Guild Wars 2

I would agree this is somewhat true, atleast when you get to ruby.

People in sapphire below I have no idea how you cannot win matches, you will eventually win because you do not lose Tiers.

Even losing 3 times then winning 1 gives you 2 pips, so I just do not get it, A lot of the complains come from lower divisions too.

Winning 3 times gives you 2 additional pips.

All you have to do is Win enough, it should be easy because of the streaks.

Also another point, if you get stuck in lower divisions at this point of time, something is clearly wrong with your playstyle. everyone moved up already so the good players that will farm you are now in higher divs.

I am just so sick of the complains seriously.

People have explained situations a hundred times and yet someone keeps popping up saying “Just win, it’s easy”.
I’d just won 3 games, 1 more and im into the next tier. I get a mesmer and a thief into my group, they sit at home the whole match, die every single time an enemy comes. We lose.
Next round, same 2 again.
We lose.
So I wait 10 min, queue again, same 2.
We lose.
And I ask myself why can’t they be separated or put onto the other side.
And this kind of thing happens so much it’s not even funny anymore.
You can’t progress when you win two, lose three.
I have an account in Diamond, and I’m happy there.
Another can’t get out of Sapphire because of the situation I explained.
It’s easy to accuse myself and others of being bad players, but nobody can deny that the MM is placing low MMR with high.

If you look at different areas of the forum some areas dont have complaints at all. How many complaints about unranked threads do you see here? No one complains about unranked because its more balanced. People complain because ranked is unbalanced.

StickerHappy.8052:

I am just so sick of the complains seriously.

I’ve solved your problem for you: stop reading them. No need to thank me!

The pip system they have coupled with the unfair matchmaking is the most frustrating thing I’ve encountered in this game.

I’ve given up on the league completely. It’s just frustrating and absolutely no fun. I’ll go back to unranked (when I can face PvP again).

sanctuary.1068:

If you look at different areas of the forum some areas dont have complaints at all. How many complaints about unranked threads do you see here? No one complains about unranked because its more balanced. People complain because ranked is unbalanced.

Nobody complains about unranked because nobody cares about unranked during ranked season.

If you were here when everyone was forced to play unranked during off-seasons, you’ll know that people hate unranked even more than ranked.

I can explain it to you without number and easily.

The more PVP match you played in GW2, the worst will be your team mate in solo queue.
people with 10-20k pvp match will have a lot of trouble to reach legend.
People with 0->4K will have it easy.

This is how it works currently

micky.6854:

Have any of these MM threads received an official investigation or at least an official response?
Sure, in a week or two the complaints will stop, but it seems like a lot of people will be left feeling cheated and ignored…

Some kind of response would be nice, but no matter what that response was some people will feel cheated and ignored. At this late stage no changes can be made for this season. It’s just not likely.

I’d like to see some kind of response at the end of this season about what (if anything) will they do for the next season and also next years league. I’m not holding my breath though, ArenaNet rarely share information on any plans.

If there is another league next year, that is.

I still can’t find the logic here especially now that everyone who is good has moved up the divisions already.

Just think of it this way:

• If you are good as you say and your teammates suck then

You have 4 noobs on your team but you have yourself you is good

vs

5 noobs on the other team.

Meaning you should win most of the time. You are the difference here.

Again I repeat, If you say that you lose more than you win, how does that happen when virtually every decent player is on ruby-legend already? All those that are left on the lower divisions are scrubs.

How do you still get blowout matches? There is really no reason for the odds to be stacked against you? Are you saying that a stacked team of baddies on the other team are against your odds?

IF this was the start of the season, yea I understand that you will get farmed by good players who started their divs on emerald and sapphire (ruby-legend last season)

But cmon! The season is almost over, the competition in those divs are non existent.

StickerHappy.8052:

I still can’t find the logic here especially now that everyone who is good has moved up the divisions already.

Just think of it this way:

• If you are good as you say and your teammates suck then

You have 4 noobs on your team but you have yourself you is good

vs

5 noobs on the other team.

Meaning you should win most of the time. You are the difference here.

Nope. Matchmaking does not try to match the teams with equal ability. So, you will be in team with 4 noobs, vs 5 average players. You will win 1v2, 1v3, and in that time your 4 teammates will keep feeding points to the remaining 2-3 enemies.

StickerHappy.8052:

Again I repeat, If you say that you lose more than you win, how does that happen when virtually every decent player is on ruby-legend already? All those that are left on the lower divisions are scrubs.

That’s not true. There are people that started late. There are players on alt accounts. There are also completely average players (that are still way better than the ones system is trying to put on your team).

StickerHappy.8052:

How do you still get blowout matches? There is really no reason for the odds to be stacked against you?

There are no reasons for them not to be stacked. After all, stacking odds in one team’s favour is the design goal of this season’s matchmaker.

StickerHappy.8052:

But cmon! The season is almost over, the competition in those divs are non existent.

It wasn’t true in S2, even if people kept repeating it like mantra till the last day. It’s not true now.

Astralporing.1957:

StickerHappy.8052:

I still can’t find the logic here especially now that everyone who is good has moved up the divisions already.

Just think of it this way:

• If you are good as you say and your teammates suck then

You have 4 noobs on your team but you have yourself you is good

vs

5 noobs on the other team.

Meaning you should win most of the time. You are the difference here.

Nope. Matchmaking does not try to match the teams with equal ability. So, you will be in team with 4 noobs, vs 5 average players. You will win 1v2, 1v3, and in that time your 4 teammates will keep feeding points to the remaining 2-3 enemies.

