Guild Wars 2

apharma.3741:

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

man terrible, A net, Nerfing an intergral part of a thiefs sustain and dps., terrible. It’s like giving every class the ability to oneshot all ai with a 600 unit radius. effectively kittening over mesmers..

Is that sarcasm or not because if it wasn’t…well, I’m just speechless given how much AoE there is and how little health those clones have.

nope, i’m bieng real here. Unless you think the default attack of every class is AOE. it’s still pretty much a kitten u to mesmer if you can just kitten over every AI. in a 600 unit radius just like that. AOE is not the default way of figthing.

Anyways this is kittened. Like why the kitten come with such an anti thief ability? It makes no sense even in light of the extra dodges the daredevil gives. It’s wishfull thinking.

Seems like some secret nerf to thiefs again. Man I hope they better change thier kittening mind.

There are only two classes that have access to reveal on base spec so far: ranger and engi. Each of them has 1 skill to reveal an enemy. Engi has traits but that means pigeonholing. Dragonhunter and Heralds have 1 each and again, it requires pigeonholing. Scrapper is the only spec that seems to be designed to counter stealth.

When a “mechanic” is so integral with the class and used abundantly, that means it’s time it’s important enough to REQUIRE a counter not be kept in an ivory tower deep in the nowhere forest. lol simple logic.

If anything we need MORE reveal. Every class should at least has a reveal. With a class that has plenty of shadowstep, blinds and dodge, relying solely on stealth for offense and defense is so passe and one dimensional. That playstyle needed to go 3 years ago.

DavyMcB.1603:

There are only two classes that have access to reveal on base spec so far: ranger and engi. Each of them has 1 skill to reveal an enemy. Engi has traits but that means pigeonholing. Dragonhunter and Heralds have 1 each and again, it requires pigeonholing. Scrapper is the only spec that seems to be designed to counter stealth.

When a “mechanic” is so integral with the class and used abundantly, that means it’s time it’s important enough to REQUIRE a counter not be kept in an ivory tower deep in the nowhere forest. lol simple logic.

If anything we need MORE reveal. Every class should at least has a reveal. With a class that has plenty of shadowstep, blinds and dodge, relying solely on stealth for offense and defense is so passe and one dimensional. That playstyle needed to go 3 years ago.

U cannot be serious here? So it’s ok that we we all have resistance. to an engineer’s condi burst? Or perma reflect to ranger? No it’s stupid. U cannot justify kittening over an entire class because you think it shouldn’t be depedent on a core mechanic of a game. It’s a class meant to be stealthy by default. It’s not called a thief cause it’s an upfront arnold Schwarzenegger meathead warrior. Come on. You act as if thiefs have no counter whatsoever. U couldn’t be farther from the truth. Massive aoe singl burst damage, condi’s or immunity can get you very far. they are already squishy as hell. But now to actually take away their only viable way of defending? come on man. you act as if thiefs are constantly teleporting around spamming blind 24/7.

It saddens me to see so many post from “thief” players who do not even understand what their professional mechanic is. It is also sad to see the inaccurate claims from thief players stating you cannot stealth without initiative. Initiative is the professional mechanic, and you can stealth with runes+certain utility skills as well as certain utility and heal skills alone, using no initiative at all. My understanding is that stealth is intended to be a defencive mechanism, and it can and should be counterable. The abuse of this mechanic is what draws ire to it.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Luclinraider.2317:

So does thief get anti class mechanics?

Thief already has an anti class mechanic. It’s called “I make every other stealth-less berserker spec invalid because of my insane burst.”

LOL insane burst, You mean Backstabs or something? I just dont see this “insane burst”. i did some testing with “meta builds” and how much i can burst them compared to how much they can burst me.

Fun fact, almost every powerbased build outdps thief in 3 sec of fight.(thief can make 1 backstab each restealth-3 sec). Ofc i compared it without evades and blindspam. Just raw dmg.
Warrior
- Gs can 2hit you (whirl and f1 basicly combo K.O you)
-1full autoattack chain and f1 almost kills thief
-Hammer – fullcombo kills thief but its not in 3 sec so 60% dmg done to thief
Thief backstab hits warrior hard cuz they have no armor on maruder stat, still didnt manage to take down more than 40% of warr hp.

Ele
-Burning speed outclasses thief dmg hard/Burning speed + Ring of fire + fire grab combo kills thief easily
-Freshair can 1 combo thief(shouldnt cout drag tooth but still raw dmg is raw dmg)
There is almost no way for thief to burst ele, eles traits make it almost impossible to get them.

Mesmer
-easy shattercombo 1shot kills thief
Thief can also 1combo kill mesmer.

Engi
Cant rly kill thief in 3 sec, can deal enough dmg to make thief reset fight. Maruder engi can just 1shot thief with Granate/rifle5 combo
Soldier- unburstable
Maruder- traits make it impossible to burst them.

Rangers
-Maul/autoattack just kills thief without even counting pet dmg
-Rapidfire takes 80% of thief hp

Thief 1st hit on ranger will be negated by 33% dmg reduc so no burst

Guards
-Bunkerguards can drop you down in less than 2 sec
-Maruders GS – 1 combo k.o Hammer combo slower than 3 sec but still with full combo kills thief

Thief can dmg spike guards pretty hard, they can negate aegis hard and hit even harder.

Necros
-Condi cant win vs thief dmg in 3 sec.
-Power with wells outclasses thief dmg, thier autoattack feels just stronger
-Cele and Power in DS still deal less dmg than thief due to slow attack animation(even with big hits)

Thief can spike necros pretty hard, even considering thier hp pools in terms of raw dmg “burst” thief outclasses necro in 3 sec of fight.

So where is rumored insane thief bursts? Most of other classes deal more raw dmg to thief than thief to them and still have insane amounts of survi.

In fair fight thief should lose to every class, but thieves play dirty, blindspam/resets/dazes lets them win duels. Its just kinda hard when game forces you to not make mistakes if you want to win vs other class, when other classes need to land 1/2 combo to kill you.

I calculated dmg for 3 sec cuz this is time best thief will be visible in 1v1, And its the time burst will happen to both parties.

coglin.1867:

It saddens me to see so many post from “thief” players who do not even understand what their professional mechanic is. It is also sad to see the inaccurate claims from thief players stating you cannot stealth without initiative. Initiative is the professional mechanic, and you can stealth with runes+certain utility skills as well as certain utility and heal skills alone, using no initiative at all. My understanding is that stealth is intended to be a defencive mechanism, and it can and should be counterable. The abuse of this mechanic is what draws ire to it.

