Guild Wars 2

I’ve only played on my thief, so might have to try that character swapping (or use my lowbie thief perhaps).

There is however one thing I’ve noticed. I play roughly 3 games every other day and had a steady run up to halfway ruby. But there, it suddenly changed. Meeting teams with double diamonds vs my all rubies. And we got wiped, not even near fair.

I lost a few points, back to under 50% ruby and it changed back to old rates. Until I had that one point over the 50% line again and I got horrible matches.

So to me it feels like the spread somehow goes from 50% top of league to 50% bottom of the next league. If under the line you have easy matches. When above, you are in for hard matches.

Just something from this weekend, but it seemed interesting!

Puz.8529:

IUntil I had that one point over the 50% line again and I got horrible matches.

Probably its the new range the dev was mentioning – instead of matching Ruby vs Ruby, etc., it matches the top half of one division with the bottom of the next division. Kinda weird and arbitrary, but whatever. Maybe the PvP Match Making dev never played Hearthstone before.

Fix your kitten ArenaNet, it’s embarrassing. Make our MMR viewable, because I have literally no faith in your ability to implement it properly. If the system is fair and effective then there is no reason why a player shouldn’t be able to see exactly how they are rated. My guess is ArenaNet knows there are issues and have no idea how to fix them without making things worse.

I have multiple characters and PvP is completely different on each other them. Some have a about a 50/50 win/loss ratio. I get paired with decent teammates and matches are usually close. Other characters have a higher win rate, I my team tends to stomp the enemy. And on yet another character I’ll have a drastically higher loss rate. My teammates don’t know the map, can’t hold points, don’t understand objectives etc etc.

It’s an issue, it’s an obvious issue for the people experiencing it. It makes PvP really tiresome and unfair whether it’s in your favor or at your expense.

Constantin.5608:

Puz.8529:

IUntil I had that one point over the 50% line again and I got horrible matches.

Probably its the new range the dev was mentioning – instead of matching Ruby vs Ruby, etc., it matches the top half of one division with the bottom of the next division. Kinda weird and arbitrary, but whatever. Maybe the PvP Match Making dev never played Hearthstone before.

To be honest, I think this was a last moment change until the next Season starts on late February. Queueing times were getting a bit too large on higher Divisions, so widening the Division range search (and since in this Season the Divisions doesn’t weight quite as much in matchmaking as they will supposedly in next Season) helps to find matches faster, with supposedly little match quality change (given that matches are primarily driven by MMR, which won’t change until next Season iirc).

So, basically, in this Season matching a Diamond player against an Emerald player should mean little because the main element that drove matchmaking was MMR, so if the Diamond player hypotetically ended up matched against an Emerald player, it wouldn’t mean anything.

Constantin.5608:

Sergoros.4398:

Then tried changing classes and noticed, that my ranger is having Super Easy matches, unlike my revenant, who always had weak team and ultra strong enemies.

Ok, this is weird. I played my Ranger last night for the first time in months just for kicks and won 6/7. On my Engi, Necro, Mesmer I have a maybe a 1/10 win rate.

I think we’re getting trolled by some intern at Anet.

Please stop…

Pyriall.1683:

Please stop…

Interesting and insightful contribution to this forum. Keep up the great work! +1

Constantin.5608:

Pyriall.1683:

Please stop…

Interesting and insightful contribution to this forum. Keep up the great work! +1

I can say the same thing for what you have posted non-stop. You think MMR is frozen. You have been told repeatedly it isn’t, but “something isn’t right arrgghhghgghgh” Come off it mate.

Guys come on now. No possible way it is a mistake on there end. Anet does not do mistakes.

Robert Devine.3087:

Guys come on now. No possible way it is a mistake on there end. Anet does not do mistakes.

You honestly believe he lost 47 games in a row due to programming? Come on now.

Why the original poster would want to bump this embarrassment of a thread is beyond me. Sad he actually gets a dev response and just chooses to ignore it, no wonder they don’t communicate with us more.

Baronvonhippo.3157:

Robert Devine.3087:

Guys come on now. No possible way it is a mistake on there end. Anet does not do mistakes.

You honestly believe he lost 47 games in a row due to programming? Come on now.

Why the original poster would want to bump this embarrassment of a thread is beyond me. Sad he actually gets a dev response and just chooses to ignore it, no wonder they don’t communicate with us more.

