Guild Wars 2

Hey everyone!, Crysis and Ferox here from Team Radioactive (retired). As me and ferox move on from Guild Wars 2 because of other games coming out, we thought it would be a good idea to leave a post about the one thing Guild Wars 2 has struggled with since launch – sPvP Balance. Me and ferox have played through every meta/balance patch and have collected the “goods” and “bads” from each meta/balance patch to construct this post.

Guild Wars 2 in its current state is Damage meta, specifically condi meta. However this condi meta is way different to the other known condi metas in the past.

Differences of this condi meta to other condi metas:
1) current condi meta is spike-orientated, where 1(-3) condition is the main damage dealer
IE: (Thieves-> poison, Guards-> burn, Revenant-> torment/poison/confusion, Mesmer -> confusion/torment)……
and can be stacked incredibly fast becoming so potent it can “one-shot” the poor soul that ran out of clears/support from his teammates.

2) The main difference about the CURRENT condi meta to other metas is LOW on time, HIGH on DOT Damage (doesn’t last long, but hits as hard/harder than physical/direct damage). Previous iterations of the condi meta have been close to this one, but not nearly as potent as this meta (HIGH on time, LOW on DOT Damage -> conditions lasted longer if not removed, but did less damage per tick) Also DOT=Damage over Time.

This condi meta was developed due to:
1) added/removal of amulets, removal of RNG damage sigils, and the obvious additions to each class. (revenant, specializations). I could invest more time into this post going over each class/specialization, but i’m sure people already know what builds I am talking about.

2) Guild Wars 2 balance has shifted from Stats to Skills/traits. Yes I know, to get condi damage you have to be wearing a condi damage amulet, however think about the sustain that classes get, it’s not from stats anymore. Vitality and Toughness are shredded through by this condi meta. Toughness is pretty much ignored and Vitality is cut through easily with the amount of damage these condi-meta builds can do. Skills/traits is what saves you now, pretty much completely.

3) The shift from Stats to Skills/traits made for a horrible balance decision: Elite specializations, and combining several traits into one trait, or transferring a trait into the profession itself (active always, without need of traits/skills).

This condi-meta, in my opinion, is awkward to say the least… The builds do not seem to have a high skill ceiling at all, which generally means someone could learn this build in a couple of hours and play it extremely well due to high reward-low risk mechanics. The damage in this meta is too fast/much (team fights end fast, insane amounts of cleave, 1v1s tend to end rather quickly)

Now it’s time to balance!

There should always be goals when balancing, my top 3 are:
1) High skill ceiling
2) Viable builds for support, damage/flankers/duelers. (Even though gw2 doesn’t have a “holy trinity”)
3) Builds that induce a mental-game between you and your opponent (ie: using resources outside of skills/traits which can be kiting, prediction, anti-prediction) basicly outplay potential for different scenarios.

What needs to be changed:
1) Base stat Health Pools need to become the same for all classes.
-I know this is a hard one to swallow but it’s vital to better balance.
-This does not mean all classes will have the same health due to traits, skills, amulets, gear etc.

2) Bring back the amulets that had the best and highest skill-ceiling metas.
-Yes, this means soldiers, and celestial amulet. Even though people might have salty feelings towards the cele amulet, during its short time in Guild Wars 2 we experienced what sPvP should feel like. The cele-meta had massive, and exploratory build diversity without it being full cheese (bunker mesmer, condithief, burn guard… the list goes on and all the cheese builds have something in common, which is the next point ill make). To continue about the great things about the cele meta is the skill ceiling broke all other skill ceilings in any other meta, it allowed every class a chance to become an extreme force due to players committing large amounts of time to practice their class. Looking at our current meta, most players play up to 4 classes each which would be unheard of in the cele-meta due to the constant drive to become the best at your class (people still multiclassed back in the cele-meta, i’m not saying that did not happen, rather a multi classer usually could not compete against a main at such classes).

3) This will be the shocker that will require Anet to take a leap of faith.
-Make all elite specializations PvE-only.
-Scary… right? Actually not really, elite specializations are built into the lore/expansion etc.. which is all pve.. Nothing will change for PvE or WvWvW in this aspect.
-What about the new weapons tho? This is the one thing I was not sure of, because sadly… the weapons are tied to the specializations. There are two roads here: 1) remove the weapons from the classes in PvP-only, which will require Anet to safely take the weapons out of the characters and mail it to them to be put into inventory, also they should put a reset on the Account-bound feature for those weapons. The 2) option is to rework the weapons to be able to exist without elite specializations which will set a precedent for all new weapons introductions.

I have more, but ill end it here and let the community digest it and hopefully a dev will read.

Thanks for the read and no, I will not put a TLDR; because you should read all of it to insure you understand the post entirely. I did this post fast, so excuse anything I miss wrote.

You missed the part where high cleanse post HoT incentivized burst condi builds.

That said condi burst was always a thing that was possible, but fewer build ran those builds. This is based on my experience running condi almost since launch.

saerni.2584:

You missed the part where high cleanse post HoT incentivized burst condi builds.

That said condi burst was always a thing that was possible, but fewer build ran those builds. This is based on my experience running condi almost since launch.

im talking about the meta. not made up builds or Those builds now work in this meta, not previous, either way, i don’t think i missed anything.

So the “MASSIVE” change, if I’m reading you right, is to simply revert back to a pre-HoT season? Get rid of HoT additions, bring back the pre-HoT amulets?

