Guild Wars 2

I feel like Lyssa rune is OP on a Thief. Now I main Thief and I didn’t realize it until I started PVPing with my Alts. The constant 15 seconds heal (Withdraw) + random Boon for 10 seconds has many advantages to winning a close fight like Aegis. This randomness takes skills away. Finally using the Elite skill gives All Boons + Remove of all conditions. This is way OP, Thieves can do this using Basilisk venom at every 45 seconds, even lower if Speced for it.

This is better than the item stolen from a Mesmer. The Mesmer item should do this instead since because its not often you get this Boon and it has many conditions to obtaining it. i.e. it has to be a Mesmer, Steal has longer cool down, and if the Mesmer dodge, not item.

This is my HMO.

Lol another thief op thread. After how many nerfs? Please. Obviously you’re a mesmer and mesmer is in a good spot now. Thief doesn’t need another nerf

Btw I main a mesmer so don’t think I’m defending thirds cause I’m a thief. I’m not.

Think the OP said he mains Thief, not mesmer ….

Anyway Lyssa is definitely one of the most powerful if not the most powerful rune set there is. I think the ‘give all buffs remove all conditions’ has an internal cooldown of 45 seconds so with the right timing every minute you get basically 5 secs of free stability/fury/whatever else and get to cleanse all your conditions. It would have been good enough if it was just give all buffs but I think the remove all conditions part makes it alittle OP. Its basically two utility skills in one move – both of them extremely useful.

If they increased the internal cooldown to say 90 seconds it would be a bit more fair. As it is thieves, warriors with their low CD signet of rage and necro’s with their flesh golem can abuse this rune’s 6th bonus proc. It really is like having 2 utility skills in one and I’m not sure another rune-set achieves that.

just let them thieves happily use the lyssa runes.

why take over their happiness?

everyone must be happy.

This is basically another whine thread about thieves warriors and necros

1. Withdraw (which is, technically speaking, our best heal) heals for +100 less health per second than warr’s Healing Signet does. In fact, compared to the healing abilities of many other classes, the thief’s healing abilities are absolutely horrid.

2. Protection and Retal, two of the most powerful boons, only last 5 seconds each as opposed to 10.

3. You’re just as likely to get something like vigor as you are likely to get something like a single stack of might.

4. Not sure I’ve ever seen stability pop up as a result of this rune.

5. If you think that getting Aegis after using Withdraw is going to change the tide of the battle (assuming that the other player isn’t unlucky enough to use some really powerful, long CD skill on you just at that moment, which tends not to happen), you probably have never used the rune or even used Aegis before.

6. Your suggestion implies that we should only use Withdraw for the rune, not for the, y’know, healing.

7. Basi Venom is an absolutely terrible elite that gives a relatively short stun on a relatively long CD (compare with the warr’s mace, for example). The only reason to run it is for Lyssa, really, or if you’re some kind of D/X BS gimmick build where you’re running Basi Venom anyways, in which case you probably won’t really want Lyssa runes for a myriad of other reasons anyhow.

8. Lyssa Rune’s #6 ability is definitely not better than Consume Plasma, and Consume Plasma is okay at best, particularly given its cast time (BTW Basi Venom has a painfully long cast as well).

9. If you’re still not convinced of how wrong you are, I would finish by stating that the +165 precision and +10% condition duration, compared to other runes/stats, is awful. We don’t need that additional condi duration, and given that 165 precision is less than a 4% damage bonus at base levels (compared to Ogre Runes’ 18.1% damage bonus just from the power increase), we can pretty much surmise that, apart from the 4 and 6 abilities, Lyssa Runes are terrible.

If none of this is convincing enough to you, then I’m not sure that any amount of reason will sway you.

The popularity of Lyssa Runes is directly tied to the popularity of bombing your enemies with massive condition pressure.

Most abilities and traits were designed around the assumption that a player will only ever have 2-5 conditions on him at most time. But with the prevalence of Singet of Malince, Agony and Perplexity Runes conditions are everywhere and abundant.

For many classes Lyssa Runes are the only counter to being bombed by a massive amount of conditions.

Arganthium.5638:

1. Withdraw (which is, technically speaking, our best heal) heals for +100 less health per second than warr’s Healing Signet does. In fact, compared to the healing abilities of many other classes, the thief’s healing abilities are absolutely horrid.