No I do not believe him but I also think some thing is wrong with the way match making is set up.

Lets just grow up and press the report button let the mods handle this

lloydst.6985:

Lets just grow up and press the report button let the mods handle this

He created this account specifically to troll me. Even if he is banned or reported he’ll still continue on another account.

Actually might wanna do a ip check on both to make shure they arent the same guy

Constantin.5608:

lloydst.6985:

Lets just grow up and press the report button let the mods handle this

He created this account specifically to troll me. Even if he is banned or reported he’ll still continue on another account.

An account that has a post history going back 2 years? Interesting logic there.

I created a time travel device just to troll this guy, much like the developers putting in malicious code that makes him lose nonstop.

You honestly believe he lost 47 games in a row due to programming? Come on now.

To what else would you attribute it? Bad gameplay? It’s IMPOSSIBLE to play badly enough that you lose 47 games in a row. You could deliberately sabotage your own team at every opportunity and STILL get better ratios than that. They would need to turn freindly fire on for it to be possible for a player to lose 47 games in a row for his team.

The only possible explanation is that the programming assigned him to 47 outmatched teams in a row (or close to it). A bad player can nude win-loss ratios a bit, but basic statistical odds would indicate that a single bad player should still “win” about 15-20% of his matches just by the odds of having the rest of his team be capable of carrying him at least that often.

Ohoni.6057:

You honestly believe he lost 47 games in a row due to programming? Come on now.

To what else would you attribute it? Bad gameplay? It’s IMPOSSIBLE to play badly enough that you lose 47 games in a row. You could deliberately sabotage your own team at every opportunity and STILL get better ratios than that. They would need to turn freindly fire on for it to be possible for a player to lose 47 games in a row for his team.

The only possible explanation is that the programming assigned him to 47 outmatched teams in a row (or close to it). A bad player can nude win-loss ratios a bit, but basic statistical odds would indicate that a single bad player should still “win” about 15-20% of his matches just by the odds of having the rest of his team be capable of carrying him at least that often.

Once again you make wild assertions with no evidence, so I dismiss your assertions with the same lack of evidence. Can we at least get a new fallacious argument? At least you did mix in a little non sequitur there, even if you did manage to prove your assertion that there is no possible way for a player to lose that many games back to back, that in no way leads to it “having” to be programmed against his account. It’s not even an argument just ignorance.

Baronvonhippo.3157:

Ohoni.6057:

You honestly believe he lost 47 games in a row due to programming? Come on now.

To what else would you attribute it? Bad gameplay? It’s IMPOSSIBLE to play badly enough that you lose 47 games in a row. You could deliberately sabotage your own team at every opportunity and STILL get better ratios than that. They would need to turn freindly fire on for it to be possible for a player to lose 47 games in a row for his team.

The only possible explanation is that the programming assigned him to 47 outmatched teams in a row (or close to it). A bad player can nude win-loss ratios a bit, but basic statistical odds would indicate that a single bad player should still “win” about 15-20% of his matches just by the odds of having the rest of his team be capable of carrying him at least that often.

Once again you make wild assertions with no evidence, so I dismiss your assertions with the same lack of evidence. Can we at least get a new fallacious argument? At least you did mix in a little non sequitur there, even if you did manage to prove your assertion that there is no possible way for a player to lose that many games back to back, that in no way leads to it “having” to be programmed against his account. It’s not even an argument just ignorance.

So…what is your explanation for different players having different matchmaking results on different characters?

In first case, I was playing revenant on diamond and lost horribly. Have lost like 10-15 pips.

But when I search for the game on my ranger and THEN swap to my revenant….my games are suddenly WAY easier. Made it to legend almost in a day. (+30 pips)

And it didnt work with engineer, who have the same win/lose ratio as my ranger.

If I use engineer as starter….enemies just kitten me and my team. Consistently.

Sergoros.4398:

Baronvonhippo.3157:

Ohoni.6057:

You honestly believe he lost 47 games in a row due to programming? Come on now.

To what else would you attribute it? Bad gameplay? It’s IMPOSSIBLE to play badly enough that you lose 47 games in a row. You could deliberately sabotage your own team at every opportunity and STILL get better ratios than that. They would need to turn freindly fire on for it to be possible for a player to lose 47 games in a row for his team.

