Guild Wars 2

So does thief get anti class mechanics?

All I heard about is how Stealth is the Thief class mechanic (Even though half the classes get it). So now comes the expansion, several classes are getting skills that AOE reveal…..and then keep you from re-entering stealth.

So is Thief’s steal going to shut down other class mechanics? When I steal on a Warrior will it empty their End and keep them from getting more? When I steal on a Mesmer will it instantly destroy all their clones and keep them from making more for 8 seconds? When I steal from a Ranger will it take their pet off the map for 8 seconds?

I could do all the other classes…but you get the point. And for those of you that will say, “Stealth is only part of the Thief mechanics, the out of stealth skills, (Backstab), are the other one”, this argument doesn’t hold up. If I can’t enter stealth they can’t be used.

I understand that they are giving Thief more dodges to try and survive even while not in stealth….but why do we have to lose a mechanic to gain a very simple one (1 Dodge), while other classes are keeping ALL their old class mechanics, and receiving much better new ones, some even getting new forms (Celestial, Reaper ect….).

Stealth isn’t the Thief mechanic. It just has unique ways of utilizing it as a perk to a build type. Stealth is no more a Thief mechanic than Necromancers are a Pet class. Steal is your global class mechanic, something you have no matter how you build.

Also, when you evade, you slow endurance generation. When you evade, you kill Life Force generation. Any AOE kills clones. Chill kills the Elementalist “mechanic”.

Stop the pity party and just stop relying on hiding so much, or play something else. You have ridiculous mobility, utilize it. Even if thief might have it rough in close quarters, they have advantages over any other class, and there’s no reason stealth alone can’t have counters. They could bump up standard thief defenses, but requiring no hard-hitting counter to stealth is just silly.

Also, there’s still very little reveal that you will actually see in PvP, the most you will see it is on Herald Revenants. If they swap to dragon and you see a big kitten dragon head with blue eyes, dodge roll. You won’t get revealed. Good luck!

ronpierce.2760:

Stealth isn’t the Thief mechanic. It just has unique ways of utilizing it as a perk to a build type. Stealth is no more a Thief mechanic than Necromancers are a Pet class. Steal is your global class mechanic, something you have no matter how you build.

Also, when you evade, you slow endurance generation. When you evade, you kill Life Force generation. Any AOE kills clones. Chill kills the Elementalist “mechanic”.

Stop the pity party and just stop relying on hiding so much, or play something else. You have ridiculous mobility, utilize it. Even if thief might have it rough in close quarters, they have advantages over any other class, and there’s no reason stealth alone can’t have counters. They could bump up standard thief defenses, but requiring no hard-hitting counter to stealth is just silly.

Also, there’s still very little reveal that you will actually see in PvP, the most you will see it is on Herald Revenants. If they swap to dragon and you see a big kitten dragon head with blue eyes, dodge roll. You won’t get revealed. Good luck!

Scrappers can get 6 second reveal on a 20 second cooldown in 900 range, probably going to be meta to change to that elite if you see a Thief in game.

What I don’t like is how Scrappers seems to be master of stealth. They have a ton of stealth while also being the best at revealing.

I honestly think the only stealth worth running is going to be HiS for the Condi Removals.

A scrapper and a Rev on a team will make it almost impossible to stealth in the heat of battle with a 900 AOE.

Technically speaking, haven’t Thieves classically shut everyone out of their skills for a really, really long time by their classic OP 1 shot from stealth bursts? I seem to remember thousands upon thousands of threads detailing this very thing over the years.

Huh, funny that.

glaphen.5230:

Scrappers can get 6 second reveal on a 20 second cooldown in 900 range, probably going to be meta to change to that elite if you see a Thief in game.

Thief was never a difficult matchup for engis anyway, so I doubt they would give up Supply Drop or Mortar Kit to win harder against a class that they already are considered counters for.

Edit: Or even Elixir X to shut down Rampage/Lich Form

@ronpierce That’s a bad comparison between thief and necro, stealth attacks are a thief mechanic and stealth is part of thief. Bad comparisons with ele,mesmer,necro. Do you want a good example?

For the next 6 sec you are unable to gain LF,swap attunements(tempest lol),unable to create illusions,unable to gain adrenaline etc. The only reason more reveal is because they are adding stealth to other classes and more stealth to WvW they are the ones that made PU about stealth instead of boons. It’s all excuses just to nerf thief while nerfing it.

Sagat.3285:

Do you want a good example?

For the next 6 sec you are unable to gain LF,swap attunements(tempest lol),unable to create illusions,unable to gain adrenaline etc.

Did I miss a recent update to the game which made it so that any given Thief cannot steal or activate weapon skills while being revealed? Because that’s your direct comparison.

Velimere.7685:

Sagat.3285:

Do you want a good example?

For the next 6 sec you are unable to gain LF,swap attunements(tempest lol),unable to create illusions,unable to gain adrenaline etc.

Did I miss a recent update to the game which made it so that any given Thief cannot steal or activate weapon skills while being revealed? Because that’s your direct comparison.

Also the actual thief mechanic is initiative. It is also the reason thief is necessary in any team and lacking for 1v1 fight. A initiative rework could do wonders to the thief in any gamemode.

When you steal on a thief you are stealing something that is really really helpful to you in the 1v1 match up. Literally every class you steal from will give you something amazing. Stop your crying about reveals because in order for you to get revealed you need to be around these attacks and being the most mobile class in the game it shouldn’t be too hard to escape death, since that is what thieves do.