I guess I was hoping for better than that. If all we can do is look back to the glory days, then I don’t think literally trying to return to them is going to save us. I have higher hopes for the next expansion introducing new elite specs that may help to balance out the lopsidedness having only 1 elite spec for each class introduced.

AliamRationem.5172:

So the “MASSIVE” change, if I’m reading you right, is to simply revert back to a pre-HoT season? Get rid of HoT additions, bring back the pre-HoT amulets?

I guess I was hoping for better than that. If all we can do is look back to the glory days, then I don’t think literally trying to return to them is going to save us. I have higher hopes for the next expansion introducing new elite specs that may help to balance out the lopsidedness having only 1 elite spec for each class introduced.

Well I left out what I think Anet should balance that meta, but I do think we need to take a step back to take 2 steps forward. And do not get to excited about elite specializations, its not like its a new class, just a new trait line and weapon that will most likely be completely broken on release.

I wish i can start replying/adding but forums are broke.

Lol, runs build for years effectively, told “it’s made up.”

That’s my feedback, take it or leave it I guess.

saerni.2584:

Lol, runs build for years effectively, told “it’s made up.”

That’s my feedback, take it or leave it I guess.

Sorry never saw you compete in any tourney, and you are saying your build was meta? I don’t care about the effectiveness of it, and the effectiveness of it is probably only from your experiences. Im talking about the majority builds that are played which we give the word “meta” too. If you need a example check out metabattle.com

saerni.2584:

Lol, runs build for years effectively, told “it’s made up.”

That’s my feedback, take it or leave it I guess.

Also, if your build is anything like you describe in your signature. Pistol dagger was never meta. This post is also only-sPvP related, any build that works in WvWvW is not what im talking about.

Thunderbird.4298:

This condi meta was developed due to:
1) added/removal of amulets, removal of RNG damage sigils, and the obvious additions to each class. (revenant, specializations). I could invest more time into this post going over each class/specialization, but i’m sure people already know what builds I am talking about.

2) Guild Wars 2 balance has shifted from Stats to Skills/traits. Yes I know, to get condi damage you have to be wearing a condi damage amulet, however think about the sustain that classes get, it’s not from stats anymore. Vitality and Toughness are shredded through by this condi meta. Toughness is pretty much ignored and Vitality is cut through easily with the amount of damage these condi-meta builds can do. Skills/traits is what saves you now, pretty much completely.

3) The shift from Stats to Skills/traits made for a horrible balance decision: Elite specializations, and combining several traits into one trait, or transferring a trait into the profession itself (active always, without need of traits/skills).

Removing amulets was so stupid. Just limits the variety in the game by definition. They need to add a bunch of them back if they want to stop their game dying.

And the shift from stats to traits was also terrible for the game. But there is no going back from the power creep of traits.

Your changes are stupid. Most of the trait power creep was not from specialisations. Adding celestial back is stupid. Healing power and toughness should not be on the same amulet ever.

Yeah the game now is a little more about dumping your CC, condi bomb, or dodge so that it slightly outpaces theirs through latency than it is about strategy and order. It’s about builds, spam and composition more than it is rotation, anticipation, and learning your particular opponent’s method. We can tell just by how often platinum members make really poor choices with where to go and when.

Thunderbird also cc is op and too easy to simply cc someone and drop them dead with instant spike dmg.

Very frustrating to be fighting a ranger and instantly drop dead because of massive spike dmg before you can react.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Thunderbird.4298:

This condi meta was developed due to:
1) added/removal of amulets, removal of RNG damage sigils, and the obvious additions to each class. (revenant, specializations). I could invest more time into this post going over each class/specialization, but i’m sure people already know what builds I am talking about.

2) Guild Wars 2 balance has shifted from Stats to Skills/traits. Yes I know, to get condi damage you have to be wearing a condi damage amulet, however think about the sustain that classes get, it’s not from stats anymore. Vitality and Toughness are shredded through by this condi meta. Toughness is pretty much ignored and Vitality is cut through easily with the amount of damage these condi-meta builds can do. Skills/traits is what saves you now, pretty much completely.

3) The shift from Stats to Skills/traits made for a horrible balance decision: Elite specializations, and combining several traits into one trait, or transferring a trait into the profession itself (active always, without need of traits/skills).

Removing amulets was so stupid. Just limits the variety in the game by definition. They need to add a bunch of them back if they want to stop their game dying.

And the shift from stats to traits was also terrible for the game. But there is no going back from the power creep of traits.

Your changes are stupid. Most of the trait power creep was not from specialisations. Adding celestial back is stupid. Healing power and toughness should not be on the same amulet ever.

Well, specializations are the power creep. Question, if specializations are so not the problem, why are they used on every meta build, further more, you limit your self by not going into specializations (can’t compete against ppl that do). Anet didn’t force ppl into specializations.. its because that trait line is hella better than any normal trait line.

Axl.8924:

Thunderbird also cc is op and too easy to simply cc someone and drop them dead with instant spike dmg.

Very frustrating to be fighting a ranger and instantly drop dead because of massive spike dmg before you can react.

I didn’t put in the post but I 100% agree, CC has always been a hard thing for GW2 devs to balance, im pretty sure they decided to just yolo give people more evades, stun breaks etc.. to ease the suffering.

A point not mentioned is unblockables.

While I enjoy and use unblockables heavily (an evolution I had to make during the DH season), it feels cheesey and punishes counterplay. When someone reads his opponent well, and pops a block at the perfect moment, his opponent (me) just makes sure the dolorous blow arrives with unblockable status. So the guy attempting to make a good counterplay is punished, and the guy (me) just spamming an unblockable ability doesn’t even bother reading his opponent and just makes sure important skills hit through defenses.

