Guild Wars 2

Evan Lesh.3295:

Rylen.2147:

Evan Lesh.3295

What would make legendary players happy to keep playing the game? Is it just quicker queue times? What if you could do other things while waiting? What if there was something other than leagues all together like unranked arena that legendary players could go to until more players make it to legendary?

I honestly just wish we would get more rewards from legendary. Adding more rewards would make players still want to gain pips even though they are at the highest they can go league wise. I know I would play more than a few games a day if it meant greater rewards

Adding more rewards is easy, but getting them will still be difficult with hour-long queue times.

Reward wise, what I absolutely loved at gw2 launch was that you would get PvP exclusive skins, usually depending on what rank you were. These had sets (like the Priory key skins) that was cool to collect. In addition, we had Ranks and titles that also showed how long you played for.

Present day, a lot of us already have the titles and hit Dragon ages ago. I have an inventory full of chests that I got tired of opening and started deleting boxes because that’s easier than opening boxes per match, every time. Chests are becoming an absolute nuisance for me.

tl;dr
It would be nice to have a Prestige mode for our Dragon rank that reverts us back to Rank 1 but with a unique medal displaying our prestige level. As a bonus, add our Rank games played so players who already played 4k games and gained X amount of experience automatically jump to a higher prestige.. if the coding is possible

Malediktus.9250:

Evan Lesh.3295:

morrolan.9608:

Evan Lesh.3295:

What would make legendary players happy to keep playing the game? Is it just quicker queue times? What if you could do other things while waiting? What if there was something other than leagues all together like unranked arena that legendary players could go to until more players make it to legendary?

How about asking the question what would make all the ranked players happy to keep playing the game, cause right now I am disheartened and completely de-motivated by the system. Its making me hate spvp.

Why are you disheartened? Is it the inconsistency of match quality?

Yes, most matches are blowouts even in diamond division. I rarely get close matches.

^ this is me basically. 90% of the matches are decided after the first fight not because we give up but because it’s obvious which side has more better players.

I even lost a game 500-10 last night because team PZ’s Java was on an alt account which is kinda dumb and made it unfun for me.

If you check my matches from 2-3 days ago, you will see a lot of sub 100 point (my team) or sub 200 point (enemy team) to 500. It was unfun, and I probably stop playing PvP now since I got my legendary backpiece.

Malediktus.9250:

Evan Lesh.3295:

morrolan.9608:

Evan Lesh.3295:

What would make legendary players happy to keep playing the game? Is it just quicker queue times? What if you could do other things while waiting? What if there was something other than leagues all together like unranked arena that legendary players could go to until more players make it to legendary?

How about asking the question what would make all the ranked players happy to keep playing the game, cause right now I am disheartened and completely de-motivated by the system. Its making me hate spvp.

Why are you disheartened? Is it the inconsistency of match quality?

Yes, most matches are blowouts even in diamond division. I rarely get close matches.

I don’t understand this desire for close matches in a ladder. It’s competitive by design. This is not unranked where they use MMR for closer matches.

morrolan.9608:

Evan Lesh.3295:

morrolan.9608:

Evan Lesh.3295:

What would make legendary players happy to keep playing the game? Is it just quicker queue times? What if you could do other things while waiting? What if there was something other than leagues all together like unranked arena that legendary players could go to until more players make it to legendary?

How about asking the question what would make all the ranked players happy to keep playing the game, cause right now I am disheartened and completely de-motivated by the system. Its making me hate spvp.

Why are you disheartened? Is it the inconsistency of match quality?

Pretty much. I have been in Tier 5 of emerald for almost 2 weeks now, although I haven’t played since Sunday (when I had 9 losses in a row) cause it was affecting me so badly I had to take a break. Its basically I keep getting 1-2 wins then have a succession of losses. After 1-2 wins I seem to: get placed with players who were in the teams I beat; players who are simply not very good; or get matched against teams who clearly have a significantly better mmr to the team I get matched with. This has happened consistently. I have tried grouping with others, I have tried playing stronghold rather than conquest, nothing has worked to get me to the next tier. Its grindy and the constant backsliding across a relatively long period is disheartening.

Maybe you could accept that you hit a wall because you’re not good enough yet. Instead of focusing on your team’s skill, you should focus on your own gameplay and try to improve as you can always improve even if you’re the best GW2 player. You will also have more fun this way, because at least you won’t be focusing on negative thoughts.

When the score is 490 to 490 everyone is putting in their best effort to win. It’s competitive. When it’s 490 to 10 half the team has already given up.

It’s because certain classes are stronger. They seem to get matched up together even in solo teams. Fix profession imbalance and it won’t happen so much.

Sinid.7460:

morrolan.9608:

Evan Lesh.3295:

morrolan.9608:

Evan Lesh.3295:

What would make legendary players happy to keep playing the game? Is it just quicker queue times? What if you could do other things while waiting? What if there was something other than leagues all together like unranked arena that legendary players could go to until more players make it to legendary?

How about asking the question what would make all the ranked players happy to keep playing the game, cause right now I am disheartened and completely de-motivated by the system. Its making me hate spvp.

Why are you disheartened? Is it the inconsistency of match quality?

Pretty much. I have been in Tier 5 of emerald for almost 2 weeks now, although I haven’t played since Sunday (when I had 9 losses in a row) cause it was affecting me so badly I had to take a break. Its basically I keep getting 1-2 wins then have a succession of losses. After 1-2 wins I seem to: get placed with players who were in the teams I beat; players who are simply not very good; or get matched against teams who clearly have a significantly better mmr to the team I get matched with. This has happened consistently. I have tried grouping with others, I have tried playing stronghold rather than conquest, nothing has worked to get me to the next tier. Its grindy and the constant backsliding across a relatively long period is disheartening.

Maybe you could accept that you hit a wall because you’re not good enough yet. Instead of focusing on your team’s skill, you should focus on your own gameplay and try to improve as you can always improve even if you’re the best GW2 player. You will also have more fun this way, because at least you won’t be focusing on negative thoughts.

I made ruby last season and probably could have gone diamond if I pushed it. I recognise that I am an average player, but I am also clearly able to recognise that I keep getting matched with players who are not on the same skill level. I know how to rotate, I know how to play the secondary objectives, I use builds similar to the meta builds etc. In this final tier of emerald I keep getting matched with players who clearly know none of that, players who on nifhel for example all go straight to the beast. So no what you state is not correct. Whats disheartening is that as I said this happens without fail as soon as I get 1 or 2 wins. The volatility is just ridiculous and it makes me wonder if there are bugs in the matchmaking.

Evan Lesh.3295:

In season 1 every match was trying to be even, but this allowed players to grind through the ladder. Season 2 is the opposite of this, but players are clearly experiencing matches that are too volatile. Once players reach a division relative to their skill, the only blowout matches that should be happening would be from people coming late to the season. I feel there may be balance between the two styles of matchmaking that maintain prestige, but avoid an abundance of blowouts.

I just had a 500-5 game in diamond. You might say I’m just a really bad player but still this stuff shouldn’t be happening.

Waste of everybody’s time and unfun.

Heck I scored that 5 point cuz I killed someone.

Evan Lesh.3295:

In season 1 every match was trying to be even, but this allowed players to grind through the ladder. Season 2 is the opposite of this, but players are clearly experiencing matches that are too volatile. Once players reach a division relative to their skill, the only blowout matches that should be happening would be from people coming late to the season. I feel there may be balance between the two styles of matchmaking that maintain prestige, but avoid an abundance of blowouts.

This will never happen because you don’t allow players to drop Amber through Sapphire. Even if Ruby is actually “where you belong”, there will be a ton of players there that did it simply by volume.

Matches are generally fine from mid-ruby on. The new matchmaking is great. But anything below that will be a crapshoot because the players can vary from people who actually belong to Amber players with 300 games.

@ Evan Lesh

You are confusing elite with prestigious. The elite in this case being formed by pre made team groupies who are willing to stack specific classes and builds.

The majority of matches favor one side and most of those who have risen to high rank have done so by being on a team rather than by individual skill. This doesn’t result in prestige, it results in a caste of haves and a caste of have-nots.