One of my nigh uncounterable mechanics is going to get more counter play. Please help! Thief has only been top tier in every game mode since the release of the game. It is obviously underpowered!

Jelzouki.4128:

When you steal on a thief you are stealing something that is really really helpful to you in the 1v1 match up. Literally every class you steal from will give you something amazing. Stop your crying about reveals because in order for you to get revealed you need to be around these attacks and being the most mobile class in the game it shouldn’t be too hard to escape death, since that is what thieves do.

HOW THE F THROW GUNK IS HELPFUL?
To get to stealth thef needs to eat up initiative, if you reveal him right after its GG for thef, nothing will save him cuz he wont have enough ini for infiltrator arrow. Or you suggest that for every 20 sec cd i should use my 50 sec cd stun break shadowstep that is only way to not get killed as thief, and if you have it on cd your basicly dead with next cc?
Stealth IS thief mechanics, IT is the way of thief to deal dmg, not reposition like other classes. If you can deny thief dmg with 1 button, i agree that thief should be able to deny your strong attacks with 1 button.

And:
Its not like only thief has 1 whole traitline based only on stealth. other classes have like 1/2 traits for stealth so 1 reveal will just block them. But blocking 1/3 of someone build is just not fair.

Velimere.7685:

Sagat.3285:

Do you want a good example?

For the next 6 sec you are unable to gain LF,swap attunements(tempest lol),unable to create illusions,unable to gain adrenaline etc.

Did I miss a recent update to the game which made it so that any given Thief cannot steal or activate weapon skills while being revealed? Because that’s your direct comparison.

Not at all that would be preventing shatters not illusuons creation which is possible already through interrupts PB being a good example. Dual skills and stealth attacks may not be dominant such as initiative but they are still class mechanics. If reveal was permanently applied everywhere literally no one would care except thieves, that’s a stretch because that’s the mentality they are showing right now especially with other classes getting stealth as extra and only d/p managed to survive.

I don’t see why thief shouldn’t have counter play to some of its mechanics, it already has initiative so the weapon skills are not affected by chill. Then it has steal which is an instant cast and stealth. Why should stealth not have counterplay? Literally every class has counter play to its mechanics.
You can avoid attacks to slow down adrenaline and life force generation or you cc the necro when he/she enters death shroud which forces him/her to either take the full duration cc or leave death shroud to stunbreak and not have shroud available for 10seconds (7 if traited but that means giving up soulmarks), you can destroy phantasms or put chill or weakness on the mesmer to slow down clone generation, you can chill elementalists to slow down their attunement swaps etc.

And the thief hate continues.

Imagine for one instance a mechanic negating an entire line of your build while negating all your defense. That is what these reveals are doing.

Now imagine you try to spec in the other defensive line only to realize it was nerfed to the ground and is not viable.

Finally you take a look at your new elite spec which is supposed to be a defensive trait and save the mutha kittenin day…..Only you then realize it’s not that good.

That’s thief right now. Can great players make it work? Yes they can, but only b/c they are great players. The fact remains if you lose 1v1 to a thief in today’s game then the skill level of that thief is leaps and bounds above yours. I’d compare it to an Professional football team vs your local highschool football team.

T raw.4658:

And the thief hate continues.

Imagine for one instance a mechanic negating an entire line of your build while negating all your defense. That is what these reveals are doing.

Now imagine you try to spec in the other defensive line only to realize it was nerfed to the ground and is not viable.

Finally you take a look at your new elite spec which is supposed to be a defensive trait and save the mutha kittenin day…..Only you then realize it’s not that good.

That’s thief right now. Can great players make it work? Yes they can, but only b/c they are great players. The fact remains if you lose 1v1 to a thief in today’s game then the skill level of that thief is leaps and bounds above yours. I’d compare it to an Professional football team vs your local highschool football team.

AOE fields and minion master? Moa and minion master.

Also, people shouldn’t pretend you can’t counter play the reveal counter play. They are dodgable for the most part. Take a breath and just try to learn how to deal with it before jumping to doomsday is all I’m saying. Reveal as a limited mechanic counter is not innately wrong. Learn the telegraphs and prosper.

Like I said, thief has issues, protecting its stealth is not really one of them. Not to mention, this would be much less of an issue if Shadow Arts was designed to be more active rather than passive. That said, passive things deserve to have direct counters.

Hmm:
AoE and cleaves in general is aids for clones. And it is abundant.
A single condition is messing up attunement-swapping.
Mobility and porting is messing up a class that lacks mobility.
The list goes on.

Instead of feeling victimised all the time, perhaps just wait a second and see if Daredevil doesn’t provide the 1vs1 possibilities without stealth-spam everyone (or at least a great deal) has sought. Perhaps the sky isn’t falling. Just hold your breath for a second – it isn’t like you have been out of the meta for 3 years or something. Stealth is a horrible mechanic anyway (imo) – the guessing-game is just a horrible counter to anything. Mind you: It doesn’t matter if engines get stealth: There will still be counters for stealth – even the very same class ironically.

It is getting old really fast to try to argue with people who wear earplugs and scream at the same time.

Alekt.5803:

What I don’t like is how Scrappers seems to be master of stealth. They have a ton of stealth while also being the best at revealing.

might wanna learn about what you talk about before doing so

the stealth gyro doesnt give stealth to allies randomly for 15 seconds it is still a farcry of what shadow refuge is

the sneak gyro functions as a mobile stealth field wich you can kill , the gyro is target able as such as soon gyro expires or gets killed = no stealth and it is counterable by said other reveal skills , players have to be under the gyro to begin with so you will Always know where they are if they went invisible right under the floating gyro

if you cant survive 6 seconds revealed then you werent meant to play thief specially with the tons of evades and even more now with the new spec that is nothing but pure evades even evades while hitting

Sagat.3285:

Velimere.7685:

Sagat.3285:

Do you want a good example?