Unblockables are necessary in current meta. In the past you only have few well timed aegis or single block skills. Now a lot of classes have duration blocks which render perfect timing obsolete.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Unblockables are necessary in current meta. In the past you only have few well timed aegis or single block skills. Now a lot of classes have duration blocks which render perfect timing obsolete.

the elite specializations added so many block/evades/invluns etc.. ofc they needed to give players a way to hit their target. The devs dug themselves a hell hole….

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Unblockables are necessary in current meta. In the past you only have few well timed aegis or single block skills. Now a lot of classes have duration blocks which render perfect timing obsolete.

Right that’s what I meant by the DH meta 1-2 seasons back, where the block spam became insane and we all got unblockable buffs to compensate.

It ties in with OP’s point about a tendency towards un-counterable spam lately

Thunderbird.4298:

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Unblockables are necessary in current meta. In the past you only have few well timed aegis or single block skills. Now a lot of classes have duration blocks which render perfect timing obsolete.

the elite specializations added so many block/evades/invluns etc.. ofc they needed to give players a way to hit their target. The devs dug themselves a hell hole….

Yeah unfortunately that’s the power creep we’re currently living in. Look back on any MMO and you can find that their PvP suffer the same fate with expansion packs. GW2 may have dodge the bullet on level cap, but no game has been able to satisfy both “selling expansion” and “avoid power creep”.

Back to the topic, you can probably tell they’re resistant to change current meta builds with only few exceptions. Most recent patches are more about buffing unused traits. With the amount of buffs on those core traits lately, I’m actually curious on how the meta will shift if they manage to pull their ass off for removing HoT in pvp.

I’m all going for removing unblockables provided that other layers of power creep (evade/blocks/invul) are removed together. Taking baby steps backward is even more frustrating than taking no steps at all.

How will the the meta feel fresh and change if theres no new elite specs being added? I can understand thing feeling bad rn but we only had 1 row of elite specs.

Even if the new ones are broken on release if in a few weeks later they are toned down to Hot elite specs lvls then that would double the existing build. Adding more amulets to the mix will also make things better.

Btw op im curious to what game you are moving on esp so close to the gw2 expac release.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Thunderbird.4298:

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Unblockables are necessary in current meta. In the past you only have few well timed aegis or single block skills. Now a lot of classes have duration blocks which render perfect timing obsolete.

the elite specializations added so many block/evades/invluns etc.. ofc they needed to give players a way to hit their target. The devs dug themselves a hell hole….

Yeah unfortunately that’s the power creep we’re currently living in. Look back on any MMO and you can find that their PvP suffer the same fate with expansion packs. GW2 may have dodge the bullet on level cap, but no game has been able to satisfy both “selling expansion” and “avoid power creep”.

Back to the topic, you can probably tell they’re resistant to change current meta builds with only few exceptions. Most recent patches are more about buffing unused traits. With the amount of buffs on those core traits lately, I’m actually curious on how the meta will shift if they manage to pull their ass off for removing HoT in pvp.

I’m all going for removing unblockables provided that other layers of power creep (evade/blocks/invul) are removed together. Taking baby steps backward is even more frustrating than taking no steps at all.

Arena net also loses money that way say that they do that and pvp is fine you still have no reason to buy hot andanet loses money from that.

Im all for a more enjoyable pvp experience but this would just cut our a huge part of the expac sales for anet.

And they cant lock something behind the expac without it providing something that existing thing dont (for example stat types).

And they can go the eso w8 where they locked their spvp behind the expac.

zealex.9410:

How will the the meta feel fresh and change if theres no new elite specs being added? I can understand thing feeling bad rn but we only had 1 row of elite specs.

Even if the new ones are broken on release if in a few weeks later they are toned down to Hot elite specs lvls then that would double the existing build. Adding more amulets to the mix will also make things better.

Btw op im curious to what game you are moving on esp so close to the gw2 expac release.

Waiting for Destiny 2, but i have been busy with school, other than that, me and ferox have been grinding WoW and Overwatch. Too be honest, I dont know if I can let myself get sucked into Guild Wars 2 again.. the disappoint is too much… The amount of time i put into this game.. into PvP… honestly population is pretty low for PvP right now.. Ranked is horrible trash.. AT is just the same ppl over and over. Maybe ill come back for Gw3.

Thunderbird.4298:

zealex.9410:

How will the the meta feel fresh and change if theres no new elite specs being added? I can understand thing feeling bad rn but we only had 1 row of elite specs.

Even if the new ones are broken on release if in a few weeks later they are toned down to Hot elite specs lvls then that would double the existing build. Adding more amulets to the mix will also make things better.

Btw op im curious to what game you are moving on esp so close to the gw2 expac release.

Waiting for Destiny 2, but i have been busy with school, other than that, me and ferox have been grinding WoW and Overwatch. Too be honest, I dont know if I can let myself get sucked into Guild Wars 2 again.. the disappoint is too much… The amount of time i put into this game.. into PvP… honestly population is pretty low for PvP right now.. Ranked is horrible trash.. AT is just the same ppl over and over. Maybe ill come back for Gw3.

Idk man i always find expanc launch to be the height of a game so idk what ti tell you things are miserable rn so i understand you stance but i mean you never know the expac might be pretty nice. I dot tell you to pre order just maybe keep an eye on it.