Stealth attack is defensive mechanism? OK.
When other classes can use runes/utilities and weapon skills (with cd) thier usage is mostly defensive, Thief restealths to DEAL DMG. Outside Backstab thief dmg is just LOW, how can you argue that denying thief from using Backstab is not “anti thief”

Its like Aegis for guards, Aegis can heal, aegis can give you reta, aegis can deal dmg, aegis can boost your dmg for 20%. YET i dont see any game mechanics that say “if you get this debuff you cant get Aegis for next 6 sec” Guards would eat(or burn) devs alive!
“Aegis is not Guard Mechanics, other classes can get aegis put on them and its defensive mechanism that should be counterable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
FUN not?

AND IT IS counterable! Since there are “UNBLOCKABLE” attacks / spells.
And you guys know what? Even if your hit by unblockable spell while having aegis/traits tied to aegis it still procs every trait tied to aegis and consumes it. You lose traits that are not directly tied to aegis like burn on block -since you dont block you dont burn, but Shattered Aegis still works, you still will get heal/reta if traited.

WIth Counter to stealth, Classes using stealth lose effectivnes of any trait/mechanics tied to stealth, Mesmers wont get lower torch cd nor boons from PU, Thief wont regen ini/hp wont get acces to stealth attack? You guys seriously belive its ok?

Man…some thieves will have you believe the class is unusable, yet every top team continues to run 1 as they have forever.

I didn’t read the whole thread, but adding more revealed is a good thing. If you give more counterplay to stealth, you can then give classes that have relied on stealth newer defensive mechanics b/c stealth isn’t as OP anymore.

As its now, without many ways to give revealed, stealth is pretty OP and lacks counterplay. This plays a significant role in driving the meta away from zerkers towards tankier builds, b/c being able to tank a stealth burst and recover is really the only option. Adding counterplay favors increasing more burst builds, which oddly helps thieves thrive more. It also means that there is less risk adding additional defensive mechanics that can stack ontop of stealth to make something that is disgustingly OP as a spec.

If interested please drop by, pick apart or add ideas in this thread Stealth – Combat feedback making it more fun. As I’m looking to improve stealth gameplay & make it enjoyable for viewing.

BlackBeard.2873:

Man…some thieves will have you believe the class is unusable, yet every top team continues to run 1 as they have forever.

I didn’t read the whole thread, but adding more revealed is a good thing. If you give more counterplay to stealth, you can then give classes that have relied on stealth newer defensive mechanics b/c stealth isn’t as OP anymore.

As its now, without many ways to give revealed, stealth is pretty OP and lacks counterplay. This plays a significant role in driving the meta away from zerkers towards tankier builds, b/c being able to tank a stealth burst and recover is really the only option. Adding counterplay favors increasing more burst builds, which oddly helps thieves thrive more. It also means that there is less risk adding additional defensive mechanics that can stack ontop of stealth to make something that is disgustingly OP as a spec.

There is a whole thread that denies your point of view, too bad u didnt read it. /

and for the 10000000000 time, thief is not used in PRO TEAMS cuz of f stealth but cuz of MOBILITY, have you ever seen any of this “pro teams” thieves to even consider fighting in teamfights? NO? Mby cuz Stealth is so op that if they leave it they will be instakilled?
If stealth as defence is OP then:
Zerk stance is op,
Endure pain/signet of stone/any aegis genereator/mesmer f4 and s2/ ETC

Yet i dont see you whinning that “WARRIOR CANNOT BE DMGED BY PHYS DMG FOR 6 SEC” NEEERF IT! Yet 3sec of not dealing dmg to you/ not capping your points is op…

Actually, Stealth is a pretty big part of why pro teams use a thief. Merciful Ambush and Shadow Refuge rezzes are that strong.

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

apharma.3741:

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

man terrible, A net, Nerfing an intergral part of a thiefs sustain and dps., terrible. It’s like giving every class the ability to oneshot all ai with a 600 unit radius. effectively kittening over mesmers..

Is that sarcasm or not because if it wasn’t…well, I’m just speechless given how much AoE there is and how little health those clones have.

nope, i’m bieng real here. Unless you think the default attack of every class is AOE. it’s still pretty much a kitten u to mesmer if you can just kitten over every AI. in a 600 unit radius just like that. AOE is not the default way of figthing.

Anyways this is kittened. Like why the kitten come with such an anti thief ability? It makes no sense even in light of the extra dodges the daredevil gives. It’s wishfull thinking.

Seems like some secret nerf to thiefs again. Man I hope they better change thier kittening mind.

Actually most basic attacks in the game cleave 2 or more targets. There’s some outliers like necro axe but they’re very rare. Mesmer clones have 2.5k health, you can literally one shot them with the final attack of most auto attacks in a zerk/marauder amulet. If there’s more than 2 people around then it’s not uncommon for clones to die as soon as they appear.

So yes, most classes can one shot a mesmers AI which is what ANet did and before IP was made baseline for mesmers it meant they couldn’t even use their class mechanic without training for it.

By the way reveal is anti stealth not anti thief. There are many classes now that will have access in some way to stealth outside of PvP and so they do need to make counters available. Makes me wonder if they’re going to introduce trapper runes in PvP.

Mefiq.7039

Fun fact, almost every powerbased build outdps thief in 3 sec of fight.(thief can make 1 backstab each restealth-3 sec). Ofc i compared it without evades and blindspam. Just raw dmg.

I am fairly sure “fact” doesn’t mean what you think it means. Do you have any proof to support that claim? With out proof it cannot be a fact. With out offering evidence, it isn’t even a solid argument.

Now You list all this ways you suggest professions kills thieves easily. You made a solid effort to be a little unrealistic in my opinion. Can you link me the builds for each profession?

Mefiq.7039

So where is rumored insane thief bursts? Most of other classes deal more raw dmg to thief than thief to them and still have insane amounts of survi.

Hmm, that doesn’t sound reasonable to me. Do you have any evidence you can link to support that? Can those said professions do their burst unseen from stealth?

Mefiq.7039

Stealth attack is defensive mechanism? OK.
When other classes can use runes/utilities and weapon skills (with cd) thier usage is mostly defensive, Thief restealths to DEAL DMG. Outside Backstab thief dmg is just LOW, how can you argue that denying thief from using Backstab is not "anti thief

What does any of that have to do with what I said?

How do you demand it is a defensive mechanism, yet in the same paragraph define it as a method of attack?

Who cares about denying thief a backstab? Do you care if you deny other a multitude of skills they cannot use against a stealth player due to targeting requirements?

Mefiq.7039

WIth Counter to stealth, Classes using stealth lose effectivnes of any trait/mechanics tied to stealth, Mesmers wont get lower torch cd nor boons from PU, Thief wont regen ini/hp wont get acces to stealth attack? You guys seriously belive its ok?

