Guild Wars 2

The footage here is from WvW, but it seems appropriate that it be put in this forum since balance is discussed here moreso than in the WvW forum. Also, it’s been shown that they sometimes balance things based off of WvW feedback but then apply those changes to sPvP but not to WvW. So, yeah…

There are far too many complaints against pure glass cannon builds. When you construct a build, you should put in place some kind of anti-burst mechanic. If you don’t then you should not complain if you get bursted down.

The strongest builds are not the ones that sell out everything else just for the sake of damage.

I put out a movie with a similar theme a week or so ago. It has mostly sPvP fights.

Seems to be 95% WvW there is a forum for that

Xom.9264:

Seems to be 95% WvW there is a forum for that

Did you read? There is not much difference in a 1v1 in WvW and a 1v1 in sPvP if the people are running a similar glass cannon build. The second movie is mostly sPvP.

There is a huge difference stop fooling yourself. Great you have fun in WvW I do also but I know when I 3 v1 and 4 v 1 people in WvW its not because have godlike skills.

Heck Necro in WvW is really fun because you can cheese the lifeforce mechanic by killing mobs. I never roam without 100% lifeforce and 25 stacks from weapons runes.

Funny I notice even your opening fight you have 100% lifeforce so I know you do the same thing I do in WvW, that does not work in Spvp and Tpvp the only pvp formats we have.

Spvp I dont think I ever 4 v 1 anyone, dont get me wrong like the vids but this is not the place for them.

p.s. opening your vid by ganking an afk player in WvW does not really help with the whole 1 v 1 in spvp and wvw is the same argument. LOL

Also they are not even glass cannons in the vids just undergeared underleveled people.

I would love to see that spec down to the details if you spvp

We can let the mods decide on that. I think anything which speaks to class balance goes here. I doubt the PvP class balance devs even read the WvW forum.

The lifeforce situation sucks in sPvP for sure, I’ve already given my input on how to improve that in the necro forums (which wasn’t acknowledged and probably not even read). That’s a seperate issue, but it is an issue. I’m not using kill stack sigils, so no impact there.

Oozo.7856:

I doubt the PvP class balance devs even read the WvW forum.

For good reason, if you feel you are a real daisy make a tpvp vid you will be facing people that are there to win and understand the class they play with and are even geared.

I have never had anyone stand in wells full duration in Tpvp. Wont get into it, just dont think a WvW vid belongs in spvp forum but like you said thats the Mods call.

Xom.9264:

p.s. opening your vid by ganking an afk player in WvW does not really help with the whole 1 v 1 in spvp and wvw is the same argument. LOL
Also they are not even glass cannons in the vids just undergeared underleveled people.

He was not AFK, he was scouting our position and waiting for help to arrive. He tried to heal but the heal got interrupted. AFK players don’t try to heal. Also, people can’t move when they are rooted. :P And if you hit them with a daze while they are in it, what do they do?

Also, you can clearly see that some of the people who die in less than 4 seconds are using exotic gear. Everyone is level 80 except for a guardian before a thief fight and the three sub80 thieves iirc.

Again, the second movie has sPvP if you want to skip the first but alot of it is using a staff so the killing is much slower. The dagger footage is from literally my second day of using the dagger (ever) so I wasn’t using it correctly to burst at the time.

Xom.9264:

Oozo.7856:

I doubt the PvP class balance devs even read the WvW forum.

For good reason, if you feel you are a real daisy make a tpvp vid you will be facing people that are there to win and understand the class they play with and are even geared.

I have never had anyone stand in wells full duration in Tpvp. Wont get into it, just dont think a WvW vid belongs in spvp forum but like you said thats the Mods call.

Have you tried rooting and dazing them in the well?

If you catch a glass cannon in a root/blind/daze well combo they are going to be hurting or dead in sPvP or WvW.

So, what is your POV on glass cannons then? You believe they need to be nerfed more for tPvP balance?

Oozo.7856:

Xom.9264:

p.s. opening your vid by ganking an afk player in WvW does not really help with the whole 1 v 1 in spvp and wvw is the same argument. LOL
Also they are not even glass cannons in the vids just undergeared underleveled people.

He was not AFK, he was scouting our position and waiting for help to arrive. He tried to heal but the heal got interrupted. AFK players don’t try to heal. Also, people can’t move when they are rooted. :P And if you hit them with a daze while they are in it, what do they do?