The only possible explanation is that the programming assigned him to 47 outmatched teams in a row (or close to it). A bad player can nude win-loss ratios a bit, but basic statistical odds would indicate that a single bad player should still “win” about 15-20% of his matches just by the odds of having the rest of his team be capable of carrying him at least that often.

Once again you make wild assertions with no evidence, so I dismiss your assertions with the same lack of evidence. Can we at least get a new fallacious argument? At least you did mix in a little non sequitur there, even if you did manage to prove your assertion that there is no possible way for a player to lose that many games back to back, that in no way leads to it “having” to be programmed against his account. It’s not even an argument just ignorance.

So…what is your explanation for different players having different matchmaking results on different characters?

In first case, I was playing revenant on diamond and lost horribly. Have lost like 10-15 pips.

But when I search for the game on my ranger and THEN swap to my revenant….my games are suddenly WAY easier. Made it to legend almost in a day. (+30 pips)

And it didnt work with engineer, who have the same win/lose ratio as my ranger.

If I use engineer as starter….enemies just kitten me and my team. Consistently.

Null hypothesis. You are trying to shift the burden of proof. Next?

Baronvonhippo.3157:

Sergoros.4398:

Baronvonhippo.3157:

Ohoni.6057:

You honestly believe he lost 47 games in a row due to programming? Come on now.

To what else would you attribute it? Bad gameplay? It’s IMPOSSIBLE to play badly enough that you lose 47 games in a row. You could deliberately sabotage your own team at every opportunity and STILL get better ratios than that. They would need to turn freindly fire on for it to be possible for a player to lose 47 games in a row for his team.

The only possible explanation is that the programming assigned him to 47 outmatched teams in a row (or close to it). A bad player can nude win-loss ratios a bit, but basic statistical odds would indicate that a single bad player should still “win” about 15-20% of his matches just by the odds of having the rest of his team be capable of carrying him at least that often.

Once again you make wild assertions with no evidence, so I dismiss your assertions with the same lack of evidence. Can we at least get a new fallacious argument? At least you did mix in a little non sequitur there, even if you did manage to prove your assertion that there is no possible way for a player to lose that many games back to back, that in no way leads to it “having” to be programmed against his account. It’s not even an argument just ignorance.

So…what is your explanation for different players having different matchmaking results on different characters?

In first case, I was playing revenant on diamond and lost horribly. Have lost like 10-15 pips.

But when I search for the game on my ranger and THEN swap to my revenant….my games are suddenly WAY easier. Made it to legend almost in a day. (+30 pips)

And it didnt work with engineer, who have the same win/lose ratio as my ranger.

If I use engineer as starter….enemies just kitten me and my team. Consistently.

Null hypothesis. You are trying to shift the burden of proof. Next?

So u have no explanation for it and probably think that all players saying that are liars? Ok…Good for you, I guess.

Sergoros.4398:

Baronvonhippo.3157:

Sergoros.4398:

Baronvonhippo.3157:

Ohoni.6057:

You honestly believe he lost 47 games in a row due to programming? Come on now.

To what else would you attribute it? Bad gameplay? It’s IMPOSSIBLE to play badly enough that you lose 47 games in a row. You could deliberately sabotage your own team at every opportunity and STILL get better ratios than that. They would need to turn freindly fire on for it to be possible for a player to lose 47 games in a row for his team.

The only possible explanation is that the programming assigned him to 47 outmatched teams in a row (or close to it). A bad player can nude win-loss ratios a bit, but basic statistical odds would indicate that a single bad player should still “win” about 15-20% of his matches just by the odds of having the rest of his team be capable of carrying him at least that often.

Once again you make wild assertions with no evidence, so I dismiss your assertions with the same lack of evidence. Can we at least get a new fallacious argument? At least you did mix in a little non sequitur there, even if you did manage to prove your assertion that there is no possible way for a player to lose that many games back to back, that in no way leads to it “having” to be programmed against his account. It’s not even an argument just ignorance.

So…what is your explanation for different players having different matchmaking results on different characters?

In first case, I was playing revenant on diamond and lost horribly. Have lost like 10-15 pips.

But when I search for the game on my ranger and THEN swap to my revenant….my games are suddenly WAY easier. Made it to legend almost in a day. (+30 pips)

And it didnt work with engineer, who have the same win/lose ratio as my ranger.

If I use engineer as starter….enemies just kitten me and my team. Consistently.

Null hypothesis. You are trying to shift the burden of proof. Next?

