Guild Wars 2

Why is it Anet always puts in high AI low skill builds into the game?

Please for the love of god gut it. Buff necro’s elsewhere to compensate IDC….just no more AI BS builds plz.

/discuss

?_? The minions barely ever attack. This is not the new turret engie…

Don’t load up aoe condies on the minions and you’re fine.

Salamander.2504:

?_? The minions barely ever attack. This is not the new turret engie…

Don’t load up aoe condies on the minions and you’re fine.

Ok i know i’m going to get necro players here that are going to say anything to defend their class, and basically ignore facts etc. That’s fine but pay attention to the part I said compensate them elsewhere.

MM Necro is low skill AI build. It needs to go along with ANY other High AI build.

I don’t play MM (because the minion AI is awful, they rarely attack), so I’m not defending the build I play. Nor am I ignoring facts, because you have not yet provided any.

I do play necro, but you should know that I main Guard…

So which part of them is OP then? How are you dieing, exactly?

I honestly don’t think I’ve fought a single minion master yet…

I did watch one though who destroyed a burn guardian who tried to do the instant 12 stacks of burning thing. Unfortunately for him that involved using Purging Flames and hitting like 2 of the minions. Didn’t even have time to cleanse before the by then probably 15-20 stacks got sent back. I thought it was hilarious.

The minions, when traited properly, heal the player with their attacks (when they attack, which is quite infrequent and erratic). They can also be traited to burst into poison clouds when they die, effectively consistently applying -33% healing to all enemies on point.

Are they difficult to deal with? Yes, but so are any bunker builds. If you focus the Necro hard enough, or AoE the minions from farther than melee range, you can quite take them out. They’ve never been spectacular, and certainly have never been as game-changing/breaking as a Turreteer bunker build was pre-hotfix.

They are tanky but don’t deal nearly the damage a turret engi did, and minions die much easier. And since many of them are melee, the AI is terrible compared to ranged, stationary turrets.

MM takes as much “skill” to play as any other build, which isn’t saying much anyway. It isn’t remotely the passive problem that turret engi was, as playing with the minions requires a lot of active use of skills in order to keep them alive and on their target, and they don’t have remotely the passive defense, CC, and hard to avoid damage of turrets.

Actually, the only time I’ve ever had any real trouble with MM Necros was when there were two of them on point. Since AoE only hits 5 at a time, and a full MM Necro can have 6 minions out, that means there are 14 targets on point at the same time. AoE suffers from extreme diminishing returns with added targets beyond 5, so even the weak minions don’t always die.

Nah man, just bust out the mad aoes can give them the phantasm treatment.

I will bite for the sake of education. Because they are the prime defense mechanism of minionmancer itself including deception in team fights,just kill the lifestealing minion and they are nothing.

Is this just an alt account?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Minion-Master-Necro-is-the-new-Turret-Engi/first#post5212434

new? MMs have been around forever, they’ve been underestimated forever!
my MM has barely changed between the patches

Liewec.2896:

new? MMs have been around forever, they’ve been underestimated forever!
my MM has barely changed between the patches

Besides that it only takes,two lines to fully buff them and the third can be used as a power/condi/DS variant right?

OP, your zerker thief isn’t meant to be able to beat every single build 1v1.

MM necro is a solo-bunkerish build that is weak in teamfights. Its sole purpose is to contest a point in a 1v1 / 2v2 setting. The build has plenty of counters, such as kiting around the AI (you can just hop up a ledge, then hop back down, then hop back up, etc. and the minions will run around forever), or AOEing the minions. Or, if you already have the point, you can just run in a big circle and dodge the Dagger3 (immobilize) so you barely take any damage and continue to let the points tick in your favor.

Liewec.2896:

new? MMs have been around forever, they’ve been underestimated forever!
my MM has barely changed between the patches

Prove them wrong then,and show them how brokenly youve became this current patch

I disagree. If anything, the AI should be buffed, they are very weak to AOE even when traited. A dead flesh wurm/blood fiend means dead necro. The golem is still bugged and doesn’t attack most of the time.