StickerHappy.8052:

Again I repeat, If you say that you lose more than you win, how does that happen when virtually every decent player is on ruby-legend already? All those that are left on the lower divisions are scrubs.

That’s not true. There are people that started late. There are players on alt accounts. There are also completely average players (that are still way better than the ones system is trying to put on your team).

StickerHappy.8052:

How do you still get blowout matches? There is really no reason for the odds to be stacked against you?

There are no reasons for them not to be stacked. After all, stacking odds in one team’s favour is the design goal of this season’s matchmaker.

StickerHappy.8052:

But cmon! The season is almost over, the competition in those divs are non existent.

It wasn’t true in S2, even if people kept repeating it like mantra till the last day. It’s not true now.

Read what I wrote again.

By now, everyone on the lower divisions should be trash. There is literally no reason who as good as they say they are to be stuck in lower divisions BY NOW.

Everyone moved on to higher divisions. So if all that is left on the lower divisions are lower skilled people, so how can there be stacking BY NOW.

Everyone who are left in the lower divisions should be more or less the same skill floor by now,

Well if you are the only exception from all those people, wouldn’t that benefit you even more?

now imagine that you have a life and you didn’t start pvp the first day.
Imagine you started 3 weeks after the start of the league. Imagine that you have a high MMR, with who do you think you will be teamed up?

You will be teamed with the scrubs and the enemies team will be average.

StickerHappy.8052:

Read what I wrote again.

By now, everyone on the lower divisions should be trash.

Read what I wrote again. I addressed that point already.

But in case it’s too hard to find for you, it’s the quote:

That’s not true. There are people that started late. There are players on alt accounts. There are also completely average players (that are still way better than the ones system is trying to put on your team).

and

It wasn’t true in S2, even if people kept repeating it like mantra till the last day. It’s not true now.

StickerHappy.8052:

There is literally no reason who as good as they say they are to be stuck in lower divisions BY NOW.

There’s ton of reasons. You just keep ignoring them.

StickerHappy.8052:

Everyone moved on to higher divisions. So if all that is left on the lower divisions are lower skilled people, so how can there be stacking BY NOW.

Skill is not a binary thing. Even if most players in lower divisions are not on pro level, the skill differences are still big enough that can cost you a match.

StickerHappy.8052:

Everyone who are left in the lower divisions should be more or less the same skill floor by now,

And yet they aren’t. That theory doesn’t seem to work in practice.

Seyiwaji.4082:

now imagine that you have a life and you didn’t start pvp the first day.
Imagine you started 3 weeks after the start of the league. Imagine that you have a high MMR, with who do you think you will be teamed up?

You will be teamed with the scrubs and the enemies team will be average.

I do have a life, and reached ruby in 2 days and stopped taking the leagues seriously. Facing ESL/AG/High MMR players. Solo queing. Shouldn’t be the competition harder for me then?

So maybe you’ll say, oh you get AG/ESL/High MMR players on your team, but the enemy team has them too.

So what difference does that make on the other case?

I have noob teammates but the other team will have em as well?

Actually you will be teamed with people with similar MMR as you. Then once teams are formed, the teams that are in a similar pip range will face each other. Yes the player pool changes over time, but the late joiners and alts shouldn’t be spending much time in your division. Giving better rewards for legendary players might cut down on this.

Seyiwaji.4082:

now imagine that you have a life and you didn’t start pvp the first day.
Imagine you started 3 weeks after the start of the league. Imagine that you have a high MMR, with who do you think you will be teamed up?

You will be teamed with the scrubs and the enemies team will be average.

do you have under 4k pvp match overall?

Faux Play.6104:

Actually you will be teamed with people with similar MMR as you. Then once teams are formed, the teams that are in a similar pip range will face each other. Yes the player pool changes over time, but the late joiners and alts shouldn’t be spending much time in your division. Giving better rewards for legendary players might cut down on this.

Seyiwaji.4082:

now imagine that you have a life and you didn’t start pvp the first day.
Imagine you started 3 weeks after the start of the league. Imagine that you have a high MMR, with who do you think you will be teamed up?

You will be teamed with the scrubs and the enemies team will be average.

i guess you just don’t understand my post.
whatever, i won’t post here anymore.

Seyiwaji.4082:

do you have under 4k pvp match overall?

5k at that time.

DO NOT TELL ME I HAVE IT EASY.

Every match I had had top tier/ tourney players.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUJoY954MlnE7OCCO8Wd1Kg

Check out the matches, and see for yourself. As long you recognize top players you will understand where I am coming from

- Chaith on my team, Radioactive on the other

vs Zero Counterplay people / etc

Dolten on my team vs Wakkey on the other

Miley , peaches on my team, Wakkey and Marvin on the other

Temple match with Vain, possum on the other team

I can upload more if needed

PS: I am not even running meta.

Seyiwaji.4082:

now imagine that you have a life and you didn’t start pvp the first day.
Imagine you started 3 weeks after the start of the league. Imagine that you have a high MMR, with who do you think you will be teamed up?

You will be teamed with the scrubs and the enemies team will be average.

How can you have a high MMR and have a life? Sounds like an oxymoron.

I’m going to have to agree with Sticker on this. It’s statistically improbable to have a losing match -every- time you are close to passing a tier. Eventually you’ll end up winning one, and be locked in a new tier.

Here’s a tip: whenever you play a match with good people. Ask those people to go in party with you. That way, you’ll be more likely to be the team of “higher MMR” that is so infamously spouted about, and you’ll be more likely to go on winning streaks.

