Guild Wars 2

Greetings,

It is my perception many members of the community believe PvP balancing occurs far too infrequently. This is one factor contributing to an unhealthy PvP community. ANet is constrained to the point where they are cannot push out quality balance changes in a timely fashion that the community desires.

I propose that ANet place the tools in the players’ hands to change the game balance. The way this could be done is via custom arenas (CAs).

How would this work?

CAs would be modified with new screens containing all the knobs to adjust weapon and spell coefficients and durations for all professions. Modifying a default parameter would, by default, turn off progression on the server. This would avoid “hotjoin heroism”. An icon could be added to each CA that would allow people to view the MOTD text of the CA as well as the list of spell coefficients. Modified parameters could be highlighted via some color.

What would this do?

Primarily, this could effectively result in achieving PvP balance via crowdsourcing. Various players could try tweaking different parameters and seeing how the game changes. Groups such as ESL could gather together top players and create a proposed “balance template” they could use for tournaments. Such an effort could result in a ‘defacto standard’ for tPvP gameplay.

Secondarily, we could see more ‘fun’ servers where some parameters are set to nonsensical values that result in silly, but, fun, games. If some of you remember Team Fortress crowbar servers, you can get the idea of the kind of things that could evolve.

How Would ANet Benefit?

Simply put: More players for less work. Better balance would most likely result in more people playing the game. Additionally ‘fun’ variants could result in more people playing the game. Since many hard-core players really enjoy theorycrafting, this could get many players very excited and invested in trying to make the PvP balance better.
In terms of balancing, this simplifies the job for ANet. They can use the “balance specs” that are most frequently used and/or being used in tournaments and incorporate all, or parts of, that spec into the default builds. It would simplify and expedite the balancing process. This could literally result in balance updates coming out every 2 weeks. I think we could very quickly converge upon a balanced solution.

Potential Issues

Mechanics. It may not be feasible with the current game engine to override coefficients and durations in a CA. It would depend on if/how these parameters are loaded/accessed from data stores, or hard-coded.
Build schisming could be a very real issue, where two “leading” groups evolve with very different balance specs and refuse to compromise or kowtow. This could be detrimental to the community. It would be incumbent upon ArenaNet to provide feedback and guidance periodically to minimize this.

Monetization

CA’s cost money to open and to maintain. I think it’s something like 1 token per day. Monetizing this is a no-brainer. Serious players will all have their own custom arenas. However, the real revenue would come from the ‘fun’ variants all the players will come up with.

This seems like a fun idea to me. It will help ArenaNet in gathering balance information, and allow the players to help in a mutually fun, and beneficial way.

+1

I think so. I know the first thing I would do is create a new custom arena where all the coefficients for all spells and all weapon damage are set to 0.

Except for Guardian mace 1, which would deal 100000 damage.

I am a little surprised people have not locked onto this idea. It seems to offer a path to balance that many competitive players have been asking for. At the same time, it gets the theorycrafting groups really going.

Think about the kinds of problems this game has had over the past year…

Dhuumfire? No problem. Fix in an hour.
Hambow? Easy. HS and hammer damage fixed in a few hours.
Decap engine? BAM! AR nerf in minutes.
Don’t like Diamond Skin? No problem – fixed in minutes.

Literally the balance problems that have plagued this game, could be solved in mere hours as opposed to years.

I approve of this, let us “lock onto it”.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Greetings,

It is my perception many members of the community believe PvP balancing occurs far too infrequently. This is one factor contributing to an unhealthy PvP community. It is clear ANet is talent-constrained to the point where they are incapable of pushing quality balance changes in a timely fashion.

I propose that ANet place the tools in the players’ hands to change the game balance. The way this could be done is via custom arenas (CAs).

How would this work?

CAs would be modified with new screens containing all the knobs to adjust weapon and spell coefficients and durations for all professions. Modifying a default parameter would, by default, turn off progression on the server. This would avoid “hotjoin heroism”. An icon could be added to each CA that would allow people to view the MOTD text of the CA as well as the list of spell coefficients. Modified parameters could be highlighted via some color.

What would this do?

Primarily, this could effectively result in achieving PvP balance via crowdsourcing. Various players could try tweaking different parameters and seeing how the game changes. Groups such as ESL could gather together top players and create a proposed “balance template” they could use for tournaments. Such an effort could result in a ‘defacto standard’ for tPvP gameplay.