For the next 6 sec you are unable to gain LF,swap attunements(tempest lol),unable to create illusions,unable to gain adrenaline etc.

Did I miss a recent update to the game which made it so that any given Thief cannot steal or activate weapon skills while being revealed? Because that’s your direct comparison.

Not at all…

Life force, illusions, and adrenaline are generated with weapon and utility skills or because of traits. Attunement swapping is a class mechanic (read: F1, etc). Stealth is not the class mechanic of the Thief… stealing is.

My god, when will these embarassing self-victimizing thief posts/threads finally stop. Most people agree that thief needs help in some aspects (including me), but threads like these are just nonsense. As other players already pointed out, every class has counterplay to its class mechanics, stop acting like a special snowflake, cause you’re not. That has nothing to do with “thief hate”, it’s called being objective.

Yes, you are the epitome of skill when you manage to kill another class 1v1 on thief. No other explanation, because thief is lacking in every aspect of everything. It is the red-headed stepchild of arenanet, everyone hates you (including arenanet, the players and the Los Angeles Lakers) and there’s a secret society operating in the underground (thief elimination and removal squad, or T.E.A.R.S) with the one and only goal to destroy the thief class completely. And they succeeded! Twice!

That’s what you wanted to hear, right? There you go.

On a more serious note: Guys, we understand. Almost every class has had a state of near uselessness, and most players needed something to vent those frustrations. But you know what never helped? Hyperboling. On everything. It might be tradition in MMO forums, but it never really helped implementing meaningful and thoughtful changes. Rather the opposite. That goes for both directions, buffs and nerfs.

Oh, and no. Stealth is not a thief class-mechanic. You kinda got that wrong.
Initiative, Steal and Stealth attacks are. And just like you can prevent a Mesmer from shattering by AoEing all clones, or prepare to block/invul/evade the Warriors highly telegraphed Burst skills, you can prevent a thief from backstabbing if you’re on the right class with the right traits/skills equipped with applying reveal. Most classes can’t even reveal, even after the expansion.

Also, I am a Mesmer main and long-time member of T.E.A.R.S.

The problem is not that there is too much reveal, the problem is we have no decent general purpose solution to conquest and roaming that does not make heavy use of stealth. Stealth is our damage mitigation, our condi cleanse, and our burst at the same time. In that respect, it -can- be called a class mechanic, because our class depends on it for many aspects of general combat.

Giving other classes means to break all of that at once is a kitten shame, sure, but the bigger shame is that we don’t have a decent alternative.

Or, more simply put:

“Experts at stealth and surprise-

Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which can make them very hard to hit."

^ Is a lie.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

The problem is not that there is too much reveal, the problem is we have no decent general purpose solution to conquest and roaming that does not make heavy use of stealth. Stealth is our damage mitigation, our condi cleanse, and our burst at the same time. In that respect, it -can- be called a class mechanic, because our class depends on it for many aspects of general combat.

Giving other classes means to break all of that at once is a kitten shame, sure, but the bigger shame is that we don’t have a decent alternative.

Or, more simply put:

“Experts at stealth and surprise-

Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which can make them very hard to hit."

^ Is a lie.

I never understood why they rolled all the sustain and condition removal into the SA line. That just seems like such a dumb design decision.

TheLastNobody.8319:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

The problem is not that there is too much reveal, the problem is we have no decent general purpose solution to conquest and roaming that does not make heavy use of stealth. Stealth is our damage mitigation, our condi cleanse, and our burst at the same time. In that respect, it -can- be called a class mechanic, because our class depends on it for many aspects of general combat.

Giving other classes means to break all of that at once is a kitten shame, sure, but the bigger shame is that we don’t have a decent alternative.

Or, more simply put:

“Experts at stealth and surprise-

Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which can make them very hard to hit."

^ Is a lie.

I never understood why they rolled all the sustain and condition removal into the SA line. That just seems like such a dumb design decision.

Yes it is. And that’s why its so painful when we just see

“oh yeah this class can reveal now”

“oh yeah heres a reveal for you too”

“Oh sup, taunt makes thieves break their own stealth”

And the like, because anyone running SA knows that if they want to do meaningful damage, getting touched by any of those means a loss, because they are stripped of -all- defenses minus the stun break they may have saved. Nobody wants to run Acrobatics because it just isnt up to par with what SA provides, even with reveal as big a problem as it is.

I don’t see why people are insisting we just sit back and be happy with this because mobility. That just seems like an almost catatonic coercion to be content with being target practice. And it isnt like we’re forced to play thieves either. I can roll warrior or anything else at any point if I just wanted to win. Thieves are -fun- for most of the people complaining, which is why we bother.

Right now, it isnt fun.

ronpierce.2760:

T raw.4658:

And the thief hate continues.

Imagine for one instance a mechanic negating an entire line of your build while negating all your defense. That is what these reveals are doing.

Now imagine you try to spec in the other defensive line only to realize it was nerfed to the ground and is not viable.

Finally you take a look at your new elite spec which is supposed to be a defensive trait and save the mutha kittenin day…..Only you then realize it’s not that good.