Big thanks for topic and discussion! Here is a stream of thought in response to various points in various posts and on the overall topic/suggestions. Mostly follows a pseudo time-line. I apologize for not creating a more cohesive structure.

1) Elite specs are the way ANET has decided to advance the game; suggesting they get removed is probably counterproductive to fruitful discussion because it isn’t realistic. Good starting point for discussion though!

2) Burst condi existed previously: terrormancer. Condi-overload and chain fear to achieve kills.

3) Condi had low presence in early metas because of support guard. There were a few options: (1) apply overload of condies to cover high damage burst condies (terrormancer), (2) apply high damage condies with reasonable frequency (cele ele, burn guard), or (3) some level of both (side-point dueling ranger builds: traps, spirits). Condi mesmer struggled to make meta because team fight cleave and slow(er) illusion generation made it difficult to support team fights or hold a side node (stealth and avoidance reliance).

4) There are counters to each mechanic. Builds become meta when they can apply overwhelming force to eat through potential counters and apply their effect.

5) Generally, pre-HOT meta builds had more weaknesses because professions were initially designed for these to exist. This made meta builds more reliant on a team to help cover in areas they lacked. ANET supported this design (see spirit ranger nerf) up until the cele ele reign.

6) Hard counters were more apparent pre-HOT because of these increased weaknesses and some professions (low mesmer population in NA and low necromancer population in EU) struggled more than others.

7) Fast forward to post-HOT and professions are given new tools to round out their toolbox, making cele ele design a standard.

8) Through various (rapid) iterations, meta undergoes multiple changes from bunker to today.

9) Meta builds are well rounded (cele ele+) and still focus on overwhelming application of one or a few mechanics to achieve effectiveness. Builds are less dependent on the team and more capable of filling alternative roles on the fly. Anything that isn’t meta (doesn’t use the elite spec) is less well rounded, less flexible, and more of a liability because of increased vulnerability to counterplay.

10) Conquest will always weed out less flexible builds because of how it forces players to split away from the team. A greater focus on team play might increase diversity by allowing builds to go “all in” and utilize alllies to cover their weaknesses. We can see this evolution by the drop off in necro population in the last community tournament for EU because of the meta build’s greater dependency on support.

11) Hard counters are not fun and are not okay (see thief/mesmer interaction for majority of pre-HOT). Increasing vulnerabilities decreases chance of counterplay if team fights are not also focused.

12) The game is a rotational one and players are drivers of meta builds. Skill comes in rotating, and fascilitating rotations, to apply the correct overwhelming mechanic to the most vulnerable target more often and in a more effective manner than the opposing team.

What can reasonably be done?

1. Build, alter, or develop game modes and maps/map mechanics that focus heavily on team proximity and team play to encourage greater specialization and interdependence.
2. Use precision skill/balance iteration to reduce the synergies that make a build so effective. Apply strategy across all over-performing meta builds that pop up. (Current approach)
3. Use future elite specializations to open alternate builds and increase diversity. Bonus points if they include mechanisms that can punish current mechanics in some way that doesn’t feel “cheesy”, increasing vulnerabilities and forcing counter-building (and by extension build diversity).

Allarius.5670:

Big thanks for topic and discussion! Here is a stream of thought in response to various points in various posts and on the overall topic/suggestions. Mostly follows a pseudo time-line. I apologize for not creating a more cohesive structure.

1) Elite specs are the way ANET has decided to advance the game; suggesting they get removed is probably counterproductive to fruitful discussion because it isn’t realistic. Good starting point for discussion though!

2) Burst condi existed previously: terrormancer. Condi-overload and chain fear to achieve kills.

3) Condi had low presence in early metas because of support guard. There were a few options: (1) apply overload of condies to cover high damage burst condies (terrormancer), (2) apply high damage condies with reasonable frequency (cele ele, burn guard), or (3) some level of both (side-point dueling ranger builds: traps, spirits). Condi mesmer struggled to make meta because team fight cleave and slow(er) illusion generation made it difficult to support team fights or hold a side node (stealth and avoidance reliance).

4) There are counters to each mechanic. Builds become meta when they can apply overwhelming force to eat through potential counters and apply their effect.

5) Generally, pre-HOT meta builds had more weaknesses because professions were initially designed for these to exist. This made meta builds more reliant on a team to help cover in areas they lacked. ANET supported this design (see spirit ranger nerf) up until the cele ele reign.

6) Hard counters were more apparent pre-HOT because of these increased weaknesses and some professions (low mesmer population in NA and low necromancer population in EU) struggled more than others.

7) Fast forward to post-HOT and professions are given new tools to round out their toolbox, making cele ele design a standard.

8) Through various (rapid) iterations, meta undergoes multiple changes from bunker to today.

9) Meta builds are well rounded (cele ele+) and still focus on overwhelming application of one or a few mechanics to achieve effectiveness. Builds are less dependent on the team and more capable of filling alternative roles on the fly. Anything that isn’t meta (doesn’t use the elite spec) is less well rounded, less flexible, and more of a liability because of increased vulnerability to counterplay.

10) Conquest will always weed out less flexible builds because of how it forces players to split away from the team. A greater focus on team play might increase diversity by allowing builds to go “all in” and utilize alllies to cover their weaknesses. We can see this evolution by the drop off in necro population in the last community tournament for EU because of the meta build’s greater dependency on support.