So u have no explanation for it and probably think that all players saying that are liars? Ok…Good for you, I guess.

You are really bad at this please put words in my mouth more. You are immune to reason and logic have fun in your fantasyland.

Once again you make wild assertions with no evidence, so I dismiss your assertions with the same lack of evidence. Can we at least get a new fallacious argument? At least you did mix in a little non sequitur there, even if you did manage to prove your assertion that there is no possible way for a player to lose that many games back to back, that in no way leads to it “having” to be programmed against his account. It’s not even an argument just ignorance.

It’s basic statistics. It’s a five-man game, it’s impossible for any one player to have such a negative impact on his team. Even just standing back at base, a four-man team can still win from time to time. A bad player will cause his team to lose more often than if he were good, but even the very worst player in the game would still find himself on teams that could win in spite of him occasionally, UNLESS the other four members of that team are too often underpowered relative to the composition of the other team.

If that doesn’t convince you, then I don’t really have any interest in convincing you, because at the end of the day, your conclusions on this matter do not matter to anyone.

Ohoni.6057:

Once again you make wild assertions with no evidence, so I dismiss your assertions with the same lack of evidence. Can we at least get a new fallacious argument? At least you did mix in a little non sequitur there, even if you did manage to prove your assertion that there is no possible way for a player to lose that many games back to back, that in no way leads to it “having” to be programmed against his account. It’s not even an argument just ignorance.

It’s basic statistics. It’s a five-man game, it’s impossible for any one player to have such a negative impact on his team. Even just standing back at base, a four-man team can still win from time to time. A bad player will cause his team to lose more often than if he were good, but even the very worst player in the game would still find himself on teams that could win in spite of him occasionally, UNLESS the other four members of that team are too often underpowered relative to the composition of the other team.

If that doesn’t convince you, then I don’t really have any interest in convincing you, because at the end of the day, your conclusions on this matter do not matter to anyone.

Read that last part, your conclusions mean nothing devs already responded you are just making things up. And again you just keep making the same fallacious argument, I am not sure what else I can do but you are failing to grasp very basic concepts. Remain ignorant it is always a choice just not usually a good one, your call.

Read that last part, your conclusions mean nothing devs already responded you are just making things up. And again you just keep making the same fallacious argument, I am not sure what else I can do but you are failing to grasp very basic concepts. Remain ignorant it is always a choice just not usually a good one, your call.

You add nothing, all you do is try to throw up chaff over the discussion being held. I honestly am not sure if you’re deliberately trolling or if you genuinely believe that you are benefiting the discussion in some way, but in either case there does not seem to be any benefit in what you have to say.

Ohoni.6057:

Read that last part, your conclusions mean nothing devs already responded you are just making things up. And again you just keep making the same fallacious argument, I am not sure what else I can do but you are failing to grasp very basic concepts. Remain ignorant it is always a choice just not usually a good one, your call.

You add nothing, all you do is try to throw up chaff over the discussion being held. I honestly am not sure if you’re deliberately trolling or if you genuinely believe that you are benefiting the discussion in some way, but in either case there does not seem to be any benefit in what you have to say.

You have added nothing to the discussion other than wild assertions with zero evidence. Please show me where in this post your points have added any clarity to this already dead and answered issue. You are more concerned with ego than with truth, if it makes you sleep better at night to believe the cause of your less that stellar pvp performance is some malicious code, then have fun. Thinking you can come here and spread disinformation as fact is where you went wrong.

I really shouldn’t have to point out that I’m not making claims for which “evidence” are a factor. It’s basic common sense that in a game of 5-man teams, it is virtually impossible to have such long losting streaks due to either lack of individual skill or random chance. The existence of these losing strings is all the “evidence” needed, unless you doubt that these strings exist at all, in which case I don’t see how anyone could provide evidence. The entire discussion relies on trusting eye witness accounts, and if you refuse to do that then you have no constructive role to play in this discussion.

Ohoni.6057:

I really shouldn’t have to point out that I’m not making claims for which “evidence” are a factor. It’s basic common sense that in a game of 5-man teams, it is virtually impossible to have such long losting streaks due to either lack of individual skill or random chance. The existence of these losing strings is all the “evidence” needed, unless you doubt that these strings exist at all, in which case I don’t see how anyone could provide evidence. The entire discussion relies on trusting eye witness accounts, and if you refuse to do that then you have no constructive role to play in this discussion.

