everyone.

Salamander.2504:

Fivedawgs.4267:

Lol, just wanted to touch on the Glicko thing. I don’t have the data with me, but you are MMR can change by at least 25 point against a pro team. So I don’t know where you guys are getting it doesn’t change by a lot. So if you lost 10 games in row, that’s paramount to a 250 pts loss in MMR and fyi: the default MMR is 1500 the max is 5000.

25 point loss is nothing. Please read:
http://www.glicko.net/glicko/glicko2.pdf

Check the legend time queue thread, I have already went over it.

Fivedawgs.4267:

Salamander.2504:

Fivedawgs.4267:

Lol, just wanted to touch on the Glicko thing. I don’t have the data with me, but you are MMR can change by at least 25 point against a pro team. So I don’t know where you guys are getting it doesn’t change by a lot. So if you lost 10 games in row, that’s paramount to a 250 pts loss in MMR and fyi: the default MMR is 1500 the max is 5000.

25 point loss is nothing. Please read:
http://www.glicko.net/glicko/glicko2.pdf

Check the legend time queue thread, I have already went over it.

Pass me the link and I’ll read it.

Novuake.2691:

It wouldn’t be easy to get it right, but how would you do it otherwise? How else will would you promote individual players out of lower tiers in the short period a season lasts?

So the goal is to give additional pips to individual players based on merit, but I’m not convinced that is necessary to having a skill based league system. It might even create problems, like division getting way too high for their skill, via boosted rewards for beating on minionmancers & eles all game and accomplishing nothing.

I have a rather simple proposal to change the matchmaker so this problem doesn’t happen in the first place, and that’s simply ship a priority change of how MMR grouping works.

In any pip range we have a variety of MMRs, let’s group them into 3 camps – below average, average, and above average.

Right now, from my understanding of the matchmaker, we’ll have a team of 5 taken from the below average camp and randomly faced off against a team from the below average, average, or above average camp.

When ArenaNet heard our desires of having teammates relatively close to us in skill, this MMR grouping was absolutely NOT what we wanted, if I can be so bold as to speak for the general population.

The matchmaking in season1 was good in the way that it had high quality, close matches. A big problem (excluding other problems) is that it did whatever it took to even the team MMRs, including adding players who didn’t belong there, to handicap, or boost the team MMR. This was disruptive.

What I propose is a combination of S1 and S2 matchmaking, where matchmaking still determines your matchups based on pip range, like it does now, to stay in line of ‘perserving prestige’ in divisions.

The main difference would be instead of finding two very different groups of 5 alike MMR people, and having a potentially imbalanced match, try to find the 10 most similarly rated players in MMR within the pip range, rank them #1-10 based on MMR, and have even vs. odds. With an expanding PIP range, and variation in MMRs accepted as the queue goes on.

In a 5v5 with the 10 most similarly rated players, there won’t be as big a need to promote certain players over others, as it’ll be much harder for you to become underrated in MMR by the system.

I could even TLDR; and say bring back the matchmaker from the era of old Leaderboards & Solo queue days. At both extremes of skill, the best players had 70% winrate, and the worst players had about a 45% winrate. Right now I’d ballpark the two extremes at a respective 85% and 20% winrate.

With the league infrastructure we have now, and a few more tweaks, we can have a pretty awesome casual PvP league. The problem was that after we invented the wheel, we invented and used a square wheel with points/grind based leaderboards, and then a triangular wheel – In S1, getting high divisions without fighting tough enemies – and now we’re using a rectangular wheel in S2 – grouped up based on MMR and face different MMR groups!

I’m a bit weary of all the crazy matchmaker/ladder fads we’ve tested. I’m happy we added the league system which was a huge step forward, but we just need to get a normal and ordinary matchmaker to complement it like we had before.

Chaith.8256:

The main difference would be instead of finding two very different groups of 5 very alike MMR people, and having a potentially imbalanced match, try to find the 10 most similarly rated players in MMR within the pip range, rank them #1-10 based on MMR, and have even vs. odds. With an expanding PIP range, and variation in MMRs accepted as the queue goes on.

In a 5v5 with the 10 most similarly rated players, there won’t be as big a need to promote certain players over others, as it’ll be much harder for you to become underrated in MMR by the system.
…snip
In S1, getting high divisions without fighting tough enemies …snip

How will your proposed system prevent people getting high divisions without fighting tough enemies, i.e., a repeat of season 1? On first glance, it seems that if people are matched on opposing teams based on similar MMR as you’ve described, low MMR players can grind their way to the top fighting only low MMR players, just like S1.