Yeah, I absolutely believe it is okay, thanks for asking. Do not put all your eggs in one basket, then complain about the downside, that is on you, not others.

Mefiq.7039:

and for the 10000000000 time, thief is not used in PRO TEAMS cuz of f stealth but cuz of MOBILITY, have you ever seen any of this “pro teams” thieves to even consider fighting in teamfights? NO? Mby cuz Stealth is so op that if they leave it they will be instakilled?
If stealth as defence is OP then:
Zerk stance is op,
Endure pain/signet of stone/any aegis genereator/mesmer f4 and s2/ ETC

Yet i dont see you whinning that “WARRIOR CANNOT BE DMGED BY PHYS DMG FOR 6 SEC” NEEERF IT! Yet 3sec of not dealing dmg to you/ not capping your points is op…

Pro teams take thieves on every single one for more reasons than just mobility. Mobilty + stealth creates a lot of map pressure, as you need to keep a constant eye out to make sure the thief isn’t decapping. As mentioned above, stealth to secure resses is one of the strongest forms of team-support in the game. Stealth + shadow-steps allow for insta-downs of any squishy target below 70% health and any target below 30%. In fact, the power of stealth bursts in many situations has caused the meta to be dominated by vamp runes. Idk how you can claim your class is weak when it is still shaping the entire meta.

As for endure pain, there are some complaints about it, and its not the best mechanic, but endure pain has tons of counterplay. Warrior pops endure pain…just keep up blinds and kiting him. Nobody ever gets bursted by a warrior without seeing it coming, but if you are fighting a 1v1 and dont’ know where the enemy thief is, you need to expand your awareness far beyond your single opponent to prepare for a potential burst that you will never see.

The fact is, stealth is king in any burst v. burst fight. It not only gives you priority in opening the fight (which also determines who wins), but it also gives you, when combined with shadowsteps, unparalleled capability to reset any time you make a mistake, and once you get into stealth, the ways you can be damaged are limited to random melee cleave.

In fact, every time the meta settles out, the highest levels of play often devolve into series of teams shadow-refuging and then insta-gibbing someone repeatedly (as it was prior to the specialization patch). Offering a way to counterplay that situation and to give other burst players means of recapturing the initiative in a fight enables diversity.

If thieve’s strangle-hold on the burst roamer build were ever threatened, they would have to be compensated with other options, like a return to a high evasion role (like S/D was once and they are trying to recreate with daredevil).

Finally, in regards to thieves specifically, I have reason to believe that you aren’t a very good thief if you think that all your damage comes from just backstab. Dagger auto-attacks are one of the strongest in the game, and properly using your blind fields to capitalize on this is something every good thief does. Sure, its not enough to out-dps your opponent if you are recklessly bashing your face into them, but by properly managing your space, cooldowns, and initiative you will beat any target caught without cooldowns. The BEST thieves aren’t those who rush in, but those who exercise patience and maximize their map-control and burst capability.

Consider this: You engage in a 1v1 on-point as a thief vs. anyone. You get low and shadow refuge. What should your opponent do? If he just leaves he gives you the point for free, and you just won your 1v1 without downing anyone. If he stays, you can already be at another point spiking someone down while he stands there, being as effective as if you were 2v1-ing. I don’t know how you can ever say that stealth, which creates such a situation, shouldn’t have any way to counterplay it…

Lol wow alot of mindless people in this thread talking about adding a counter to stealth because in their mind “stealth is un-counterable” which is a L2p issue on their end.

They apparently aren’t aware of how useless you are to your team if you sit in stealth too long and are salty if a thief stealths and leaves a fight in wvw against them.

Furthermore their totally happy adding reveal to more classes when reveal itself is a garbage mechanic that is poorly made.

No diminishing returns like a plethora of things in this game, can be applied with a trap in WvW out of your inventory.

No way to counter play it what so ever, literally you just are expected to endure losing an entire trait-line worth of traits to mostly passive procs or insta cast skills.

Anyone who even remotely thinks that its a good mechanic and fair in anyway to thief clearly just wants that class to be deleted already.

HoT will have 2 metas, 1 for conquest 1 for stronKhold, at this point with how many casual players hate thieves or any stealth assassin from any game, may as well re-roll to a Rev.

• “Actually, Stealth is a pretty big part of why pro teams use a thief. Merciful Ambush and Shadow Refuge rezzes are that strong.”

Irrelevant come HoT with Glint Revs but i guess its good to keep dreams alive.

I dont get how Stealth is a Thief class mechanic. Mesmer, Engi, Ranger also have Stealth. That’s half of the core professions that have Stealth. You can also get Stealth through 2 Rune sets.

Sagat.3285:

@ronpierce That’s a bad comparison between thief and necro, stealth attacks are a thief mechanic and stealth is part of thief. Bad comparisons with ele,mesmer,necro. Do you want a good example?

For the next 6 sec you are unable to gain LF,swap attunements(tempest lol),unable to create illusions,unable to gain adrenaline etc. The only reason more reveal is because they are adding stealth to other classes and more stealth to WvW they are the ones that made PU about stealth instead of boons. It’s all excuses just to nerf thief while nerfing it.

And that’s a bad comparison.

You cannot compare Stealth to Life Force or Adrenaline.
You can compare Initiative to Life Force and Adrenaline.
There isnt any counter skill out there which says “you cannot gain initiative for x seconds”.
Then there should not be one for Life Force or Adrenaline.

You cannot compare Stealth to swapping Attunements either.
You can compare Steal to Attunements.
There isnt any counter skill out there which says “you cannot use your F1 button to Steal for x seconds”.
Then there should not be one for Attunement swap.

You can compare Steal to a boon or other effect.
There are skills out there which say “steal/rip boons from foe”.
There are skills out there which say “Reveal foe”.
Most Guardian builds use boons as sustain. Take away those boons and the Guardian is dead. That’s counter play.
Most Thief builds use Stealth as sustain. Take away Stealth and the Thief is dead. That’s counter play.
There are Guardian builds that use other methods of sustain such as Altruistic Healing or Monk’s Focus instead.
There are Thief builds that use other methods of sustain such as Teleports and Dodge instead.

This is like you only know how to play Rock, then when other people play Paper, you complain. Well “learn to play” Scissors.

You can compare Sneak Attack to Shatters.
Shatters are powerful skills which are available while you have Clones.
Sneak Attack is a powerful skill which is available while in Stealth.
Mesmer Shatters lose their effectiveness if you kill their clones.
Thief Sneak Attacks lose their effectiveness if you Reveal them.

Those are fair 1 for 1 mechanic comparisons.

BlackBeard.2873:

Man…some thieves will have you believe the class is unusable, yet every top team continues to run 1 as they have forever.

Note: Garbage argument.