Ok one more attempt to get this through. Let’s try Occam’s Razor, since you mentioned “statistics” before, which of the following is more probable:

1. Someone had a bad run of luck got angry made an exaggerated post hoping to save face and blame it on the patch.

2. Developers put malicious code in that targets only a very small portion of the community making them lose excessively. Then when called out on the forums lie to their customer base to cover up this grand conspiracy.

It really doesn’t get any more simple than that. Keep calling anyone that doesn’t agree with you a troll though, bask in your ignorance, but please keep this lunacy to yourself unless you have any evidence.

1. Someone had a bad run of luck got angry made an exaggerated post hoping to save face and blame it on the patch.

If it were one person reporting these sorts of streaks, I would totally agree with you in dismissing it, but numerous players are reporting similar streaks, including myself. It seems a bit much for simple coincidence or fabrication.

2. Developers put malicious code in that targets only a very small portion of the community making them lose excessively. Then when called out on the forums lie to their customer base to cover up this grand conspiracy.

Did anyone actually accuse them of this? I haven’t heard anyone do so, but if so I would completely disagree with that person.

I think the far more likely scenario is that their complex matchmaking system has some sort of unintended behavior in it, one of which they are not fully aware, that results in certain players, perhaps only in specific classes or under specific conditions (hence the complexity of it), ending up in matches where they are almost always paired with all or mostly substandard players (perhaps of their own skill level, perhaps not), and matched against teams of above average players, such that every match they enter have the odds stacked well against them and even coming close to victory is unlikely.

Because the system does not know that it’s doing this, it continues to do it repeatedly without throwing up any red flags that are immediately visible to the developers, so they cannot confirm that anything is wrong, it all looks fine from their switchboards.

It is not at all malicious on anyone’s part, it is just a flawed system that is intended to present matches of relatively even skill levels on both sides, and is instead spitting out massive mismatches consistently to certain players (or at the very least give a player an even balance of “easy” and “hard” match-ups), with the unintended result being that some players are reporting massively long and unusually lopsided win streaks, through no superhuman efforts on their own part, while others are reporting statistically unlikely losing streaks, which they believe they could play no personal role in preventing.

It is of course all circumstantial at this point, players reporting unusual win/loss streaks, and we do not have access to any data that could prove it one way or the other, but I do feel that this circumstantial evidence is enough to justify ANet taking a deeper look at what might be causing this apparent phenomenon.

Ohoni.6057:

1. Someone had a bad run of luck got angry made an exaggerated post hoping to save face and blame it on the patch.

If it were one person reporting these sorts of streaks, I would totally agree with you in dismissing it, but numerous players are reporting similar streaks, including myself. It seems a bit much for simple coincidence or fabrication.

2. Developers put malicious code in that targets only a very small portion of the community making them lose excessively. Then when called out on the forums lie to their customer base to cover up this grand conspiracy.

Did anyone actually accuse them of this? I haven’t heard anyone do so, but if so I would completely disagree with that person.

I think the far more likely scenario is that their complex matchmaking system has some sort of unintended behavior in it, one of which they are not fully aware, that results in certain players, perhaps only in specific classes or under specific conditions (hence the complexity of it), ending up in matches where they are almost always paired with all or mostly substandard players (perhaps of their own skill level, perhaps not), and matched against teams of above average players, such that every match they enter have the odds stacked well against them and even coming close to victory is unlikely.

Because the system does not know that it’s doing this, it continues to do it repeatedly without throwing up any red flags that are immediately visible to the developers, so they cannot confirm that anything is wrong, it all looks fine from their switchboards.

It is not at all malicious on anyone’s part, it is just a flawed system that is intended to present matches of relatively even skill levels on both sides, and is instead spitting out massive mismatches consistently to certain players (or at the very least give a player an even balance of “easy” and “hard” match-ups), with the unintended result being that some players are reporting massively long and unusually lopsided win streaks, through no superhuman efforts on their own part, while others are reporting statistically unlikely losing streaks, which they believe they could play no personal role in preventing.

It is of course all circumstantial at this point, players reporting unusual win/loss streaks, and we do not have access to any data that could prove it one way or the other, but I do feel that this circumstantial evidence is enough to justify ANet taking a deeper look at what might be causing this apparent phenomenon.