11) Hard counters are not fun and are not okay (see thief/mesmer interaction for majority of pre-HOT). Increasing vulnerabilities decreases chance of counterplay if team fights are not also focused.

12) The game is a rotational one and players are drivers of meta builds. Skill comes in rotating, and fascilitating rotations, to apply the correct overwhelming mechanic to the most vulnerable target more often and in a more effective manner than the opposing team.

What can reasonably be done?

1. Build, alter, or develop game modes and maps/map mechanics that focus heavily on team proximity and team play to encourage greater specialization and interdependence.
2. Use precision skill/balance iteration to reduce the synergies that make a build so effective. Apply strategy across all over-performing meta builds that pop up. (Current approach)
3. Use future elite specializations to open alternate builds and increase diversity. Bonus points if they include mechanisms that can punish current mechanics in some way that doesn’t feel “cheesy”, increasing vulnerabilities and forcing counter-building (and by extension build diversity).

I started reading but stopped at #2.. terrormancer was not like burn gaurd or condi thief. Fire (burn) did not stack back then, so it was def not like this current meta.

There is no condi meta . As u can see easily from here :
https://metabattle.com/wiki/Conquest
on 9 classes only 2 classes in meta use a condi hybrid amulet. And they are hybrid becouse they uses direct damage and condi damage togegher. Full condi builds ( for example the ones based on rabid and wanderer ) are not viable at all for the complete lack of vitality. try them if you don’t belive it .

One thing that ircs me is when i’m in a party get cced and bursted by 2 guys and instantly dead before i can even react.Even 1 thief or 1 ranger can pull out enough ccs adn bleeds to kill you nearly instantly.Its just plain obscene the amount of damage and ccs in 1 go.

Now i encountered a bunch of trolls but this is def a problem.I mean:If i get 5 ccs and i manage to somehow get them off me with heal or with staff (if they don’t kill me before i do so) They will just instantly put 10ccs on me and slow me and immob etc and bleeds and i’l be out of ways to get the ccs off me before someone bursts me down if my team isn’t keeping them occupied.Bleeds i can transfer instantly, along with burns and that kinda stuff.CCs i cannot.

Thunderbird.4298:

I started reading but stopped at #2.. terrormancer was not like burn guard or condi thief. Fire (burn) did not stack back then, so it was def not like this current meta.

Whelp, I guess that is your prerogative. Generally, if you wan to encourage good discussion, you don’t run at the first sign of disagreement, but instead ask for clarification.

Not that you did, but clarifying my statement …

1) No build pre-HOT is like what we have today. You need to compare pre-HOT builds to pre-HOT metas and how the game was played then. I am NOT suggesting Terrormancer is like burn Guard or condi Thief of today, or even that Terrormancer was exactly like burn Guard back then.

2) Keeping Terrormancer in context of its early meta, NOT what we have today. How do YOU define burst or burst build? Lots of damage in a short period of time, usually with a period of relief between episodes of damage. How did Terrormancer play? Condi-saturate in a short period of time to cover chain fears that dealt respectable damage (for the time). It isn’t burst LIKE a burn Guard, but it is a burst PLAYSTYLE (for that time and meta)

Feel free to disagree, everyone has a different perspective. Your response is … unfortunate. Pre-HOT metas look to be part of the conversation you wanted to have (looking at the past), but isn’t the main focus you hoped for (what can be done about the game). To that end, getting lost in the technicalities of prior metas, and assuming it is an indicator of the validity of other statements, is … well, your prerogative.

Allarius.5670:

Thunderbird.4298:

I started reading but stopped at #2.. terrormancer was not like burn guard or condi thief. Fire (burn) did not stack back then, so it was def not like this current meta.

Whelp, I guess that is your prerogative. Generally, if you wan to encourage good discussion, you don’t run at the first sign of disagreement, but instead ask for clarification.

Not that you did, but clarifying my statement …

1) No build pre-HOT is like what we have today. You need to compare pre-HOT builds to pre-HOT metas and how the game was played then. I am NOT suggesting Terrormancer is like burn Guard or condi Thief of today, or even that Terrormancer was exactly like burn Guard back then.

2) Keeping Terrormancer in context of its early meta, NOT what we have today. How do YOU define burst or burst build? Lots of damage in a short period of time, usually with a period of relief between episodes of damage. How did Terrormancer play? Condi-saturate in a short period of time to cover chain fears that dealt respectable damage (for the time). It isn’t burst LIKE a burn Guard, but it is a burst PLAYSTYLE (for that time and meta)

Feel free to disagree, everyone has a different perspective. Your response is … unfortunate. Pre-HOT metas look to be part of the conversation you wanted to have (looking at the past), but isn’t the main focus you hoped for (what can be done about the game). To that end, getting lost in the technicalities of prior metas, and assuming it is an indicator of the validity of other statements, is … well, your prerogative.

Sorry I did not mean to shut down conversation or whatever. I guess I did want you to clarify more on the terrormancer. Yes I guess you can classify terrormancer as a condi-spike build, however, the main difference here is that its a necro, a class that was made to be dishing out numerous condis (way more than just 1 condition). In my original post I left out necros on purpose, and I also did not say that condi-spike should not be a viable choice in the meta, the issue with this meta is that when you put together a composition, lets say for Automated Tournament, its beneficial to the team to bring a Condi thief, burn guard, condi mesmer, etc.. compare this to other condi-metas where your condi players was a squishy engi that needed peels and same for the terromancer,.. sure they can stack up conditions fast, maybe even very similar to the amount damage being put out now, but the way they dished out condis was not due to dodging, blocking, it required them to actually use damage skills and use cds. This meant that if they missed their condi-spike they had to re-grp and try again when skills got of cds, this allowed for counter-play…. man do you remember when we could counterplay in Conquest? it feels like ever since specializations they left that out. The “counterplay” we have now is unblockables, triple dodges, spamming skills off cd without a thought, because cds are lowcool down and do way too much in this meta.. hell most of the damage done in this meta is due to simply dodging/blocking/short cds. its sad.