Salamander.2504:

Chaith.8256:

The main difference would be instead of finding two very different groups of 5 very alike MMR people, and having a potentially imbalanced match, try to find the 10 most similarly rated players in MMR within the pip range, rank them #1-10 based on MMR, and have even vs. odds. With an expanding PIP range, and variation in MMRs accepted as the queue goes on.

In a 5v5 with the 10 most similarly rated players, there won’t be as big a need to promote certain players over others, as it’ll be much harder for you to become underrated in MMR by the system.
…snip
In S1, getting high divisions without fighting tough enemies …snip

How will your proposed system prevent people getting high divisions without fighting tough enemies, i.e., a repeat of season 1? On first glance, it seems that if people are matched on opposing teams based on similar MMR as you’ve described, low MMR players can grind their way to the top fighting only low MMR players, just like S1.

It’s based on highest party member pip range, can’t queue with low division people and gain Diamond Pips for beating Sapphires.

I’ve been trying to say this for weeks. Leagues are not skill based.

Yes, OP, I support soloq comeback. It was a HUGE mistake when they took it away. Now we reap the results.

Once again, the INDIVIDUAL is blamed for problems with the SYSTEM. It’s a bait-and-switch.

Chaith.8256:

Salamander.2504:

Chaith.8256:

The main difference would be instead of finding two very different groups of 5 very alike MMR people, and having a potentially imbalanced match, try to find the 10 most similarly rated players in MMR within the pip range, rank them #1-10 based on MMR, and have even vs. odds. With an expanding PIP range, and variation in MMRs accepted as the queue goes on.

In a 5v5 with the 10 most similarly rated players, there won’t be as big a need to promote certain players over others, as it’ll be much harder for you to become underrated in MMR by the system.
…snip
In S1, getting high divisions without fighting tough enemies …snip

How will your proposed system prevent people getting high divisions without fighting tough enemies, i.e., a repeat of season 1? On first glance, it seems that if people are matched on opposing teams based on similar MMR as you’ve described, low MMR players can grind their way to the top fighting only low MMR players, just like S1.

It’s based on highest party member pip range, can’t queue with low division people and gain Diamond Pips for beating Sapphires.

Right, but if low MMR players are only fighting low MMR players, they can just solo que to legend and never have to fight someone with high MMR. I.e., they can reach the same division as someone much better than they are. For example, if they grind through with even w/l, they should simply maintain their MMR. Even if they winstreak through, wins shouldn’t raise their MMR quickly enough because they are fighting low MMR players. In theory, they could go through the leagues without ever being matched against someone with exceptionally high MMR, despite being in the same pip-range.

Salamander.2504:

Chaith.8256:

Salamander.2504:

Chaith.8256:

The main difference would be instead of finding two very different groups of 5 very alike MMR people, and having a potentially imbalanced match, try to find the 10 most similarly rated players in MMR within the pip range, rank them #1-10 based on MMR, and have even vs. odds. With an expanding PIP range, and variation in MMRs accepted as the queue goes on.

In a 5v5 with the 10 most similarly rated players, there won’t be as big a need to promote certain players over others, as it’ll be much harder for you to become underrated in MMR by the system.
…snip
In S1, getting high divisions without fighting tough enemies …snip

How will your proposed system prevent people getting high divisions without fighting tough enemies, i.e., a repeat of season 1? On first glance, it seems that if people are matched on opposing teams based on similar MMR as you’ve described, low MMR players can grind their way to the top fighting only low MMR players, just like S1.

It’s based on highest party member pip range, can’t queue with low division people and gain Diamond Pips for beating Sapphires.

Right, but if low MMR players are only fighting low MMR players, they can just solo que to legend and never have to fight someone with high MMR. I.e., they can reach the same division as someone much better than they are. For example, if they grind through with even w/l, they should simply maintain their MMR. Even if they winstreak through, wins shouldn’t raise their MMR quickly enough because they are fighting low MMR players. In theory, they could go through the leagues without ever being matched against someone with exceptionally high MMR, despite being in the same league.

Take into account that win rates are going to be stabilized, and win/loss streak pips will be less prevalent. How does one grind through divisions with even w/l? And in glicko, my understanding is that your rating will get boosted fast when you’re winning vs. equally skilled people where skill should matter. Glicko moves you around fast in even matches, and slowly in uneven matches. So I can’t really see how you can winstreak through and not get your MMR boosted to match your pip range.

Obviously my ideas are rough, but it should be where pip level and MMR gain are as closely tied in as possible.

1. There are too many save points in emerald/sapphire. This means basically everyone can reach Ruby and higher division with no troubles.
2. A single bad player can be carried by premade. This false the competition for players who only go solo.
3. Your performance really depends on your team strength. If you have only people who explode in few secs with bad team composition there is no much you can do to save the game. Many games are decided from beginning by RNG Matchmaker.

These are the 3 main issues for this Season.