ResJudicator.7916:

OP, your zerker thief isn’t meant to be able to beat every single build 1v1.

Thieves have always had a hard time with MMs. They were actually stronger in the old meta, where thieves were more prevalent. Hammer warriors/guardians and eles still destroy MMs.

You can’t win a 1v1 against a bunker MM necro. If you kill his minions, he has enough time to exit DS and resummon minions before you can do any significant damage. Wait till after he uses DS 4 and 5, because then he is basically stuck with life blast, which is a long cast time and does pitiful damage on bunker. Really, you need to 2v1 him, or find another fight.

T raw,

We all know you play Thief. Wasn’t it like always that Thieves had problems with MMs?

Besides, you can just outrotate it. Or use two-three Cluster Bombs and minions should be a goner.

MM is like the old turret engi lol? I haven’t seen 3 MM on each team every time i play.

Pros-
-Great at 1v1 encounters(DESTROYS bad glass cannons)
-Bad players will have a hard time targeting you. Or target you first.
-You don’t die easily. Clerics/Soldiers
-Fun

Cons-
-Moa kills all minions and puts them on cool down. A bug that has been made a feature.
-Good players(also a bit class dependent) can kite minions, and ignore you.
-AI is bad. Minions will bug out and not attack, get stuck on a pebble, etc.
(Necros use a targeted ability for an “attack” button and will summon minions in battle for more reliable minions.)
-Terrible at team fights(aoe damage everywhere)

One of the things that excites me about HOT is a viable MM with *AI improvements.

*Minion AI upgrade only available with purchase of HOT:3

I see most of you missed the point.

It’s not about class or what class i play. Its all about AI builds being in the game period. If they actually took skill I’d be ok with it….unfortunately in GW2 we’ve yet to see that.

So I say nerf AI builds into the ground since they never require one iota of skill to succeed with.

thx

T raw.4658:

Its all about AI builds being in the game period.

This is why no one is taking you seriously

zapv.8051:

T raw.4658:

Its all about AI builds being in the game period.

This is why no one is taking you seriously

Ah the old cherry pick a statement and disregard the rest.

Try again

You’re still wrong. MM requires that the player manage his minions and control his opponent’s movements so that the minions don’t spend the entire fight kitten ing around. The class also has terrible mobility, which means the player needs to have good map and rotational awareness to be at the right spot at the right time. You can easily spot the difference between good MM players and bad ones.

Despite your protestations to the contrary, it really is about what class you play (thief) and your inability to beat them. Otherwise, you’d realize that the class isn’t as braindead as you claim, and that it serves a specific role, which is to prevent you from solo decapping a point. It only seems “braindead” to you because the build counters yours, so you feel helpless.

T raw.4658:

I see most of you missed the point.

It’s not about class or what class i play. Its all about AI builds being in the game period. If they actually took skill I’d be ok with it….unfortunately in GW2 we’ve yet to see that.

So I say nerf AI builds into the ground since they never require one iota of skill to succeed with.

thx

any and all AI builds take skill to be able to play them at a higher level of play (even turret engi did) just because they have a low entry skill level doen’t mean they cap out at a low skill level

T raw.4658:

zapv.8051:

T raw.4658:

Its all about AI builds being in the game period.

This is why no one is taking you seriously

Ah the old cherry pick a statement and disregard the rest.

Try again

How can it be cherry picking if you said that was your point?

ResJudicator.7916:

You’re still wrong. MM requires that the player manage his minions and control his opponent’s movements so that the minions don’t spend the entire fight kitten ing around. The class also has terrible mobility, which means the player needs to have good map and rotational awareness to be at the right spot at the right time. You can easily spot the difference between good MM players and bad ones.

Despite your protestations to the contrary, it really is about what class you play (thief) and your inability to beat them. Otherwise, you’d realize that the class isn’t as braindead as you claim, and that it serves a specific role, which is to prevent you from solo decapping a point. It only seems “braindead” to you because the build counters yours, so you feel helpless.

Although it is fun to stand on point doing nothing while your minions chase someone around and eventually down him. However, when that happens, the MM is not to blame.