Razor.9872:

I’m going to have to agree with Sticker on this. It’s statistically improbable to have a losing match -every- time you are close to passing a tier. *Eventually you’ll end up winning one, and be locked in a new tier.*

Here’s a tip: whenever you play a match with good people. Ask those people to go in party with you. That way, you’ll be more likely to be the team of “higher MMR” that is so infamously spouted about, and you’ll be more likely to go on winning streaks.

This is what I have been pointing out for lower divisions, you will eventually win enough to get locked into a new tier.

Winning Streaks / Losing streaks pip rewards even bolster this fact.

Imagine if we didn’t have those? Sad world huh?

Also It’s possible to have high MMR even if you have a life, joining/winning a tourney iirc boosts your MMR.

Idk I played plenty of games where I had literally 0 impact. I played matches in which I played 1v2 for 60%+ of the match without taking a single death and still lost 100 to 500 and I have also played many games where I capped close at the start and went afk on it as my team had already wiped mid and far resulting in a 500 to ~50 match. Judging from the few streams that are available and reports from people on my friend list, I am not the only experiencing this.
I have to admit this was in legend but I can imagine that sapphire/ruby/diamond matches are the same.

Belial.9350:

sanctuary.1068:

If you look at different areas of the forum some areas dont have complaints at all. How many complaints about unranked threads do you see here? No one complains about unranked because its more balanced. People complain because ranked is unbalanced.

Nobody complains about unranked because nobody cares about unranked during ranked season.

If you were here when everyone was forced to play unranked during off-seasons, you’ll know that people hate unranked even more than ranked.

Unranked use the same glicko system. Only difference is no leaderboard + it has 50% win/lose matches compared to ranked. Otherwise its completely the same. I remember people complained last year when they had to play unranked because they hadnt played much unranked and didnt get a competitive mode like they used to have due to few matches played. That can easily be fixed by playing unranked matches and raise your mmr in a true fair system…compared to ranked where its high mmr vs lower.

Current ranked is VERY different to old ranked. I rather play unranked than ranked, more competitive matches in unranked.

my lil bro who has no interest in pvping is now in diamond :S and these people who complains about MM and doesnt try to get better are wondering why they still at sapphire or ruby

By the logic of some of these guys starvation doesn’t exist because they’ve never experienced it.

sanctuary.1068:

Belial.9350:

sanctuary.1068:

If you look at different areas of the forum some areas dont have complaints at all. How many complaints about unranked threads do you see here? No one complains about unranked because its more balanced. People complain because ranked is unbalanced.

Nobody complains about unranked because nobody cares about unranked during ranked season.

If you were here when everyone was forced to play unranked during off-seasons, you’ll know that people hate unranked even more than ranked.

Unranked use the same glicko system. Only difference is no leaderboard + it has 50% win/lose matches compared to ranked. Otherwise its completely the same. I remember people complained last year when they had to play unranked because they hadnt played much unranked and didnt get a competitive mode like they used to have due to few matches played. That can easily be fixed by playing unranked matches and raise your mmr in a true fair system…compared to ranked where its high mmr vs lower.

Current ranked is VERY different to old ranked. I rather play unranked than ranked, more competitive matches in unranked.

Seriously? I would never want to play unranked in the way it works currently. Its far from providing competitive matches. Actually anyone advanced in pvp I know didn´t liked to play in unranked between seasons, many “pro” player stopped streaming or even playing cause it was beyond boring. The video from Helseth is a very good example how we felt…
My best competitive matches were last season at legy. High quality and fun, even when lost. This season isn´t good though. Most player don´t take it serious (if you can take a season serious) and aren´t playing a lot.
Btw, using “numbers of unranked-games” to determine matches is beyond idiotic.

The only people who like unranked are those who like being carried. Ranked has its own set of issues but it’s leaps and bounds ahead of unranked in terms of matchmaking. The Helseth vid is exactly my experience in unranked, I either stomp people 1v4 or my team just dies instantly resulting in me being outnumbered 3 to 1 on every node I try to rotate to.

Sooloo.1364:

By the logic of some of these guys starvation doesn’t exist because they’ve never experienced it.

By basing it on the videos I posted, (I can post more If you want), where are the explanations about MMR hell, ESL players being favored, etc. me vs ESL players, stacking, etc.

Talking bout Amber to Ruby here.

StickerHappy.8052:

Sooloo.1364:

By the logic of some of these guys starvation doesn’t exist because they’ve never experienced it.

By basing it on the videos I posted, (I can post more If you want), where are the explanations about MMR hell, ESL players being favored, etc. me vs ESL players, stacking, etc.

Talking bout Amber to Ruby here.

Well I have 2 accounts, 1 in Diamond, 1 in Sapphire. The first one got to Diamond in 3 days, the Sapphire one is stuck. I have never won more than 3 games in a row with my Sapphire char. Guess which has the better MMR.

Sooloo.1364:

StickerHappy.8052:

Sooloo.1364:

By the logic of some of these guys starvation doesn’t exist because they’ve never experienced it.

By basing it on the videos I posted, (I can post more If you want), where are the explanations about MMR hell, ESL players being favored, etc. me vs ESL players, stacking, etc.

Talking bout Amber to Ruby here.

Well I have 2 accounts, 1 in Diamond, 1 in Sapphire. The first one got to Diamond in 3 days, the Sapphire one is stuck. I have never won more than 3 games in a row with my Sapphire char. Guess which has the better MMR.

Of course, new accounts have average MMR, this is common knowledge by now. Anet should not have given new accounts average MMR.

So with what you are saying, even before the leagues your main account who is stuck in sapphire had horrible MMR (either you did not play pvp a lot or just lost a lot)

So by your statement, if you chose the latter, your problem did not start with the leagues?

