so why am i playig thief again?
nice discussion!
about the video : that’s like tanking a shatter while you see the clones walking right at you.
it can be avoided by just moving behind the pet or dodging into it and usually requires a setup of the ranger or the team he plays with, consisting of an immobilize or some cc to lock the target in place.
as for pets scaling with amulet – hard to pull off in a balanced way as overall the pet/ai system needs changing as it makes it easier for bad players to get into the class while keeping good players down and thus closer together skillwise, which is definately not something i like.
so in order to start balancing out the AI stuff and to make it a fun mechanic to play ( as in outplaying someone not by random chance due to the pet chain fireing off the right skill at the right time, but actively controlling it) and play against( as in providing a way of judging the players skill,awareness and experience) rangers need full control over their pet skills.
adding in scaling with the amulet + the above would propably not benefit a lot of pets per se, as f.e. why would you run jaguar in a dps build when wolf offers more control with just a little less damage – furthermore why would you take a dps pet if you go for a defensive build, when the scaling and the utility provided is poor.
it’d just pigeonhole rangers even more into running canines in spvp – arguably some other pets might become good, but that is with direct control over the pet skills only, not with adding pet scaling with amulets as i think that’s going into the wrong direction and wouldn’t provide a wide variety of playstyles.
i mean imagine pet f2 skills would actually benefit from the 30% critical damage trait while running a soldier/knights/valk/berserker amulet – the complains would be huge, especially on birds and felines again and if pets would share the same base stats, then why take anything else than a canine in most situations?
about the video : that’s like tanking a shatter while you see the clones walking right at you.
it can be avoided by just moving behind the pet or dodging into it and usually requires a setup of the ranger or the team he plays with, consisting of an immobilize or some cc to lock the target in place.as for pets scaling with amulet – hard to pull off in a balanced way as overall the pet/ai system needs changing as it makes it easier for bad players to get into the class while keeping good players down and thus closer together skillwise, which is definately not something i like.
so in order to start balancing out the AI stuff and to make it a fun mechanic to play ( as in outplaying someone not by random chance due to the pet chain fireing off the right skill at the right time, but actively controlling it) and play against( as in providing a way of judging the players skill,awareness and experience) rangers need full control over their pet skills.
adding in scaling with the amulet + the above would propably not benefit a lot of pets per se, as f.e. why would you run jaguar in a dps build when wolf offers more control with just a little less damage – furthermore why would you take a dps pet if you go for a defensive build, when the scaling and the utility provided is poor.
it’d just pigeonhole rangers even more into running canines in spvp – arguably some other pets might become good, but that is with direct control over the pet skills only, not with adding pet scaling with amulets as i think that’s going into the wrong direction and wouldn’t provide a wide variety of playstyles.
i mean imagine pet f2 skills would actually benefit from the 30% critical damage trait while running a soldier/knights/valk/berserker amulet – the complains would be huge, especially on birds and felines again and if pets would share the same base stats, then why take anything else than a canine in most situations?
I see your point and I agree
I just think the pets should be harder to control because then the dmg would be okay
Can’t agree more…nothing more irritating then getting hit by a drake for 7k when you’ve already got to waste all your dodges with the spirits kicking your kitten (all while you’re getting loads of burning and bleeds from SB autoattacks). Not to mention storm spirit can crit for 6k too…I don’t agree that AI should have this type of power when classes are built for condis.
But then do you really want a stealthed jaguar stacking bleeds on you that deal the same amount of damage as the ranger’s bleeds? Not to mention with sun spirit the pet is also stacking burning, so then it actually is a 1 v 2 against a ranger. At least with the current system its like 1 v 1.5.
i want my op double ravens back.
But then do you really want a stealthed jaguar stacking bleeds on you that deal the same amount of damage as the ranger’s bleeds? Not to mention with sun spirit the pet is also stacking burning, so then it actually is a 1 v 2 against a ranger. At least with the current system its like 1 v 1.5.