T raw.4658:

Why is it Anet always puts in high AI low skill builds into the game?

Erm perhaps because like most MMOs there are people of different levels of ability and you need to have something for everyone, I mean really if you are so bothered about “skill” why are you are even playing GW2, it doesn’t have a high skill cap, you should be playing SC2 or CS, or better yet play something that takes a real level of skill like chess or tennis, GW2 is a joke in comparison.

T raw.4658:

I see most of you missed the point.

It’s not about class or what class i play. Its all about AI builds being in the game period. If they actually took skill I’d be ok with it….unfortunately in GW2 we’ve yet to see that.

So I say nerf AI builds into the ground since they never require one iota of skill to succeed with.

thx

You misunderstand what made the turret engineer the king of all AI builds and why it needed to be toned down. It wasn’t simply that it was an AI build, it was that every turret had a ranged attack which meant the turrets had a near 100% hit chance so long as you were in range, which meant there wasn’t much you could do to avoid the damage once in the engineer’s area of control. On top of that the turrets were incredibly difficult to damage, which meant the turrets could be placed on point without fear of any AoE short of a staff ele, which were almost never played because of their dagger wielding cousins.

Minion Master necromancers don’t have either of these advantages. Only three of their minions are ranged, one being their heal skill that needs to consistently hit to heal (unlike the Healing Turret which could heal the user regardless of if it could hit the enemy or not) and another being their only stunbreak and teleport which means they need to be positioned off point in a strategic location to be used properly. The heavy hitting minion, Flesh Golem, is pure melee, as well as the little flesh rats. These minions need to be positioned properly to land their damage, which requires active input from the player to pin down the enemy long enough for them to hit. And because the minions don’t have the tankiness of the turrets any degree of AoE damage can be a hard counter to the build, making it near unusable in large team fights. Finally, the active effects of the minions aren’t temporary boosts to what the minions are already doing, as is the case with turrets, but rather control effects that have to be timed properly to get the most out of. All this results in a pretty active play style that requires constant vigilance of multiple entities on the field at once and good management of control effects.

What the minion master does best, however, is hard countering the condition burst set ups that are currently running rampant all over the place, and for that I say thank you minion masters.

LOL people are actually trying to say AI builds take skill

Wow…..

T raw.4658:

LOL people are actually trying to say AI builds take skill

Wow…..

AI builds don’t take skill, but you are also completely wrong comparing them to turret engi. That one required no player input at all. It was likely the most broken spec the game has ever seen.

T raw.4658:

zapv.8051:

T raw.4658:

Its all about AI builds being in the game period.

This is why no one is taking you seriously

Ah the old cherry pick a statement and disregard the rest.

Try again

Cherry picking assumes that I took what you said out of context, which I didn’t. Try coming up with an actual argument instead of just raging like a 3 year old child. I haven’t seen you give one reason as to why this build should get nerfed other than it being a minion build. Since that isn’t a reason to nerf something, you have made no valid points.

I’ll now explain why MM necro should not get any nerfs. First, it is only good, and I use that word loosely, at holding home point. Even then it gets outclassed by many other home point bunker builds. Second, it doesn’t deal high burst damage, and if you actually want to kill someone you need to chain cc skills in a good rotation which is the definition of skillful play (on the other hand I’ve seen terrible mesmers and thieves kill people simply because they do a lot of damage). Third, it isn’t that strong of a tank, only being able to hold a point vs 2 good players for a limited time, certainly not as long as bunker guards or the old turret engi. Finally, minions are awesome, and the MM necro build should at least perform well enough to take in an unranked game, which is where it sits currently. Certainly, this build that gets hard countered by any serious amount of aoes, and is close to useless in teamfights doesn’t need any nerfs.

T raw.4658:

LOL people are actually trying to say AI builds take skill

Wow…..

Try running MM in tPvP on decent MMR. Now, come on! Prove your supreme knowledge of Necromancer and AI management! When you’re ready, make a video of your gameplay being effective.

I count on you, T raw. Show us your skill!

Untill then, please go back to your Thief and L2P. Cheers!

style.6173:

T raw.4658:

LOL people are actually trying to say AI builds take skill

Wow…..