If it is your intention to test skills; The best method would be to require everyone to solo queue and implement anti sync coding.

In reality, showing diamond or legendary through dogged grinding is as worthy as getting those accolades through teaming and an easy win streak ride.

The lack of prestige in the Diamond/Legendary titles is caused by the culture of exploitation. Many pvp regulars realize that those titles were gotten through smurfing in S1 and through prof stacking and pre-mades in s2. Why should I admire that? That’s why those titles are not prestigious.

Ithilwen.1529:

@ Evan Lesh

You are confusing elite with prestigious. The elite in this case being formed by pre made team groupies who are willing to stack specific classes and builds.

The majority of matches favor one side and most of those who have risen to high rank have done so by being on a team rather than by individual skill. This doesn’t result in prestige, it results in a caste of haves and a caste of have-nots.

Everything you wrote is demonstrably false.

There are plenty of players who reached legendary via solo-queue. Heck, some guy posted a thread where he solo-queued to legendary running core necro (NOT REAPER) on a brand new free-to-play account (so no MMR advantage). Some other dude posted a thread with screenshots of each of his solo-queue matches to legendary.

How did they accomplish that? By being more skilled than you. Don’t pretend otherwise.

Also, in my experience getting to legendary, I think I had under 20 games against 4 or 5-man teams, and I won almost every one of them. Forming a “pre-made” is no guarantee of success.

Ithilwen.1529:

@ Evan Lesh
If it is your intention to test skills; The best method would be to require everyone to solo queue and implement anti sync coding.

This would just result in longer-queue times with no real upside. You’d still be here complaining about how MMR has conspired to put you on the “losing team.”

The current matchmaking system tests skills. A better player provides more overall value to his team and, as a result, will win more often than lose.

Ithilwen.1529:

@ Evan Lesh
In reality, showing diamond or legendary through dogged grinding is as worthy as getting those accolades through teaming and an easy win streak ride.

Again, a false premise. Most legendaries didn’t get there through “teaming and an easy win streak ride.” They did it by being good at the game (or getting good at it) and providing more value to the players who ended up being on their team. Since you enjoy playing mesmer, you can check out Helseth’s twitch stream for tips.

Ithilwen.1529:

@ Evan Lesh
The lack of prestige in the Diamond/Legendary titles is caused by the culture of exploitation. Many pvp regulars realize that those titles were gotten through smurfing in S1 and through prof stacking and pre-mades in s2. Why should I admire that? That’s why those titles are not prestigious.

Again, there are plenty of people who made it to legendary without forming pre-mades (see above).

And if you improved enough to get out of emerald (or sapphire, or wherever you are), you’d realize that profession stacking is almost always a detriment to your team, not an exploit.

If you’re so thoroughly convinced that “pre-mades” are some sort of magical easy-win exploit to legendary, you could easily test this theory by teaming up with other players. There’s plenty of people on this forum who’ve also been complaining about their solo-queue experience, so you could hit them up for some pre-made queues to see if your experience is any better. I’ll even let you use my TS server.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Ithilwen.1529:

@ Evan Lesh

You are confusing elite with prestigious. The elite in this case being formed by pre made team groupies who are willing to stack specific classes and builds.

You are correct. Though I am curious to know what is bad about pre-made teams that perform well reaching the top of the ladder. When I play with friends, we perform no better than solos :P

Of course you do, which is why it’s unfair to the rest of us who solo q.

This thread has gone so far off track with players using it as an excuse to get their own problems reiterated for the hundredth time.

/delete

You mean you are conceding defeat because you couldn’t comprehend what Evan said or couldn’t come up with a solution to getting around the barriers he presented to you to solving your problem.

Acting like it isn’t possible to solo que to legendary is probably not the best way to go.

During the first season I solo qued my way to legendary as a SHOUT RANGER. (Non druid) this is before shouts were reworked so half of them didn’t work properly. I used a marauder amulet and trooper runes.

In this season the vast majority of my games are solo que. I did them as a full zerk druid with trooper runes. Since reaching legendary I have since swapped to a paladin,marauder power RANGER build. I am still performing well in large part due to the fact that I actually deal enough damage to pressure people from ranged without relying entirely on pet burst combos. (Reapers,Scrappers are alot less deadly if you have room to disengage).

If I can solo que to legendary using what are largely considered bad builds. Then it should be possible for almost anyone to do something similar with a good build.

Edit @ Evan. Having something to do during que time would help alot. Even if its just to relieve stress. I can understand not allowing PvE. But enabling us to enter WvW would go a long way. And would also act as a stress reliever of sorts for frustrating matches.

Also one thing you might consider. When entering HoTM you are always sent to the entry gate. However with the opening of gliding in the map there are more places we can reach now. Would it be possible to turn off that transfer so that we can stay at our favorite locations between matches? There is a place with a great view I like to go to. But it takes a bit of time to get there and often doesn’t seem worth it when I am just going to get teleported back to the gate after my next match.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Matchmaking doesn’t count pips past the end of legendary, so prestige count won’t affect queue times.

What would make legendary players happy to keep playing the game? Is it just quicker queue times? What if you could do other things while waiting? What if there was something other than leagues all together like unranked arena that legendary players could go to until more players make it to legendary?

1st of, like I already said, I really like the current system. The quality of matches I was/am getting in diamond and now in legendary is awesome since I am queued with and against high skilled/top players, so I personally wouldn’t change a thing.

As for the queue times, there isn’t problem with queue times in prime time, at least on EU. Ppl should be just more reasonable and don’t expect short queue times in late night or morning. But to answer the question, it would really help if ppl could do something while waiting in queue. Waiting in queue for 10 mins having nothing to do is ok, but 40+mins is just waste of time. I would personally love to roam in WvW in the meantime for example. So yeah, let ppl do something while waiting in queue.

Legendary quality is decreasing daily. In about 7 days, you will probably get que pops in less than 5 minutes.

In Reply to Evan Lesh

A couple of the more obvious things that are bad about premades reaching the top of the ladder;

A pre-made is a substancial advantage over a PuG. This is in addition to the matchmaking probably setting the pre-made to win when forming the teams. A double advantage. I don’t see where pre – made teams really have much cause to take pride in winning a game they are pre-set to win.

Pre-mades do not test individual skills. There have been many complaints this season about poor quality gameplay in Diamond. This is because players are carried up by teams when they’d never get there on there own.

This carrying kittens the notion of players stopping at there natural level. It will prevent the matches from balancing out.

-edit-

More generally; I don’t think that the vast majority are really in PvP for ultra competition. Like myself, the motivation is mostly the rewards. Sure, I enjoy competing at a neighborhood softball game level. I have no interest in playing in the major leagues.

I think that the reality is that there aren’t enough players to support a pure competition ladder without heavy rewards to back it.

Teams are an element for Pro League. They are a detriment when the goal is to compete at a fun level.

Evan don’t you have league profession statistics? Something that shows if you are an ele you are more likely to be at the top of the league and if you are a warrior you are more likely to be at the bottom.

Only kitten would w8 1h to play 10 min match. Cant u see java playing on 10 different troll accounts beoucse he dont want to w8 in que?

Evan Lesh.3295:

Ithilwen.1529:

@ Evan Lesh

You are confusing elite with prestigious. The elite in this case being formed by pre made team groupies who are willing to stack specific classes and builds.

You are correct. Though I am curious to know what is bad about pre-made teams that perform well reaching the top of the ladder. When I play with friends, we perform no better than solos :P

Because premade teams performing well in a soloQ based environment is neither elite nor prestigious. There is not anything in this world that makes them look great or prestigious stomping on soloQ/duoQers. Would Argentina or Brasil look prestigious playing soccer against a group of random players from your neighborhood and stomp them hardcore ? Nope. This is why it never happens. A match that isnt played on fair ground cant look prestigious, which is why some “pros” look ridiculous being so high in ladders after 3/4/5 man-ing the ranked arena.