I keep losing games where I’m 1v3ing enemies on points we hold while my teammate loses their fights everywhere else. Multiple times, today.

Also, I got put on this one guys team 3x in a row that knew his internet was going down constantly, but still queued ranked. Of those 3 losses, only one did I not lose a pip for it, despite him being gone over 2 minutes in all 3.

It’s not just Elo hell, some of us just have ridiculously kittenty luck on top of it. Most of my games I feel like I need to literally 1v5 at all times to stand any chance to win.

StickerHappy.8052:

Sooloo.1364:

StickerHappy.8052:

Sooloo.1364:

By the logic of some of these guys starvation doesn’t exist because they’ve never experienced it.

By basing it on the videos I posted, (I can post more If you want), where are the explanations about MMR hell, ESL players being favored, etc. me vs ESL players, stacking, etc.

Talking bout Amber to Ruby here.

Well I have 2 accounts, 1 in Diamond, 1 in Sapphire. The first one got to Diamond in 3 days, the Sapphire one is stuck. I have never won more than 3 games in a row with my Sapphire char. Guess which has the better MMR.

Of course, new accounts have average MMR, this is common knowledge by now. Anet should not have given new accounts average MMR.

So with what you are saying, even before the leagues your main account who is stuck in sapphire had horrible MMR (either you did not play pvp a lot or just lost a lot)

So by your statement, if you chose the latter, your problem did not start with the leagues?

Yes my MMR is low, around 35%, reasons aren’t relevant but after 3000 games I’ve learned my classes and how to play the game, but heres the thing. Why do I get matched against rubys while I have emeralds on my team. How does this make sense.
Just before writing this I had a match with 2 emeralds and 1 amber in my team vs 4 rubys and 1 sapphire. Now division shouldn’t matter as people keep saying but the results were inevitable, they smashed us. That was my 3rd loss after 2 wins. In this kind of pattern you will never proceed. At this stage I know if Im on a winning team or losing, by the gear and titles people use.

Sooloo.1364:

StickerHappy.8052:

Sooloo.1364:

StickerHappy.8052:

Sooloo.1364:

By the logic of some of these guys starvation doesn’t exist because they’ve never experienced it.

By basing it on the videos I posted, (I can post more If you want), where are the explanations about MMR hell, ESL players being favored, etc. me vs ESL players, stacking, etc.

Talking bout Amber to Ruby here.

Well I have 2 accounts, 1 in Diamond, 1 in Sapphire. The first one got to Diamond in 3 days, the Sapphire one is stuck. I have never won more than 3 games in a row with my Sapphire char. Guess which has the better MMR.

Of course, new accounts have average MMR, this is common knowledge by now. Anet should not have given new accounts average MMR.

So with what you are saying, even before the leagues your main account who is stuck in sapphire had horrible MMR (either you did not play pvp a lot or just lost a lot)

So by your statement, if you chose the latter, your problem did not start with the leagues?

Yes my MMR is low, around 35%, reasons aren’t relevant but after 3000 games I’ve learned my classes and how to play the game, but heres the thing. Why do I get matched against rubys while I have emeralds on my team. How does this make sense.
Just before writing this I had a match with 2 emeralds and 1 amber in my team vs 4 rubys and 1 sapphire. Now division shouldn’t matter as people keep saying but the results were inevitable, they smashed us. That was my 3rd loss after 2 wins. In this kind of pattern you will never proceed. At this stage I know if Im on a winning team or losing, by the gear and titles people use.

Yes, divisions do not equate to skill. So lets just forget about the divisions and just stick to why and how they smashed you.

I was talking to my friend earlier and I have hunch, that the matchmaking is inherently an MMR (skill too) problem.

Lets look at it this way:

• You never pvped / barely pvped at all so you get lower total matches, you also could’ve lost a lot of those matches for some reason BUT you are definitely skilled. I believe this is a thing because I also know people who only have 1k games but are very good.

Meaning

• You get lower MMR but again you are skilled for that MMR

Then

• The league comes, having low MMR despite of being skilled, you then get paired with people with similar MMR (so Matchmaking works) BUT unskilled (sorry for the term)

Which Leads to

• Horrible experience for you which will result in losses.

Anyway that’s one of my theories.

You make good points but whatever the reason doesn’t matter anymore, having started in mid season 2 I won’t have crossed enough divisions so I’m out. Congratz to those that did make it. See you at the next whatever they decide to have.

but is it possible for someone with low MMR to always be put on the losing side despite being this late in the season where most high MMR players have already climbed out of sapphire?

Essentially, what this means is their MMR is so low that they are the bottom of the bottom of the pip range and there is no other players lower than them? in that case, there should only be a few of these players because not everyone can be bottom of bottom.

Sooloo.1364:

People have explained situations a hundred times and yet someone keeps popping up saying “Just win, it’s easy”.
I’d just won 3 games, 1 more and im into the next tier. I get a mesmer and a thief into my group, they sit at home the whole match, die every single time an enemy comes. We lose.
Next round, same 2 again.
We lose.
So I wait 10 min, queue again, same 2.
We lose.
And I ask myself why can’t they be separated or put onto the other side.
And this kind of thing happens so much it’s not even funny anymore.
You can’t progress when you win two, lose three.
I have an account in Diamond, and I’m happy there.
Another can’t get out of Sapphire because of the situation I explained.
It’s easy to accuse myself and others of being bad players, but nobody can deny that the MM is placing low MMR with high.

It can sometimes happen at high levels too. I’ve noticed (for whatever reason) the game tends to pit me against the top 5 on the pvp legendary leaderboards. Never switches up the teams. I solo queue, and they do as well. I’m only prestige 1.