AI builds don’t take skil

That’s all you needed to say. Thank you for your input.

ps. I never said they were as strong as turret engies just that they are a heavy AI no skill build.

zapv.8051:

T raw.4658:

zapv.8051:

T raw.4658:

Its all about AI builds being in the game period.

This is why no one is taking you seriously

Ah the old cherry pick a statement and disregard the rest.

Try again

it isn’t that strong of a tank, only being able to hold a point vs 2 good players

So what you’re saying is it’s only good against 2 good players thus is balanced……

See I can do that too.

T raw.4658:

style.6173:

T raw.4658:

LOL people are actually trying to say AI builds take skill

Wow…..

AI builds don’t take skil

That’s all you needed to say. Thank you for your input.

ps. I never said they were as strong as turret engies just that they are a heavy AI no skill build.

You snipped too fast, let me send you the rest.

“(…) you are also completely wrong comparing them to turret engi. That one required no player input at all. It was likely the most broken spec the game has ever seen [prepatch].”

T raw.4658:

zapv.8051:

T raw.4658:

zapv.8051:

T raw.4658:

Its all about AI builds being in the game period.

This is why no one is taking you seriously

Ah the old cherry pick a statement and disregard the rest.

Try again

it isn’t that strong of a tank, only being able to hold a point vs *2 good players(

So what you’re saying is it’s only good against 2 good players thus is balanced……

See I can do that too.

“This is why no one is taking you seriously”

I’ll just copy and paste from what others have already said, unless you need further elaboration from what’s already been stated.

Rym.1469:

T raw.4658:

LOL people are actually trying to say AI builds take skill

Wow…..

Try running MM in tPvP on decent MMR. Now, come on! Prove your supreme knowledge of Necromancer and AI management! When you’re ready, make a video of your gameplay being effective.

I count on you, T raw. Show us your skill!

Untill then, please go back to your Thief and L2P. Cheers!

So I play a thief….wtf does that have to do with me hating low skill AI builds? Absolutely nothing.

I’ll make a suggestion to you. Reread my posts and understand my problem is NOT with necros per say but no skill AI builds. If thieves had a no skill AI build I’d be the 1st to champion the removal of said build.

Heck I’ve been known to champion the removal of condi thieves….in fact I don’t even consider them thieves at all ^^

Mesmers and Thieves kill people out from stealth without any effort..
MM Necro isn’t competitive, but killed some random guy, everyone loses their minds.

Morwath.9817:

Mesmers and Thieves kill people out from stealth without any effort..
MM Necro isn’t competitive, but killed some random guy, everyone loses their minds.

I’ll give you mesmers as they are quite over the top right now. I don’t think you’ll find very many saying that isn’t true.

Thieves aren’t spiking you 100-0 from stealth mate. Its NOT possible, and only 1 specific build is going to reliably 100-0 you as a thief. If you actually die to that build then you were severely outplayed…..like you honestly need to be afk.

I need my champion illusionist before its over the top im on 46 wins now

T raw.4658:

Morwath.9817:

Mesmers and Thieves kill people out from stealth without any effort..
MM Necro isn’t competitive, but killed some random guy, everyone loses their minds.

I’ll give you mesmers as they are quite over the top right now. I don’t think you’ll find very many saying that isn’t true.

Thieves aren’t spiking you 100-0 from stealth mate. Its NOT possible, and only 1 specific build is going to reliably 100-0 you as a thief. If you actually die to that build then you were severely outplayed…..like you honestly need to be afk.

So, you’re trying to say that 11k Backstabs doesn’t happen? ;-)

is this a troll? MM was nerf long time ago, they suck so much now. their AI has low hp, do less damage, heck most of the time they dont even attack. this is a L2P issue. AI build are only strong holding points 1v1. i actually cringe when i see an MM or turret engi in my team i always think chance of losing is bigger. btw i main war incase you might think i main necro.

Morwath.9817:

T raw.4658:

Morwath.9817:

Mesmers and Thieves kill people out from stealth without any effort..
MM Necro isn’t competitive, but killed some random guy, everyone loses their minds.