@ Thunderbird.4298

On your changes:

1. Equalize base health
2. Re-enable amulets
3. No elite specs in PvP

You’re going about it all the wrong way.

ANet will NEVER not allow elite specs in PvP. They’re a major selling point of expansions, and if players can’t play something they enjoy, it turns them off from that game mode. Inability to play what you play somewhere else has been a persistent problem with PvP since the game launched.
Elite specs have to be nerfed across the board. This includes in PvE, where top PvEers also know that elite specs are too strong compared to core; the unused elite specs are just not PvE-friendly. However, nerfing elite specs is a tangled web: many elite specs rely on over-buffed abilities and traits to distinguish themselves from core. Without that level of power, it doesn’t feel different enough. It may require creating core elite trait lines from current core lines and re-balancing the remainder to be less powerful.

Rolling back amulet restrictions isn’t the correct path either. Instead, we need to eliminate all 4-stat amulets and then allow mix & match of 3-stat combos across 3-4 items (not just an amulet) so that players can achieve a proper stat balance for their builds. With the nerf of elite specs and power creep from raw numbers of stats, the combos with multiple defense options can be restored.

Base health equalization isn’t something which is imperative to do if you do the other things. The base profession was designed with health pools in mind, so you’d have to re-balance a lot to raise or lower a few health numbers.

Exedore.6320:

@ Thunderbird.4298

On your changes:

1. Equalize base health
2. Re-enable amulets
3. No elite specs in PvP

You’re going about it all the wrong way.

ANet will NEVER not allow elite specs in PvP. They’re a major selling point of expansions, and if players can’t play something they enjoy, it turns them off from that game mode. Inability to play what you play somewhere else has been a persistent problem with PvP since the game launched.
Elite specs have to be nerfed across the board. This includes in PvE, where top PvEers also know that elite specs are too strong compared to core; the unused elite specs are just not PvE-friendly. However, nerfing elite specs is a tangled web: many elite specs rely on over-buffed abilities and traits to distinguish themselves from core. Without that level of power, it doesn’t feel different enough. It may require creating core elite trait lines from current core lines and re-balancing the remainder to be less powerful.

Rolling back amulet restrictions isn’t the correct path either. Instead, we need to eliminate all 4-stat amulets and then allow mix & match of 3-stat combos across 3-4 items (not just an amulet) so that players can achieve a proper stat balance for their builds. With the nerf of elite specs and power creep from raw numbers of stats, the combos with multiple defense options can be restored.

Base health equalization isn’t something which is imperative to do if you do the other things. The base profession was designed with health pools in mind, so you’d have to re-balance a lot to raise or lower a few health numbers.

I completely and utterly disagree with the mix&match… u will get things like bunker mesmer back or worse. Oh and they can 100% make the specializations PvE-only. Also, think about all the players that got completely kittened because of the specializations? it killed off all build diversity.. changed every build, and class to something that was not in the original design for this game… do u wonder why popoulation is low? they made their game foreign to returning/loyal players.

Thunderbird.4298:

I completely and utterly disagree with the mix&match… u will get things like bunker mesmer back or worse.

And your proposal to bring back soldier’s or cleric’s amulet won’t? What’s the difference between picking one soldier’s amulet item and 3 which add up to the same?

Oh and they can 100% make the specializations PvE-only. Also, think about all the players that got completely kittened because of the specializations? it killed off all build diversity.. changed every build, and class to something that was not in the original design for this game… do u wonder why popoulation is low? they made their game foreign to returning/loyal players.

This is just you being jaded. Some people like core, while others enjoy the playstyle of elite specializations. All your idea does is alienate the current group in favor of the old. You need to balance core with HoT elite so that both are viable. You’ll have the diversity you desire in doing so.

People left because HoT elites made the game brain-dead. They need nerfed across the board.

Talking about variety, it’s not normal that warriors has to take the same 2 skills 8balanced stance and zerker stance) since the beginning to have any chance at all. Greatest example of limited variety which kills long term enjoyment.

Thunderbird.4298:

Now it’s time to balance!

What needs to be changed:
1) Base stat Health Pools need to become the same for all classes.
-I know this is a hard one to swallow but it’s vital to better balance.
-This does not mean all classes will have the same health due to traits, skills, amulets, gear etc.

Que?

Good luck balancing thieves, eles and guardians with this change…

This game’s balance has been tweaked for years around these health pools and changing that would require gutting everything else to not completely break they game.

It’s not hard to swallow, it’s just a ridiculous suggestion. I can’t see how anyone wouldn’t see there would be a ton of problems with this change.

Maybe some of the other ideas were good, but when I saw this on it just kinda killed any credibility.

Thunderbird.4298:

Bring back the amulets that had the best and highest skill-ceiling metas.
-Yes, this means celestial amulet.

I can agree to everything except this.

I remember when the meta builds were Cele D/D Ele, Cele Shoutbow Warr, Cele Engi, Cele Signet Necro. The only classes that didn’t run Cele was Medi Guard and Thief.