2. Protection and Retal, two of the most powerful boons, only last 5 seconds each as opposed to 10.

3. You’re just as likely to get something like vigor as you are likely to get something like a single stack of might.

4. Not sure I’ve ever seen stability pop up as a result of this rune.

5. If you think that getting Aegis after using Withdraw is going to change the tide of the battle (assuming that the other player isn’t unlucky enough to use some really powerful, long CD skill on you just at that moment, which tends not to happen), you probably have never used the rune or even used Aegis before.

6. Your suggestion implies that we should only use Withdraw for the rune, not for the, y’know, healing.

7. Basi Venom is an absolutely terrible elite that gives a relatively short stun on a relatively long CD (compare with the warr’s mace, for example). The only reason to run it is for Lyssa, really, or if you’re some kind of D/X BS gimmick build where you’re running Basi Venom anyways, in which case you probably won’t really want Lyssa runes for a myriad of other reasons anyhow.

8. Lyssa Rune’s #6 ability is definitely not better than Consume Plasma, and Consume Plasma is okay at best, particularly given its cast time (BTW Basi Venom has a painfully long cast as well).

9. If you’re still not convinced of how wrong you are, I would finish by stating that the +165 precision and +10% condition duration, compared to other runes/stats, is awful. We don’t need that additional condi duration, and given that 165 precision is less than a 4% damage bonus at base levels (compared to Ogre Runes’ 18.1% damage bonus just from the power increase), we can pretty much surmise that, apart from the 4 and 6 abilities, Lyssa Runes are terrible.

If none of this is convincing enough to you, then I’m not sure that any amount of reason will sway you.

Mate, you are insane. Every 45/60 full condition clear + full boon gain is incredibly op. I mean there is just no other way to put it. Basilik venom may suck in your opinion, precision may suck in your opinion, and even a random boon while healing may suck in your opinion, but these runes are way too powerful. No elite skill should be able to double function so often as a full cd cleanse and boon gain. It needs a 90 second icd.

Arganthium.5638:

1. Withdraw (which is, technically speaking, our best heal) heals for +100 less health per second than warr’s Healing Signet does. In fact, compared to the healing abilities of many other classes, the thief’s healing abilities are absolutely horrid.

2. Protection and Retal, two of the most powerful boons, only last 5 seconds each as opposed to 10.

3. You’re just as likely to get something like vigor as you are likely to get something like a single stack of might.

4. Not sure I’ve ever seen stability pop up as a result of this rune.

5. If you think that getting Aegis after using Withdraw is going to change the tide of the battle (assuming that the other player isn’t unlucky enough to use some really powerful, long CD skill on you just at that moment, which tends not to happen), you probably have never used the rune or even used Aegis before.

6. Your suggestion implies that we should only use Withdraw for the rune, not for the, y’know, healing.

7. Basi Venom is an absolutely terrible elite that gives a relatively short stun on a relatively long CD (compare with the warr’s mace, for example). The only reason to run it is for Lyssa, really, or if you’re some kind of D/X BS gimmick build where you’re running Basi Venom anyways, in which case you probably won’t really want Lyssa runes for a myriad of other reasons anyhow.

8. Lyssa Rune’s #6 ability is definitely not better than Consume Plasma, and Consume Plasma is okay at best, particularly given its cast time (BTW Basi Venom has a painfully long cast as well).

9. If you’re still not convinced of how wrong you are, I would finish by stating that the +165 precision and +10% condition duration, compared to other runes/stats, is awful. We don’t need that additional condi duration, and given that 165 precision is less than a 4% damage bonus at base levels (compared to Ogre Runes’ 18.1% damage bonus just from the power increase), we can pretty much surmise that, apart from the 4 and 6 abilities, Lyssa Runes are terrible.

If none of this is convincing enough to you, then I’m not sure that any amount of reason will sway you.

1. Withdraw is our best heal I agree, but I’m not arguing which heals is better…you obviously use it for the up time every 15 seconds compliment Lyssa #4.

2. Still 5 seconds doesn’t make it insignificant.

3. Don’t forget to mention the rest the boon.

4. Agreed

5. Your statement here contradicts, “which tends not to happen” in other words it does happen, i.e a block Backstab/Eviscerate, could turn the tide.

6. See number one.

7. Basi is awesome, I never use it as an opener, I use it as my Ace card for that clutch win. With Lyssa I use it for Conditions removal if I’m stacked.

8. Removing all conditions makes it all better.

9. +10% condition duration is great, for Serpents Touch and Lotus Poison. Precision isn’t great but its there and the powerful stats of 4 and 6 more than makes up for it. I’d use Lyssa Runes over Orgre Runes any day.