Top teams run thieves because having a quick backcapper is useful, not because Thief at its core is a good skirmishing class.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

BlackBeard.2873:

Man…some thieves will have you believe the class is unusable, yet every top team continues to run 1 as they have forever.

Note: Garbage argument.

Top teams run thieves because having a quick backcapper is useful, not because Thief at its core is a good skirmishing class.

1. GW2 is all about roles, and thief is uncontested in its role. You may not like the role yourself, but the class with respect to all others is still one of the strongest due to being easily the best at its role. Seeing as balance in the game is about making every class viable within 1 role, it kind of has to be that way. Making thieves better at map mobility but worse total damage/1v1 potential than mesmers (really the only other class reliably competing for roaming dps roles) gives both a role. If you just have as much damage as a mesmer, you make the latter basically obsolete.

2. If you think all thief does is back-cap you haven’t been paying much attention to the best thieves.

Thieves provide the best map control via back-caps, true, but they also provide the most consistent +1 in the game with no-CD stealth burst (yes, init is an effective CD, but properly managing it means you have burst when its needed). Paired with a mesmer, they make a nearly unstoppable pain-train when coordinating properly.

Thief isn’t great when caught in an even 1v1 or 2v2 when their partner is some bruiser class, but you can’t balance around poor use of the class. Thief isn’t meant to be good at skirmishing (bashing faces into one another). It is meant, according to past dev comments, to be great at creating and winning unfair fights. I’d say it does that to a T.

3. The point about more revealed is that you have more room to buff thief damage/defense by introducing more counterplay to one of their current defense mechanics that currently lacks it.

Snipping to address some points. I’m tired.

BlackBeard.2873:

Seeing as balance in the game is about making every class viable within 1 role, it kind of has to be that way.

? Since when is balance making every class good at doing one thing? Speccing should allow classes to do other roles to a satisfactory manner. It was one of the selling points of GW2.

Making thieves better at map mobility but worse total damage/1v1 potential than mesmers (really the only other class reliably competing for roaming dps roles) gives both a role. If you just have as much damage as a mesmer, you make the latter basically obsolete.

Says who?

For that matter, who says that 1v1 prowess [if we are discussing roles] belongs to the mesmer?

The official GW2 Wiki for thieves says that they are “deadly in 1v1 fights”.

Mesmers “make sure every fight is balanced in their favor”.

Thief isn’t great when caught in an even 1v1 or 2v2 when their partner is some bruiser class, but you can’t balance around poor use of the class. Thief isn’t meant to be good at skirmishing (bashing faces into one another). It is meant, according to past dev comments, to be great at creating and winning unfair fights. I’d say it does that to a T.

“Best at winning unfair fights” is not a role. It is proof you are not sleeping at your keyboard.

Apologies if I come off as harsh. I’m really tired of people saying “but you can be the best sidekick!” as a core argument for why Thief is okay.

And, I’d like to mention that no, I am not looking for more damage. I’m looking for the sustain (be that through blocks, evades, toughness or otherwise) built into the core thief so that they can be competent at 1v1. Instead of being a free bag/kill. Bursting down x class and calling that skill is boring. If I choose to pit my class against any other class though in a 1v1, the victor should be the one most skilled, rather than the one less encumbered by the mechanical hindrances of their class.

To assert anything otherwise because of a short range teleport that uses half of the resource pool a class uses to deal damage is something between asinine and petty, at least as far as I’m concerned.

BlackBeard.2873:

Finally, in regards to thieves specifically, I have reason to believe that you aren’t a very good thief if you think that all your damage comes from just backstab. Dagger auto-attacks are one of the strongest in the game, and properly using your blind fields to capitalize on this is something every good thief does. Sure, its not enough to out-dps your opponent if you are recklessly bashing your face into them, but by properly managing your space, cooldowns, and initiative you will beat any target caught without cooldowns. The BEST thieves aren’t those who rush in, but those who exercise patience and maximize their map-control and burst capability.

Consider this: You engage in a 1v1 on-point as a thief vs. anyone. You get low and shadow refuge. What should your opponent do? If he just leaves he gives you the point for free, and you just won your 1v1 without downing anyone. If he stays, you can already be at another point spiking someone down while he stands there, being as effective as if you were 2v1-ing. I don’t know how you can ever say that stealth, which creates such a situation, shouldn’t have any way to counterplay it…

Read what i wrote, its RAW DMG in 3 sec, I KNOW thief can still duel and win 1v1 cuz he can render enemy attacks useless, STILL dmg dont by other classes if not “rendered useless” deal way more dmg cuz FACE IT, Thief is PAPER without hardcore “defensive passives” like other paper classes have. I tested just dmg you can deal on each class. Not CC not BLINDS (blinding enemy is actually dps loss). I calculated MAXIMUM dmg you can get from 100% CRITS on every thief hit vs every enemy CRIT. And only Necro couldnt just stomp thief.

My whole post was about ppl whinning about Thiefs burst when OTHER classes deal same if not better dmg with thier dps rotation. Thief has the upper hand in chosing when he want to burst and is not restricted by CD.

@Turtle Dragon.9241
Still there is no Insta 20sec cd spell that kills every clone in 1200 range.

@coglin.1867
Metabattle builds, do i rly need to post link for you?

Mefiq.7039:

Still there is no Insta 20sec cd spell that kills every clone in 1200 range.

There are skills that kill every clones at range, namely Toss Elixir X and Signet of Humility.

They are not instant cast, nor 20s cooldown, but their effects is much more powerful than just Reveal.

Given that Reveal only disables 1 skill(Sneak Attack) from a Thief’s bar, while Moa completely disables someone’s whole skillbar, removes all clones/minions and also removes Juggernaut/DS/Tornado forms,
I think it is well balanced that a skill that only disables 1 skill(Sneak Attack) from 1 profession’s skillbar only has 20s cooldown when compared to Moa Elites that disable whole skill bars from any profession have 120/180s cooldowns.

It is also warranted for balance that a small effect such as Reveal be dispensable through AoE by an Elite skill, while Moa require targeting also by an Elite skill.

Btw, Detection Pulse has 3/4 cast and is not insta.

Any engineer who slots that gyro has given up a far more formidable combat elite. You should be thanking them tbh.

Not like theif is that hard of a fight on engi, just land that OS.

BlackBeard.2873:

In fact, the power of stealth bursts in many situations has caused the meta to be dominated by vamp runes. Idk how you can claim your class is weak when it is still shaping the entire meta.

Some things just don’t plain add up. On one hand we have people saying rangers don’t take sic ‘em, engies won’t run their reveal and others don’t use reveals because “it’s trash and not useful” so we shouldn’t complain about increased reveals as it’s irrelevant…

And then on the other hand you are claiming people are changing their entire build to counter thieves bursting from stealth?