No, he’s not saying pet stats should match the Ranger’s. He’s saying that the pet stats should scale with the Ranger’s. In other words, instead of pets having fixed stats based on the Ranger’s level, the pets would have a coefficient for each stat to multiply against the Ranger’s stat. For example, in the case of your Jaguar, maybe the Condition Damage coefficient for it is 0.5. So, if the Ranger has 1400 Condition Damage, the Jaguar would have 700. All stats for all pets would work this way: Birds would scale really well with Precision and Power (great companions for power Rangers) whereas bears would scale really well with Vitality and Toughness (work best with Soldier amulet setups). Having it this way would make it impossible to have these tanky condition builds that also have burst potential through their pet, because you wouldn’t have the Power or Precision stat base to scale any of the pets well enough. Instead, you would take cats or spiders to supplement your condition output.
agree with OP
/15char
But then do you really want a stealthed jaguar stacking bleeds on you that deal the same amount of damage as the ranger’s bleeds? Not to mention with sun spirit the pet is also stacking burning, so then it actually is a 1 v 2 against a ranger. At least with the current system its like 1 v 1.5.
No, he’s not saying pet stats should match the Ranger’s. He’s saying that the pet stats should scale with the Ranger’s. In other words, instead of pets having fixed stats based on the Ranger’s level, the pets would have a coefficient for each stat to multiply against the Ranger’s stat. For example, in the case of your Jaguar, maybe the Condition Damage coefficient for it is 0.5. So, if the Ranger has 1400 Condition Damage, the Jaguar would have 700. All stats for all pets would work this way: Birds would scale really well with Precision and Power (great companions for power Rangers) whereas bears would scale really well with Vitality and Toughness (work best with Soldier amulet setups). Having it this way would make it impossible to have these tanky condition builds that also have burst potential through their pet, because you wouldn’t have the Power or Precision stat base to scale any of the pets well enough. Instead, you would take cats or spiders to supplement your condition output.
This ^
Right now no condition pets are viable so every condition spec ranger opt’s not to take them. By adding in scaling you are weakening the power pets that are always taken by condition rangers and perhaps adding in variability to pet selection (although dogs -the control pet- can be taken by power OR condi). Right now the only reason to take condi pets is to supply trash conditions because they do not do significant damage (poison, cripple, chill, immob, vuln, weakness, etc).
And like what has already been said, pets do not fully scale, they take a coefficient of rangers ability scaled towards their initial purpose. This would stop tank rangers from doing burst damage through dps pets, but they would still add to their survivability. Instead we might see bunker rangers taking Moa’s, power rangers might become viable instantly because they would actually have greater burst due to pet scaling.
Other things that need fixing are the pathfinding in areas for PvP maps, for example clocktower on the rafters dropping into the middle has your pet wandering around the entire raters then into the middle (this pretty much makes you lose you condi removal for 20s, its not a ranger only problem as well). Non damaging falls should be allowed to be taken by pets, and they should be able to climb items a player can jump up while in combat.
The main thing is though that if pets ever gain the ability to attack while on the move their auto-attacks will have to be supremely destroyed damage wise, which I am actually okay with. I actually believe all sources of auto-attacks should be trivialized to put more emphasis on dodging problematic skills instead of dodge spam.
Anyway just my thoughts.
But then do you really want a stealthed jaguar stacking bleeds on you that deal the same amount of damage as the ranger’s bleeds? Not to mention with sun spirit the pet is also stacking burning, so then it actually is a 1 v 2 against a ranger. At least with the current system its like 1 v 1.5.