That’s thief right now. Can great players make it work? Yes they can, but only b/c they are great players. The fact remains if you lose 1v1 to a thief in today’s game then the skill level of that thief is leaps and bounds above yours. I’d compare it to an Professional football team vs your local highschool football team.

AOE fields and minion master? Moa and minion master.

Also, people shouldn’t pretend you can’t counter play the reveal counter play. They are dodgable for the most part. Take a breath and just try to learn how to deal with it before jumping to doomsday is all I’m saying. Reveal as a limited mechanic counter is not innately wrong. Learn the telegraphs and prosper.

Like I said, thief has issues, protecting its stealth is not really one of them. Not to mention, this would be much less of an issue if Shadow Arts was designed to be more active rather than passive. That said, passive things deserve to have direct counters.

Don’t pretend you know what you are talking about. They are not dodgable for the most part.

Sic Em – Insta cast
Analyse – Insta cast
Lock On – On hit meaning you can dodge as many times as you want but SOL on hit.

Come back when you learn the state of thief.

Thanks Kbye.

ronpierce.2760:

T raw.4658:

And the thief hate continues.

Imagine for one instance a mechanic negating an entire line of your build while negating all your defense. That is what these reveals are doing.

Now imagine you try to spec in the other defensive line only to realize it was nerfed to the ground and is not viable.

Finally you take a look at your new elite spec which is supposed to be a defensive trait and save the mutha kittenin day…..Only you then realize it’s not that good.

That’s thief right now. Can great players make it work? Yes they can, but only b/c they are great players. The fact remains if you lose 1v1 to a thief in today’s game then the skill level of that thief is leaps and bounds above yours. I’d compare it to an Professional football team vs your local highschool football team.

AOE fields and minion master? Moa and minion master.

Also, people shouldn’t pretend you can’t counter play the reveal counter play. They are dodgable for the most part. Take a breath and just try to learn how to deal with it before jumping to doomsday is all I’m saying. Reveal as a limited mechanic counter is not innately wrong. Learn the telegraphs and prosper.

Like I said, thief has issues, protecting its stealth is not really one of them. Not to mention, this would be much less of an issue if Shadow Arts was designed to be more active rather than passive. That said, passive things deserve to have direct counters.

You haven’t rolled a thief yet huh?

Currently the reveals are instant 1200 range casts that are not “for the most part dodgable”. The engi trait lock on isn’t a 1 time skill but a spam the nades until you hit

I’m glad you’ve taken up this crusade against current stealth mechanics for thieves. You are quite,the expert on the,subject given that you’ve admitted to not playing thief.

Here’s food for thought. I propose steal removes all built up LF. If you are in DS when you get hit with steal then you are forced out due to running out of LF. Perfectly balanced and on par with reveal changes being made

ronpierce.2760:

They are dodgable for the most part.

Learn the telegraphs and prosper.

Yeah, I’m gonna have to call you on this too, cause it’s a lie.

Not only are they untelegraphed, but you cannot dodge them in the case of Lock on and Sic’em.

They are quite literally “press button, nerf thief.”

T raw.4658:

ronpierce.2760:

T raw.4658:

And the thief hate continues.

Imagine for one instance a mechanic negating an entire line of your build while negating all your defense. That is what these reveals are doing.

Now imagine you try to spec in the other defensive line only to realize it was nerfed to the ground and is not viable.

Finally you take a look at your new elite spec which is supposed to be a defensive trait and save the mutha kittenin day…..Only you then realize it’s not that good.

That’s thief right now. Can great players make it work? Yes they can, but only b/c they are great players. The fact remains if you lose 1v1 to a thief in today’s game then the skill level of that thief is leaps and bounds above yours. I’d compare it to an Professional football team vs your local highschool football team.

AOE fields and minion master? Moa and minion master.

Also, people shouldn’t pretend you can’t counter play the reveal counter play. They are dodgable for the most part. Take a breath and just try to learn how to deal with it before jumping to doomsday is all I’m saying. Reveal as a limited mechanic counter is not innately wrong. Learn the telegraphs and prosper.

Like I said, thief has issues, protecting its stealth is not really one of them. Not to mention, this would be much less of an issue if Shadow Arts was designed to be more active rather than passive. That said, passive things deserve to have direct counters.

You haven’t rolled a thief yet huh?

Currently the reveals are instant 1200 range casts that are not “for the most part dodgable”. The engi trait lock on isn’t a 1 time skill but a spam the nades until you hit

I’m glad you’ve taken up this crusade against current stealth mechanics for thieves. You are quite,the expert on the,subject given that you’ve admitted to not playing thief.

Here’s food for thought. I propose steal removes all built up LF. If you are in DS when you get hit with steal then you are forced out due to running out of LF. Perfectly balanced and on par with reveal changes being made

That’s not far enough. It needs to be a hard counter. How about, “You cannot enter DS for 6 seconds. If currently in DS, you will lose DS form. You will not gain LF for 6 secs.”

My counter to your respond would be stop relying on DS just deal with it.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

ronpierce.2760:

They are dodgable for the most part.

Learn the telegraphs and prosper.

Yeah, I’m gonna have to call you on this too, cause it’s a lie.

Not only are most of them untelegraphed, but you cannot dodge them in the case of Lock on and Sic’em.

They are literally spoon-fed solutions to the thief class.

As of right now, none of them are telegraghed as they are insta cast. But you know, forum warriors know more than we do.

Gabriell.4856:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

ronpierce.2760:

They are dodgable for the most part.

Learn the telegraphs and prosper.

Yeah, I’m gonna have to call you on this too, cause it’s a lie.