Secondarily, we could see more ‘fun’ servers where some parameters are set to nonsensical values that result in silly, but, fun, games. If some of you remember Team Fortress crowbar servers, you can get the idea of the kind of things that could evolve.

How Would ANet Benefit?

Simply put: More players for less work. Better balance would most likely result in more people playing the game. Additionally ‘fun’ variants could result in more people playing the game. Since many hard-core players really enjoy theorycrafting, this could get many players very excited and invested in trying to make the PvP balance better.
In terms of balancing, this simplifies the job for ANet. They can use the “balance specs” that are most frequently used and/or being used in tournaments and incorporate all, or parts of, that spec into the default builds. It would simplify and expedite the balancing process. This could literally result in balance updates coming out every 2 weeks. I think we could very quickly converge upon a balanced solution.

Potential Issues

Mechanics. It may not be feasible with the current game engine to override coefficients and durations in a CA. It would depend on if/how these parameters are loaded/accessed from data stores, or hard-coded.
Build schisming could be a very real issue, where two “leading” groups evolve with very different balance specs and refuse to compromise or kowtow. This could be detrimental to the community. It would be incumbent upon ArenaNet to provide feedback and guidance periodically to minimize this.

Should get a bonus too… I mean it can’t all be free from our end.

+1!
after 6 months hammer warriors can still crit for 6-7k
knock hammer damage down by atleast 30% on all hammer skills,
its a CC weapon with its traits in a tank set,
it shouldn’t be hitting for glass cannon damage.

This is actually quite brilliant! I like it. +1

Id rather let the devs balance instead of the community. Just fix the ultra broken stuff that everybody knows with no doubt its broken and for the minor things dont listen to the QQ.

So instead of working on balance changes, you want them to work on something that lets someone else do balance changes for them? It’s not going to happen. It’d be cool, but it just won’t happen. They’d have to go through every single skill in the game and create these tweaks and nobs, create the UI for this and change CAs to allow for this functionality. There’s so much involved in this change.

this is a perfect idea for custom arenas fun.

Not sure if its feasible though and how it will affect the code OR provide means for hackers to alter it. Evan is the coding genius around here, he could comment on that.

Leaving balancing to players is most of the time not a good idea.
Sure the devs can be biased as well, but not even close to on the same level as the players.

Not to mention the whole kneejerk reaction we see on these forums for every single little thing changed. Those kind of people shouldn’t make decisions.

lordkrall.7241:

Leaving balancing to players is most of the time not a good idea.
Sure the devs can be biased as well, but not even close to on the same level as the players.

Not to mention the whole kneejerk reaction we see on these forums for every single little thing changed. Those kind of people shouldn’t make decisions.

This is why they are changes for their own custom arena, and not to the game.

Thedenofsin.7340:

a t s e.9614:

Id rather let the devs balance instead of the community. Just fix the ultra broken stuff that everybody knows with no doubt its broken and for the minor things dont listen to the QQ.

The problem is that will never happen. They don’t pay enough attention to high end pvp. They don’t have the talent available to make timely changes. Additionally, when they do make balance changes, they end up making abominations like Dhuumfire necromancers and hambow warriors.
And with Hambow Hugh working on balance, I doubt we will ever see good balance.

I’d rather see the community balance the game.

Conversely, I would say you are handing constructive criticism poorly and making it personal. I know for me, when someone makes personal statements, I tune out the rest of the criticism. If someone says something constructively like, “Hey, what if we did this? Would this work better?” I am more open to what they are saying. I would try wording it differently, like leaving out statements like the one where you say, “They don’t have the talent available to make timely changes.” or calling Hugh, “Hambow Hugh”. That stuff should just be deleted. It’s comes off as petty and malicious.

Thedenofsin.7340:

a t s e.9614:

Id rather let the devs balance instead of the community. Just fix the ultra broken stuff that everybody knows with no doubt its broken and for the minor things dont listen to the QQ.

The problem is that will never happen. They don’t pay enough attention to high end pvp. They don’t have the talent available to make timely changes. Additionally, when they do make balance changes, they end up making abominations like Dhuumfire necromancers and hambow warriors.
And with Hambow Hugh working on balance, I doubt we will ever see good balance.

I’d rather see the community balance the game.

Conversely, I would say you are handing constructive criticism poorly and making it personal. I know for me, when someone makes personal statements, I tune out the rest of the criticism. If someone says something constructively like, “Hey, what if we did this? Would this work better?” I am more open to what they are saying. I would try wording it differently, like leaving out statements like the one where you say, “They don’t have the talent available to make timely changes.” or calling Hugh, “Hambow Hugh”. That stuff should just be deleted. It’s comes off as petty and malicious.