Removing this rune wouldn’t necessary be nerfing Thieves, perhaps nerfing all classes. Here is proof I main Thief.

Soilder.3607:

Mate, you are insane. Every 45/60 full condition clear + full boon gain is incredibly op. I mean there is just no other way to put it. Basilik venom may suck in your opinion, precision may suck in your opinion, and even a random boon while healing may suck in your opinion, but these runes are way too powerful. No elite skill should be able to double function so often as a full cd cleanse and boon gain. It needs a 90 second icd.

Maybe if you stop using “should” and just continuing to express the things you’ve already stated, your argument would be a bit more convincing.

Ways thief can remove conditions:
-Shadowstep (stunbreak also) – 3 conditions
-Signet of agility – 1 condition (also refill endurance)
-Shadow return – 1 condition (also cast time)
-Shadow’s embrace – major adept trait – 1 condition per 3 seconds of stealth
-Pain responese – major master trait – remove bleed/burn/poison under 75% hp every 30 seconds

I’m not taking into consideration hide in shadows and withdraw as they are both remove particular conditions;
Now compare these to any class condition removal and you’ll fing that Lyssa runes is actually almost only one viable choice for thief to stay active in a combat.
Thats how the game designed.

SerratedOcean.7398:

1. Withdraw is our best heal I agree, but I’m not arguing which heals is better…you obviously use it for the up time every 15 seconds compliment Lyssa #4.

2. Still 5 seconds doesn’t make it insignificant.

3. Don’t forget to mention the rest the boon.

4. Agreed

5. Your statement here contradicts, “which tends not to happen” in other words it does happen, i.e a block Backstab/Eviscerate, could turn the tide.

6. See number one.

7. Basi is awesome, I never use it as an opener, I use it as my Ace card for that clutch win. With Lyssa I use it for Conditions removal if I’m stacked.

8. Removing all conditions makes it all better.

9. +10% condition duration is great, for Serpents Touch and Lotus Poison. Precision isn’t great but its there and the powerful stats of 4 and 6 more than makes up for it. I’d use Lyssa Runes over Orgre Runes any day.

Removing this rune wouldn’t necessary be nerfing Thieves, perhaps nerfing all classes. Here is proof I main Thief.

2. No, but that does need to be put into consideration.

3. Well, there are also boons like swiftness… Yeah…

5. Eh… Maybe I’m just tired, but I think you get the point of what I mean. In my experience, the probability of getting Aegis and subsequently being able to block a “tie-turning” skill at the same time are very, very small, and that’s assuming you don’t dodge/blind/etc the skill, either, which is very possible.

7. Although Basi is good for ending a fight, its cast time is nearly as long as its stun, and generally speaking, it’s used with BS to end a fight quickly. TBH, though, unless a person will go into downed state very quickly (<3k health after BS) after using BS, I don’t know that it’s that useful to use, especially since it’s the only stun in our kitten nal. Not to say that it’s useless, but it can be stunbroken, especially by players who have developed a twitch reaction to the combination (like me- had to learn the hard way).

8. Was mostly looking at the boons there (for whatever reason- guess I am tired), though I will say that while one all-condi cleanse is useful specifically against SoSpite (assuming you’re not dead or about to die by the time that insanely long cast time ends), due to the rate of overall condi application in the meta.

9. Ehhhhhhhh… It’s an extra second of poison (assuming it isn’t condi cleansed), and the additional .4 seconds of weakness- as good a condi as it is- probably isn’t going to mean much, ultimately. I’m not going to deny that having a small mix of condi buffs into many builds that focus on power is a good thing, because it is (hell, my 10/0/0/30/30 S/D has 300 condi damage added to it by its very nature), but the primary focus of the vast majority of thief builds and especially D/X builds is power/crits, in which case condis aren’t going to mean much. The 4 and 6 buffs mostly make up for the precision “debuffs”, but whether that’s greater than the critical damage, Rock Dog, 18% damage from power and 4% damage from the final Ogre Runes trait is highly debatable.

is this for Hotjoin or soloQ/tPvP?