It was dark times.
Don’t make me relive it.

I’d rather we remove stats and amulets all together and reinvent the PvP system from scratch than add Cele back in.

Bring back cele!!
My rev cravessssss it

it’s not equipment/gear. it’s professions. when gear is the issue, like celestial amulet was, you’ll find that it’s specifically only going to work well with a handful of professions and builds that are otherwise fine without said gear. every single S-tier celestial user was instantly knocked down to B or A-tier upon the removal of celestial amulet, elementalist even dropped down to being one of the worst professions in pvp after it was removed.

the reason chronomancer, for example, is so over the top (or at least massively overrewarding for the amount of skill required) right now isn’t because of one specific amulet, it’s solely because:

1. these builds have massive damage mitigation access to the point where there are almost no vulnerability windows. chronomancer can easily chain invuln -> block -> evade -> teleport -> invuln -> protection/aegis -> evade -> clone body blocking -> block -> heal -> dodge -> teleport etc. to the point where keeping pressure will fully exhaust the attacker’s offensive options before the chrono’s defensive options run up. the same can be said about Dragonhunter even post nerf due to the following point i’ll talk about, where offensive multicasting acts as a defensive measure as well:
2. these builds have massive pressure output thanks to multicast ability. touching back on Dragonhunter, a DH can simultaneously have symbols, traps, weapon/virtue attacks, and utilities attacking you at once, which means you are GUARANTEED to take damage as the overlap between these sources of damage will effectively eat through most defensive measures that can be taken while attacking. the same is completely true with Chronomancer as well, which can have clones/phantasms, fields, shatters, and weapon skills hitting you all at once.

as someone who recently came back after a long hiatus, this is just the same old problem as before. these builds simply have too much access to multicasting.

if you think im wrong, then think as to why everyone is complaining about condition s/d Thief? because of it’s multicast output compared to power Thief, whose builds can at most only have weapon attacks and steal going on at the same time. condition thief has a triple hit dodge (which is a huge deal, as it negates aegis, blind, body blocking pets, arcane shield, shield of wrath etc. a LOT easier), caltrops fields, steal, utilities (venoms/traps), and weapon skills. this allows thief to fufill both categories needed to be overpowered that i mentioned above, as opposed to simply having high damage mitigation access with daredevil power Thief. THIS is what is causing “condition spike” builds and this alone. you can mess with gear as much as you want, standardize gear to your heart’s content, but the problem will remain the same: it’s the PROFESSIONS at fault.

vorpal.1497:

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Unblockables are necessary in current meta. In the past you only have few well timed aegis or single block skills. Now a lot of classes have duration blocks which render perfect timing obsolete.

Right that’s what I meant by the DH meta 1-2 seasons back, where the block spam became insane and we all got unblockable buffs to compensate.

It ties in with OP’s point about a tendency towards un-counterable spam lately

What makes me shake my head is ANET’s argument for Guardians low base HP was that they had a lot of blocks etc. Then every other class got access to a ton of unblockble attacks.

Back to the original topic. I agree that something needs to be done especially on condi burst ability. Secondly the amount of passive safety nets like passive stun breaks or invulns is crazy.

Multicasting is indeed a problem, but so are the conditions themeselves. Changing the professions can only do so much. If I could have my way, I would simply REMOVE damage from conditions and make them status ailments that had an impact on combat without doing damage. An example?
Poison: Prevents any and all sources of healing until it is removed.
Bleeding: Replace Crippled.
Conditions that IGNORE defensive stats will never work well with ANY combat system. Surprise Surprise, condi is roiling out of control in a defensive/stunbreak heavy meta.

Ignoring all else, BURNING as a debuff needs to be massively reworked, on both the damage and stacking side of things. For a debuff that does so much damage with just one stack, having it be able to reach upwards of 15 or more in plain stupidity no matter how you look at it. Either cap it like you do boon durations or remove it. This isn’t rocket science.

Lost Elegy.9276:

Multicasting is indeed a problem, but so are the conditions themeselves. Changing the professions can only do so much. If I could have my way, I would simply REMOVE damage from conditions and make them status ailments that had an impact on combat without doing damage. An example?
Poison: Prevents any and all sources of healing until it is removed.
Bleeding: Replace Crippled.
Conditions that IGNORE defensive stats will never work well with ANY combat system. Surprise Surprise, condi is roiling out of control in a defensive/stunbreak heavy meta.

Ignoring all else, BURNING as a debuff needs to be massively reworked, on both the damage and stacking side of things. For a debuff that does so much damage with just one stack, having it be able to reach upwards of 15 or more in plain stupidity no matter how you look at it. Either cap it like you do boon durations or remove it. This isn’t rocket science.

in terms of balance the best approach is always the simplest. the simpler and more concise the changes, the easier it is to reasonably predict how they will actually end up affecting the games balance. changes like this would require professions to be built from the ground up again which would be insanely resource intensive on the devs (they can barely make minor incremental changes to cooldowns and cast times every 3 months) and would probably put us in a worse place than when we started.

imo they need to make the commitment to actually pay attention to pvp balance and make surgical changes and see what happens as opposed to funneling all their resources into PvE like they have since launch and ignoring pvp 361 days of the year.

Lost Elegy.9276:

Multicasting is indeed a problem, but so are the conditions themeselves. Changing the professions can only do so much. If I could have my way, I would simply REMOVE damage from conditions and make them status ailments that had an impact on combat without doing damage. An example?
Poison: Prevents any and all sources of healing until it is removed.
Bleeding: Replace Crippled.
Conditions that IGNORE defensive stats will never work well with ANY combat system. Surprise Surprise, condi is roiling out of control in a defensive/stunbreak heavy meta.