No, he’s not saying pet stats should match the Ranger’s. He’s saying that the pet stats should scale with the Ranger’s. In other words, instead of pets having fixed stats based on the Ranger’s level, the pets would have a coefficient for each stat to multiply against the Ranger’s stat. For example, in the case of your Jaguar, maybe the Condition Damage coefficient for it is 0.5. So, if the Ranger has 1400 Condition Damage, the Jaguar would have 700. All stats for all pets would work this way: Birds would scale really well with Precision and Power (great companions for power Rangers) whereas bears would scale really well with Vitality and Toughness (work best with Soldier amulet setups). Having it this way would make it impossible to have these tanky condition builds that also have burst potential through their pet, because you wouldn’t have the Power or Precision stat base to scale any of the pets well enough. Instead, you would take cats or spiders to supplement your condition output.
This ^
Right now no condition pets are viable so every condition spec ranger opt’s not to take them. By adding in scaling you are weakening the power pets that are always taken by condition rangers and perhaps adding in variability to pet selection (although dogs -the control pet- can be taken by power OR condi). Right now the only reason to take condi pets is to supply trash conditions because they do not do significant damage (poison, cripple, chill, immob, vuln, weakness, etc).And like what has already been said, pets do not fully scale, they take a coefficient of rangers ability scaled towards their initial purpose. This would stop tank rangers from doing burst damage through dps pets, but they would still add to their survivability. Instead we might see bunker rangers taking Moa’s, power rangers might become viable instantly because they would actually have greater burst due to pet scaling.
Other things that need fixing are the pathfinding in areas for PvP maps, for example clocktower on the rafters dropping into the middle has your pet wandering around the entire raters then into the middle (this pretty much makes you lose you condi removal for 20s, its not a ranger only problem as well). Non damaging falls should be allowed to be taken by pets, and they should be able to climb items a player can jump up while in combat.
The main thing is though that if pets ever gain the ability to attack while on the move their auto-attacks will have to be supremely destroyed damage wise, which I am actually okay with. I actually believe all sources of auto-attacks should be trivialized to put more emphasis on dodging problematic skills instead of dodge spam.
Anyway just my thoughts.
nice thoughts there
Even tho it will be nice to have it i believe that this is imposible..They must rework and redo every “progress” they made so far in pets.
And i honestly believe that its not in the right direction..
We need more controlable pets, not more suitable stats on them…
I do think that would be a great change but heres a question for you…
With immunity EXISTING (AR Diamon Skin possibl etc) would making pets on a spirit ranger only condi damage based remove their current work-around (minus carrion amulet) for the immunities?
But once game removes/changes these this change could make the game further balanced.
Agree/disagree?
pet stats should match ranger’s…tanky pets for tough\vit specs and dps\cond for dps\cond ones…bunker’s pet must not crit for 5k, whatever you use it should have stats related to yours…otherwise you’re basically going around with a bunker coupled with a pocket warrior all the time. Again if you spec dps your pet must be dps (Not condition or tanky) and if you go bunker your pet is gonna be hard to kill but hitting like a bunker..
^this.
15chars
Pets will have to scale at some point as rangers were already behind in PvE because the pets can’t achieve the 110% crit damage bonus other classes can, and with the introduction of ascended items meaning a 15% difference in stats, the pets will keep falling behind.
It’s one of the things really holding ranger glass cannon specs back.
pet stats should match ranger’s…tanky pets for tough\vit specs and dps\cond for dps\cond ones…bunker’s pet must not crit for 5k, whatever you use it should have stats related to yours…otherwise you’re basically going around with a bunker coupled with a pocket warrior all the time. Again if you spec dps your pet must be dps (Not condition or tanky) and if you go bunker your pet is gonna be hard to kill but hitting like a bunker..
So you’re saying that rangers, who are designed with base weapon damage numbers well over half of what other classes do, be assigned useless pets?
Because I’m pretty sure you would get a chuckle out of the idea of a ranger coming into a pvp match with a bear or moa.
If pets are gonna be made tanks with no damage, then rangers better get a “place here” command and make them contest points as well because tank pets are of no use whatsoever.
P.S. Have you even seen the damage richochet does? I mean, come on. The warrior mace autoattacks even outdamage the ranger greatsword autos.