So here you have why it is bad, performing well in premade vs soloQ is great…for the premade but doesnt reflect anything else than (yup, we stomped people who are not on voice comm+ dont know each others as well as us and who might not have the same perfect tryhard class setup. Add to that the long queue times in legendary, you have a combo of why people get bored, leave after reaching legendary and make queue times even longer.

Premades should face premades. A trio should always face a trio, a 4man too, etc.

Evan Lesh.3295:

morrolan.9608:

Evan Lesh.3295:

What would make legendary players happy to keep playing the game? Is it just quicker queue times? What if you could do other things while waiting? What if there was something other than leagues all together like unranked arena that legendary players could go to until more players make it to legendary?

How about asking the question what would make all the ranked players happy to keep playing the game, cause right now I am disheartened and completely de-motivated by the system. Its making me hate spvp.

Why are you disheartened? Is it the inconsistency of match quality?

I think you know the answer to this, and the answer is yes. People are getting fed up of unbalanced team compositions, fed up of one team being put together that “should” beat the other with ease. We have all had these games where we have looked at the other team and thought easy win. and 99% of the time that’s just what it is. Having 2-3 great matches then just getting stomped is destroying the player base. it’s stopping people being able to move up. I don’t see how you can call fair system when you have matches you can walk, then other matches you might as well stay in base and wait for it to be over.

I’ve been banning my head against T5 sapphire for a week now, a whole week. I get 4 pips, but can never get the 5th, before the match making gives me teams that have no hope of winning till I’m at 0 pips again. This is really sapping the fun right out of the whole game for me. I’m wondering why I ever bothered playing PvP in the first place, wait that’s right, because it use to be fun.

Evan Lesh.3295:

In season 1 every match was trying to be even, but this allowed players to grind through the ladder. Season 2 is the opposite of this, but players are clearly experiencing matches that are too volatile. Once players reach a division relative to their skill, the only blowout matches that should be happening would be from people coming late to the season. I feel there may be balance between the two styles of matchmaking that maintain prestige, but avoid an abundance of blowouts.

Could you perhaps answer this one simple question – What was the PRIMARY aim of introducing the league format?

Was it to attract more players into PvP or was it to provide a way for elite players only to earn prestigious rewards and titles?

If it was the latter, then your S2 matchmaking is absolutely working as intended and should not be changed..

If it was the former though, then may I suggest that after the great job with season 1 where the matchmaking was fair and provided a fun experience for everyone, it can’t be much of a surprise that you are now seeing the numbers of players willing to participate this season, fall off a cliff.

If you want, PvP to forever be a little niche part of the game, then continue on the current course, but if (as I suspect) you want to try and build on the numbers achieved during season 1 and expand the player base, this horrible, unfair matchmaking system you have in place at the moment, that is frustrating and alienating players needs to be changed NOW.

Burtnik.5218:

2. A lot of players gave up due to constant losing which leads to huge q times. Who in right mind would bother to continue play if they lose match after match. Pvp in this game is dead as Anet killed it by their horrible and most kittened matchmaking in the history of gaming.

Pretty much this. I’m sick of the lopsided matches. Over 2000 ranked games, a 51% win average. I am the definition of an average player, but I’ve never had losing streaks like I’ve had this season. I wouldn’t mind if the games were close, but when you lose by 200- 300 points almost every game. That isn’t fun.

To top this off the dev is asking what legendary players want, not what the vast majority want. Right there that tells you what is wrong with pvp. Catering to a small percentage of the population will only create more unbalanced systems.

Here is where I want. I want a system that I can be confident that where I’m placed is where I belong. I’m ruby right now. I am there because I was willing to play a ton or because I’m actually that good? I also want a system that will allow me to improve my play so I can eventually get to a higher tier. Neither season has provided that atmosphere.

I’m willing to sacrifice queue times if matches are quality. I should be teamed against people with similar MMR and have people with similar MMR on my team. Pips are not a show of skill.

Evan Lesh.3295:

In season 1 every match was trying to be even, but this allowed players to grind through the ladder. Season 2 is the opposite of this, but players are clearly experiencing matches that are too volatile. Once players reach a division relative to their skill, the only blowout matches that should be happening would be from people coming late to the season. I feel there may be balance between the two styles of matchmaking that maintain prestige, but avoid an abundance of blowouts.

Problem is I don’t think people are always reaching the division that is their skill level. Since there is no firm definition of what skill level each division truly means this statement doesn’t really fit.

Here’s my opinion. You have people with well established MMRs that no number of games really move. I think I figured once that I need to win 3-5 games to move my win percentage up .01%. I’m going to assume the same is true for my MMR ranking or something similar. Now we also have newer players, a good thing, with more malleable MMR scores. A win streak or losing streak will affect their overall value much greater. So a newer player with less games does well they can then be given better players. At what point is that new player truly that good or just fortunate to have teammate that are just that good?

Best thing for the system to work is to reset everyone’s MMR. Don’t rely on pips and rely on MMR. Make each division equal to an MMR ranking. This will require a revamp of the reward system, but let’s be hones the legendary backpack is really just a reward track requires rank points AND particular actions.

Mysticjedi.6053:

Burtnik.5218:

2. A lot of players gave up due to constant losing which leads to huge q times. Who in right mind would bother to continue play if they lose match after match. Pvp in this game is dead as Anet killed it by their horrible and most kittened matchmaking in the history of gaming.

Pretty much this. I’m sick of the lopsided matches. Over 2000 ranked games, a 51% win average. I am the definition of an average player, but I’ve never had losing streaks like I’ve had this season. I wouldn’t mind if the games were close, but when you lose by 200- 300 points almost every game. That isn’t fun.

To top this off the dev is asking what legendary players want, not what the vast majority want. Right there that tells you what is wrong with pvp. Catering to a small percentage of the population will only create more unbalanced systems.

Here is where I want. I want a system that I can be confident that where I’m placed is where I belong. I’m ruby right now. I probably belong there, so check. I also want a system that will allow me to improve my play so I can eventually get to a higher tier. Neither season has provided that atmosphere.

I’m willing to sacrifice queue times if matches are quality. I should be teamed against people with similar MMR and have people with similar MMR on my team. Pips are not a show of skill.

Have you red the thread? Of course he’ll ask a question about legendary players in a thread made by legendary player for a problem affecting legendary players.

Evan Lesh.3295:

In season 1 every match was trying to be even, but this allowed players to grind through the ladder. Season 2 is the opposite of this, but players are clearly experiencing matches that are too volatile. Once players reach a division relative to their skill, the only blowout matches that should be happening would be from people coming late to the season. I feel there may be balance between the two styles of matchmaking that maintain prestige, but avoid an abundance of blowouts.

What you’re missing is that there’s no “division relative to my skill”. Each division has its share of bad players you can get grouped with. Or against.

And since there’s no incentive of playing well in a match that’s clearly lost from the start (most blowout matches can be recognized as such within the first minute or so) it aggravates the problem even more.

It was a mistake to remove the variable pip gain/loss system (because in season 1 most matches were close) at the same time you introduced the system that made most of the matches hugely unbalanced.

ResJudicator.7916:

Ithilwen.1529:

@ Evan Lesh

You are confusing elite with prestigious. The elite in this case being formed by pre made team groupies who are willing to stack specific classes and builds.

The majority of matches favor one side and most of those who have risen to high rank have done so by being on a team rather than by individual skill. This doesn’t result in prestige, it results in a caste of haves and a caste of have-nots.

Everything you wrote is demonstrably false.

There are plenty of players who reached legendary via solo-queue. Heck, some guy posted a thread where he solo-queued to legendary running core necro (NOT REAPER) on a brand new free-to-play account (so no MMR advantage). Some other dude posted a thread with screenshots of each of his solo-queue matches to legendary.

How did they accomplish that? By being more skilled than you. Don’t pretend otherwise.

Sorry… but a TOP player having a fresh new account will not have difficulties because the new player account is AVG MMR (or better).

If the MMR was fixed to 20% for new account, TOP players would find it more harder to SOLOQ in the last tier of the player base.