Not only are most of them untelegraphed, but you cannot dodge them in the case of Lock on and Sic’em.

They are literally spoon-fed solutions to the thief class.

As of right now, none of them are telegraghed as they are insta cast. But you know, forum warriors know more than we do.

Caught that and edited, did a little homework in the case of detection pulse.

Gabriell.4856:

T raw.4658:

ronpierce.2760:

T raw.4658:

And the thief hate continues.

Imagine for one instance a mechanic negating an entire line of your build while negating all your defense. That is what these reveals are doing.

Now imagine you try to spec in the other defensive line only to realize it was nerfed to the ground and is not viable.

Finally you take a look at your new elite spec which is supposed to be a defensive trait and save the mutha kittenin day…..Only you then realize it’s not that good.

That’s thief right now. Can great players make it work? Yes they can, but only b/c they are great players. The fact remains if you lose 1v1 to a thief in today’s game then the skill level of that thief is leaps and bounds above yours. I’d compare it to an Professional football team vs your local highschool football team.

AOE fields and minion master? Moa and minion master.

Also, people shouldn’t pretend you can’t counter play the reveal counter play. They are dodgable for the most part. Take a breath and just try to learn how to deal with it before jumping to doomsday is all I’m saying. Reveal as a limited mechanic counter is not innately wrong. Learn the telegraphs and prosper.

Like I said, thief has issues, protecting its stealth is not really one of them. Not to mention, this would be much less of an issue if Shadow Arts was designed to be more active rather than passive. That said, passive things deserve to have direct counters.

You haven’t rolled a thief yet huh?

Currently the reveals are instant 1200 range casts that are not “for the most part dodgable”. The engi trait lock on isn’t a 1 time skill but a spam the nades until you hit

I’m glad you’ve taken up this crusade against current stealth mechanics for thieves. You are quite,the expert on the,subject given that you’ve admitted to not playing thief.

Here’s food for thought. I propose steal removes all built up LF. If you are in DS when you get hit with steal then you are forced out due to running out of LF. Perfectly balanced and on par with reveal changes being made

That’s not far enough. It needs to be a hard counter. How about, “You cannot enter DS for 6 seconds. If currently in DS, you will lose DS form. You will not gain LF for 6 secs.”

My counter to your respond would be stop relying on DS just deal with it.

You are describing a skill that already exists: two classes have access to it. It’s called Moa.

Salamander.2504:

Gabriell.4856:

T raw.4658:

ronpierce.2760:

T raw.4658:

And the thief hate continues.

Imagine for one instance a mechanic negating an entire line of your build while negating all your defense. That is what these reveals are doing.

Now imagine you try to spec in the other defensive line only to realize it was nerfed to the ground and is not viable.

Finally you take a look at your new elite spec which is supposed to be a defensive trait and save the mutha kittenin day…..Only you then realize it’s not that good.

That’s thief right now. Can great players make it work? Yes they can, but only b/c they are great players. The fact remains if you lose 1v1 to a thief in today’s game then the skill level of that thief is leaps and bounds above yours. I’d compare it to an Professional football team vs your local highschool football team.

AOE fields and minion master? Moa and minion master.

Also, people shouldn’t pretend you can’t counter play the reveal counter play. They are dodgable for the most part. Take a breath and just try to learn how to deal with it before jumping to doomsday is all I’m saying. Reveal as a limited mechanic counter is not innately wrong. Learn the telegraphs and prosper.

Like I said, thief has issues, protecting its stealth is not really one of them. Not to mention, this would be much less of an issue if Shadow Arts was designed to be more active rather than passive. That said, passive things deserve to have direct counters.

You haven’t rolled a thief yet huh?

Currently the reveals are instant 1200 range casts that are not “for the most part dodgable”. The engi trait lock on isn’t a 1 time skill but a spam the nades until you hit

I’m glad you’ve taken up this crusade against current stealth mechanics for thieves. You are quite,the expert on the,subject given that you’ve admitted to not playing thief.

Here’s food for thought. I propose steal removes all built up LF. If you are in DS when you get hit with steal then you are forced out due to running out of LF. Perfectly balanced and on par with reveal changes being made

That’s not far enough. It needs to be a hard counter. How about, “You cannot enter DS for 6 seconds. If currently in DS, you will lose DS form. You will not gain LF for 6 secs.”

My counter to your respond would be stop relying on DS just deal with it.

You are describing a skill that already exists: two classes have access to it. It’s called Moa.

Ah but those are long CD skills…..we need 20 sec CD skills for DS counterplay

T raw.4658:

Salamander.2504:

Gabriell.4856:

T raw.4658:

ronpierce.2760:

T raw.4658:

And the thief hate continues.

Imagine for one instance a mechanic negating an entire line of your build while negating all your defense. That is what these reveals are doing.

Now imagine you try to spec in the other defensive line only to realize it was nerfed to the ground and is not viable.

Finally you take a look at your new elite spec which is supposed to be a defensive trait and save the mutha kittenin day…..Only you then realize it’s not that good.

That’s thief right now. Can great players make it work? Yes they can, but only b/c they are great players. The fact remains if you lose 1v1 to a thief in today’s game then the skill level of that thief is leaps and bounds above yours. I’d compare it to an Professional football team vs your local highschool football team.

AOE fields and minion master? Moa and minion master.

Also, people shouldn’t pretend you can’t counter play the reveal counter play. They are dodgable for the most part. Take a breath and just try to learn how to deal with it before jumping to doomsday is all I’m saying. Reveal as a limited mechanic counter is not innately wrong. Learn the telegraphs and prosper.