(edited by Zenith.7301)
I disagree. Two outcomes only.
1) screw up Ranger and become super OP
2) screw up Ranger and become super UP
This won’t be balanced, I guarantee it.
I disagree. Two outcomes only.
1) screw up Ranger and become super OP
2) screw up Ranger and become super UPThis won’t be balanced, I guarantee it.
It isn’t balanced already. Pets are kinda garbage.
@OP video, i agree that it is too much power damage for full condi spec. introducing stat scaling would be a huge undertaking, but i think it will ultimately result in more diversity & make the class easier to balance moving forward.
on the one hand, ANet wants us to believe the pet is completely separate from the Ranger; they have their own stats, abilities, no scaling, etc.
on the other hand, all of our power coefficients pay a cost for this pet independence, & that cost DOES scale with our stats. so while our pet is independent of us, we become dependent on the pet for damage. this is why ranger power specs are inherently weak ( on top of the fragility of speccing for power ).
the min/maxed ranger will always be tanky condition damage with a power pet, because condition damage is not affected at all by our relationship with our pet, & the pet’s damage is not affected by us. it’s just how the math works out for ranger.
slightly separate issue, but i agree with taym as well that pet autos are a huge problem. i would advocate a complete removal of pet auto attacks. the pet already takes care of pathing in a game entirely based around area permission. to be rewarded with free damage for doing absolutely nothing is completely ridiculous.
i would suggest 3 things for pets:
a) pet autos replaced by conditional procs. eg. canine will bite when a cripple is applied. moa will peck when a daze is applied. etc. balance the damage accordingly.
b) attack/return to me becomes a toggle on F3.
c) for each pet, remove 1 ability entirely & move the other to F1. eg. for Moa, remove Frenzy & move the AoE heal to F1.
bam, nearly all passive pet play removed from the game with more control to the ranger.
@Zenith, we chuckle now when we see Bear or Moa, but pet utility is really a place where ANet could explore giving Ranger more team support options. in the future a Bear or Moa bunker ranger could be providing powerful utility to the team despite having overall low damage, much like a bunker should.
Pets will have to scale at some point as rangers were already behind in PvE because the pets can’t achieve the 110% crit damage bonus other classes can, and with the introduction of ascended items meaning a 15% difference in stats, the pets will keep falling behind.
You know noone here gives a single kitten to pve right?
well either they make pets scale more with the stats of the ranger or they make them harder to control but one of the both things should happen imo
Why should this happen? Are you telling me a pet is to difficult for you to play against?
Plus if you gave some time to ranger, you would realize pets are a pain to micro. (F1 is NOT micro).
This is not only a PvP issue, its a global one. With upcomming ascended gear, every class get, lets say 20% more damage , rangers and other pet classes will get less, cause half of their damage isnt effected by stats.
The only pet builds, that arent effected by this gear are those condi builds with cats/birds.
well either they make pets scale more with the stats of the ranger or they make them harder to control but one of the both things should happen imo
harder to control? ever tried to use f2 on drake? the chance he is hitting with this attack is at nearly 10% or lower. only in perfect situations.
the same goes for all f2 abilities. u need to think ahead if u wanna use them, cause pet will always first end the actual choosen action and in consideration the activation time with 3 secs its ridiculous on some abilities. aoe fear 3 secs activation? lol, watch war or necro, how high is theyre activation timer for fear?
well either they make pets scale more with the stats of the ranger or they make them harder to control but one of the both things should happen imo
harder to control? ever tried to use f2 on drake? the chance he is hitting with this attack is at nearly 10% or lower. only in perfect situations.
the same goes for all f2 abilities. u need to think ahead if u wanna use them, cause pet will always first end the actual choosen action and in consideration the activation time with 3 secs its ridiculous on some abilities. aoe fear 3 secs activation? lol, watch war or necro, how high is theyre activation timer for fear?