All this because they choose to put MMR for your team but not for the opponent

Either remove MMR or do MMR vs MMR. The actual system is a joke that let TOP player trying to let you think they are better than all because they win matches on second account, but it’s false since their many account are old and got MMR in the top 20%. (and if completely fresh 2016 account, they start at AVG MMR and have the skills to make it goes higher… starting in HELL (20% bottom) would be a different story.

This is bad because many TOP players are really the best of the WORLD but the League and is MAtch Making remove that value since the system give them EASY rides.

Sunshine.5014:

Malediktus.9250:

Evan Lesh.3295:

morrolan.9608:

Evan Lesh.3295:

What would make legendary players happy to keep playing the game? Is it just quicker queue times? What if you could do other things while waiting? What if there was something other than leagues all together like unranked arena that legendary players could go to until more players make it to legendary?

How about asking the question what would make all the ranked players happy to keep playing the game, cause right now I am disheartened and completely de-motivated by the system. Its making me hate spvp.

Why are you disheartened? Is it the inconsistency of match quality?

Yes, most matches are blowouts even in diamond division. I rarely get close matches.

I don’t understand this desire for close matches in a ladder. It’s competitive by design. This is not unranked where they use MMR for closer matches.

The whole competiveness is a dead end road. The average player plays for fun not competiveness, so if 90% of the matches are blowouts and boring they will abandon it.
And I cant blame people if they become toxic, troll or afk once they notice the match is lost with maybe 1 in 100 chance to recover. And why do I still get people in diamond who rush far all the time and die there without even decapping it. Or zerg off point and die like it is hotjoin.

Also loosing streaks where you loose 10+ pips in a row are not fun. I feel there needs to be a cap about how many pips you can loose by a loosing streak.

Chicho Gosho.6507:

Have you red the thread? Of course he’ll ask a question about legendary players in a thread made by legendary player for a problem affecting legendary players.

Maybe the pertinent issue here, which is only adding to the alienation felt by many players is: is how he managed not to see the the dozens and dozens of threads made by players who make up the majority of the player base and why he chose not to answer those questions put by players who make up the majority of the player base about S2 matchmaking – a problem which is affecting the majority of the players.

Malediktus.9250:

Evan Lesh.3295:

morrolan.9608:

Evan Lesh.3295:

What would make legendary players happy to keep playing the game? Is it just quicker queue times? What if you could do other things while waiting? What if there was something other than leagues all together like unranked arena that legendary players could go to until more players make it to legendary?

How about asking the question what would make all the ranked players happy to keep playing the game, cause right now I am disheartened and completely de-motivated by the system. Its making me hate spvp.

Why are you disheartened? Is it the inconsistency of match quality?

Yes, most matches are blowouts even in diamond division. I rarely get close matches.

Insert even in legendary, I have never thought in my life I d see a 500- 100/200 game in legendary.

Daroon.1736:

Evan Lesh.3295:

In season 1 every match was trying to be even, but this allowed players to grind through the ladder. Season 2 is the opposite of this, but players are clearly experiencing matches that are too volatile. Once players reach a division relative to their skill, the only blowout matches that should be happening would be from people coming late to the season. I feel there may be balance between the two styles of matchmaking that maintain prestige, but avoid an abundance of blowouts.

Could you perhaps answer this one simple question – What was the PRIMARY aim of introducing the league format?

Was it to attract more players into PvP or was it to provide a way for elite players only to earn prestigious rewards and titles?

If it was the latter, then your S2 matchmaking is absolutely working as intended and should not be changed..

If it was the former though, then may I suggest that after the great job with season 1 where the matchmaking was fair and provided a fun experience for everyone, it can’t be much of a surprise that you are now seeing the numbers of players willing to participate this season, fall off a cliff.

If you want, PvP to forever be a little niche part of the game, then continue on the current course, but if (as I suspect) you want to try and build on the numbers achieved during season 1 and expand the player base, this horrible, unfair matchmaking system you have in place at the moment, that is frustrating and alienating players needs to be changed NOW.

Well, that was a nice question indeed. But at this Pont Anet aims is not even a problem (since some PRO players arent enjoying S2) , it’s their MM algorithm that’s faulty. No company which is serious about their product matches X vs X.

Evan Lesh.3295:

In season 1 every match was trying to be even, but this allowed players to grind through the ladder. Season 2 is the opposite of this, but players are clearly experiencing matches that are too volatile. Once players reach a division relative to their skill, the only blowout matches that should be happening would be from people coming late to the season. I feel there may be balance between the two styles of matchmaking that maintain prestige, but avoid an abundance of blowouts.

The thing is, there is prestige level in legendary to define who is somewhat cooler. There is a leader boards do define who is cooler.

Evan Lesh.3295:

In season 1 every match was trying to be even, but this allowed players to grind through the ladder. Season 2 is the opposite of this, but players are clearly experiencing matches that are too volatile. Once players reach a division relative to their skill, the only blowout matches that should be happening would be from people coming late to the season. I feel there may be balance between the two styles of matchmaking that maintain prestige, but avoid an abundance of blowouts.

What prestige is there in farming pugs and solo players of lower skill in fixed matches?
None if you ask me.
If there was a solo queue league with matchmaking that tried to give each team a 50%
chance to win,then we could talk about prestige.

Jourdelune.7456:

ResJudicator.7916:

Ithilwen.1529:

@ Evan Lesh

You are confusing elite with prestigious. The elite in this case being formed by pre made team groupies who are willing to stack specific classes and builds.

The majority of matches favor one side and most of those who have risen to high rank have done so by being on a team rather than by individual skill. This doesn’t result in prestige, it results in a caste of haves and a caste of have-nots.

Everything you wrote is demonstrably false.

There are plenty of players who reached legendary via solo-queue. Heck, some guy posted a thread where he solo-queued to legendary running core necro (NOT REAPER) on a brand new free-to-play account (so no MMR advantage). Some other dude posted a thread with screenshots of each of his solo-queue matches to legendary.

How did they accomplish that? By being more skilled than you. Don’t pretend otherwise.

Sorry… but a TOP player having a fresh new account will not have difficulties because the new player account is AVG MMR (or better).

If the MMR was fixed to 20% for new account, TOP players would find it more harder to SOLOQ in the last tier of the player base.

All this because they choose to put MMR for your team but not for the opponent

Either remove MMR or do MMR vs MMR. The actual system is a joke that let TOP player trying to let you think they are better than all because they win matches on second account, but it’s false since their many account are old and got MMR in the top 20%. (and if completely fresh 2016 account, they start at AVG MMR and have the skills to make it goes higher… starting in HELL (20% bottom) would be a different story.

This is bad because many TOP players are really the best of the WORLD but the League and is MAtch Making remove that value since the system give them EASY rides.

How does one go from average MMR to below-average MMR? By repeatedly losing to players who had lower MMR than you, or at least similar MMR. Your MMR barely changes if you lose to a team that had a much higher MMR, so it’s not your blow-out losses to the Abjured Premade that caused your MMR to tank. It’s losing all those games where you were actually favored to win.

And how does one go from average MMR to a high MMR? By repeatedly beating players who had higher MMR or similar MMR.

The real problem here may just be that there aren’t enough weak players to go around. If there’s only 5 weak players in late Sapphire / early Ruby queuing up at a particular time, then they’ll all go on one team and won’t be able to find an equally weak team to play against. None of their matches will be fun. Their MMR won’t change much from the resulting blowout losses, but they’ll continue to lose any vulnerable pips.

One solution would be to let the weak players drop down tiers so that they wind up in a bigger pool of weak players, but that would just lead to more frustration with respect to progress.

The better solution would be to attract more players, so that there are enough weak players to form a 5v5. To that end, letting us queue outside HOTM would go a really long way. Also, making the reward tracks more meaningful would also help.

ResJudicator.7916:

Jourdelune.7456:

ResJudicator.7916:

Ithilwen.1529:

@ Evan Lesh

You are confusing elite with prestigious. The elite in this case being formed by pre made team groupies who are willing to stack specific classes and builds.

The majority of matches favor one side and most of those who have risen to high rank have done so by being on a team rather than by individual skill. This doesn’t result in prestige, it results in a caste of haves and a caste of have-nots.