This ‘argument’ cannot be had both ways!!

stealth is king in burst vs burst … it also gives you, when combined with shadowsteps, unparalleled capability to reset any time you make a mistake, and once you get into stealth, the ways you can be damaged are limited to random melee cleave.

Not true… any form of AoE, especially condition based, and/or traps, marks and more. Additionally, if I make a mistake I’m dead; a LOT of classes have skills that can hit for 8k+ these days – especially if you wasted a dodge and have none left, or had to use your stun breakers to enable a condi cleanse/gap closer. True, my build is relatively glassy so I should probably experiment more – but I’m currently playing warrior as it’s awesome fun.

Finally, in regards to thieves specifically, I have reason to believe that you aren’t a very good thief if you think that all your damage comes from just backstab. Dagger auto-attacks are one of the strongest in the game, and properly using your blind fields to capitalize on this is something every good thief does.

You are aware that people can hit from outside the smoke fields, right? It’s not just drop a smoke field, stand and auto-attack to win.

Consider this: You engage in a 1v1 on-point as a thief vs. anyone. You get low and shadow refuge. What should your opponent do? If he just leaves he gives you the point for free, and you just won your 1v1 without downing anyone. If he stays, you can already be at another point spiking someone down while he stands there, being as effective as if you were 2v1-ing. I don’t know how you can ever say that stealth, which creates such a situation, shouldn’t have any way to counterplay it…

What fantasy world do you live in? I suggest you go play a thief and drop a shadow refuge infront of someone when you’re “low” – let us know how that goes.

To be clear – stealth doesn’t remove us to some magical place out of harms way.

Chips.7968:

1: Some things just don’t plain add up. On one hand we have people saying rangers don’t take sic ‘em, engies won’t run their reveal and others don’t use reveals because “it’s trash and not useful” so we shouldn’t complain about increased reveals as it’s irrelevant…
And then on the other hand you are claiming people are changing their entire build to counter thieves bursting from stealth?
This ‘argument’ cannot be had both ways!!

2: Not true… any form of AoE, especially condition based, and/or traps, marks and more. Additionally, if I make a mistake I’m dead; a LOT of classes have skills that can hit for 8k+ these days – especially if you wasted a dodge and have none left, or had to use your stun breakers to enable a condi cleanse/gap closer. True, my build is relatively glassy so I should probably experiment more – but I’m currently playing warrior as it’s awesome fun.
You are aware that people can hit from outside the smoke fields, right? It’s not just drop a smoke field, stand and auto-attack to win.

3: What fantasy world do you live in? I suggest you go play a thief and drop a shadow refuge infront of someone when you’re “low” – let us know how that goes.

4: To be clear – stealth doesn’t remove us to some magical place out of harms way.

1: Honestly. Do you even engie or ranger – even casually? Lock On is nice – you DO have to hit the person who is stealth, and not every thief is petrified, when they stealth. But I would not call it bad – on the contrary. I find it to be one of the viable options. ‘Sic Em’ however: Provided we are looking at glass-power-ranger, what do you suggest I give up? I can’t fit it in – it isn’t garbage, but who runs shouts atm, when there are so many other threats? There are other ways than these to prevent/tackle burst from stealth – amulets, traps, runes etc – that doesn’t change however, that thieves are by mobility + stealth providing unparalleled opportunity to engage on their terms – and in that way defining what is viable and what isn’t.

2. 8K … in a single burst. Ok – lets not nitpick over this one. Smoke field is really strong vs some classes which you should know if you play warrior – som classes/speccs do their damage in melee-range. I don’t play warrior, but that is what I hear.

3. You do realise not even class/specc have a untargeted knock back or some AoE-effect of some sort on short CD. And not every thief drops SR where it can be accessed easily in 1 second. Some thieves even bait skills in order to drop SR – yeah, some think ahead

4. No it doesn’t put you out of harms way – you have to move those feet and walk/run unnoticed a bit – that is true. And perhaps not run in a straight line and be 100% predictable – but if you do that, you are magically safe. There is too much survivability weaved into stealth anyway – something that most likely should be elsewhere and not be weaved into some cheesy mechanism – but that is just my opinion.

Cheers.

Poxxia, not sure you’re quite getting what I am saying… I am pointing out is where statements are made that don’t stack up, not what your build choices should be.

So:

1) I’m not commenting upon the quality of reveals that classes have (or will have), I’m pointing out that the below two paraphrases are at odds with each other, yet are both being put forward by those complaining about thieves/stealth:

“No-one is going to change skills to address one class mechanic” (reveal skills).
“Everyone is changing builds to address one class mechanic”. (vamp runes).

Eh?!

It’s nothing to do with what you run, we all have build choice dilemmas. It is simply the claim that no-one will change builds to address one class mechanic followed by a claim that most change builds to address a class mechanic.
Now whether people do or don’t change their builds to address one class is their choice. But making sweeping statements as if true but only in favour of “stealth is OP” isn’t… fair.

2) Never said smoke field isn’t strong. They reduced the pulse frequency which was a good thing as it was a bit OP – but honestly it’s the 3 skill that I find makes d/p really strong; teleport with blind.

3) Again, my response wasn’t about your build choices – that’s not my problem. I was responding to the claim that once in stealth its “random cleave” is the only option; it isn’t… unless you build in a way that it is. But your choice to build that way isn’t my concern – I’m pointing out that there are options IF you choose to have them.

4) Yes, and without stealth (since the changes to acro line) thieves would die to practically everything; we have no shields, no invulns, no damage transfers; just blinds.

A lot of complaints about thief are that it’s “overpowered” in some way. It isn’t overpowered, nor is it underpowered. It is time for some to entertain the notion that if they got beaten by a thief then it’s entirely possible the thief is just a better player. I beat and lose to thieves as a thief and warrior. Sometimes the thief kills me with hardly seeming to lose any life. The other day I won 2v1’s where I’m against two thieves – both as warrior and thief. Clearly the ones who beat me just are better. Clearly the 2 I beat in a single fight were worse (a lot worse to be fair).

Try playing a thief and see… you’ll win some, you’ll lose some. The one thing you notice is that when you lose, you lose bloody fast

Chips.7968:

Poxxia, not sure you’re quite getting what I am saying… I am pointing out is where statements are made that don’t stack up, not what your build choices should be.

So:

1) I’m not commenting upon the quality of reveals that classes have (or will have), I’m pointing out that the below two paraphrases are at odds with each other, yet are both being put forward by those complaining about thieves/stealth:

“No-one is going to change skills to address one class mechanic” (reveal skills).
“Everyone is changing builds to address one class mechanic”. (vamp runes).

Eh?!