He did not move once, afk or typical skill level of WvW player whatever you want to call it just like the pve heros that stayed in your wells full duration the next fight without being dazed or rooted.

You cant know what a persons gear is in WvW and the people in the vids did not seem to have all the class skills and utilities unlocked and if they did there is no way to know because they never used them.

I have to strongly disagree with WvW being an indication of anything. When I say I 3 v 1 and 4 v 1 in WvW im not making it up.

Just Tpvp post a vid of you doing the things you did in these vids. Problem solved prove me wrong.

I have been running well builds since day one release, go own it up with wells in Tpvp then come back to me. Ill stick with wells in pve/wvw and some spvp noob stomping then go to the only viable spec in tpvp conditions.

Xom,

He isn’t moving because he is rooted. He tried to use heal to heal himself and stealth but I interrupted that with the warhorn daze. He died before the root wore off. I was behind him so he couldn’t hit me. You can’t turn while rooted, although certain abilities will autoface you.

You can tell when a person is wearing exotics if you recognize what the gear looks like. I find it unlikely that someone would be wearing an exotic model but decide to transmute blue or green stats on to that item, but yeah… I guess that’s possible? :P

Most 80s will have full exotics by this time because even if it is an alt they should have more than enough money to fully equip them either via crafting or trading post.

I understand and respect (but disagree with) your opinion on why devs should completely (?) ignore WvW when it comes to balance issues but some of your arguments here are really bad.

So why is this Xom kid even trying to argue about “skill” when he has none.

I mean the kid clearly lacks credibility and proof-reading skills considering he based his statements out of thin air in this one thread. And yeah I agree with Oozo, his arguments are BAD.

Also, I like how he thinks glass cannon condition Necro isn’t viable when that spec isn’t even hard to play and is borderline broken. Talking about “skill” huh?

Schwahrheit sill mad over minor balance to thief.

When there are hundred of comments and threads talking about how OP necros rangers etc are I might give your opinion more thought.

If there is ever a ranking system in this game that rewards the top teams NOT related to farming, something like WoW arenas rating then you might see what class and builds works and what does not work. I have the deadly glads under my belt top .5% and held the number 1 spot for 2s and 3s a season on my battle group.

Without a real rated system like that going to be hard to shut up the pve/wvw heros and actually balance the game.

Well, some of the arguments are bad but I understand his general point. If I was confident the PvP devs actually read the WvW forums I would have posted the movie there. I just want my input heard on some of the balance issues and IMO movies can be a valuable tool in that regard.

I am still curious as to what Xom’s view is on glass cannon burst builds in tPvP though.

Glass cannon burst builds work for some classes in tPvP.

Mesmer Thief are built to make it work with great defensive options not tied to stats.

Some warriors will glass cannon build to end long stalemates… simple tactic just run in go crazy forcing stun breaks/long cooldown use respawn then come back and end any stalemates.

Game needs work, right now the PvP is not MMO like with epic battles and tactics. It plays like a FPS that takes no skill like a FPS takes (people dont even need to aim as busrt). Sure you can say stun break and dodge but stun break is on much longer cooldowns then burst classes burst.

We need another game mode like deathmatch or massive balance changes to classes.

isnt this necro glass cannon? i don’t understand the point of the vid. it was kinda cool but……???

Project Shrine Maiden.9623:

isnt this necro glass cannon? i don’t understand the point of the vid. it was kinda cool but……???

I’m definitely more on the offensive side of the scale but I balance things out with my utility, trait, and elite skill choices. I also split my gear between offense and defense.

You don’t have a lot of choice with gear options in sPvP (which is something I think they should address) so I do use a berserkers amulet in sPvP but I use toughness and vitality on my armor. In WvW, you can tailor your stats a bit more and there I run more toughness and less damage.

To me, a glass cannon is someone who goes balls to the wall on damage with every single choice. I am not a glass cannon by my definition.

My general point is that when someone goes glass cannon they pay a price. Warriors pay more of that price than thieves or mesmers, IMO. I think the frequency at which certain builds can stealth is what causes the problems with those classes, not necessarily the damage that they do. Stealth is very very good when used wisely to extend fights to your next heal.

The damage can be avoided. Builds which put all their eggs into the “big hit” basket are very susceptable to being blocked, blinded, dodged, CCd, or in my case death-shrouded. Yet many of the complaints you see on the forums are about damage.

I am attempting to change that perception.

Xom.9264:

Glass cannon burst builds work for some classes in tPvP.