FLIMP.8172:

but is it possible for someone with low MMR to always be put on the losing side despite being this late in the season where most high MMR players have already climbed out of sapphire?

Essentially, what this means is their MMR is so low that they are the bottom of the bottom of the pip range and there is no other players lower than them? in that case, there should only be a few of these players because not everyone can be bottom of bottom.

The first 150 games this season I had a 65% win ratio halfway through ruby. It took 4 days to ruby, around 7 to get to 150 games. After that, I took a few days off to relax and regenerate after the grind. From that point I’ve played around 110 games and have managed to tank my win percentage to just below 50%. The difference in teammates is absolutely dramatic. Most of my games are completely non-competitive, any that are close are probably due largely in part to me 1v3ing only to see my teammates lose one point 3v1 and the other point 1v1.

I get that you can’t win every game. I’ll be the first to admit that I’m not the most skilled player in the world. I make mistakes, there are things that I need to improve upon. But going from a 65% win ratio to a 49% arbitrarily? If anything, I’ve improved over the course of the season.

I tried joining a guild, but inconsistent teammates due to them letting anyone and everyone in just made things worse. My other friends quit after seeing what this season was all about.

I’m honestly not far from doing the same. I want to like this game so badly, I want to enjoy PvP, but the system just works against me every step of the way. Every single step.

StickerHappy.8052:

Seyiwaji.4082:

do you have under 4k pvp match overall?

5k at that time.

DO NOT TELL ME I HAVE IT EASY.

Every match I had had top tier/ tourney players.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUJoY954MlnE7OCCO8Wd1Kg

Check out the matches, and see for yourself. As long you recognize top players you will understand where I am coming from

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95KmjDeLXTM

- Chaith on my team, Radioactive on the other

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9F3S_QQsg4

vs Zero Counterplay people / etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXYCqNwVEIM

Dolten on my team vs Wakkey on the other

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZJvKUxlvRE

Miley , peaches on my team, Wakkey and Marvin on the other

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YenLattedJo

Temple match with Vain, possum on the other team

I can upload more if needed

PS: I am not even running meta.

I guess, Stickers, if I had had more ESL players in my matches, I’d of won way more of them overall too ;D

Honestly though, matches with people who know how to play on both sides would be WAY better than getting teamed up every other match with people who are totally clueless.

BTW, the difference you experienced vs those you’re arguing against is that you experienced more win streaks (due to teams with players who knew what they were doing). Where’as others experienced less, no, or more loosing streaks by comparison. The effects of those differences are dramatic :)

FLIMP.8172:

but is it possible for someone with low MMR to always be put on the losing side despite being this late in the season where most high MMR players have already climbed out of sapphire?

Essentially, what this means is their MMR is so low that they are the bottom of the bottom of the pip range and there is no other players lower than them? in that case, there should only be a few of these players because not everyone can be bottom of bottom.

If you are, say, in bottom 10% MMR-wise (which is still a significant number of players), chances of there being 5 people lower than you queuing at the same time, in the same pip range is nearly nil.

Ross Biddle.2367:

StickerHappy.8052:

Seyiwaji.4082:

do you have under 4k pvp match overall?

5k at that time.

DO NOT TELL ME I HAVE IT EASY.

Every match I had had top tier/ tourney players.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUJoY954MlnE7OCCO8Wd1Kg

Check out the matches, and see for yourself. As long you recognize top players you will understand where I am coming from

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95KmjDeLXTM

- Chaith on my team, Radioactive on the other

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9F3S_QQsg4

vs Zero Counterplay people / etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXYCqNwVEIM

Dolten on my team vs Wakkey on the other

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZJvKUxlvRE

Miley , peaches on my team, Wakkey and Marvin on the other

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YenLattedJo

Temple match with Vain, possum on the other team

I can upload more if needed

PS: I am not even running meta.

I guess, Stickers, if I had had more ESL players in my matches, I’d of won way more of them overall too ;D

Honestly though, matches with people who know how to play on both sides would be WAY better than getting teamed up every other match with people who are totally clueless.

BTW, the difference you experienced vs those you’re arguing against is that you experienced more win streaks (due to teams with players who knew what they were doing). Where’as others experienced less, no, or more loosing streaks by comparison. The effects of those differences are dramatic

but we have to agree its the same as having noobs on your team and having noobs on the other team

and

having ESL players on your team and having them on the other team

It still does not equate to a 100% Win nor a 100% Loss

StickerHappy.8052:

Ross Biddle.2367:

StickerHappy.8052:

Seyiwaji.4082:

do you have under 4k pvp match overall?

5k at that time.

DO NOT TELL ME I HAVE IT EASY.

Every match I had had top tier/ tourney players.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUJoY954MlnE7OCCO8Wd1Kg

Check out the matches, and see for yourself. As long you recognize top players you will understand where I am coming from

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95KmjDeLXTM

- Chaith on my team, Radioactive on the other

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9F3S_QQsg4

vs Zero Counterplay people / etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXYCqNwVEIM

Dolten on my team vs Wakkey on the other

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZJvKUxlvRE

Miley , peaches on my team, Wakkey and Marvin on the other

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YenLattedJo

Temple match with Vain, possum on the other team

I can upload more if needed

PS: I am not even running meta.

I guess, Stickers, if I had had more ESL players in my matches, I’d of won way more of them overall too ;D

Honestly though, matches with people who know how to play on both sides would be WAY better than getting teamed up every other match with people who are totally clueless.