Everything you wrote is demonstrably false.

There are plenty of players who reached legendary via solo-queue. Heck, some guy posted a thread where he solo-queued to legendary running core necro (NOT REAPER) on a brand new free-to-play account (so no MMR advantage). Some other dude posted a thread with screenshots of each of his solo-queue matches to legendary.

How did they accomplish that? By being more skilled than you. Don’t pretend otherwise.

Sorry… but a TOP player having a fresh new account will not have difficulties because the new player account is AVG MMR (or better).

If the MMR was fixed to 20% for new account, TOP players would find it more harder to SOLOQ in the last tier of the player base.

All this because they choose to put MMR for your team but not for the opponent

Either remove MMR or do MMR vs MMR. The actual system is a joke that let TOP player trying to let you think they are better than all because they win matches on second account, but it’s false since their many account are old and got MMR in the top 20%. (and if completely fresh 2016 account, they start at AVG MMR and have the skills to make it goes higher… starting in HELL (20% bottom) would be a different story.

This is bad because many TOP players are really the best of the WORLD but the League and is MAtch Making remove that value since the system give them EASY rides.

How does one go from average MMR to below-average MMR? By repeatedly losing to players who had lower MMR than you, or at least similar MMR. Your MMR barely changes if you lose to a team that had a much higher MMR, so it’s not your blow-out losses to the Abjured Premade that caused your MMR to tank. It’s losing all those games where you were actually favored to win.

And how does one go from average MMR to a high MMR? By repeatedly beating players who had higher MMR or similar MMR.

The real problem here may just be that there aren’t enough weak players to go around. If there’s only 5 weak players in late Sapphire / early Ruby queuing up at a particular time, then they’ll all go on one team and won’t be able to find an equally weak team to play against. None of their matches will be fun. Their MMR won’t change much from the resulting blowout losses, but they’ll continue to lose any vulnerable pips.

One solution would be to let the weak players drop down tiers so that they wind up in a bigger pool of weak players, but that would just lead to more frustration with respect to progress.

The better solution would be to attract more players, so that there are enough weak players to form a 5v5. To that end, letting us queue outside HOTM would go a really long way. Also, making the reward tracks more meaningful would also help.

Both of your bolded statements have to be backed up, or you are just spewing hot air. Here what Anet says ( I know the information is dated but there is nothing else out there for us to rely on). I’ll highlight the important variable for you.

<Ratings period=“3d” max-periods=“20”> <Rating default=“1500” min=“100” max=“5000” ( display the max,lowest and avearge MMR possible) max-change=“300” profession-ratio=“0.25”/>
(Now here is the deviation, that’s is how much it changes upon win/loss) <Deviation default=“350” min=“30” max=“350” /> <Volatility default=“0.06” min=“0.04” max=“0.08” system-constant=“0.5” /> </Ratings> <Ratings type=“Ranked” reset=“2013-11-26T08:00:00-08:00” partial-reset=“2015-01-27T16:30:00-08:00”/> <Ratings type=“Unranked” reset=“2013-11-26T08:00:00-08:00” partial-reset=“2015-01-27T16:30:00-08:00”/>

Based on this, it’s pretty clear that the other team MMR does matter, but to an extent, when it comes to your rating. You can lose/gain between 350 MMR point or 30 MMR point per games. Let’s say going up against the abjured resulted in a 30 MMR point loss; after 10 losses you be around 1200 MMR if you were around 1500. So, how are these numbers not significant?? I could be wrong though.

Fivedawgs.4267:

ResJudicator.7916:

Jourdelune.7456:

ResJudicator.7916:

Ithilwen.1529:

@ Evan Lesh

You are confusing elite with prestigious. The elite in this case being formed by pre made team groupies who are willing to stack specific classes and builds.

The majority of matches favor one side and most of those who have risen to high rank have done so by being on a team rather than by individual skill. This doesn’t result in prestige, it results in a caste of haves and a caste of have-nots.

Everything you wrote is demonstrably false.

There are plenty of players who reached legendary via solo-queue. Heck, some guy posted a thread where he solo-queued to legendary running core necro (NOT REAPER) on a brand new free-to-play account (so no MMR advantage). Some other dude posted a thread with screenshots of each of his solo-queue matches to legendary.

How did they accomplish that? By being more skilled than you. Don’t pretend otherwise.

Sorry… but a TOP player having a fresh new account will not have difficulties because the new player account is AVG MMR (or better).

If the MMR was fixed to 20% for new account, TOP players would find it more harder to SOLOQ in the last tier of the player base.

All this because they choose to put MMR for your team but not for the opponent

Either remove MMR or do MMR vs MMR. The actual system is a joke that let TOP player trying to let you think they are better than all because they win matches on second account, but it’s false since their many account are old and got MMR in the top 20%. (and if completely fresh 2016 account, they start at AVG MMR and have the skills to make it goes higher… starting in HELL (20% bottom) would be a different story.

This is bad because many TOP players are really the best of the WORLD but the League and is MAtch Making remove that value since the system give them EASY rides.

How does one go from average MMR to below-average MMR? By repeatedly losing to players who had lower MMR than you, or at least similar MMR. Your MMR barely changes if you lose to a team that had a much higher MMR, so it’s not your blow-out losses to the Abjured Premade that caused your MMR to tank. It’s losing all those games where you were actually favored to win.

And how does one go from average MMR to a high MMR? By repeatedly beating players who had higher MMR or similar MMR.

The real problem here may just be that there aren’t enough weak players to go around. If there’s only 5 weak players in late Sapphire / early Ruby queuing up at a particular time, then they’ll all go on one team and won’t be able to find an equally weak team to play against. None of their matches will be fun. Their MMR won’t change much from the resulting blowout losses, but they’ll continue to lose any vulnerable pips.

One solution would be to let the weak players drop down tiers so that they wind up in a bigger pool of weak players, but that would just lead to more frustration with respect to progress.

The better solution would be to attract more players, so that there are enough weak players to form a 5v5. To that end, letting us queue outside HOTM would go a really long way. Also, making the reward tracks more meaningful would also help.

Both of your bolded statements have to be backed up, or you are just spewing hot air. Here what Anet says ( I know the information is dated but there is nothing else out there for us to rely on). I’ll highlight the important variable for you.

<Ratings period=“3d” max-periods=“20”> <Rating default=“1500” min=“100” max=“5000” ( display the max,lowest and avearge MMR possible) max-change=“300” profession-ratio=“0.25”/>
(Now here is the deviation, that’s is how much it changes upon win/loss) <Deviation default=“350” min=“30” max=“350” /> <Volatility default=“0.06” min=“0.04” max=“0.08” system-constant=“0.5” /> </Ratings> <Ratings type=“Ranked” reset=“2013-11-26T08:00:00-08:00” partial-reset=“2015-01-27T16:30:00-08:00”/> <Ratings type=“Unranked” reset=“2013-11-26T08:00:00-08:00” partial-reset=“2015-01-27T16:30:00-08:00”/>

Based on this, it’s pretty clear that the other team MMR does matter, but to an extent, when it comes to your rating. You can lose/gain between 350 MMR point or 30 MMR point per games. Let’s say going up against the abjured resulted in a 30 MMR point loss; after 10 losses you be around 1200 MMR if you were around 1500. So, how are these numbers not significant?? I could be wrong though.

In Glicko2, the “Deviation Default,” “Deviation Min,” and “Deviation Max” values are multiplied by a function of your volatility to determine the actual change in your rating. (See http://www.glicko.net/glicko/glicko2.pdf, starting at page 4). I can’t copy/paste the actual formula so I’ve provided a link instead. (Note: It’s not a straight up multiplication, but the volatility factors into the final ratings change). So the actual ratings changes are going to be lower than what you provided.

Also, there’s nothing wrong with your MMR going down by a meaningful amount if you lose 10 times in a row (even if it’s to the Abjured). But if you lose to the Abjured twice, then win vs. a team that’s closely matched to yours, then you could have a net MMR increase (using the information you provided). So again, the primary impact on your MMR is going to be all of the games where your MMRs are relatively close. This goes back to my earlier point about how “MMR hell” is an issue only when there aren’t enough weak players to form a competitive 5v5 (see above for suggested solutions).

what? not losing much mmr by losing to higher ranked opponents and losing a good amount by losing to lower ranked opponents is how EVERY match making algorithm works, in every game/sport/competition.

this isn’t something Anet just invented.

