Guild Wars 2

When ArenaNet originally talked about leagues they said “Leagues will make PvP more accessibly to everyone inviting more casual players”. If this truly was their intent they grossly missed the mark by doing the exact opposite. Leagues are anti-casual and pro-hard core, here’s why

• The new symbol of prestige in sPvP is the league division icon beside your name (amber, emerald, etc..). Let’s not kid ourselves, that’s why this symbol is there cluttering Heart of the Mist; so everyone will know your league division and covet the high division players.

• To get into a higher division (earn prestige) you must compete in ranked matches

• Without a proper solo queue, solo players attempting rank just serve to feed the premades wins. Without separation, ranked matches are all about premades

• But solo players are queuing up ranked to try and earn mats, etc.. for the legendary back piece. This is creating a nice harvest of pug groups that really only serve to feed the premades free wins and the every great once in a while pug vs pug match that gives the casual solo queue player a fair fight.

• In the coming weeks when you enter Heart of the Mist all you will see are league division icons allowing other players to judge you and classify you as a player (which make no mistake will happen) when in reality the division icon only represents your effectiveness on a premade team and not your individual skill as a player. It is a system truly designed to make the non-premade casual player feel worthless though the chosen UI aesthetics. It’s designed to make other players judge those not in premades very harshly. It offers nothing for the casual player.

The prestige symbols in league play are all about the premades.

It is a system that deserves no respect. I’d like to respect it, but it just doesn’t make any sense if it truly was designed with the goal of “making sPvP more accessibly to the causal players” it servers the opposite purpose. I’ve had so many friends quit the game over HoT and a few others have no left over Leagues.

Look, this isn’t been written in anger. In my calmest, heart-to-heart voice I want to know, ArenaNet… What are you doing? This is really, really bad guys. It’s garbage. It really is. The players in pre-mades who are been fed pug groups and quickly moving up I’m sure will fire in with a rebuttal “Don’t listen to him, etc…” But seriously think about your objectives with Leagues and the causal players this was suppose to offer something to. Think about how absurd the solo vs premade queuing and the impact to both solo players and premade players. One group doesn’t stand much of a chance the other gets a free ranked win?

How is that good design? Can you justify it?!? Will you respond to this thread or any of these threads? Will you open a dialog with your PvP player base? It really seems you don’t care and that your stance is “It’s our dish to serve cold, eat it or go play something else” If that’s how you want to continue to roll with this then I guess I need to go find another game to play.

I hope you realize that everyone here pouring out messages in this forums are taking their time to tell you about problems they see. That’s time they could be spending on something else in life. These are not just Q.Q players, they are your players who care about your product. Do you even see it that way? Do you care? Where is the company that had integrity? Is the ArenaNet founded by three guys who left Blizzard to build a better game? Let me ask you something ANet. Have you played the latest offerings by Blizzard? Hearth Stone or Heros of the Storm? These PvP focused games have many of the elements we’re asking for. Why won’t you compete with other game studios and provide a product that’s on par? Do you thnk we want to leave GW2 to go play something else? We don’t. We just want you to fix a broken product.

SamTheGuardian.2938:

when in reality the division icon represents your effectiveness on a premade team

Currently, the league icon only shows how much you played.

As long as the pips gained is not effected by your mmr, it currently does not matter, if you won your matches facing high mmr premades or just killed some low mmr solo-queueers .

It is currently the same if a top tier ESL player wins 50% of his matches and slowly gains pips or a noname at the bottom of the mmr ladder.

(It also includes the option of abuse:

• Once you reach a new division, that you can’t loose: Just loose as many games as possible to put your MMR to the ground -> then farm lower-mmr players for a win streak and easy pips.
• Play with a premade at a low-population time, where no players with your mmr are online -> farm lower mmr players for easy pips. )

I don’t think ArenaNet employees are really allowed to answer here. At least, I don’t think they are allowed to speak their minds to criticize management decisions.

Teutos.8620:

SamTheGuardian.2938:

when in reality the division icon represents your effectiveness on a premade team

Currently, the league icon only shows how much you played.

That’s not true. It shows your division (Amber, Emerald, Ruby, Diamond, etc) which for the lower divisions represent how much you’ve played but for divisions where you can loose pips/tiers (any division above amber for pips) it shows where you stand in ranked play against other premades.

SamTheGuardian.2938:

Teutos.8620:

SamTheGuardian.2938:

when in reality the division icon represents your effectiveness on a premade team

Currently, the league icon only shows how much you played.