“Apparent phenomenon” this really sums up what you are missing. I reject the premise that there is a phenomenon at all. You have presented nothing but anecdotal evidence. Even with a developer taking the time to look into this and find such issue (aka real evidence) you still make wild assumptions while proving nothing. You based the premise of your argument that it’s statistically impossible to lose 47 games straight, yet you don’t even know this base assumption to be true either.

You seem to be hellbent on self deluding yourself into thinking that some untraceable bug kept you down. Take a step back without emotion and tell me any of this craziness makes sense.

“Apparent phenomenon” this really sums up what you are missing. I reject the premise that there is a phenomenon at all.

And that’s fine. A lot of us disagree with you on that. We apparently can’t convince you with our eye witness claims, and you can’t convince us with your “I don’t believe you”s, so we’re at a bit of an impasse. Luckily, however, there’s no reason whatsoever why we should convince you, so you can continue to remain unconvinced as much as you like.

You seem to be hellbent on self deluding yourself into thinking that some untraceable bug kept you down. Take a step back without emotion and tell me any of this craziness makes sense.

Occam’s razor, it makes more sense than the alternatives.

Ohoni.6057:

“Apparent phenomenon” this really sums up what you are missing. I reject the premise that there is a phenomenon at all.

And that’s fine. A lot of us disagree with you on that. We apparently can’t convince you with our eye witness claims, and you can’t convince us with your “I don’t believe you”s, so we’re at a bit of an impasse. Luckily, however, there’s no reason whatsoever why we should convince you, so you can continue to remain unconvinced as much as you like.

You seem to be hellbent on self deluding yourself into thinking that some untraceable bug kept you down. Take a step back without emotion and tell me any of this craziness makes sense.

Occam’s razor, it makes more sense than the alternatives.

You really just repeat the same bad arguments over and over. Once again you are the one making a claim the burden of proof is on you and your “numerous” other supporters not me. Really grasping at straws at this point.

You don’t have the tools or the data to back up any of the claims you are making. The people that do have these tools and data took the time to look into it for you and found no issue. Yet you are so arrogant that you still cannot accept this and would rather rely on anecdotal evidence from a few random posters. Good luck in the real world, your standards of evidence are remarkably low.

You really just repeat the same bad arguments over and over. Once again you are the one making a claim the burden of proof is on you and your “numerous” other supporters not me. Really grasping at straws at this point.

You don’t have the tools or the data to back up any of the claims you are making. The people that do have these tools and data took the time to look into it for you and found no issue. Yet you are so arrogant that you still cannot accept this and would rather rely on anecdotal evidence from a few random posters. Good luck in the real world, your standards of evidence are remarkably low.

Ok, you’ve got me curious here. What’s your endgame in all of this? Where do you see it going?

Do you expect us to say “ok, you’re right, the win/loss streaks we’ve seen must make sense somehow?” Well, obviously that isn’t happening any time soon, we have all been convinced by our experiences that something fishy is going on here.

you expect us to produce “proof” of some bug, which we cannot possibly have, and never claimed to have? Of course not.

So I’m not really sure what kind of response you can reasonably looking for here, aside from dragging out the conversation as long as possible. Can’t we all just agree that you will never be convinced of this, and that nobody care whether you are or not?

Ohoni.6057:

You really just repeat the same bad arguments over and over. Once again you are the one making a claim the burden of proof is on you and your “numerous” other supporters not me. Really grasping at straws at this point.

You don’t have the tools or the data to back up any of the claims you are making. The people that do have these tools and data took the time to look into it for you and found no issue. Yet you are so arrogant that you still cannot accept this and would rather rely on anecdotal evidence from a few random posters. Good luck in the real world, your standards of evidence are remarkably low.

Ok, you’ve got me curious here. What’s your endgame in all of this? Where do you see it going?

Do you expect us to say “ok, you’re right, the win/loss streaks we’ve seen must make sense somehow?” Well, obviously that isn’t happening any time soon, we have all been convinced by our experiences that something fishy is going on here.

you expect us to produce “proof” of some bug, which we cannot possibly have, and never claimed to have? Of course not.

So I’m not really sure what kind of response you can reasonably looking for here, aside from dragging out the conversation as long as possible. Can’t we all just agree that you will never be convinced of this, and that nobody care whether you are or not?

I am not pushing an agenda, unlike you. If you can’t handle people disagreeing with you and pointing out flawed arguments, perhaps stop posting?

Seems like it would be easy for you to walk away considering how little you care. =)