BTW, the difference you experienced vs those you’re arguing against is that you experienced more win streaks (due to teams with players who knew what they were doing). Where’as others experienced less, no, or more loosing streaks by comparison. The effects of those differences are dramatic

but we have to agree its the same as having noobs on your team and having noobs on the other team

and

having ESL players on your team and having them on the other team

It still does not equate to a 100% Win nor a 100% Loss

It’s not comparable though, really. There are significant differences in terms of a game having people that have no idea what they’re doing, and ones that do. How this impacts the outcome of a game is significant. It’s why we make the distinction in these groups of players to begin with.

Lets do some math!

In emerald or sapphire, gaining a tier locks in your progress permanently. This puts a hard upper limit on the amount of pips you need to gain in a row in order to progress through that division. In emerald this number is 4, while in sapphire it is 5. However, both 4 and 5 are accomplished by the same pattern of games: LLLWWW.

3 losses followed by 3 wins. This gives 5 pips, and guarantees progression. So to get an absolute worst case scenario estimate of how difficult it is for someone to progress, we simply need to look at the chances of getting 3 wins in a row.

Math

Lets start with an average player: a 50% winrate. For this person, the chance of winning or losing any given match is .5, and the chance of winning (or losing) 3 matches in a row is .5^3, or .125. This means that a person with a 50% winrate will experience a 3 match winstreak 12.5% of the time in any randomly sampled 3 consecutive matches. In 100 matches played, this will happen slightly more than 10 times. This means that a person with a 50% winrate should have absolutely no issues climbing out of sapphire.

Now lets go a bit lower. A person with a 30% winrate only has a 2.7% chance of winning 3 in a row. This means that in 100 matches, this person only pass on average about 2-3 tiers. However, this is still definitely progression. This person makes progress, and will eventually hit ruby in about 300 matches.

Lets go even lower. A person with a 20% winrate has only a .8% chance of winning 3 in a row. This means that in 100 matches, this person has a significant chance of not actually progressing a tier at all. Eventually they will, but it will take far longer. In 500 matches, this person would have only progressed 4 tiers on average, making their journey to ruby rather arduous.

Explanation

So what do all these numbers mean? Well, these numbers show that in order for someone to truly get locked into a division below ruby, they would need to have a winrate around or below 20%. Anything significantly higher than that and that person will make slow but consistent progress.

This means that anyone arguing for the existence of an MMR hell below ruby is arguing that a 20% winrate is the fault of the system and not the fact that they’re simply astonishingly bad at PvP. That’s going to be a tough sell. If anyone truly feels that their 20% winrate is actually Anet’s matchmaking being garbage and not their own lack of skill, I ask you to make a video and show us just how bad all your teammates are, so that we can verify where the problem lies.

Fay.2357:

Lets do some math!

In emerald or sapphire, gaining a tier locks in your progress permanently. This puts a hard upper limit on the amount of pips you need to gain in a row in order to progress through that division. In emerald this number is 4, while in sapphire it is 5. However, both 4 and 5 are accomplished by the same pattern of games: LLLWWW.

3 losses followed by 3 wins. This gives 5 pips, and guarantees progression. So to get an absolute worst case scenario estimate of how difficult it is for someone to progress, we simply need to look at the chances of getting 3 wins in a row.

Math

Lets start with an average player: a 50% winrate. For this person, the chance of winning or losing any given match is .5, and the chance of winning (or losing) 3 matches in a row is .5^3, or .125. This means that a person with a 50% winrate will experience a 3 match winstreak 12.5% of the time in any randomly sampled 3 consecutive matches. In 100 matches played, this will happen slightly more than 10 times. This means that a person with a 50% winrate should have absolutely no issues climbing out of sapphire.

Now lets go a bit lower. A person with a 30% winrate only has a 2.7% chance of winning 3 in a row. This means that in 100 matches, this person only pass on average about 2-3 tiers. However, this is still definitely progression. This person makes progress, and will eventually hit ruby in about 300 matches.

Lets go even lower. A person with a 20% winrate has only a .8% chance of winning 3 in a row. This means that in 100 matches, this person has a significant chance of not actually progressing a tier at all. Eventually they will, but it will take far longer. In 500 matches, this person would have only progressed 4 tiers on average, making their journey to ruby rather arduous.

Explanation

So what do all these numbers mean? Well, these numbers show that in order for someone to truly get locked into a division below ruby, they would need to have a winrate around or below 20%. Anything significantly higher than that and that person will make slow but consistent progress.

This means that anyone arguing for the existence of an MMR hell below ruby is arguing that a 20% winrate is the fault of the system and not the fact that they’re simply astonishingly bad at PvP. That’s going to be a tough sell. If anyone truly feels that their 20% winrate is actually Anet’s matchmaking being garbage and not their own lack of skill, I ask you to make a video and show us just how bad all your teammates are, so that we can verify where the problem lies.

I have to wonder what you guys that haven’t experienced this get out of constantly trying to explain to everyone how bad these players are. Do you feel compelled to justify your own win streaks.

Sooloo.1364:

I have to wonder what you guys that haven’t experienced this get out of constantly trying to explain to everyone how bad these players are. Do you feel compelled to justify your own win streaks.

Just to be clear, are you making the argument that you have a 20% winrate and it’s not your fault? I just want to make sure I know what you’re trying to say.

Fay.2357:

Sooloo.1364:

I have to wonder what you guys that haven’t experienced this get out of constantly trying to explain to everyone how bad these players are. Do you feel compelled to justify your own win streaks.

Just to be clear, are you making the argument that you have a 20% winrate and it’s not your fault? I just want to make sure I know what you’re trying to say.

What im trying to say is why do you try to prove something thats not happening to you.