Mesmer Thief are built to make it work with great defensive options not tied to stats.

Some warriors will glass cannon build to end long stalemates… simple tactic just run in go crazy forcing stun breaks/long cooldown use respawn then come back and end any stalemates.

Game needs work, right now the PvP is not MMO like with epic battles and tactics. It plays like a FPS that takes no skill like a FPS takes (people dont even need to aim as busrt). Sure you can say stun break and dodge but stun break is on much longer cooldowns then burst classes burst.

We need another game mode like deathmatch or massive balance changes to classes.

I touched upon this above, but personally I don’t think damage is the problem. I think some combinations of stealth, ports, and mobility give some burst builds too much sustainability/survivability. It’s all about buying time for your next heal.

Since you play necro, you know how much of a difference it is between starting a fight with full life force and no life force (and yes, I top off on critters in WvW – I think this is a HUGE necro-specific issue that needs to be addressed. I suggested that our life force pool be normalized to a fixed percentage when we fall out of combat – say 25% or 30%. This would help in sPvP to avoid front-loaded burst and it would fix the critter abuse in WvW). Life force (discounting plague form) is what allows us to sustain ourselves in order to get to our next heal. What makes us weaker than a well-built thief or mesmer is that our life force WILL eventually run out under pressure, whereas their means to sustain to the next heal comes off of cooldowns (or CnD in the case of the thief).

Again, the problem to me is actually not damage with the thief – for example. I laugh when I see a thief trying to take me down by spamming heartseeker. The thief that scares me is the one that is built to sustain because I know he is just simply going to outlast me.

IMO, the overwhelming cries for the nerfs that the devs hear from the playerbase is leading them down the wrong road.

Stealth, a broken mechanic give it to a class and the result is too strong or too weak, see clones the same way. I find it strange that GW1 was very smart and did not have stealth yet added it to GW2.

Anyway it comes down to fights lasting a few seconds in a MMO with no healers….. not only did anet remove healers they made fights super bursty where you need to have long cooldown stun breaks up or you die in a few seconds. If you live and win fight was still just a few seconds because you dropped the class cannon that attacked you… (or if he was not bad at the game he just left and will be back in 20 seconds to try again)

Just no middle ground if you are a chosen class you can spec burst, balance, or defensive. Most classes choices are stack defensive stats or be a free kill.

WvW is meaningless PvP since you can outgear your enemy.

Oozo.7856:

The footage here is from WvW, but it seems appropriate that it be put in this forum since balance is discussed here moreso than in the WvW forum. Also, it’s been shown that they sometimes balance things based off of WvW feedback but then apply those changes to sPvP but not to WvW. So, yeah…

There are far too many complaints against pure glass cannon builds. When you construct a build, you should put in place some kind of anti-burst mechanic. If you don’t then you should not complain if you get bursted down.

The strongest builds are not the ones that sell out everything else just for the sake of damage.

Wow dude who would have thought that when dodge all of a glass cannon’s damage they can’t do damage.

On another note, power necro is a form of a glass cannon. A necro that knows how to use deathshroud, makes the build do wonders.

Fiesbert.9816:

WvW is meaningless PvP since you can outgear your enemy.

So, in other words, a fight between two equally geared people in WvW is meaningless since some fights in WvW aren’t between equally geared people.

It’s a kitten shame that logic isn’t taught in lower level education.

I run a similar specc to the Necro in the Video and i can assure you that you won´t see this number if your opponents are at the samel level, gear and invested into toughness. It is also easily countered. But the statement that the necro is OP with all those Mesmers and Thiefes around is, well, at least interesting, lol.

draugris.9872:

i can assure you that you won´t see this number if your opponents are at the samel level, gear and invested into toughness

Which is probably why I didn’t call the movie: “A Tribute to Opponents Invested Into Toughness.”

Oozo.7856:

Fiesbert.9816:

WvW is meaningless PvP since you can outgear your enemy.

So, in other words, a fight between two equally geared people in WvW is meaningless since some fights in WvW aren’t between equally geared people.

It’s a kitten shame that logic isn’t taught in lower level education.

You are not fighting equally geared people there I can tell just looking at the gear they have on and the use of skills. No I did not watch and look up all the gear set of ever fight to match it to pics but I seen plenty to know what it is. Stomping underlevel undergeared players.

It’s a kitten shame that logic isn’t taught in lower level education.

p.s. naw power necros can be tanky I tend towards at least 1800 toughness in WvW knights exotic gear gives great stats for a power necro.