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

This is why they are changes for their own custom arena, and not to the game.

And thus it would be more or less pointless as a method of balancing the game, which I assumed was the whole point of the OP.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

So instead of working on balance changes, you want them to work on something that lets someone else do balance changes for them? It’s not going to happen. It’d be cool, but it just won’t happen. They’d have to go through every single skill in the game and create these tweaks and nobs, create the UI for this and change CAs to allow for this functionality. There’s so much involved in this change.

A UI wouldn’t even be strictly necessary. CAs could load a user-side config file, for example. That being said, creating a couple of screens with sliders or entry boxes would not be too hard.

Keep in mind those knobs exist internally, either as a set of parameters in database tables, lines in an input file, or constants in code. I’ve coded many simulations in my day and I always ensure that I add knobs to the code for every equation that may need adjusting. For the stuff I do, it’s typically just a massive config file.

The issue would be tied to what thread performs the damage computations and if that thread is spawned 1 to 1 with the thread that manages CAs.

lordkrall.7241:

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

This is why they are changes for their own custom arena, and not to the game.

And thus it would be more or less pointless as a method of balancing the game, which I assumed was the whole point of the OP.

PvP community tournaments are hosted in custom arenas.

This provides pathways for the competitive crowd to have a niche balanced scenario, and the more casual crowd have a fun way to mess around in custom arenas, example:

Only Hammer guardian weapon skills deal damage (so high that it oneshots- 100k dmg): while the rest deal 0, can you imagine the outplays? 1 guy dodges the auto backwards, only to riposte back with hammer #2 (small jump), which in turns makes the other guy need to dodge aswell and it goes on and on until 1 guy makes a mistake. This is sounding pretty fun to me.

Hell, I would buy my own custom arena if this was implemented, as Im sure a lot of you would.

Problem is by this way you can only do number tweaking, you can’t redesign anything.

I would advise a name change for this thread as the title is too ambiguous: Let us customize more in the Custom Arenas

redslion.9675:

Problem is by this way you can only do number tweaking, you can’t redesign anything.

This is true. Redesign would still fall in the domain of the developers.

However, number tweaks could still go a long way. If a skill is overpowered, number tweaks could tone it down (increased cool down, initiative cost, etc) until it’s been properly redesigned.

Iason Evan.3806:

Thedenofsin.7340:

a t s e.9614:

Id rather let the devs balance instead of the community. Just fix the ultra broken stuff that everybody knows with no doubt its broken and for the minor things dont listen to the QQ.

The problem is that will never happen. They don’t pay enough attention to high end pvp. They don’t have the talent available to make timely changes. Additionally, when they do make balance changes, they end up making abominations like Dhuumfire necromancers and hambow warriors.
And with Hambow Hugh working on balance, I doubt we will ever see good balance.

I’d rather see the community balance the game.

Conversely, I would say you are handing constructive criticism poorly and making it personal. I know for me, when someone makes personal statements, I tune out the rest of the criticism. If someone says something constructively like, “Hey, what if we did this? Would this work better?” I am more open to what they are saying. I would try wording it differently, like leaving out statements like the one where you say, “They don’t have the talent available to make timely changes.” or calling Hugh, “Hambow Hugh”. That stuff should just be deleted. It’s comes off as petty and malicious.

If you would like to attack how I handle criticism, that is fine. However, I’d argue it is better handled offline, as it is not germane to the topic at hand. Posting it the way you did is borderline trolling.

Let’s try to keep this on topic. Thank you.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Iason Evan.3806:

Thedenofsin.7340:

a t s e.9614:

Id rather let the devs balance instead of the community. Just fix the ultra broken stuff that everybody knows with no doubt its broken and for the minor things dont listen to the QQ.

The problem is that will never happen. They don’t pay enough attention to high end pvp. They don’t have the talent available to make timely changes. Additionally, when they do make balance changes, they end up making abominations like Dhuumfire necromancers and hambow warriors.
And with Hambow Hugh working on balance, I doubt we will ever see good balance.

I’d rather see the community balance the game.

Conversely, I would say you are handing constructive criticism poorly and making it personal. I know for me, when someone makes personal statements, I tune out the rest of the criticism. If someone says something constructively like, “Hey, what if we did this? Would this work better?” I am more open to what they are saying. I would try wording it differently, like leaving out statements like the one where you say, “They don’t have the talent available to make timely changes.” or calling Hugh, “Hambow Hugh”. That stuff should just be deleted. It’s comes off as petty and malicious.