Like I said, thief has issues, protecting its stealth is not really one of them. Not to mention, this would be much less of an issue if Shadow Arts was designed to be more active rather than passive. That said, passive things deserve to have direct counters.

You haven’t rolled a thief yet huh?

Currently the reveals are instant 1200 range casts that are not “for the most part dodgable”. The engi trait lock on isn’t a 1 time skill but a spam the nades until you hit

I’m glad you’ve taken up this crusade against current stealth mechanics for thieves. You are quite,the expert on the,subject given that you’ve admitted to not playing thief.

Here’s food for thought. I propose steal removes all built up LF. If you are in DS when you get hit with steal then you are forced out due to running out of LF. Perfectly balanced and on par with reveal changes being made

That’s not far enough. It needs to be a hard counter. How about, “You cannot enter DS for 6 seconds. If currently in DS, you will lose DS form. You will not gain LF for 6 secs.”

My counter to your respond would be stop relying on DS just deal with it.

You are describing a skill that already exists: two classes have access to it. It’s called Moa.

Ah but those are long CD skills…..we need 20 sec CD skills for DS counterplay

What? DS counterplay is embedded in literally every skill in the game. It’s a rapidly depleting health bar. If you want to get the necro out of DS, just hit them. It certainly won’t take you longer than 20 seconds to do so.

Salamander.2504:

T raw.4658:

Salamander.2504:

Gabriell.4856:

T raw.4658:

ronpierce.2760:

T raw.4658:

And the thief hate continues.

Imagine for one instance a mechanic negating an entire line of your build while negating all your defense. That is what these reveals are doing.

Now imagine you try to spec in the other defensive line only to realize it was nerfed to the ground and is not viable.

Finally you take a look at your new elite spec which is supposed to be a defensive trait and save the mutha kittenin day…..Only you then realize it’s not that good.

That’s thief right now. Can great players make it work? Yes they can, but only b/c they are great players. The fact remains if you lose 1v1 to a thief in today’s game then the skill level of that thief is leaps and bounds above yours. I’d compare it to an Professional football team vs your local highschool football team.

AOE fields and minion master? Moa and minion master.

Also, people shouldn’t pretend you can’t counter play the reveal counter play. They are dodgable for the most part. Take a breath and just try to learn how to deal with it before jumping to doomsday is all I’m saying. Reveal as a limited mechanic counter is not innately wrong. Learn the telegraphs and prosper.

Like I said, thief has issues, protecting its stealth is not really one of them. Not to mention, this would be much less of an issue if Shadow Arts was designed to be more active rather than passive. That said, passive things deserve to have direct counters.

You haven’t rolled a thief yet huh?

Currently the reveals are instant 1200 range casts that are not “for the most part dodgable”. The engi trait lock on isn’t a 1 time skill but a spam the nades until you hit

I’m glad you’ve taken up this crusade against current stealth mechanics for thieves. You are quite,the expert on the,subject given that you’ve admitted to not playing thief.

Here’s food for thought. I propose steal removes all built up LF. If you are in DS when you get hit with steal then you are forced out due to running out of LF. Perfectly balanced and on par with reveal changes being made

That’s not far enough. It needs to be a hard counter. How about, “You cannot enter DS for 6 seconds. If currently in DS, you will lose DS form. You will not gain LF for 6 secs.”

My counter to your respond would be stop relying on DS just deal with it.

You are describing a skill that already exists: two classes have access to it. It’s called Moa.

Ah but those are long CD skills…..we need 20 sec CD skills for DS counterplay

What? STEALTH counterplay is embedded in literally every skill in the game. It’s a rapidly depleting STEALTH TIMER AND REVEAL STATUS ON ATTACK. If you want to get the THIEF out of STEALTH, just INTERRUPT them. It certainly won’t take you longer than 0.25 seconds to do so.

Now I think you might get the idea….

There is some hard-core drama queen thieves in here. All cranky over a 6 second reveal. But it’s ok, I get it. I mean after all, you thieves ha e literally no idea how to fight an opponent that can see you. ; P

My bad guys, the ones no one runs are not telegraphed. You got me.

Welol….this thread went down the pooper rather quickly.

Shaogin.2679:

There is some hard-core drama queen thieves in here. All cranky over a 6 second reveal. But it’s ok, I get it. I mean after all, you thieves ha e literally no idea how to fight an opponent that can see you. ; P

Sure cant. We have the lowest hp pool in the game and everyone got a damage buff.

Our defensive measure is literally only given to us as a trait when we are in stealth. And it was nerfed before we got it, because [reasons].

I don’t see how people can just ignore that. Common sense says that if you increase the dps of every class, and increase all the mitigation availability of said classes, but allow the class with the smallest hp pool to have its defense removed because [reasons], they’re going to be justifiably angry.

ronpierce.2760:

My bad guys, the ones no one runs are not telegraphed. You got me.

Who is this no one, and where can I find him.

Better question, what reveals ‘are’ telegraphed? Why is stealthing not okay because [no counterplay], but reveals without counterplay are?

And there it is personal insults when they lose debate.

gg

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Shaogin.2679:

There is some hard-core drama queen thieves in here. All cranky over a 6 second reveal. But it’s ok, I get it. I mean after all, you thieves ha e literally no idea how to fight an opponent that can see you. ; P

Sure cant. We have the lowest hp pool in the game and everyone got a damage buff.

Our defensive measure is literally only given to us as a trait when we are in stealth. And it was nerfed before we got it, because [reasons].