That’s not true. It shows your division (Amber, Emerald, Ruby, Diamond, etc) which for the lower divisions represent how much you’ve played but for divisions where you can loose pips/tiers (any division above amber for pips) it shows where you stand in ranked play against other premades.

Why would that bother an actual casual player?

Tamasan.6457:

SamTheGuardian.2938:

Teutos.8620:

SamTheGuardian.2938:

when in reality the division icon represents your effectiveness on a premade team

Currently, the league icon only shows how much you played.

That’s not true. It shows your division (Amber, Emerald, Ruby, Diamond, etc) which for the lower divisions represent how much you’ve played but for divisions where you can loose pips/tiers (any division above amber for pips) it shows where you stand in ranked play against other premades.

Why would that bother an actual casual player?

Because no-one wants a system that isolates them and makes them feel inferior. If causals could gain rank through solo play in solo queue and cap out in Ruby division or something then it would work, but that’s not going to happen due to the lack of a solo queue.

casual players will graduate from amber division eventually.
they just need to get 15 wins.

as for emerald and sapphire, if they manage to get 5 wins in a row, they can climb a tier.

after 5 tiers in emerald and 5 tiers in sapphire, they will eventually graduate into ruby division. where it kinda gets hard, as they need to win 30 games in a row to graduate from ruby into diamond.

and as mentioned by Teutos.8620, upon reaching ruby division, start losing matches as a 5 man team until MMR hits rock bottom. then farm those 30 wins in a row at odd hours where pro esl teams do not play. add all those pro esl players to your friends list, then only queue if they are not afk-ing in pvp lobby.

then do the same when reaching diamond division.

Soooooo what you’re saying is…. the divisions are…… divisive?

runs away

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

casual players will graduate from amber division eventually.
they just need to get 15 wins.

as for emerald and sapphire, if they manage to get 5 wins in a row, they can climb a tier.

after 5 tiers in emerald and 5 tiers in sapphire, they will eventually graduate into ruby division. where it kinda gets hard, as they need to win 30 games in a row to graduate from ruby into diamond.

and as mentioned by Teutos.8620, upon reaching ruby division, start losing matches as a 5 man team until MMR hits rock bottom. then farm those 30 wins in a row at odd hours where pro esl teams do not play. add all those pro esl players to your friends list, then only queue if they are not afk-ing in pvp lobby.

then do the same when reaching diamond division.

Let’s work on some definitions for context. I am defining causal player as one who likes to come in a solo queue, non-casual as someone who puts together a premade and works on team strategy etc… Those with a different definition of causal vs non-casual aren’t going to be on the same page with me, so they can stop reading.

Given solo queue player = casual, a solo queue would allow pugs to compete with pugs. They should be able to see how far they can get in league divisions exclusively going against pugs and furthermore, better match making algorithms should be utilized to compose the pug groups. I think the solo queuers should have separate pips/rank and they should be able to go all the way up to Diamond division though solo queue (but not Legendary). As for the icon beside your name that appear sin Heart of the Mist, it should be the highest division you have achieved (either solo or though premade queue, and yes the two should be recorded separate). This would make it casual friendly. As it stands now, it’s all about the premade rank.

It’s really not that hard to implement and it would make the game phenomenally better overall for everyone.

If you feel inferior because you don’t actually try to do well in Ranked (which means gasp queing up with groups) that’s on you not the game. Unranked exists for a reason. There is no shame in playing Unranked and while being in a high division will open doors for you I doubt casual players are interested in those doors.

I honestly don’t know what anyone expected Leagues to be just as I don’t know what people expected HoT to be… none of this is a surprise. The League system brings GW2 PvP more into line with traditional MMO PvP… I haven’t played any of those Esports titles you mentioned from Blizzard but they aren’t MMOs and PvP is naturally structured differently in those types of games.

sam,

you forgot about casual players who just simply parties together, not using voice communication, but simple in game text before the match begins, in game call targeting, some simple text, 2 home, 3 mid etc.

casual players can still group up together ya know.

Schurge.5194:

If you feel inferior because you don’t actually try to do well in Ranked (which means gasp queing up with groups) that’s on you not the game. Unranked exists for a reason. There is no shame in playing Unranked and while being in a high division will open doors for you I doubt casual players are interested in those doors.

I honestly don’t know what anyone expected Leagues to be just as I don’t know what people expected HoT to be… none of this is a surprise. The League system brings GW2 PvP more into line with traditional MMO PvP… I haven’t played any of those Esports titles you mentioned from Blizzard but they aren’t MMOs and PvP is naturally structured differently in those types of games.