I’m in diamond with a 70% winrate
Also in Sapphire with a 35% winrate. Different accounts
Both solo, just so someone doesnt say I was carried
So I have a perspective on this

Coronit.9432:

sanctuary.1068:

Belial.9350:

sanctuary.1068:

If you look at different areas of the forum some areas dont have complaints at all. How many complaints about unranked threads do you see here? No one complains about unranked because its more balanced. People complain because ranked is unbalanced.

Nobody complains about unranked because nobody cares about unranked during ranked season.

If you were here when everyone was forced to play unranked during off-seasons, you’ll know that people hate unranked even more than ranked.

Unranked use the same glicko system. Only difference is no leaderboard + it has 50% win/lose matches compared to ranked. Otherwise its completely the same. I remember people complained last year when they had to play unranked because they hadnt played much unranked and didnt get a competitive mode like they used to have due to few matches played. That can easily be fixed by playing unranked matches and raise your mmr in a true fair system…compared to ranked where its high mmr vs lower.

Current ranked is VERY different to old ranked. I rather play unranked than ranked, more competitive matches in unranked.

Seriously? I would never want to play unranked in the way it works currently. Its far from providing competitive matches. Actually anyone advanced in pvp I know didn´t liked to play in unranked between seasons, many “pro” player stopped streaming or even playing cause it was beyond boring. The video from Helseth is a very good example how we felt…
My best competitive matches were last season at legy. High quality and fun, even when lost. This season isn´t good though. Most player don´t take it serious (if you can take a season serious) and aren´t playing a lot.
Btw, using “numbers of unranked-games” to determine matches is beyond idiotic.

Sigh. You realise that ranked and unranked have split mmr right? When you start playing unranked its “average” if you have no games played. The more games you play and more you win, the higher your mmr will get. Unranked works EXACTLY like old ranked. So youre saying old ranked was bad? Because thats what youre basically stating. You have to play matches to raise the mmr, if you dont play matches you cant. Its time consuming yes. Current ranked is no way better than when you start unranked with 0 matches played. True ambers everywhere in higher divisions.

You said "Btw, using “numbers of unranked-games” to determine matches is beyond idiotic." Well news for you, thats not what i said. I said you need to play unranked matches to raise your mmr or it will stay average forever. Its all about how much time you want to spend doing it. Unranked puts same mmr vs same mmr. Not a mix of different mmr. Your unranked mmr is not the same as your ranked mmr.

Helseths matches looked like that because he hadnt raised his mmr yet in unranked.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Structured_PvP

Fay.2357:

Sooloo.1364:

I have to wonder what you guys that haven’t experienced this get out of constantly trying to explain to everyone how bad these players are. Do you feel compelled to justify your own win streaks.

Just to be clear, are you making the argument that you have a 20% winrate and it’s not your fault? I just want to make sure I know what you’re trying to say.

You’re also making a huge assumption with your math that people with poor winrates can play 100’s of games. I’ve maybe played 130 this season and I’m in legendary right now. And now I’m stuck because the progression gives me 3 wins… then 4 losses, rinse and repeat.

Vagrant.7206:

Fay.2357:

Sooloo.1364:

I have to wonder what you guys that haven’t experienced this get out of constantly trying to explain to everyone how bad these players are. Do you feel compelled to justify your own win streaks.

Just to be clear, are you making the argument that you have a 20% winrate and it’s not your fault? I just want to make sure I know what you’re trying to say.

You’re also making a huge assumption with your math that people with poor winrates can play 100’s of games. I’ve maybe played 130 this season and I’m in legendary right now. And now I’m stuck because the progression gives me 3 wins… then 4 losses, rinse and repeat.

…are you seriously complaining about progression while being in legendary?

Fay.2357:

Vagrant.7206:

Fay.2357:

Sooloo.1364:

I have to wonder what you guys that haven’t experienced this get out of constantly trying to explain to everyone how bad these players are. Do you feel compelled to justify your own win streaks.

Just to be clear, are you making the argument that you have a 20% winrate and it’s not your fault? I just want to make sure I know what you’re trying to say.

You’re also making a huge assumption with your math that people with poor winrates can play 100’s of games. I’ve maybe played 130 this season and I’m in legendary right now. And now I’m stuck because the progression gives me 3 wins… then 4 losses, rinse and repeat.

…are you seriously complaining about progression while being in legendary?

When the game keeps matching me up against the #1, #2, and #3 on the leaderboard while I’m solo queueing, yes.

Vagrant.7206:

Fay.2357:

Sooloo.1364:

I have to wonder what you guys that haven’t experienced this get out of constantly trying to explain to everyone how bad these players are. Do you feel compelled to justify your own win streaks.

Just to be clear, are you making the argument that you have a 20% winrate and it’s not your fault? I just want to make sure I know what you’re trying to say.

You’re also making a huge assumption with your math that people with poor winrates can play 100’s of games. I’ve maybe played 130 this season and I’m in legendary right now. And now I’m stuck because the progression gives me 3 wins… then 4 losses, rinse and repeat.

the ‘progress fairy’ doesn’t ‘give’ you 3 wins and 4 loses, you have simply progressed to the point where you are slightly below average. How else could it be, at some point this happens to all apart from the most skilled teams in legendary.

For those people quoting statistics that you’ll always get into ruby at least or saying ‘just get better’, I think Sooloo has you trumped. Same player, and therefore presumably the same level of skill, very different results. I guess it could be that the accounts are in different regions and thus have different player pools, or that Sooloo uses different professions on the two accounts and is better with one profession or group of professions than the other, but assuming it’s not one of those, the only difference I can see is the MMR.