• On Hotjoin, survival is meaningless so a full condi clear would seem always worthless to a hot joiner

• Basi venom on Hotjoin would seem like a terrible elite because of the zergs. On tPvP/soloQ Basi is the best elite there is

• all booms are sooooo OP when fighting another thief, specially since u can block the others teef opener/Basi… if you play thief, you know how painful aegis on guardian is.

but yea, if it’s Hotjoint. survival is useless, Basi is worthless. anything else they are the best

SerratedOcean.7398:

Arganthium.5638:

1. Withdraw (which is, technically speaking, our best heal) heals for +100 less health per second than warr’s Healing Signet does. In fact, compared to the healing abilities of many other classes, the thief’s healing abilities are absolutely horrid.

2. Protection and Retal, two of the most powerful boons, only last 5 seconds each as opposed to 10.

3. You’re just as likely to get something like vigor as you are likely to get something like a single stack of might.

4. Not sure I’ve ever seen stability pop up as a result of this rune.

5. If you think that getting Aegis after using Withdraw is going to change the tide of the battle (assuming that the other player isn’t unlucky enough to use some really powerful, long CD skill on you just at that moment, which tends not to happen), you probably have never used the rune or even used Aegis before.

6. Your suggestion implies that we should only use Withdraw for the rune, not for the, y’know, healing.

7. Basi Venom is an absolutely terrible elite that gives a relatively short stun on a relatively long CD (compare with the warr’s mace, for example). The only reason to run it is for Lyssa, really, or if you’re some kind of D/X BS gimmick build where you’re running Basi Venom anyways, in which case you probably won’t really want Lyssa runes for a myriad of other reasons anyhow.

8. Lyssa Rune’s #6 ability is definitely not better than Consume Plasma, and Consume Plasma is okay at best, particularly given its cast time (BTW Basi Venom has a painfully long cast as well).

9. If you’re still not convinced of how wrong you are, I would finish by stating that the +165 precision and +10% condition duration, compared to other runes/stats, is awful. We don’t need that additional condi duration, and given that 165 precision is less than a 4% damage bonus at base levels (compared to Ogre Runes’ 18.1% damage bonus just from the power increase), we can pretty much surmise that, apart from the 4 and 6 abilities, Lyssa Runes are terrible.

If none of this is convincing enough to you, then I’m not sure that any amount of reason will sway you.

1. Withdraw is our best heal I agree, but I’m not arguing which heals is better…you obviously use it for the up time every 15 seconds compliment Lyssa #4.

2. Still 5 seconds doesn’t make it insignificant.

3. Don’t forget to mention the rest the boon.

4. Agreed

5. Your statement here contradicts, “which tends not to happen” in other words it does happen, i.e a block Backstab/Eviscerate, could turn the tide.

6. See number one.

7. Basi is awesome, I never use it as an opener, I use it as my Ace card for that clutch win. With Lyssa I use it for Conditions removal if I’m stacked.

8. Removing all conditions makes it all better.

9. +10% condition duration is great, for Serpents Touch and Lotus Poison. Precision isn’t great but its there and the powerful stats of 4 and 6 more than makes up for it. I’d use Lyssa Runes over Orgre Runes any day.

Removing this rune wouldn’t necessary be nerfing Thieves, perhaps nerfing all classes. Here is proof I main Thief.

Dat hotjoin thief tho’.

dDuff.3860:

Ways thief can remove conditions:
-Shadowstep (stunbreak also) – 3 conditions
-Signet of agility – 1 condition (also refill endurance)
-Shadow return – 1 condition (also cast time)
-Shadow’s embrace – major adept trait – 1 condition per 3 seconds of stealth
-Pain responese – major master trait – remove bleed/burn/poison under 75% hp every 30 seconds

I’m not taking into consideration hide in shadows and withdraw as they are both remove particular conditions;
Now compare these to any class condition removal and you’ll fing that Lyssa runes is actually almost only one viable choice for thief to stay active in a combat.
Thats how the game designed.

eh Idk man. Most of those are pretty lack luster (with the amount of conditions that fly around) which is why in sPvP we choose to run lyssa.

Shadowstep has a long cooldown which equates to 1 condition every 20 seconds. Most of us run this for the stun break. I’d like to see it clear the condis on the first teleport not the second as well.

Signet of agility is in a good spot.

Shadow return is kind of meh and only works well when you have < 3 condi’s on you.

Shadow’s embrace is by far our strongest condition removal but not everyone plays stealth.

Pain response can trigger even when you don’t have those conditions on you.

Lyssa gives terrible bonuses compared to other rune sets outside of the 6th bonus… the only reason people run it is absurd amount of conditions and CCs flying around atm… maybe devs should the cause and not the way to deal with issue