In my opinion, your theory would be fine if the pet didn’t have autoattacks because you can actually watch out for the animation…however there are a million things someone has to pay attention to in order to fight a ranger, and it holds especially true to spirit rangers:
- Trying to position yourself in front of the ranger to avoid bleed stacks, mind you the hitbox in which counts as a person’s side or back is very forgiving. I could strafe around the ranger thinking i’m facing him and just take all the stacks of bleeding from crossfire. It’s a double edged sword because if I don’t strafe, I’m not kiting the pet, which means it’s free dps. If I kite, I will take bleeds.
- Trying to kite the pet while he auto attacks you freely (which is impossible on leveled terrain unless you have swiftness) Even against terrain in which you could LoS and try to pull them away, they literally run right back to you with godlike speed. (This is another issue that should be fixed…if a ranger is running away, his pet should NOT run back to him in a flash…I should be able to chase that pet and kill it)
- Against spirit rangers – have to try to kill spirits and stay out of range of their actives while trying to stay alive from burning and bleeds.
- Finally, trying to actually kill the ranger while doing all of the above.
It’s very hard to watch out for the active pet’s CC when trying to do all of the above…especially since they are already on your kitten auto-attacking you. I probably won’t have a chance to pay attention to a drake about to shoot 7k worth of lightning bolts into my face. You could call it L2P or not, but I think the amount of concentration and awareness when playing against a ranger vs playing as a ranger is skewed – mainly speaking spirit rangers. I have a lot more respect for power rangers.
oh and I’m not talking about warriors because they are a whole other story, but I mean classes/builds that don’t faceroll.
(edited by Amaterasu.6280)
You could call it L2P or not, but I think the amount of concentration and awareness when playing against a ranger vs playing as a ranger is skewed – mainly speaking spirit rangers.
It is skewed, but I don’t think it’s really because of the pet. I think it’s more because of the spirits. They allow the ranger to just become brainless. The high damage f2 ability of the drake is similar to dodging an illusionary duelist or an illusionary berserker in my eyes – even easier though since really anyone just needs to get behind the drake when its chargin’ its lazor; whereas phantasms track the target. When fighting a mesmer, you need to watch out for the stun, the leap, the shatter, and etc it’s similar in that regard.
In all honesty, that drake in the vid should have been glanced at.
(edited by Chicago Jack.5647)
to me the point of the video is not whether the drake has counterplay, b/c it does. the point is a full condi spec dropping 8k power aoe.
but if you nerf drake ( which it already was ), that doesn’t solve the problem, it just hurts all non-condi specs further. scaling is needed.
the other option is fixing power coefficients on all of our weapons to be competitive with other professions, then they can continue to balance pets in a vacuum.
(edited by faeral.1840)
in my opinion sensotix is right, pet dmg should scale with the stats of the player
becouse it doesnt scale specs like bm and spirit ranger are pretty easy to play and are one of the best 1vs1 specs, couse of the condipressure and the powerdmg-pressure through the pet….even if bm/spirit ranger are bunker/condi specs…powerdmg hits between 2k to 6k are achievable….with no points in power/crit/critdmg invested….just becouse of the pet and the stormspirit…..i think this shoudnt be the case
bunker/condi specs shoudnt hit as high as powerdmg glascanons could….to me this isnt right
and becouse the pet stats doesnt scale their is no reason to play a powerranger(unless you enjoy playing powerranger), couse you dont gain anything as a player…..you have less chance of survival and your dps output is not higher compared to the bunker/condi spec (just the powerburst is higher if you land your hits….not the overall dmg)
and i guess, that a powerranger would never win a 1vs1 against a bm, or spiritranger, just becouse those specs can deal a big amount of condidps and powerdps….therefor the pet dmg should scale with the stats from the player, we as players need a reason to play as powerrangers and atm i dont see any…..maybe prove me wrong
but than again, if this change would come to be implemented….everyclas pets should scale with the stats from the player, not just the ranger ones
(edited by livlaender.8790)
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