Here’s my experience:

I’ve been playing unranked since around November 2014, partially motivated by PvP dailies generally striking me as a better option to get three dailies than the limited list of PvE dailies, and partially motivated by getting a set of Glorious armour (second is covered now, first is still a good motivator). Jumped into ranked during Season 2, on the basis that if I was playing PvP anyway, I might as well see how far I get. I don’t consider myself the best player so I wasn’t expecting to get into legendary by any means, but I figured it was worth a try. Because of my timezone, it was pretty much all soloqueue.

To begin with, I was doing fairly well. Apart from getting mauled the first day when I was running into people with Primordial Legend titles in amber, my winrate was, I think, a little bit above average. Made steady progress for the first couple of weeks, culminating in a winstreak that propelled me right through a couple of tiers (my normal strategy was to play three game for the achievement, but if the last game of the three was a win, I’d keep playing until I had a loss) and within two tiers of progressing into ruby. At that point, I was feeling pretty good about things, and looking forward to making it into ruby and seeing if I could continue on to diamond.

After that, the hell started – I had close to a fortnight’s worth of games where maybe I’d win one a day. To start off with, they were fairly close losses. Maybe I was a little off my game and pulling the team down just enough. Maybe my MMR was such that I was getting teams that on average were just a <em>little</em> worse than typical for the tier I’d been catapulted into by that winstreak. Maybe it was karmic backlash for that winstreak if you believe in those things, or I was just plain unlucky. Maybe it was a combination of those things. After a while, though, it started to become increasingly obvious that the teams I was getting were increasingly being hopelessly outclassed by the opposition I was going up against. Eventually, it became obvious that not only was I unable to get teams that could win in the environment that I was in, each game I played was pushing my MMR further into the toilet and making it more likely that I would lose further games.

At that point, I didn’t know that ranked and unranked MMR was separate, so I formulated a new strategy. If my MMR was in the toilet, than unranked would be my method of climbing out: I’d used my depressed MMR to get wins until it felt like my MMR was back around my skill level, and then I’d get back into ranked. It seemed to work: I jumped back in on the last weekend, got a winning streak, and made it into ruby. The streak was then broken by my first game of ruby (a little bit of luck there), and I was content at having made it into ruby and hopeful that for the next season the obvious mistake in the system would be rectified… or at least that I’d be able to pump up my MMR through unranked games such that I’d be able to make a good start in the next season.

In hindsight, what probably happened was purely that because a nearly a month had passed and it was the last weekend of the season, the good players and those with high MMR had progressed out of sapphire and my MMR hadn’t quite been tanked enough that I would continue to fail in that environment. If I hadn’t taken that break though and continued racking up losses, though, I probably would have put my MMR further into the toilet and would still have been riding the failteam parade even at the end of the season.

Which then proved to happen when the current season started. Obviously, ArenaNet did not overhaul the system (they tweaked it bit, apparently, but to my knowledge they haven’t given the details). If anything, they might have made the situation worse: because this season I started at emerald, and didn’t get the opportunity to allow my ranked MMR to recover a bit fighting weaker teams in amber. My experience from before I started my break from season 2 picked right up again, and I noticed the teams I was getting were just getting worse and worse as I lost more and more often. A hallmark of many of those games was that it was clear that I was at least as good if not better than the individual players on the other team: generally winning 1v1s as long as they stayed 1v1s, holding points against and occasionally winning 1v2s, and turning the tide in groupfights – but wherever I wasn’t, my team was getting slaughtered, and wherever I was, sooner or later I’d get 1v3’d or 1v4’d because the rest of my team was getting wiped so hard that the other team could afford to bring those numbers to bear against a single opponent because they weren’t being threatened anywhere else. Not saying that happened every game, but it happened often enough that I was noticing it.

It was actually a win that made me quit. Because I realised that my team didn’t actually win. The enemy team lost. They were making pretty much every mistake in the PvP book, such that either they were deliberately setting out to lose as an act of charitable anti-smurfing or the matchmaker had managed to find the worst players in my general bracket and matched them against my team. And I realised that if I continued playing with the loss/win ratio of around two or three that I was experiencing, then sooner or later I would be getting those morons as my teammates.

Meanwhile, in a parallel universe where those close losses I was talking about were actually close wins, I might well have found myself with a MMR much higher than I deserved, which might have propelled me up to diamond due to being carried by better teammates.

The problem with the Season 1 matchmaking system (which I didn’t experience) was that it tried to match teams of equal skill regardless of tier – so good players would be matched against good players even when they were in amber, which is obviously going against the idea of a tournament where more skilled players are supposed to have an easy time until they reach a division where most players are the same or higher skill than their own.

The problem with the current matchmaking system, in a nutshell, is this: Outside of the streak system, every game you lose makes it more likely that you will lose the next. To a lesser extent, every game you win makes it more likely that you will win the next, but this is tempered by the fact that if you’re winning games you’ll progress until you start facing better players and your inflated MMR just won’t be able to make up for your own lack of skill any more. However skilled you are, though, if you get into kitten, it becomes basically impossible to climb out because you’re losing games because you have bad MMR and get bad teammates, and you can’t improve your MMR because you keep losing games. Short of ArenaNet actually fixing the system, pretty much the only routes out of MMR hell that I can see is waiting until the end of the season and farming the players that are still in the low divisions at the end, or playing exclusively with premade teams you trust. Any other games that you play while in MMR hell are just going to make it worse.

What I think they should do? Remove MMR from ranked entirely and match players purely by matching players in the same bracket against one another. Sometimes you’ll get good teams, sometimes you’ll get bad ones, but with bracket as the only matchmaking consideration, sooner or later players should rise to a bracket where most players are of a similar skill level to their own.