I don’t see how people can just ignore that. Common sense says that if you increase the dps of every class, and increase all the mitigation availability of said classes, but allow the class with the smallest hp pool to have its defense removed because [reasons], they’re going to be justifiably angry.

ronpierce.2760:

My bad guys, the ones no one runs are not telegraphed. You got me.

Who is this no one, and where can I find him.

Better question, what reveals ‘are’ telegraphed? Why is stealthing not okay because [no counterplay], but reveals without counterplay are?

The ones you might see more often outside of WvW (Revenant’s and Engineer’s new elite, which even that won’t get used much), have tells. The revenant’s is instant cast, but the effect is delayed, hence a learning issue.

Sic Em is rarely used because it’s a garbage utility useful against 2 classes at best, similarly, Lock On.

How often do you really have high tier ranger’s running around ruining your day with Sic ’Em?

Not only that, but the current ones don’t reveal you while IN stealth, they just prevent you from going back into stealth. The ones that will pull you out are the ones with tells (except, sort of, Lock on. The tell being anything that hits you. Again, not frequently used in tpvp as far as I can tell.)

This “revealed is EVERYWHERE” drama is really blown out of proportion. 3 classes have it? Is that right? One class can’t pull you out of stealth at all and it’s tied to a terrible utility. One class has a trait rarely ran, a utility rarely used and an AOE tied to an elite spec. And the last, also tied to an Elite spec. Both of which that are tied to an elite have a tell (Appropriate reaction times could be discussed but they have them).

To me, this whole argument is another cry for help from the Thief community, in which will realize it solves nothing. They remove reveal, you still have terrible stay-power and are used mostly for your mobility… Argue for something that has a purpose, like a reworked Shadow Arts or better combat design, not this silly stuff.

ronpierce.2760:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Shaogin.2679:

There is some hard-core drama queen thieves in here. All cranky over a 6 second reveal. But it’s ok, I get it. I mean after all, you thieves ha e literally no idea how to fight an opponent that can see you. ; P

Sure cant. We have the lowest hp pool in the game and everyone got a damage buff.

Our defensive measure is literally only given to us as a trait when we are in stealth. And it was nerfed before we got it, because [reasons].

I don’t see how people can just ignore that. Common sense says that if you increase the dps of every class, and increase all the mitigation availability of said classes, but allow the class with the smallest hp pool to have its defense removed because [reasons], they’re going to be justifiably angry.

ronpierce.2760:

My bad guys, the ones no one runs are not telegraphed. You got me.

Who is this no one, and where can I find him.

Better question, what reveals ‘are’ telegraphed? Why is stealthing not okay because [no counterplay], but reveals without counterplay are?

Argue for something that has a purpose, like a reworked Shadow Arts or better combat design, not this silly stuff.

[will debate consume facet and sneak gyro later when I have time.]

Re: The above:

This is quite true. That being said, it’s still silly to have an uncounterable debuff be placed on us because stealthing was uncounterable. That isnt fixing the issue, it’s just changing who’s on the losing end of it. Not only that, but revealed affects our status vs all nearby opponents, so it doesnt really matter that it’s a junk utility/trait in most cases, because one person carrying it works for your whole team, and if you’re roaming youll take it because thieves.

There are better issues to talk about, but this is one of them.

No, it isnt rampant, but the fact that certain classes can press a button to strip thieves of most of their defense, their damage potential and their condi purging is a stupid reality. We’re discussing SA and how dumb it is elsewhere I think.

Luclinraider.2317:

So does thief get anti class mechanics?

Thief already has an anti class mechanic. It’s called “I make every other stealth-less berserker spec invalid because of my insane burst.”

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Luclinraider.2317:

So does thief get anti class mechanics?

Thief already has an anti class mechanic. It’s called “I make every other stealth-less berserker spec invalid because of my insane burst.”

There was period of time when people ran so many guards that nobody brought thieves to tourney…. you think people ran more zerkers? NO. You know why? Because conquest favors bunkers/bruisers. Even if thieves didn’t exist most classes would still run bruiser builds.
Reason why mesmers and thieves run maraduer in conquest is
- thieves have no other options, LITERARY
- both of those classes have stealth and moblity to drop focus

Zerker guard, engi, mes, ranger can easily kill thief atm, fyi.

Lock On is the only relevant reveal being run right now. It’s one that you can kinda deal with for now.

The glint reveal has a telegraph, so its a fine one.
The scrapper one is bullkitten tho, no telegraph, its on toolbet and its more range than any of the other ones. Thanks god the Gyro IA is so bad people won’t use it.

Poxxia.1547:

Hmm:
AoE and cleaves in general is aids for clones. And it is abundant.
A single condition is messing up attunement-swapping.
Mobility and porting is messing up a class that lacks mobility.
The list goes on.

Instead of feeling victimised all the time, perhaps just wait a second and see if Daredevil doesn’t provide the 1vs1 possibilities without stealth-spam everyone (or at least a great deal) has sought. Perhaps the sky isn’t falling. Just hold your breath for a second – it isn’t like you have been out of the meta for 3 years or something. Stealth is a horrible mechanic anyway (imo) – the guessing-game is just a horrible counter to anything. Mind you: It doesn’t matter if engines get stealth: There will still be counters for stealth – even the very same class ironically.

It is getting old really fast to try to argue with people who wear earplugs and scream at the same time.