It’s nothing to do with what you run, we all have build choice dilemmas. It is simply the claim that no-one will change builds to address one class mechanic followed by a claim that most change builds to address a class mechanic.
Now whether people do or don’t change their builds to address one class is their choice. But making sweeping statements as if true but only in favour of “stealth is OP” isn’t… fair.

2) Never said smoke field isn’t strong. They reduced the pulse frequency which was a good thing as it was a bit OP – but honestly it’s the 3 skill that I find makes d/p really strong; teleport with blind.

3) Again, my response wasn’t about your build choices – that’s not my problem. I was responding to the claim that once in stealth its “random cleave” is the only option; it isn’t… unless you build in a way that it is. But your choice to build that way isn’t my concern – I’m pointing out that there are options IF you choose to have them.

4) Yes, and without stealth (since the changes to acro line) thieves would die to practically everything; we have no shields, no invulns, no damage transfers; just blinds.

A lot of complaints about thief are that it’s “overpowered” in some way. It isn’t overpowered, nor is it underpowered. It is time for some to entertain the notion that if they got beaten by a thief then it’s entirely possible the thief is just a better player. I beat and lose to thieves as a thief and warrior. Sometimes the thief kills me with hardly seeming to lose any life. The other day I won 2v1’s where I’m against two thieves – both as warrior and thief. Clearly the ones who beat me just are better. Clearly the 2 I beat in a single fight were worse (a lot worse to be fair).

Try playing a thief and see… you’ll win some, you’ll lose some. The one thing you notice is that when you lose, you lose bloody fast

Sorry if I jumped to conclusions a bit fast – my bad. I am not sure, if you understand my pov, but I will try and answer to your post with the best of my ability – maybe things clear up a bit
1: The thing is, that the simplification that is made when outlining the problems at hand, can’t be covered in one-liners. One could also read the statements as “there are limits to what a build can carry in terms of flexibility and still be viable” (whatever “viable” means). And understood in that context, there is really no contradiction. And the other thing is, that I think there is some essential sequentiality in the line of thought (in the 2 lines you presented, I mean).

Saying “stealth is OP” is ofc not fair – because that is singleminded and seen in a vacuum. But as I see it, neither thieves nor none-thieves have tried stating anything that isn’t in a vacuum, so in that regard we are all guilty.

3: Some builds simply don’t work with option to counter SR. Yeah you can in some cases choose to have utility that would kitten you in an absurd way but give you that utility – but then we are again just talking about how far you can stretch a build. The choice is not real – like eating or getting a job isn’t a real option.

4: Yes – agree. And that is a problem – if you ask me. Stealth is a problematic solution, and the problem is real – in both ends of the stick, so to speak.

I have played thief, as I always do play my counters, even if I don’t like it. I am considering DrD, but I doubt I will main it – I tend to run casters.

Cheers

Relax it just means you’ll have to keep your brain connected more while in stealth.

honestly at this point it just feels like we’re the unfortunate targets of a sleazy business plan:

1. nerf only viable non-stealth reliant build option (s/d + acro) out of the meta
2. slowly introduce more and more complete counters for the only remaining sustain mechanics
3. reintroduce viable non-stealth build option for the low cost of only $49.99!
4. ?
5. profit

coglin.1867:

It saddens me to see so many post from “thief” players who do not even understand what their professional mechanic is. It is also sad to see the inaccurate claims from thief players stating you cannot stealth without initiative. Initiative is the professional mechanic, and you can stealth with runes+certain utility skills as well as certain utility and heal skills alone, using no initiative at all. My understanding is that stealth is intended to be a defencive mechanism, and it can and should be counterable. The abuse of this mechanic is what draws ire to it.

there is no parallel to what anti-stealth skills do to thief when compared to other profession’s defensive mechanics and their respective counters. stealth at this point is our only viable defensive option as we literally have no good out-of-stealth playstyles any more.

and i dont think anyone actually said any of the things you said they did, and you trying to “prove” these imaginary people otherwise only expands on how badly of a counter revealed skills are when they can entirely shutdown multiple utilities (nobody uses any stealth runes), a heal, and weapon skills.

-stats revealed training- welp, looks like perma power boost.

sinject.4607:

coglin.1867:

It saddens me to see so many post from “thief” players who do not even understand what their professional mechanic is. It is also sad to see the inaccurate claims from thief players stating you cannot stealth without initiative. Initiative is the professional mechanic, and you can stealth with runes+certain utility skills as well as certain utility and heal skills alone, using no initiative at all. My understanding is that stealth is intended to be a defencive mechanism, and it can and should be counterable. The abuse of this mechanic is what draws ire to it.

there is no parallel to what anti-stealth skills do to thief when compared to other profession’s defensive mechanics and their respective counters. stealth at this point is our only viable defensive option as we literally have no good out-of-stealth playstyles any more.

and i dont think anyone actually said any of the things you said they did, and you trying to “prove” these imaginary people otherwise only expands on how badly of a counter revealed skills are when they can entirely shutdown multiple utilities (nobody uses any stealth runes), a heal, and weapon skills.

feel like mesmers would understand that?

they have stealth elites & utilities just like theif. they rely on stealth for defense just like theif.

SlayerSixx.5763:

-stats revealed training- welp, looks like perma power boost.

yeah let’s lose access to highest dmg spell, whole defensive traitline and immob just for measy 200 power…. sounds like crappy trade off to me

Well, if the reveal is as bad as everyone says it is (I didn’t run into many scrappers), then you just have to make the most of what you’ve got until/if anet balances out things. This is assuming you actually enjoy playing thief more than you do crying.

choovanski.5462:

sinject.4607:

coglin.1867:

It saddens me to see so many post from “thief” players who do not even understand what their professional mechanic is. It is also sad to see the inaccurate claims from thief players stating you cannot stealth without initiative. Initiative is the professional mechanic, and you can stealth with runes+certain utility skills as well as certain utility and heal skills alone, using no initiative at all. My understanding is that stealth is intended to be a defencive mechanism, and it can and should be counterable. The abuse of this mechanic is what draws ire to it.

there is no parallel to what anti-stealth skills do to thief when compared to other profession’s defensive mechanics and their respective counters. stealth at this point is our only viable defensive option as we literally have no good out-of-stealth playstyles any more.

and i dont think anyone actually said any of the things you said they did, and you trying to “prove” these imaginary people otherwise only expands on how badly of a counter revealed skills are when they can entirely shutdown multiple utilities (nobody uses any stealth runes), a heal, and weapon skills.

feel like mesmers would understand that?

they have stealth elites & utilities just like theif. they rely on stealth for defense just like theif.