Well sPvP in GW2 is completely separate from he MMO side of the game. There is no gear progression in PvE related to sPvP. The maps are entirely different. The objectives are entirely different and progression is entirely different. So in calling out GW2 sPvP as different than say Heros of the Storm because GW2 PvP happens to be attached to an MMO is not on point. Although it comes bundled with an MMO, it is an entirely separate aspect of the game that has nothing to do with the MMO side.

Putting that aside.

The bottom line is ArenaNet stated one the major reasons for League divisions was to make the PvP side of the game more causal friendly and they do absolutely nothing to accomplish that. That is the entire point of this post. If you want to take the stance that unranked is for causal players, that’s fine. But the point is they said Leagues would be something to provide incentive to more causal types and it does the exact opposite.

There is a psychological aspect to entering the Heart of the Mist and seeing the icons near characters heads showing the achieved rank. It’s all planned out and designed to make casual types play more and feel inferior if they do not. If you doubt this type of effort goes into these designs then you are ignorant of modern game development (keep in mind game studios hire sociologist, economist, etc… to entire players to spend as much time in game as possible and to spend as much possible int he cash shop. ArenaNet has said in interview they have an economist on staff). The reality is you go into a retail store you are being manipulated, tracked, etc… to help that company maximize profits. MMO games are the same way. I don’t have a problem with that in general. However, when you juxtapose this information with the “more casual friendly” comments and see that their real aim is to make it so causal players are made to feel inferior so they will play more and (likely) pay more in cash shop it all seems very disingenuous.

Regardless if you agree or disagree with the result, the reality, the fact is that today Post league patch the game is much less inviting and more intimidating to PvP newcomers. Not the other way around.

Teutos.8620:

SamTheGuardian.2938:

when in reality the division icon represents your effectiveness on a premade team

Currently, the league icon only shows how much you played.

As long as the pips gained is not effected by your mmr, it currently does not matter, if you won your matches facing high mmr premades or just killed some low mmr solo-queueers .

It is currently the same if a top tier ESL player wins 50% of his matches and slowly gains pips or a noname at the bottom of the mmr ladder.

(It also includes the option of abuse:

• Once you reach a new division, that you can’t loose: Just loose as many games as possible to put your MMR to the ground -> then farm lower-mmr players for a win streak and easy pips.
• Play with a premade at a low-population time, where no players with your mmr are online -> farm lower mmr players for easy pips. )

But sandbaggers can’t get into the prestige leagues…surely?

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

sam,

you forgot about casual players who just simply parties together, not using voice communication, but simple in game text before the match begins, in game call targeting, some simple text, 2 home, 3 mid etc.

casual players can still group up together ya know.

The way I think this should be handled is an option for non pre-mades to enter premade queue. Let’s envision a GW2 where solo and premade queues do exist. If you only have two and you want to be in party together when queuing, then you would be required to enter premade queue and not the solo queue but also the matchmaking should be so that you are paired with a premade. Keep in mind a premade must be 3 or more. So you would enter a match with you and your buddy paired with three others who are a premade. That’s not such a bad deal. When you score pips with you and your buddy queuing together like this they would be premade pips and you would get rank towards premade. When he’s not around you can queue up solo and take comfort in knowing that you’ll always be paired with 100% pug groups on each side.

When you see post asking for separation of premade and solo queueing, this is what they are asking for. I’ve just detailed how I envision it could be made to apply to ranked play.

Sam you might have misinterpreted the phrasing there.

Making Leagues more accessible in a sense is making them casual-friendly, but we should have all known them to be a competitive environment even at Amber. It’s no different than any other game taken to a tournament level of competition, everyone plays to win even if the way to enter is set on the easiest of terms.

PvP Leagues were never meant to be defined in the same manner as hotjoins or even unranked.

…As for the whole premade vs solo gambit, I could agree, but just as you said if Premades are essentially going to be the players who formed teams, that implies that players in say Division 4 or 5 are either up and coming new SPvP teams, or competent Solo Queues those at Legendary Rank would want to bring on.

I can forsee the PvP environment making more informed decisions about what a players division or even tier mean at a certain level, and yes there will be a massive stigma against Amber players a month down the road when many players have moved on to Emerald at the very least.

Right now though? I have other SPvP concerns, such as the MMR vs. League issues. Those are probably a better priority than judging the system pre-emptively.

SamTheGuardian.2938:

In my calmest, heart-to-heart voice I want to know… How is that good design? Can you justify it?!?