I’ll give you mesmers as they are quite over the top right now. I don’t think you’ll find very many saying that isn’t true.

Thieves aren’t spiking you 100-0 from stealth mate. Its NOT possible, and only 1 specific build is going to reliably 100-0 you as a thief. If you actually die to that build then you were severely outplayed…..like you honestly need to be afk.

So, you’re trying to say that 11k Backstabs doesn’t happen? ;-)

You only run with 11k?

T raw.4658:

Morwath.9817:

T raw.4658:

Morwath.9817:

Mesmers and Thieves kill people out from stealth without any effort..
MM Necro isn’t competitive, but killed some random guy, everyone loses their minds.

I’ll give you mesmers as they are quite over the top right now. I don’t think you’ll find very many saying that isn’t true.

Thieves aren’t spiking you 100-0 from stealth mate. Its NOT possible, and only 1 specific build is going to reliably 100-0 you as a thief. If you actually die to that build then you were severely outplayed…..like you honestly need to be afk.

So, you’re trying to say that 11k Backstabs doesn’t happen? ;-)

You only run with 11k?

How much hp can have S/D Fresh Air Eles, if they want to do as much damage as Thieves and/or Mesmers?

Anyway going back to your question, no. I don’t run any number of HP right now, don’t even que until this post-patch mess will be fixed and PvP will be enjoyable once again.

From my experience mm necro seems to be a decent necro build, so it should probably be nerfed. Don’t mind mesmers, eles, and guardians though, those classes take actual skill.

T raw has obviously never watched MM gameplay. Or hed know it has one of the longest cc chain requirments in the game in order to land damage. Seeing as the main body is a dedicated CC bot for the minions.

But then I guess we can’t expect too much from someone that probably shadowsteps directly to the necro and wonders why hte bone minions hurt.

I swapped from a power necro to MM necro after the patch and the difference is huge. It is alot easier to play than power (mainly because of the high survivability) and imo doesn’t take much skill. I feel it’s the best bunker you can get atm. However, the minions are extremely stupid. Sometimes they won’t attack at all, especially so when it requires moving around the corner to do so.

I don’t think it needs to be nerfed, perse. Maybe tweak some traits a little. This is hardly the most OP build/profession out there atm.

I have over 5k hours on necro and MM is like the hardest build to play effectively for me. If you think you can just afk with the minions attacking for you that doesn’t really work. It takes a lot of effort positioning them, then you have to chain skills to land them, and all of this is while praying to the RNG gods they actually path correctly and actually attack.

Ofc if some random person yolos in with zerker/marauder amulet and tries to fight on a cap point with a MM I can see where they’d have trouble.

Morwath.9817:

T raw.4658:

Morwath.9817:

T raw.4658:

Morwath.9817:

Mesmers and Thieves kill people out from stealth without any effort..
MM Necro isn’t competitive, but killed some random guy, everyone loses their minds.

I’ll give you mesmers as they are quite over the top right now. I don’t think you’ll find very many saying that isn’t true.

Thieves aren’t spiking you 100-0 from stealth mate. Its NOT possible, and only 1 specific build is going to reliably 100-0 you as a thief. If you actually die to that build then you were severely outplayed…..like you honestly need to be afk.

So, you’re trying to say that 11k Backstabs doesn’t happen? ;-)

You only run with 11k?

How much hp can have S/D Fresh Air Eles, if they want to do as much damage as Thieves and/or Mesmers?

Anyway going back to your question, no. I don’t run any number of HP right now, don’t even que until this post-patch mess will be fixed and PvP will be enjoyable once again.

OK thanks for bringing this up.

With marauders you will have 17k hp with lots of defenses compared to thieves (since you insist on bringing up thieves) and more burst. For a thief to achieve the burst that ele has you go full signet YOLO build and we all know how that goes.

As for mesmer they are an anomaly atm. Seems they are balanced (if we can even call it that) around zerker vs cele.

This thread is about skilless AI builds not thief vs Ele. If you really want to make a thread debating Teef v Ele I’ll participate but hope to God Anet doesn’t read it for the sake of your class.