Mesmers do not have their condition purging, damage, and defense all tied to stealth.
Mesmers also have access to protection.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

choovanski.5462:

sinject.4607:

coglin.1867:

It saddens me to see so many post from “thief” players who do not even understand what their professional mechanic is. It is also sad to see the inaccurate claims from thief players stating you cannot stealth without initiative. Initiative is the professional mechanic, and you can stealth with runes+certain utility skills as well as certain utility and heal skills alone, using no initiative at all. My understanding is that stealth is intended to be a defencive mechanism, and it can and should be counterable. The abuse of this mechanic is what draws ire to it.

there is no parallel to what anti-stealth skills do to thief when compared to other profession’s defensive mechanics and their respective counters. stealth at this point is our only viable defensive option as we literally have no good out-of-stealth playstyles any more.

and i dont think anyone actually said any of the things you said they did, and you trying to “prove” these imaginary people otherwise only expands on how badly of a counter revealed skills are when they can entirely shutdown multiple utilities (nobody uses any stealth runes), a heal, and weapon skills.

feel like mesmers would understand that?

they have stealth elites & utilities just like theif. they rely on stealth for defense just like theif.

Mesmers do not have their condition purging, damage, and defense all tied to stealth.
Mesmers also have access to protection.

thief has access to protection too, and thief has defenses, damage, and condi clear outside of stealth too.

and anyway, its not like anyone is going to run the gyro anyway, or even any of engineers other reveals. because they all compete with far superior traits and skills.

choovanski.5462:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

choovanski.5462:

sinject.4607:

coglin.1867:

It saddens me to see so many post from “thief” players who do not even understand what their professional mechanic is. It is also sad to see the inaccurate claims from thief players stating you cannot stealth without initiative. Initiative is the professional mechanic, and you can stealth with runes+certain utility skills as well as certain utility and heal skills alone, using no initiative at all. My understanding is that stealth is intended to be a defencive mechanism, and it can and should be counterable. The abuse of this mechanic is what draws ire to it.

there is no parallel to what anti-stealth skills do to thief when compared to other profession’s defensive mechanics and their respective counters. stealth at this point is our only viable defensive option as we literally have no good out-of-stealth playstyles any more.

and i dont think anyone actually said any of the things you said they did, and you trying to “prove” these imaginary people otherwise only expands on how badly of a counter revealed skills are when they can entirely shutdown multiple utilities (nobody uses any stealth runes), a heal, and weapon skills.

feel like mesmers would understand that?

they have stealth elites & utilities just like theif. they rely on stealth for defense just like theif.

Mesmers do not have their condition purging, damage, and defense all tied to stealth.
Mesmers also have access to protection.

thief has access to protection too, and thief has defenses, damage, and condi clear outside of stealth too.

and anyway, its not like anyone is going to run the gyro anyway, or even any of engineers other reveals. because they all compete with far superior traits and skills.

what? since when?

which defenses and condi cleanse? evades you mean? yeah those are great untill you run out of dodges/ini or fight smart player that knows how to land attack between evade frames in after casts….

revenant don’t exist eh?

Uh, SA reducing damage by 25% as long as you’re stealthed. Not as powerful as prot, but it stacks with it. I know that doesn’t validate choov’s comment, buy thought I’d throw it out there.

Also, pain response, shadow step (and if you’re intent on not stealthing) signet of agility is 1 + another 1 for every nearby ally (idk cap). If you run S/D, 1 per SW2 return. Withdraw and HiS theoretically cleanse 3 (+1 on withdraw if you run trickster).

Thief has enough condi cleanse outside of stealth IMO.

Aaaaalso, if you know the player knows how to land skills in between dodge casts (treat everyone like they’re intelligent until proven otherwise), be smarter and have a little something something ready for him when your roll is about to end. Its not rocket science people.

SlayerSixx.5763:

Uh, SA reducing damage by 25% as long as you’re stealthed. Not as powerful as prot, but it stacks with it. I know that doesn’t validate choov’s comment, buy thought I’d throw it out there.

Also, pain response, shadow step (and if you’re intent on not stealthing) signet of agility is 1 + another 1 for every nearby ally (idk cap). If you run S/D, 1 per SW2 return. Withdraw and HiS theoretically cleanse 3 (+1 on withdraw if you run trickster).

Thief has enough condi cleanse outside of stealth IMO.

Aaaaalso, if you know the player knows how to land skills in between dodge casts (treat everyone like they’re intelligent until proven otherwise), be smarter and have a little something something ready for him when your roll is about to end. Its not rocket science people.

LOL 25% reduction while stealthed=protection, only Thief protection comes from Mesmer steal. Pain Response is good but hasn’t kept up with the times and doesn’t remove confusion and torment and can proc with 0 conditions, which is good my builds regeneration upkeep at least. Shadow Step is 3 per 50 seconds and wastes the teleport aspect mostly. Signet is only 1 per ally only, only good for the endurance to yourself. HiS has some of the worst healing of any skill and again doesn’t remove torment/confusion. Literally no way to stop Shortbows aftercast since they nerfed the evade besides weapon swapping.

Shadowstep.6049:

choovanski.5462:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

choovanski.5462:

sinject.4607:

coglin.1867:

It saddens me to see so many post from “thief” players who do not even understand what their professional mechanic is. It is also sad to see the inaccurate claims from thief players stating you cannot stealth without initiative. Initiative is the professional mechanic, and you can stealth with runes+certain utility skills as well as certain utility and heal skills alone, using no initiative at all. My understanding is that stealth is intended to be a defencive mechanism, and it can and should be counterable. The abuse of this mechanic is what draws ire to it.

there is no parallel to what anti-stealth skills do to thief when compared to other profession’s defensive mechanics and their respective counters. stealth at this point is our only viable defensive option as we literally have no good out-of-stealth playstyles any more.

and i dont think anyone actually said any of the things you said they did, and you trying to “prove” these imaginary people otherwise only expands on how badly of a counter revealed skills are when they can entirely shutdown multiple utilities (nobody uses any stealth runes), a heal, and weapon skills.

feel like mesmers would understand that?

they have stealth elites & utilities just like theif. they rely on stealth for defense just like theif.

Mesmers do not have their condition purging, damage, and defense all tied to stealth.
Mesmers also have access to protection.

thief has access to protection too, and thief has defenses, damage, and condi clear outside of stealth too.

and anyway, its not like anyone is going to run the gyro anyway, or even any of engineers other reveals. because they all compete with far superior traits and skills.

what? since when?

which defenses and condi cleanse? evades you mean? yeah those are great untill you run out of dodges/ini or fight smart player that knows how to land attack between evade frames in after casts….

revenant don’t exist eh?

you got boon rip and mesmer steal

If you use shadow step right, you should be able to use it for both gap closing/opening AND the cleanse. Burn is the only condition you should REALLY be worried about, since if the fight is going wrong and you’ve got torment and confusion (sounds like condi mes), you’ve got time to decide if you’re screwed and feel like skipping out and returning when the mes leaves the point. Also, I doubt anyone will want to run condi anything when reaper and scrapper drop.