Xom,

Please explain in detail how you can tell someone’s gear level by looking at what skills they are using.

Before you say that it’s because of their level please be aware that when a person is a true level 80 that they don’t have the little green up arrow next to their name and that it is highly likely that a true level 80 has his weapon skills, utilities, and elite unlocked.

Its a nice movie, but comparing WvW with sPvP is a bit complicated. How do you know the players you have killed were not just lvl 10 newcommers without utility skills?

Aragiel.6132:

Its a nice movie, but comparing WvW with sPvP is a bit complicated. How do you know the players you have killed were not just lvl 10 newcommers without utility skills?

Please read the message above yours.

Oozo.7856:

Xom,

Please explain in detail how you can tell someone’s gear level by looking at what skills they are using.

Before you say that it’s because of their level please be aware that when a person is a true level 80 that they don’t have the little green up arrow next to their name and that it is highly likely that a true level 80 has his weapon skills, utilities, and elite unlocked.

I already explained how I could tell looking at the gear used. There are not a limitless numbers of exotic skins, and more then a few of those skins were not exotic skins.

The stat/power creep from blue to yellow to exotics is massive. WvW is an indications of nothing, the burden of proof is on you at any rate claiming that those were all level 80 exotic geared players lol.

Please most the players I seen in WvW are under level 80 and very few level 80s have full exotics. Heck I run around with my level 17 thief and still kill people in WvW but another in exotics is going to kill me instantly its not a statement of skill.

There is zero point arguing with me because I WvW with my full exotics geared armor rings weapons etc necro probably as much or more then you only I dont fool myself into thinking when I stomp people effortlessly that it was pure skill….. I cant fool myself into thinking that because I do spvp and tpvp time to time.

^
Dayumm no wonder your skill level sucks. Because you only do WvW when you’re fully geared. I’m not even geared and I can still be useful, can you do it? Nah, I don’t think someone who cries about Thieves can.

Fun-fact, his build is a massive handicap. It isn’t ideal and is a “for fun” build. If he was glass cannon conditions, gg.

Fun fact: You can achieve much higher stats in PvE/WvW than in PvP. My PvE Thief in full Berserkers got almost 60% crit chance and 100% crit damage (base stats ofc). Single Unload does same damage as full Backstab combo in PvP.

So you can mix in some defensive gear and still achieve stats that only full glass cannons can get in PvP.

Nice one, also posted I kill people on my level 17 thief in WvW. Guess what having exotics and being level 80 helps.

Understand that when they nerf thieves again ill still be playing mine probably more, just to prove to you and ever fotm thief that will be crying you cant kill anything were never good at the game.

Aye Harrier I sometimes roam with a full geared thief with a glass cannon spec on dragonbrand and we have killed 7 v 2 before his burst + my control and staying power with vuln stacking is commical. A geared exotic WvW glass cannon thief does not die in a few seconds.

I think ozoooooo needs to realize stats are boosted beyond what SPvP stats are in WvW. 100% crit damage anyone?

Anyway you can keep tellling yourself that WvW and SPvP are the same thing if it helps you sleep any better at night, but it won’t help your credibility here.

Harrier.9380:

Fun fact: You can achieve much higher stats in PvE/WvW than in PvP. My PvE Thief in full Berserkers got almost 60% crit chance and 100% crit damage (base stats ofc). Single Unload does same damage as full Backstab combo in PvP.

So you can mix in some defensive gear and still achieve stats that only full glass cannons can get in PvP.

There is also food and sharpening stones and in the good old days – orbs of power. So, you are basically saying that thieves have the potential to be stronger in WvW than in sPvP, right? Add on to that, some of the nerfs to damage that effect thieves in sPvP but not WvW.

But, this helps my argument doesn’t it? Since I’m not complaining about their damage output. It should also make you wonder why they nerfed thieves in sPvP but not WvW.

Ziddy.2583:

I think ozoooooo needs to realize stats are boosted beyond what SPvP stats are in WvW. 100% crit damage anyone?

Anyway you can keep tellling yourself that WvW and SPvP are the same thing if it helps you sleep any better at night, but it won’t help your credibility here.

Actually, you are making my case for me. I’m saying that damage isn’t the main problem with thieves. You are saying, “you can’t say that since you are playing in WvW where thieves are better and do more damage than in sPvP!”