I, personally, absolutely love the League system and don’t think it’s anti-casual at all. Prestige is hugely important to promoting pvp and esports in general, and it makes pvp a lot more rewarding to me. I would be very upset if the League system was revised to take away that prestige.

So instead of complaining, just keep playing. You can get far even if you lose frequently; if you lose frequently, your MMR will go down, and if your MMR goes down, you will be paired in fairer matches.

Elyndis.2130:

SamTheGuardian.2938:

In my calmest, heart-to-heart voice I want to know… How is that good design? Can you justify it?!?

I, personally, absolutely love the League system and don’t think it’s anti-casual at all. Prestige is hugely important to promoting pvp and esports in general, and it makes pvp a lot more rewarding to me. I would be very upset if the League system was revised to take away that prestige.

So instead of complaining, just keep playing. You can get far even if you lose frequently; if you lose frequently, your MMR will go down, and if your MMR goes down, you will be paired in fairer matches.

But the league system doesn’t offer presitige, it just benefits tenacious players. As the system stands, people who use premades to farm randoms will rise up in the league. Simple as that. No solo player, no matter how good (not even Helseth and Phantaram and people like that) will rise to the top. It’s gonna be teams only.

Which is JUST ANOTHER REASON WHY WE NEED SOLOQ.

Agreed with OP.

Emerald is the only possible one to get into with a premade. When losses start to take away pips you cant progress.

MMR must be in effect because I am still close to 50/50 on W/L just more stressed and angry. I also am starting to dislike the playerbase even more. However, kitten posting in map chat and driving jokes into the ground is more fun then usual.

@SamTheGuardian

Leagues are more casual friendly though for those interested in Ranked play. I run CASUAL pre-mades almost exclusively and up until now we never did Ranked because frankly our rotations are often kitten. Leagues separate Ranked into several tiers of players so my bring what you want 3-5man can square off against other casual teams (which is what my experience with Leagues has been thus far… I’ve yet to go against a group with more then two pug players). The nature of how I play will keep me in Emerald and Sapphire and the nature of how more hardcore teams play will keep them in Ruby and Diamond.

However, those dissatisfied with Leagues are mainly upset that they can’t yolo-solo their way to victory hence I say go play Unranked.

As for the psychological effect of those prestige nameplates I can only speak for myself. I really don’t care about them, I am not embarrassed about currently being in Amber tier I felt no urge upon first logging in and seeing all the fancy new nameplates to get one of my own.

Schurge.5194:

@SamTheGuardian

Leagues are more casual friendly though for those interested in Ranked play. I run CASUAL pre-mades almost exclusively and up until now we never did Ranked because frankly our rotations are often kitten. Leagues separate Ranked into several tiers of players so my bring what you want 3-5man can square off against other casual teams (which is what my experience with Leagues has been thus far… I’ve yet to go against a group with more then two pug players). The nature of how I play will keep me in Emerald and Sapphire and the nature of how more hardcore teams play will keep them in Ruby and Diamond.

But matchmaking is based on MMR not the division.

I would gladly stay in unranked. However… Anet made a whole bunch of achievements and shiny rewards in ranked… And now I just stare at my progress bar stuck at tier Zero for a entire day of pvp…

I have not had a problem with solo vs premade. I had a match against 4man once. (We win) The rest are solo/duo.

SamTheGuardian.2938:

but for divisions where you can loose pips/tiers (any division above amber for pips) it shows where you stand in ranked play against other premades.

No. That is your subjective problem because of your high MMR. It does not have anything to do with the league system.

You will always face players with about your own MMR, it does not matter in which division they are playing.

The basic problem is, that you are facing opponents based on your MMR Without an effecting your pips..

• That means, that it does not matter if you are currently playing for an amber pip or a diamond pip. Opponents are still based on your mmr.
• It does not matter if a high mmr ruby player is fighting vs other high mmr players OR a low mmr ruby player is fighting vs another low mmr player → they are BOTH fighting for a ruby pip.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

if they manage to get 5 wins in a row, […] then farm those 30 wins in a row

You don’t need wins in a row. You just need to win a little bit more wins than you looses.
If you won 11 games and lost 10 games, you will still end up with +1 pip. It does not matter in which order you had those games. You can play as many games as you want, as long as you win just a bit more games than you loose.