By the way, how much condi cleanse do you think the other classes rock? Engis usually have no more than 2. Warrior usually only has brawlers recovery that counts for 1. No need to discuss cele d/d since they’re OP everywhere. Burn guard usually replaces CoP with PFand PF only cleanses 3 (more if they feel like running out of their circle and waiting a bit before entering in) but you shouldn’t let them do that (especially since they dont have stab on courage meaning aside from JI, they have 0 stun breaks) and you have some of the most single target CC in the game. Necro is necro, they live off of conditions. Mesmer is in an even worse position (they’d can’t build for condi cleanse without losing damage or stealth).

If anything, the ability to cleanse an unlimited amount of condis because of an unlimited amount of stealth is actually OP.

choovanski.5462:

Shadowstep.6049:

choovanski.5462:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

choovanski.5462:

sinject.4607:

coglin.1867:

It saddens me to see so many post from “thief” players who do not even understand what their professional mechanic is. It is also sad to see the inaccurate claims from thief players stating you cannot stealth without initiative. Initiative is the professional mechanic, and you can stealth with runes+certain utility skills as well as certain utility and heal skills alone, using no initiative at all. My understanding is that stealth is intended to be a defencive mechanism, and it can and should be counterable. The abuse of this mechanic is what draws ire to it.

there is no parallel to what anti-stealth skills do to thief when compared to other profession’s defensive mechanics and their respective counters. stealth at this point is our only viable defensive option as we literally have no good out-of-stealth playstyles any more.

and i dont think anyone actually said any of the things you said they did, and you trying to “prove” these imaginary people otherwise only expands on how badly of a counter revealed skills are when they can entirely shutdown multiple utilities (nobody uses any stealth runes), a heal, and weapon skills.

feel like mesmers would understand that?

they have stealth elites & utilities just like theif. they rely on stealth for defense just like theif.

Mesmers do not have their condition purging, damage, and defense all tied to stealth.
Mesmers also have access to protection.

thief has access to protection too, and thief has defenses, damage, and condi clear outside of stealth too.

and anyway, its not like anyone is going to run the gyro anyway, or even any of engineers other reveals. because they all compete with far superior traits and skills.

what? since when?

which defenses and condi cleanse? evades you mean? yeah those are great untill you run out of dodges/ini or fight smart player that knows how to land attack between evade frames in after casts….

revenant don’t exist eh?

you got boon rip and mesmer steal

so i have to rely on enemy to have prot which is not covered by all kind of crap
and actually land steal on mesmer (that needs to exist from begin with)
that is like saying thief has access to burning because he runs generosity sigil and happend to fight burn guard….

at this point, it is easier just to run with guardian or rev around that gives you boons…

SlayerSixx.5763:

Uh, SA reducing damage by 25% as long as you’re stealthed. Not as powerful as prot, but it stacks with it. I know that doesn’t validate choov’s comment, buy thought I’d throw it out there.

Also, pain response, shadow step (and if you’re intent on not stealthing) signet of agility is 1 + another 1 for every nearby ally (idk cap). If you run S/D, 1 per SW2 return. Withdraw and HiS theoretically cleanse 3 (+1 on withdraw if you run trickster).

Thief has enough condi cleanse outside of stealth IMO.

Aaaaalso, if you know the player knows how to land skills in between dodge casts (treat everyone like they’re intelligent until proven otherwise), be smarter and have a little something something ready for him when your roll is about to end. Its not rocket science people.

SResilience is trash you are already trying not get hit so why reduced damage while stealth anyway? Acro is trash, Pain Response is unreliable, shadowstep is mainly a stun breaker to get away and is not low CD, Signet of Agility doesn’t work like that , s/d is trash, it’s fine running HiS if you don’t mind non damaging conditions,constant interrupts and lighting damage, trickster is weak so are most of the tricks.

Your last paragraph should be just focus on guaranteed 2v1 and decap but don’t say thief has good cleansing out of stealth even the one in stealth was nerfed.

Anet isn’t going to remove reveal. Ok fine…but for god sake make it a bit harder to apply.

Right now, Sic Em will bypass the following:

Dodge, Los, Blind, Aegis/Block, and 99.99% sure it bypass invul.

I haven’t tested the engi’s reveal skill yet but it’s probably works the same as above.

Can you dodge an aoe reveal skill?
Well maybe for thief meta it just means that boring d/p won’t be as good.
Offhand dagger has high damage and short duration stealth which might become more reliable.
But eh it’s just engi that gets a lot of reveal and giving up rampage/moa for it is not what everyone will do.

RevanCorana.8942:

Can you dodge an aoe reveal skill?
Well maybe for thief meta it just means that boring d/p won’t be as good.
Offhand dagger has high damage and short duration stealth which might become more reliable.
But eh it’s just engi that gets a lot of reveal and giving up rampage/moa for it is not what everyone will do.

OH dagger has been gutted ever since CiS became a GM as a competitor to SRej an horror ignored since patch preview. The issue is not the reveal it’s the mentality: nerf thief SA and destroy Acro>bring more reveal and introduce Daredevil>give stealth to other classes and WvW>bring more reveal. They are the ones who made PU about stealth and introduced Trapper Runes more reveal is coming because they are bringing more stealth.

No SB#5 nerf yet so thief is definitely in a great spot.

The simplest and best way to go about any of these complaints, for both parties, (without going into deeper rooted issues with thief, ala SB #5) is to do what we’ve suggested for some time.

Have two debuffs:
Revealed – The thief is now visible to enemy players WHILE STILL being stealthed as far as stealth attacks and traits are concerned.

Exposed – Replaces the current mechanic of revealed. When a thief leaves stealth by causing damage, they must wait three seconds before entering stealth again.

The two mechanics should function separately. The fact that they are grouped is what is causing the issue in the thief community, as we have stated thousands of times it locks out our only way to regen and remove conditions without burning extremely valuable utilities.

I just can’t get myself to read all these long posts, so I’ll just add my opinion to this discussion:

Thief are the only profession that can get an entire trait line, a heal, two utility skills and one weapon skill for every weapon set shut down.

And to all that say that thief isn’t the only profession with stealth: do you really think they created these skills to deny ranger and engineer stealth? Crying for thief nerfs was the number one reason they introduced it, and it somewhat hit PU mesmers too. But don’t tell me that “other professions have stealth, so it doesn’t only affect thief”. Well, you’re right, but the other professions don’t get utility skills, a heal, weapon skills and a trait line shut down… That only happens to Mesmer and Thief.