Current S2 matchmaking takes your MMR into account to find a party, it then finds another party that is within 15+/- pips. Is the issue because there is no party to post against or is the issue that it can’t find 4 other players with your MMR within your division?

If the issue is that your MMR is too high and can’t find players in the range then matchmaking should just put you with other players of the same division regardless of MMR.

If the issue is that there is no party 15+/- your current pip level, then you have a playerbase issue.

If you have a playerbase issue because legendary is not rewarding, then my advice would be to create a legendary reward tracks that you can unlock for each Legendary division you complete.

Example: I reach legendary x 1, I can choose to unlock the Legendary HoT reward track that has the best HoT rewards (skins, items, currency) which can be done multiple times or I can choose the Legendary Dungeon reward track that gets me dungeon armor at more frequent intervals than before from any dungeon, or the Legendary Crafting Track that get’s me keys, ascended crafting mats, etc.

If the issue is that even with a good reward track, people aren’t playing. Then you have a balance/gameplay issue and that would take more time.

Tldr: Increase rewards to get people to play and review MMR at high levels to default to division after a set time frame to increase the find party range.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Matchmaking doesn’t count pips past the end of legendary, so prestige count won’t affect queue times.

It was said already, but with an accurate or prestigious ladder you get people on each extreme with long queue times as the population to pull from is smaller. Queue times in unranked are never this bad because we expand the mmr search range quite far over time. We could do the equivalent expansion of the ladder search range, but there will be just as many (if not more) people then complaining about all the legendary players in their ruby matches.

To summarize the issues people have brought up:
An accurate ladder rewards skill at the cost of queue time.
Reducing queue time would require frustrating players with imbalanced matches (either by skill, or just visual ladder badge).
Making the ladder more about grind gets more players to legendary, but there is no prestige.

What would make legendary players happy to keep playing the game? Is it just quicker queue times? What if you could do other things while waiting? What if there was something other than leagues all together like unranked arena that legendary players could go to until more players make it to legendary?

Hi Evan,

I have pretty great ideas on how to attract more ppl to pvp,
and making it competitive and challenging and fun as well.

With lots of innovative stuff.

However I am not going to post them here,
as I am not being paid for that (rather I payed for the game ;-))

Otherwise it would be great to confer on this topic
and freshen things out.

Cheers!

ResJudicator.7916:

Fivedawgs.4267:

ResJudicator.7916:

Jourdelune.7456:

ResJudicator.7916:

Ithilwen.1529:

@ Evan Lesh

You are confusing elite with prestigious. The elite in this case being formed by pre made team groupies who are willing to stack specific classes and builds.

The majority of matches favor one side and most of those who have risen to high rank have done so by being on a team rather than by individual skill. This doesn’t result in prestige, it results in a caste of haves and a caste of have-nots.

Everything you wrote is demonstrably false.

There are plenty of players who reached legendary via solo-queue. Heck, some guy posted a thread where he solo-queued to legendary running core necro (NOT REAPER) on a brand new free-to-play account (so no MMR advantage). Some other dude posted a thread with screenshots of each of his solo-queue matches to legendary.

How did they accomplish that? By being more skilled than you. Don’t pretend otherwise.

Sorry… but a TOP player having a fresh new account will not have difficulties because the new player account is AVG MMR (or better).

If the MMR was fixed to 20% for new account, TOP players would find it more harder to SOLOQ in the last tier of the player base.

All this because they choose to put MMR for your team but not for the opponent

Either remove MMR or do MMR vs MMR. The actual system is a joke that let TOP player trying to let you think they are better than all because they win matches on second account, but it’s false since their many account are old and got MMR in the top 20%. (and if completely fresh 2016 account, they start at AVG MMR and have the skills to make it goes higher… starting in HELL (20% bottom) would be a different story.

This is bad because many TOP players are really the best of the WORLD but the League and is MAtch Making remove that value since the system give them EASY rides.

How does one go from average MMR to below-average MMR? By repeatedly losing to players who had lower MMR than you, or at least similar MMR. Your MMR barely changes if you lose to a team that had a much higher MMR, so it’s not your blow-out losses to the Abjured Premade that caused your MMR to tank. It’s losing all those games where you were actually favored to win.

And how does one go from average MMR to a high MMR? By repeatedly beating players who had higher MMR or similar MMR.

The real problem here may just be that there aren’t enough weak players to go around. If there’s only 5 weak players in late Sapphire / early Ruby queuing up at a particular time, then they’ll all go on one team and won’t be able to find an equally weak team to play against. None of their matches will be fun. Their MMR won’t change much from the resulting blowout losses, but they’ll continue to lose any vulnerable pips.

One solution would be to let the weak players drop down tiers so that they wind up in a bigger pool of weak players, but that would just lead to more frustration with respect to progress.

The better solution would be to attract more players, so that there are enough weak players to form a 5v5. To that end, letting us queue outside HOTM would go a really long way. Also, making the reward tracks more meaningful would also help.

Both of your bolded statements have to be backed up, or you are just spewing hot air. Here what Anet says ( I know the information is dated but there is nothing else out there for us to rely on). I’ll highlight the important variable for you.

<Ratings period=“3d” max-periods=“20”> <Rating default=“1500” min=“100” max=“5000” ( display the max,lowest and avearge MMR possible) max-change=“300” profession-ratio=“0.25”/>
(Now here is the deviation, that’s is how much it changes upon win/loss) <Deviation default=“350” min=“30” max=“350” /> <Volatility default=“0.06” min=“0.04” max=“0.08” system-constant=“0.5” /> </Ratings> <Ratings type=“Ranked” reset=“2013-11-26T08:00:00-08:00” partial-reset=“2015-01-27T16:30:00-08:00”/> <Ratings type=“Unranked” reset=“2013-11-26T08:00:00-08:00” partial-reset=“2015-01-27T16:30:00-08:00”/>

Based on this, it’s pretty clear that the other team MMR does matter, but to an extent, when it comes to your rating. You can lose/gain between 350 MMR point or 30 MMR point per games. Let’s say going up against the abjured resulted in a 30 MMR point loss; after 10 losses you be around 1200 MMR if you were around 1500. So, how are these numbers not significant?? I could be wrong though.

In Glicko2, the “Deviation Default,” “Deviation Min,” and “Deviation Max” values are multiplied by a function of your volatility to determine the actual change in your rating. (See http://www.glicko.net/glicko/glicko2.pdf, starting at page 4). I can’t copy/paste the actual formula so I’ve provided a link instead. (Note: It’s not a straight up multiplication, but the volatility factors into the final ratings change). So the actual ratings changes are going to be lower than what you provided.

Also, there’s nothing wrong with your MMR going down by a meaningful amount if you lose 10 times in a row (even if it’s to the Abjured). But if you lose to the Abjured twice, then win vs. a team that’s closely matched to yours, then you could have a net MMR increase (using the information you provided). So again, the primary impact on your MMR is going to be all of the games where your MMRs are relatively close. This goes back to my earlier point about how “MMR hell” is an issue only when there aren’t enough weak players to form a competitive 5v5 (see above for suggested solutions).

Also like someone stated below me, MMR is only taken into account to match you with similar folks. So losing 10 games in row, might be a thing depending on which side of the MMR you ended up in. Because there is no corralLatin between your team MMR and the opponent. So the MMR hell is actually a thing if you factor everything.

Fivedawgs.4267:

ResJudicator.7916:

Fivedawgs.4267:

ResJudicator.7916:

Jourdelune.7456:

ResJudicator.7916:

Ithilwen.1529:

@ Evan Lesh

You are confusing elite with prestigious. The elite in this case being formed by pre made team groupies who are willing to stack specific classes and builds.