Daredevil is extremely fun with a monk mentality and appropriate gear (P/P + Staff)

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Shaogin.2679:

There is some hard-core drama queen thieves in here. All cranky over a 6 second reveal. But it’s ok, I get it. I mean after all, you thieves ha e literally no idea how to fight an opponent that can see you. ; P

Sure cant. We have the lowest hp pool in the game and everyone got a damage buff.

Our defensive measure is literally only given to us as a trait when we are in stealth. And it was nerfed before we got it, because [reasons].

I don’t see how people can just ignore that. Common sense says that if you increase the dps of every class, and increase all the mitigation availability of said classes, but allow the class with the smallest hp pool to have its defense removed because [reasons], they’re going to be justifiably angry.

ronpierce.2760:

My bad guys, the ones no one runs are not telegraphed. You got me.

Who is this no one, and where can I find him.

Better question, what reveals ‘are’ telegraphed? Why is stealthing not okay because [no counterplay], but reveals without counterplay are?

If the existance of a few reveals is breaking your class, then your class has much more serious issues than this. The sole survivability of the Thief should not rely on stealth. Yes in the Thief’s current state you made need it, but stealth is an incredibly cheesy mechanic to rely on. So I can’t really take threads like these seriously when it’s just people whining about a legitimate counter to stealth.

Now if this thread had came off as being much more constructive stating exactly what needed to be adjusted (not removed), then sure this could have been a decent thread. And for the record, Engineers have already stated that the Sneak Gyro reveal feels too strong and we are all expecting a nerf on that. But this whole, “Anet obviously hates [insert your class] and loves [insert class you hate]” mentally is just so childish and annoying.

man terrible, A net, Nerfing an intergral part of a thiefs sustain and dps., terrible. It’s like giving every class the ability to oneshot all ai with a 600 unit radius. effectively kittening over mesmers. because more classes get more stealth? do you really think that thiefs are going to waste an entire traitline just to get more endurance? never tought a net would nerf such an essential mechanic to a class because of some elite specilisation. so basically don’t get hit or you are kittened. Good to know A-net. forcing thiefs into the specialsiation how transparent.

Rezzet.3614:

Alekt.5803:

What I don’t like is how Scrappers seems to be master of stealth. They have a ton of stealth while also being the best at revealing.

might wanna learn about what you talk about before doing so

the stealth gyro doesnt give stealth to allies randomly for 15 seconds it is still a farcry of what shadow refuge is

the sneak gyro functions as a mobile stealth field wich you can kill , the gyro is target able as such as soon gyro expires or gets killed = no stealth and it is counterable by said other reveal skills , players have to be under the gyro to begin with so you will Always know where they are if they went invisible right under the floating gyro

if you cant survive 6 seconds revealed then you werent meant to play thief specially with the tons of evades and even more now with the new spec that is nothing but pure evades even evades while hitting

Might wanna know that I don’t play thief. I also think that the stealth gyro can potentially be better than Shadow Refuge.

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

man terrible, A net, Nerfing an intergral part of a thiefs sustain and dps., terrible. It’s like giving every class the ability to oneshot all ai with a 600 unit radius. effectively kittening over mesmers..

Is that sarcasm or not because if it wasn’t…well, I’m just speechless given how much AoE there is and how little health those clones have.

tetrodoxin.2134:

My god, when will these embarassing self-victimizing thief posts/threads finally stop. Most people agree that thief needs help in some aspects (including me), but threads like these are just nonsense. As other players already pointed out, every class has counterplay to its class mechanics, stop acting like a special snowflake, cause you’re not. That has nothing to do with “thief hate”, it’s called being objective.

Yes, you are the epitome of skill when you manage to kill another class 1v1 on thief. No other explanation, because thief is lacking in every aspect of everything. It is the red-headed stepchild of arenanet, everyone hates you (including arenanet, the players and the Los Angeles Lakers) and there’s a secret society operating in the underground (thief elimination and removal squad, or T.E.A.R.S) with the one and only goal to destroy the thief class completely. And they succeeded! Twice!

That’s what you wanted to hear, right? There you go.

On a more serious note: Guys, we understand. Almost every class has had a state of near uselessness, and most players needed something to vent those frustrations. But you know what never helped? Hyperboling. On everything. It might be tradition in MMO forums, but it never really helped implementing meaningful and thoughtful changes. Rather the opposite. That goes for both directions, buffs and nerfs.

Oh, and no. Stealth is not a thief class-mechanic. You kinda got that wrong.
Initiative, Steal and Stealth attacks are. And just like you can prevent a Mesmer from shattering by AoEing all clones, or prepare to block/invul/evade the Warriors highly telegraphed Burst skills, you can prevent a thief from backstabbing if you’re on the right class with the right traits/skills equipped with applying reveal. Most classes can’t even reveal, even after the expansion.

Also, I am a Mesmer main and long-time member of T.E.A.R.S.

The better question is, when are we going to stop getting nerfed every time trash players kick and scream and cry because they got outplayed by thieves? Until then, these threads will continue to pop up, and rightfully so. Don’t like it, don’t read it. We’ve been nerfed continually since launch, so we have every right to complain. We have every right to complain about being constantly nerfed as trash players have to continually kitten and cry because they suck at the game.

Thief hate is what got the thief into the state it’s in, not “being objective”. Please, don’t make me laugh. Every time someone got roflstomped by a thief, they came to the forums, kicking and screaming until they got their way, and we got nerfed. Some nerfs were justified, but some were not, and we’ve barely been compensated for any of said nerfs. So please, don’t insult the thief community by claiming “objectivity”.

TL;DR Stop complaining about people making valid complaints Don’t like it, don’t read it. Wow, that was hard.