In Amber your win rate does not matter and in Emerald and Sapphire you can climb up the ladder with lucky streaks.
In Ruby you still only need a win rate over 50% to climb up the ladder.
Problem: How do you achieve a win rate over 50%? You are improving and showing the MMR system, that the rating they attributed to you was too low. (Keep in mind, that the MMR-system will find new challenges for you everytime you improve.)

Teutos.8620:

SamTheGuardian.2938:

but for divisions where you can loose pips/tiers (any division above amber for pips) it shows where you stand in ranked play against other premades.

No. That is your subjective problem because of your high MMR. It does not have anything to do with the league system.

You will always face players with about your own MMR, it does not matter in which division they are playing.

The basic problem is, that you are facing opponents based on your MMR Without an effecting your pips..

• That means, that it does not matter if you are currently playing for an amber pip or a diamond pip. Opponents are still based on your mmr.
• It does not matter if a high mmr ruby player is fighting vs other high mmr players OR a low mmr ruby player is fighting vs another low mmr player -> they are BOTH fighting for a ruby pip.

I knew there were MMR problems but didn’t realize matchmaking was prioritizing MMR over League Division… if that is true the system is truly fubar. What’s the point then? Other games seriously are looking very appealing. I don’t even know how to respond. Did they not consider this?

The entire League system is an unfinished mess it seems. Shipped to meet a deadline obviously and not quite ready from prime time. Remind me again why we’re all still playing and supporting this? Strongly thinking of a taking a hiatus from the game and coming in next pvp season.

Give it some months. They have rushed this and it can only get better. As ANET have one of the best mmr matchups. (Even tho some complains about solo/duo que) i think it will get better in next league. Take this as a tryout it’s not like you rush something are u?

finals have me only able to play like one match a day(

Klangy.8293:

Give it some months. They have rushed this and it can only get better. As ANET have one of the best mmr matchups. (Even tho some complains about solo/duo que) i think it will get better in next league. Take this as a tryout it’s not like you rush something are u?

You don’t “some months” the season ends end of January. Then you have to start all over again.

Sam, if you wanna soloQ, either go unranked or don’t worry about your ranked league. Here is the scenario you are outlining:

1) “Solo Que Hero Mr. Yolo” is getting utterly stomped by premade “Team Dolyak Brigade”: they have teamwork and voice-comms, how can Mr. Yolo ever compete?
2) Mr. Yolo enters into a solo que, which puts him in a different pool than the premade “Team Dolyak Brigade”.
3) Both Mr. Yolo and Team Dolyak Brigade rise through their pools and ultimately reach the same league.

What is wrong with this picture? Team Dolyak Brigade is better than Mr. Yolo due to their teamwork, and eventually drove Mr. Yolo into a different pool of players because Mr. Yolo wasn’t good enough. Ultimately, it doesn’t make sense that Mr. Yolo should be in the same league as Team Dolyak Brigade, as this implies similar skill-level. I recommend that Mr. Yolo either: (1) Stay casual and not get hurt feelings over his league division because YOLO (after all, the players have been asking for a visual “MMR” for years); (2) Stay casual and play in unranked; or (3) Join a team to test his mettle against the Dolyak Brigade.

And +1 to the quotes here:

Schurge.5194:

If you feel inferior because you don’t actually try to do well in Ranked (which means gasp queing up with groups) that’s on you not the game. Unranked exists for a reason. There is no shame in playing Unranked and while being in a high division will open doors for you I doubt casual players are interested in those doors.

I honestly don’t know what anyone expected Leagues to be just as I don’t know what people expected HoT to be… none of this is a surprise. The League system brings GW2 PvP more into line with traditional MMO PvP… I haven’t played any of those Esports titles you mentioned from Blizzard but they aren’t MMOs and PvP is naturally structured differently in those types of games.

Schurge.5194:

@SamTheGuardian

Leagues are more casual friendly though for those interested in Ranked play. I run CASUAL pre-mades almost exclusively and up until now we never did Ranked because frankly our rotations are often kitten. Leagues separate Ranked into several tiers of players so my bring what you want 3-5man can square off against other casual teams (which is what my experience with Leagues has been thus far… I’ve yet to go against a group with more then two pug players). The nature of how I play will keep me in Emerald and Sapphire and the nature of how more hardcore teams play will keep them in Ruby and Diamond.

However, those dissatisfied with Leagues are mainly upset that they can’t yolo-solo their way to victory hence I say go play Unranked.

As for the psychological effect of those prestige nameplates I can only speak for myself. I really don’t care about them, I am not embarrassed about currently being in Amber tier I felt no urge upon first logging in and seeing all the fancy new nameplates to get one of my own.