The majority of matches favor one side and most of those who have risen to high rank have done so by being on a team rather than by individual skill. This doesn’t result in prestige, it results in a caste of haves and a caste of have-nots.

Everything you wrote is demonstrably false.

There are plenty of players who reached legendary via solo-queue. Heck, some guy posted a thread where he solo-queued to legendary running core necro (NOT REAPER) on a brand new free-to-play account (so no MMR advantage). Some other dude posted a thread with screenshots of each of his solo-queue matches to legendary.

How did they accomplish that? By being more skilled than you. Don’t pretend otherwise.

Sorry… but a TOP player having a fresh new account will not have difficulties because the new player account is AVG MMR (or better).

If the MMR was fixed to 20% for new account, TOP players would find it more harder to SOLOQ in the last tier of the player base.

All this because they choose to put MMR for your team but not for the opponent

Either remove MMR or do MMR vs MMR. The actual system is a joke that let TOP player trying to let you think they are better than all because they win matches on second account, but it’s false since their many account are old and got MMR in the top 20%. (and if completely fresh 2016 account, they start at AVG MMR and have the skills to make it goes higher… starting in HELL (20% bottom) would be a different story.

This is bad because many TOP players are really the best of the WORLD but the League and is MAtch Making remove that value since the system give them EASY rides.

How does one go from average MMR to below-average MMR? By repeatedly losing to players who had lower MMR than you, or at least similar MMR. Your MMR barely changes if you lose to a team that had a much higher MMR, so it’s not your blow-out losses to the Abjured Premade that caused your MMR to tank. It’s losing all those games where you were actually favored to win.

And how does one go from average MMR to a high MMR? By repeatedly beating players who had higher MMR or similar MMR.

The real problem here may just be that there aren’t enough weak players to go around. If there’s only 5 weak players in late Sapphire / early Ruby queuing up at a particular time, then they’ll all go on one team and won’t be able to find an equally weak team to play against. None of their matches will be fun. Their MMR won’t change much from the resulting blowout losses, but they’ll continue to lose any vulnerable pips.

One solution would be to let the weak players drop down tiers so that they wind up in a bigger pool of weak players, but that would just lead to more frustration with respect to progress.

The better solution would be to attract more players, so that there are enough weak players to form a 5v5. To that end, letting us queue outside HOTM would go a really long way. Also, making the reward tracks more meaningful would also help.

Both of your bolded statements have to be backed up, or you are just spewing hot air. Here what Anet says ( I know the information is dated but there is nothing else out there for us to rely on). I’ll highlight the important variable for you.

<Ratings period=“3d” max-periods=“20”> <Rating default=“1500” min=“100” max=“5000” ( display the max,lowest and avearge MMR possible) max-change=“300” profession-ratio=“0.25”/>
(Now here is the deviation, that’s is how much it changes upon win/loss) <Deviation default=“350” min=“30” max=“350” /> <Volatility default=“0.06” min=“0.04” max=“0.08” system-constant=“0.5” /> </Ratings> <Ratings type=“Ranked” reset=“2013-11-26T08:00:00-08:00” partial-reset=“2015-01-27T16:30:00-08:00”/> <Ratings type=“Unranked” reset=“2013-11-26T08:00:00-08:00” partial-reset=“2015-01-27T16:30:00-08:00”/>

Based on this, it’s pretty clear that the other team MMR does matter, but to an extent, when it comes to your rating. You can lose/gain between 350 MMR point or 30 MMR point per games. Let’s say going up against the abjured resulted in a 30 MMR point loss; after 10 losses you be around 1200 MMR if you were around 1500. So, how are these numbers not significant?? I could be wrong though.

In Glicko2, the “Deviation Default,” “Deviation Min,” and “Deviation Max” values are multiplied by a function of your volatility to determine the actual change in your rating. (See http://www.glicko.net/glicko/glicko2.pdf, starting at page 4). I can’t copy/paste the actual formula so I’ve provided a link instead. (Note: It’s not a straight up multiplication, but the volatility factors into the final ratings change). So the actual ratings changes are going to be lower than what you provided.

Also, there’s nothing wrong with your MMR going down by a meaningful amount if you lose 10 times in a row (even if it’s to the Abjured). But if you lose to the Abjured twice, then win vs. a team that’s closely matched to yours, then you could have a net MMR increase (using the information you provided). So again, the primary impact on your MMR is going to be all of the games where your MMRs are relatively close. This goes back to my earlier point about how “MMR hell” is an issue only when there aren’t enough weak players to form a competitive 5v5 (see above for suggested solutions).

Also like someone stated below me, MMR is only taken into account to match you with similar folks. So losing 10 games in row, might be a thing depending on which side of the MMR you ended up in. Because there is no corralLatin between your team MMR and the opponent.

That’s a separate point, and I agree with it. If your MMR is below-average relative to other players in your pip-range, then you’re going to lose more often than win. Just like if I became an NBA player, whatever team I join is going to lose more often than win (assuming that they’re forced to field me, rather than keep me on the bench).

But let’s be real here: the people still stuck in emerald/sapphire/low-ruby are not going up against the Abjured in unwinnable matchups. Using your own logic, all of the high-MMR people should already be in diamond/legendary by now.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Matchmaking doesn’t count pips past the end of legendary, so prestige count won’t affect queue times.

It was said already, but with an accurate or prestigious ladder you get people on each extreme with long queue times as the population to pull from is smaller. Queue times in unranked are never this bad because we expand the mmr search range quite far over time. We could do the equivalent expansion of the ladder search range, but there will be just as many (if not more) people then complaining about all the legendary players in their ruby matches.

To summarize the issues people have brought up:
An accurate ladder rewards skill at the cost of queue time.
Reducing queue time would require frustrating players with imbalanced matches (either by skill, or just visual ladder badge).
Making the ladder more about grind gets more players to legendary, but there is no prestige.

What would make legendary players happy to keep playing the game? Is it just quicker queue times? What if you could do other things while waiting? What if there was something other than leagues all together like unranked arena that legendary players could go to until more players make it to legendary?

After all the feedback this forum has given you THIS is the question you ask the community.

How about ’What would make NEW and AVERAGE/CASUAL players happy to keep playing the game?

You STILL don’t seem to know what side your bread’s buttered on.

Take a look at the choice of multi-class PVP games coming out this year. Blizzard & Epic Games say hello…

E-sports is a CONSEQUENCE of POPULARITY – Not the other way around.

FUN>POPULATION>E-SPORT.

Alienate the casuals at your peril.

worst game i ever seen
f ing balance ?
queue time ?

ResJudicator.7916:

Fivedawgs.4267:

ResJudicator.7916:

Fivedawgs.4267:

ResJudicator.7916:

Jourdelune.7456:

ResJudicator.7916:

Ithilwen.1529:

@ Evan Lesh

You are confusing elite with prestigious. The elite in this case being formed by pre made team groupies who are willing to stack specific classes and builds.

The majority of matches favor one side and most of those who have risen to high rank have done so by being on a team rather than by individual skill. This doesn’t result in prestige, it results in a caste of haves and a caste of have-nots.

Everything you wrote is demonstrably false.

There are plenty of players who reached legendary via solo-queue. Heck, some guy posted a thread where he solo-queued to legendary running core necro (NOT REAPER) on a brand new free-to-play account (so no MMR advantage). Some other dude posted a thread with screenshots of each of his solo-queue matches to legendary.

How did they accomplish that? By being more skilled than you. Don’t pretend otherwise.

Sorry… but a TOP player having a fresh new account will not have difficulties because the new player account is AVG MMR (or better).

If the MMR was fixed to 20% for new account, TOP players would find it more harder to SOLOQ in the last tier of the player base.

All this because they choose to put MMR for your team but not for the opponent

Either remove MMR or do MMR vs MMR. The actual system is a joke that let TOP player trying to let you think they are better than all because they win matches on second account, but it’s false since their many account are old and got MMR in the top 20%. (and if completely fresh 2016 account, they start at AVG MMR and have the skills to make it goes higher… starting in HELL (20% bottom) would be a different story.

This is bad because many TOP players are really the best of the WORLD but the League and is MAtch Making remove that value since the system give them EASY rides.