Ignoring all else, BURNING as a debuff needs to be massively reworked, on both the damage and stacking side of things. For a debuff that does so much damage with just one stack, having it be able to reach upwards of 15 or more in plain stupidity no matter how you look at it. Either cap it like you do boon durations or remove it. This isn’t rocket science.

Funny is, i proposed this 2 years ago. Condi only as debuffs, and balance skills dmg output accordly to that. Condi should not do the dmg is doing now, making condi stackable was the worst mistake anet could do

How about ‘No’.

The most OP builds in GW2 PvP history uses celestial/soldier amulets:
cele ele, cele/soldier warrior and bunker mesmer(potentially cele engi as well).

And these builds have much lower skill floor than all of the current meta builds combined.

Oh BTW, I don’t agree that current builds have low skill ceiling. There is still vast skill level difference between even top tier players.

current meta is no condi meta. there are condi builds in the meta, for example condi necro, but there are power builds aswell, like the power shiro. I wouldnt say the meta right now is condi nor power, even though i think its more power than condi tbh. All the support classes (builds) are running power based amulets. Dh Meta build is power, rev meta build is power, thief is power even though the s/d condi build is maybe just as strong right now. Only full Meta condi build right now is actually condi nec. Mesmer is leaning towards condi aswell ofc, but has good power dmg aswell.

The problem that gw2 pvp has for many years now is that anet was adapting everything to having basically the same capabilitys in everything.
There are no unique classes anymore, everything is kind of the same boring ****.

The game has a constant “hybrit-meta” for many years now, even if it was sometimes more more dmg based and maybe sometimes tankier.

There was only a short time when spvp/tpvp in gw2 was rly awesome, it was like untill 1year after launch. There have been alot of bugs, lags and some more balance issues maybe, but it was more skill based then everything you have had since then.

Back then you actually had classes with there own unique capability in movement, dmg, duelling, tank, the builds where mostly split in more berzerk builds and tankier ones, today everything is the same hybrit stuff.

Today you are having a boring hybrit meta, everything has kind of alot of dmg but is also having a ridiculous amount of heal and cleansing spam, with a spam of everything and only zergfights, due to that the skill/competetive aspect of the game totaly fell under the table. You see how they are actually just filling the mode with farming pve people who are chasing after rewards and dailys.

Pvp is dead and it was on dying for years now. Anet had the expansion to fix it up and now the second one is coming, but they haven´t ever seriously bothered about pvp and they probably won´t.
There are constantly posts added like this for years now, everysince with the same problem and anet eighter doesn´t care or has no plan of how to deal with pvp.

Very sad. But they appearing are totally incompetent when it comes to wvw/pvp in this game. TOTALLY. ;(

Nah its fine, things change you just need to adapt.

You call these “massive”? I’d barely call this “cosmetic”.
As LoL player i can easily point out today why gw2 pvp sucks.

1. No clarity – in LoL i can clearly see which champ does what. GW2? 5v5 clusterkitten.

2. No counterplay. You get zero information about enemy and ally builds until you’re already in 5v5 rumble, and that’s not the best place to study your opponent.

3. No defensive stats. Just take a look at “tanks”. They are all based on their skills not stats. Chronomancers, Dragonhunters, Tempests. Need i say what happens to one class that actually does uses stats for defense? (necro).

4. No balance. How often do we get balance passes? Once every 3 moths? That’s so bad it’s not even funny. And are classes balanced? Hell no. Don’t even get me started on “core spec vs elite” balancing.

5. It’s all too random!!
Teamates – random!
Build they have? Who knows!
Professions you get in your team – random (and duplicates allowed!)
What roles does each player play – who knows!

And i’m supposed to “learn” this kitten and get good with all that randomness. Yeah you do it, i’m not wasting my brainpower for this clusterkitten.

this meta isn’t as bad as everyone makes it out to be, im a vet player for gw2 and i returned back to this game about 5 months ago, and started Rank Spvp again about a month ago.

I was instantly burst down in my first game back due to condi being over whelming on my Power spec ranger. However finding an understanding on how to counter such a simple game play and learning other classes makes it super easy to to climb out from bronze/silver and even gold.

Just a month in after being placed bronze and literally after understanding the skills/rotation and counter styles of most/every class after 20-30 games it has actually made the game much more easier to understand climb to gold. I haven’t had a single issue with anything besides “everyone” thinking that condi is the proper way to go in spvp all the time. I currently main Necro and Engi for Gold level of game play which i reality isn’t “high” but for someone whos been MIA for such a long time and a month of getting back was able to get to gold with no issue it isn’t bad at all. Power Base engi build to hold a point, cleanse condi, and bunker people around really takes some skills to understand and not just give into "condi’ is the meta so im going to play that.

In short of what I’m trying to get at is that this game isn’t that bad when it comes to “condi” cleansing if you know how to properly time your cleanse / build a team to help with such issues. This season was weird without a doubt and has been interesting for most parts but WHEN i played Spvp Rank for season 1/2 were complete ass because the system was rigged to the point where it didn’t even make sense to play rank. So much abusing going on then, the current season seemed “easier” and more enjoyable now because it’s A LOT less issues to deal with besides a few horrible builds made to be easy for others to pick up a class and just “win” easily.