Oh, and again… watch the second movie to watch fights against thieves in sPvP. I don’t blow any of them up (because I was using staff and had not refined my dagger play) but you can see that they aren’t overwhelming with damage. But then again, they are probably ungeared, not level 80, and don’t have their skills unlocked or something. No, that can’t be it since it’s sPvP. Wait, I know… they are BAD. Yes, that’s it. They are bad.

It’s always gotta be something.

What is your ‘case’? All I am saying is WvW =/= SPvP
All numbers are skewed because of Level and Gear
Player skills are skewed because WvW consists of people who PvE most of the time

Is that so hard to understand? Or do you like making strawmen arguments?

WvW = unbalanced gear-wise players without any real pvp skill running in zergs and banging doors. I rarely go there, but when I do it is horrifying how people control their profession there – killed lvl 80 necro best pve geared (that flaming gear that everyone keeps wearing) with my lvl 30 warrior, because he had his char build insanely poorly (utilities don’t match with weapons, weapons don’t match with each other).

More on topic about first movie: next time do not start the movie attacking an afk thief that only gets back during last hp – it sets a bad tone for entire thing. Other then that its ok – nothing really good, but still showing what a glass canon necro can burst out. And i agree with your opinion that every nab qqing about glass canon enemies, while not having any stunbreaks and other anti-burst things packed.

Just make a vid of you stomping with that build in tpvp with all the gold chests you are collecting and prove how right you are.

If WvW is the same as PvP it should be as easy as all those kills you got in WvW.

Oh and about your ‘second SPvP video’ which I skimmed through and has like 1 fight against some rank 2 thief in HOT JOIN

I lawled irl.

Rank is clearly an indication of skill.

why would you even argue with this WvW champ? he is obviously in denial.

Oozo i feel bad 4 you , been waching your vids , big fan .. you clearly show ppl how to properly use their tools, but instead of praise they give you kitten. Still plz dont stop, love your vids
p.s. i agree LF is aproblem in spvp

I like that vid more. I do wonder if it was to display that rank does not equal skill…. true true, thats really the case if its a thief. Its the only class I think you could farm to rank 20+ with never learning even the basics of how to play.

That said the other thief was clearly decent there are good thiefs out there its just a class flooded with bad players dominating spvp scores anyway so they rank up by default. I see alot of higher rank mesmers that are terrible also same situation they really never need to learn how to play because they just kill kitten fast.

Anyway you did not win the 2 v 2, or even down any of the other two. Not that you played poorly thats just the nature of fighting people of the same level with balanced gear. (and you had to rez that terrible typical faceroll thief)

I liked your vids in the necro forums same vids. I thought it was just a fun vid of smashing noobs in WvW….. it was when you posted them here as if an indication of anything related to class balance that I had to comment.

Eventually you will move towards a condition build if you want get the most out of necro in spvp or tpvp. Or dont worry about it and have fun in WvW with wells and power its what I run in WvW and PvE sometimes in spvp.

speak only for what i have seen…

..it is a lesson of l2p to every other player who say something is op before practicing..

nice video.

Oozo.7856:

We can let the mods decide on that. I think anything which speaks to class balance goes here. I doubt the PvP class balance devs even read the WvW forum.

like they read these forums… if they actually did read the last patch would be totally different

Oozo, man, it’s not worth it. As with everything else in GW2, especially in the aftermath and the crying over the lost shores final event, it’s more productive to go have fun rather than argue here. Make your point, then head on out. If the devs read the forums, they’ll see it and know it.

Oozo.7856:

Fiesbert.9816:

WvW is meaningless PvP since you can outgear your enemy.

So, in other words, a fight between two equally geared people in WvW is meaningless since some fights in WvW aren’t between equally geared people.

It’s a kitten shame that logic isn’t taught in lower level education.

Thats thin ice claiming I’m unfamiliar with logic due to disagreeing with you.
Anyway, since you can’t tell if players have equally good gear and there are buffs available that aren’t in tPvP, WvWvW is less meaningfull.

My glass cannon mesmer got nerfed

Phantasms now do less damage on GS 4 and they nerfed Air of Sigil which I always use.

Anyone know the new damage of air of sigil? I’m considering switching over to the fire sigil if the damage depending on how hard they nerfed it.

Why is the OP defending himself in every post?

theres gonna be alot more bunkers and alot less glass cannons to counter them now thanks to the 20 second respawn stupidity.
expect 20 mins of 2 tanks slapping eachother and running in circles…