How does one go from average MMR to below-average MMR? By repeatedly losing to players who had lower MMR than you, or at least similar MMR. Your MMR barely changes if you lose to a team that had a much higher MMR, so it’s not your blow-out losses to the Abjured Premade that caused your MMR to tank. It’s losing all those games where you were actually favored to win.

And how does one go from average MMR to a high MMR? By repeatedly beating players who had higher MMR or similar MMR.

The real problem here may just be that there aren’t enough weak players to go around. If there’s only 5 weak players in late Sapphire / early Ruby queuing up at a particular time, then they’ll all go on one team and won’t be able to find an equally weak team to play against. None of their matches will be fun. Their MMR won’t change much from the resulting blowout losses, but they’ll continue to lose any vulnerable pips.

One solution would be to let the weak players drop down tiers so that they wind up in a bigger pool of weak players, but that would just lead to more frustration with respect to progress.

The better solution would be to attract more players, so that there are enough weak players to form a 5v5. To that end, letting us queue outside HOTM would go a really long way. Also, making the reward tracks more meaningful would also help.

Both of your bolded statements have to be backed up, or you are just spewing hot air. Here what Anet says ( I know the information is dated but there is nothing else out there for us to rely on). I’ll highlight the important variable for you.

<Ratings period=“3d” max-periods=“20”> <Rating default=“1500” min=“100” max=“5000” ( display the max,lowest and avearge MMR possible) max-change=“300” profession-ratio=“0.25”/>
(Now here is the deviation, that’s is how much it changes upon win/loss) <Deviation default=“350” min=“30” max=“350” /> <Volatility default=“0.06” min=“0.04” max=“0.08” system-constant=“0.5” /> </Ratings> <Ratings type=“Ranked” reset=“2013-11-26T08:00:00-08:00” partial-reset=“2015-01-27T16:30:00-08:00”/> <Ratings type=“Unranked” reset=“2013-11-26T08:00:00-08:00” partial-reset=“2015-01-27T16:30:00-08:00”/>

Based on this, it’s pretty clear that the other team MMR does matter, but to an extent, when it comes to your rating. You can lose/gain between 350 MMR point or 30 MMR point per games. Let’s say going up against the abjured resulted in a 30 MMR point loss; after 10 losses you be around 1200 MMR if you were around 1500. So, how are these numbers not significant?? I could be wrong though.

In Glicko2, the “Deviation Default,” “Deviation Min,” and “Deviation Max” values are multiplied by a function of your volatility to determine the actual change in your rating. (See http://www.glicko.net/glicko/glicko2.pdf, starting at page 4). I can’t copy/paste the actual formula so I’ve provided a link instead. (Note: It’s not a straight up multiplication, but the volatility factors into the final ratings change). So the actual ratings changes are going to be lower than what you provided.

Also, there’s nothing wrong with your MMR going down by a meaningful amount if you lose 10 times in a row (even if it’s to the Abjured). But if you lose to the Abjured twice, then win vs. a team that’s closely matched to yours, then you could have a net MMR increase (using the information you provided). So again, the primary impact on your MMR is going to be all of the games where your MMRs are relatively close. This goes back to my earlier point about how “MMR hell” is an issue only when there aren’t enough weak players to form a competitive 5v5 (see above for suggested solutions).

Also like someone stated below me, MMR is only taken into account to match you with similar folks. So losing 10 games in row, might be a thing depending on which side of the MMR you ended up in. Because there is no corralLatin between your team MMR and the opponent.

That’s a separate point, and I agree with it. If your MMR is below-average relative to other players in your pip-range, then you’re going to lose more often than win. Just like if I became an NBA player, whatever team I join is going to lose more often than win (assuming that they’re forced to field me, rather than keep me on the bench).

But let’s be real here: the people still stuck in emerald/sapphire/low-ruby are not going up against the Abjured in unwinnable matchups. Using your own logic, all of the high-MMR people should already be in diamond/legendary by now.

Aren’t they? (Just to clarify most players around my unrank bracket are) I agree with much of the above post. But in the real world as you said, don’t they have grounds to complain? It like a loop hole on a tax code, not everything has to use it but as long as it’s there, why not take advantage of it.

But you def make great points, and also they don’t have to be match to the Abjured, the outcome of a 1 vs 10 (the abjured) is pretty clear; those people (myself included) might be experiencing 4 vs 5 or 3 vs 6. Although, it’s not hard to beat those odds, that’s still doesn’t change the fact that one side is favored over the other hence the loss streak.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Matchmaking doesn’t count pips past the end of legendary, so prestige count won’t affect queue times.

It was said already, but with an accurate or prestigious ladder you get people on each extreme with long queue times as the population to pull from is smaller. Queue times in unranked are never this bad because we expand the mmr search range quite far over time. We could do the equivalent expansion of the ladder search range, but there will be just as many (if not more) people then complaining about all the legendary players in their ruby matches.

To summarize the issues people have brought up:
An accurate ladder rewards skill at the cost of queue time.
Reducing queue time would require frustrating players with imbalanced matches (either by skill, or just visual ladder badge).
Making the ladder more about grind gets more players to legendary, but there is no prestige.

What would make legendary players happy to keep playing the game? Is it just quicker queue times? What if you could do other things while waiting? What if there was something other than leagues all together like unranked arena that legendary players could go to until more players make it to legendary?

I think something connected to gold reward in legendary tiers, as well as add some rare skins, or unique skins for PvP tickets, with division requirement to purchase them.

As for Wings, i really suggest you just to remove it from league tied rewards, you ll have way way less people frustrated that way with leagues and all this stuff. I think most of people who wanted them really hard, ll get them soon enough.

Octaslash.9437:

foogison.5067:

I think the sad thing is that there are still a lot of players stuck in ruby/diamond who deserve to be in legend division who aren’t because of solo queue MMR hell

I agree with this, after getting to Tier 7 Diamond ( solo ) and then suddenly dropping to tier 2 within 3 days, I can tell you that I’m pretty burned out, there were games where I got the same teammates 5 consecutive times, I would get the same players in my team on other days as well, no not in the opposing team, but in my team. Today for example, I got a warrior and 2 premades twice in my team, after having stopped playing for a few hours, I get the same players again. Match making is bad and I’m seriously thinking of leaving PvP until they fix their kittening system.

It doesn’t matter how hard I try to carry, I get frustrated about the loss in the end, if I made mistakes, I blame myself, I reflect on what I could have done better, but it seriously gets tiring after a while and I start questioning myself whether this game is really worth playing, though I will not lose hope.

My worst experience has been getting players from a team I just defeated on my team in the next game and then losing..

BrotherBelial.3094:

You know we are having unbalanced matches right the way through the league right? Like having a duo in a solo queue pulling a 5 man guild team.

I have spent the best part of a week trying to get in to ruby, with the most pip I can get is 4 in sapphire T5, before I end up facing a full 5 man team and being smacked back down to 0 pips. Frustration is not the word. My rage could melt planets.

If you duo queue or someone on your team is a duo team and you pull a 5 man premade…that isn’t a death sentence. I’ve been on more than one team against a guild premade or like this screenshot shows against a full 5 party premade. And most times we beat them anyway. Not always, but more often than not it seems. I only solo queue so I was surprised to see a full 5 man team when the match ended, but the way they changed it seems to work (for me).

But on topic, while my queue times are reasonable, no one should have to deal with more than 10-15 minutes in queue. Your queue time should not exceed the time allotted for each match. That’s unfair to those that got to the top.

Evan Lesh.3295:

In season 1 every match was trying to be even, but this allowed players to grind through the ladder. Season 2 is the opposite of this, but players are clearly experiencing matches that are too volatile. Once players reach a division relative to their skill, the only blowout matches that should be happening would be from people coming late to the season. I feel there may be balance between the two styles of matchmaking that maintain prestige, but avoid an abundance of blowouts.

In theory the system should have settled in the first week . I really do not think there is a huge wave of skilled pvper joining season late to explain the large amount of blowouts this late into the season. The honest answer has to be that mmr is not a good enough reflection of skill.