If you would like to attack how I handle criticism, that is fine. However, I’d argue it is better handled offline, as it is not germane to the topic at hand. Posting it the way you did is borderline trolling.

Let’s try to keep this on topic. Thank you.

I say that because I like your idea. It’s a solid one. The name calling and trite statements about talent? Not so much. Would be a shame to have a good idea get totally ignored because of wording and attitude.

lordkrall.7241:

Leaving balancing to players is most of the time not a good idea.
Sure the devs can be biased as well, but not even close to on the same level as the players.

Not to mention the whole kneejerk reaction we see on these forums for every single little thing changed. Those kind of people shouldn’t make decisions.

The idea would be to let anyone make their custom arena any way they want. If they want to make a knee jerk change, it would be their prerogative. It woulnt mean that would make it into an official build.

Furthermore, I believe high end players have a good grasp on what the game balance should be like, and those people would be more likely to work together toward a set of balanced changes.

Thedenofsin.7340:

redslion.9675:

Problem is by this way you can only do number tweaking, you can’t redesign anything.

This is true. Redesign would still fall in the domain of the developers.

However, number tweaks could still go a long way. If a skill is overpowered, number tweaks could tone it down (increased cool down, initiative cost, etc) until it’s been properly redesigned.

Well, it is also true that you can “redesign” by promoting different skills.

Example: it is said that healing signet should be redesignet, because it is either too strong or useless, and the warrior class in general is either useless or easymode. You could try to change that by giving Healing Surge a really big amount of healing so that you reward adrenaline management.

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

lordkrall.7241:

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

This is why they are changes for their own custom arena, and not to the game.

And thus it would be more or less pointless as a method of balancing the game, which I assumed was the whole point of the OP.

PvP community tournaments are hosted in custom arenas.

This provides pathways for the competitive crowd to have a niche balanced scenario, and the more casual crowd have a fun way to mess around in custom arenas, example:

Only Hammer guardian weapon skills deal damage (so high that it oneshots- 100k dmg): while the rest deal 0, can you imagine the outplays? 1 guy dodges the auto backwards, only to riposte back with hammer #2 (small jump), which in turns makes the other guy need to dodge aswell and it goes on and on until 1 guy makes a mistake. This is sounding pretty fun to me.

Hell, I would buy my own custom arena if this was implemented, as Im sure a lot of you would.

That actually sounds like a lot of fun! That would be an arena I’d put on my favorites list.

You could make real man-mode CA’s, where all healing is turned off and only melee auto-attacks do damage.

Someone could make a CA where they fix all the new Healing Skills that currently aren’t useful. Or perhaps create a CA where you experiment on tweaking all the underused weapon sets.

There’s lots of possibilities. Ultimately I think we’d have more kinds of ‘fun’ arenas and have a more balanced game overall.

Another thought that came to mind is the new team death match arena would also greatly benefit from this approach.

Upboated.
You could generalize the idea and give the players almost total control over most parameters, like letting them deactivate cap points or other map features.
Of course building the tools would require a certain effort from the devs. But ANet is experienced with outsourcing (since they apparently can’t do it in-house) so please hire a PvP studio to create the editor.

This would be REALLY fun to make mini-games. I bet in a month there would be so many variations. Like Tag where all damage is reduced to 0 but the person “It” is a Guardian locked into staff with only the use of the skill Orb of Light. That would instantly kill the first target struck. Then, when killed THEY would become the Guardian.

Tag would be a blast.

How about a variant on the TFC game, ‘protect the VIP’. However, instead of a president, it’s a thief. All thief damaging output is reduced to 0. Everyone else has their usual set of skills and abilities.

One team gets the thief, the remaining players are all the “secret service”. The other team are the terrorists. Kill the VIP and the terrorists win. Kill the terrorists and the secret service wins.

Thedenofsin.7340:

How about a variant on the TFC game, ‘protect the president’. However, instead of a president, it’s a thief. All thief damaging output is reduced to 0. Everyone else has their usual set of skills and abilities.

One team gets the thief, the remaining players are all the “secret service”. The other team are the terrorists. Kill the president and the terrorists win. Kill the terrorists and the secret service wins.

See? Game idea’s like this would crop up. I wouldn’t care if it had no rewards, it would just simply be bloody fun!

This idea needs more attention