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(edited by Zem.4139)
Matchmaking is broken : solution
Those statistics are meaningless. The faster you accept this and focus more on how to actually win games instead of focussing on gaining lots of dmg, heals, whatever, the better the chances that you will actually improve and rise in the ranking.
Getting always high numbers at the end game statistics but still losing most of the time, can be a result of bad rotations. You should go where you can be most useful for your team, not where you can gain the most healing/dmg/kills.
do you know , you don’t firght afk player right ? they move too ? they fight too.
If you kill them and protect def/atk point , your rotation is good and it will be show in statistical about dmg/kill/atk/def , your rotation is good ? atk/def will grow up.
I dn’t know if you are read everything or if its a troll….
If all player on team do it like me , how ennemi should win if they loose and die on every point ? i mean , if we kill them , its because they die , so if they die , they have not capt point , if they have not capt point , its because we capt it.
Im feeling stupid to explain this but it feel i have too.
im fighting on point you know … these statistical , i do it on point , to fight where it need to be .
(edited by Zem.4139)
I can keep 2 or 3 players busy the whole game while the rest of my teams barely manages to cap 2 points. They will have higher stats than me, does this mean they carried me?
You can deal lots of dmg but never kill anybody. You can get lots of kills by zerging around and tagging players that would have died without your “help”. You can gain lots of healing as support class in long fights on an node that is capped by the enemy. You get my point?
if you get 3 player busy , your dammge will incrass a lot , because u hit 3 player , still if its not a lot ; so , your def will incrase a lot higher than 30% too. and for finish , your healing stat will grow up like never if you fight all game you v3.
Connect brain please.
I don’t have to dmg those players to keep them busy, i don’t have to heal a lot if i do a good job at kiting and avoiding their dmg, i won’t be defending a point, because it should be impossible to defend a point 1vs3. Yet i grant my team a huge advantage.
you have not infinite dodge or block , especially if you kitte 3 player. you need to heal.
and i’ve never see someone kitte 3 player more than 20sec , or they are especially bad.
and maybe you should be more usefull to help to kill enemi where your friends need help.
Look my screen , i don’t kite 3 player , but try to say me i’m not the number 1 usefull in team.
When my team can’t win 4vs2 then i wouldn’t be helping them by making the fight 5vs5.
And the only thing your screenshots tell me, is that you play bad builds (though it shouldn’t matter at lower tiers where anything can work). But go ahead and keep beliving in those statistics, it’s not my problem.
And if you die 1v3 after , you give to ennemi 15sec of your death to these 3 player to kill your friends while you are not here.
an other way is , if you friends are 4v2 ( while you are 1v3 ) , and they loose , they will have less % than you , so you get usefull , and it will be see on %
i explain more , if you do 1v3 , and your friends loose 4v2 : they don’t heal themselve to survive , they don’t do enought dommage to kill 2 poor player while being 4 !!! and they don’t kill them. So your friends 4v2 do 0% heal 1% dammge 0% kill .
You , you are still 1v3 and your % grow up. ( if you stay alive )
(edited by Zem.4139)
It sounds not bad. Of course it must be carefully thought how to use the statistics but they are not totally meaninless. Shure a single one is but multiple one´s or sometimes a singel one like for ele healing at least tell if you managed your role. It might get complicated but i can aktually work to estimate a players contribution.
And then the folowing can be done:
winning team:
The one leading in this calculation gains the points the last one woudl have gained and that one gains noting.
Loosing Team:
The one leading in this calculation losses nothing and the points he would have lost are added to the last one in the team.
Sounds harsh and depends if a good calculation is found but it will support fighting for a victory and reward the best player in a team. AFK will be punished.
Totally possible with the right mindset to kite three people. Line of sight can do wonders.
As Umbra said, you don’t need to do damage or take a lot of it to distract the enemy. Going 2 or 3 v 1 to let your team hold points and cap special objectives is really useful in some contexts.
As i’ve say , if you don’t finish to die , because you will give 15sec to 3 player to kill all your friends.
and still imagine if you don’t die , and your friends win 4v2 , they come help you and you win games on all point. i don’t see any problem.
its totally impossible to finish last from a team on % if you don’t die , and kite 3 player all game.
And a last thing , you mean a player who don’t protect or atk any point but do 1v3 is more usefull than me who protect and defend our capt point while in same time i kill enemi ?
(edited by Zem.4139)
His grammar is so bad i took this for a troll in an instant but for others : Please dont bother. The suggestion would never work.
the way people keep referring to those stats, that they the one doing all the kitten and because of that everyone else sucks is why we cant have nice things like team MMR or individual MMR before match starts. im not gonna be surprise if ANET just removed all of it one day.
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“His grammar is so bad”
im so sorry Forsty.7968 to not be born english man. really , excuse me.
Lord Hammer Hand.4815 ,
so the solution is to do nothing and let good player who have a platinium or gold skill level stuck with silver or bronze , right ?
-you agree the win team win point , and loose team loose point , so you agree win team are better than loose team ; and for this win/loose , you refer to point/500 , right ?
-but you don’t agree the last player from win team is worst and need loose point or the best player from loose team need win point , to refer to statistical point ? right ?
say no more ><
“im so usefull i do 1% dammage 1% heal 1%kill 40% death 0% defend 0% atk but it dos’nt mean nothing , let me trust im usefull”
and maybe accept reallity and stop troll is an option ?
because if statistcal doesn’t mean nothing , a team who win 500-123 mean nothing ? you didn’t agree with that ? roooo what a surprise…..
its based on statistical , that you want or not. sry.
(edited by Zem.4139)
“His grammar is so bad”
im so sorry Forsty.7968 to not be born english man. really , excuse me.Lord Hammer Hand.4815 ,
so the solution is to do nothing and let good player who have a platinium or gold skill level stuck with silver or bronze , right ?-you agree the win team win point , and loose team loose point , so you agree win team are better than loose team ; and for this win/loose , you refer to point/500 , right ?
-but you don’t agree the last player from win team is worst and need loose point or the best player from loose team need win point , to refer to statistical point ? right ?say no more ><
“im so usefull i do 1% dammage 1% heal 1%kill 40% death 0% defend 0% atk but it dos’nt mean nothing , let me trust im usefull”
and maybe accept reallity and stop troll is an option ?because if statistcal doesn’t mean nothing , a team who win 500-123 mean nothing ? you didn’t agree with that ? roooo what a surprise…..
its based on statistical , that you want or not. sry.
Im not born english either mate but your suggestion paired with that just gives a very bad vibe. The suggestions been gone over many times already and it wouldnt work.
Firstly Anet does not want to promote stat centric gameplay because people would stray from trying to win to just trying to get top stats.
Secondly there are some professions that have a clear advantage over others stat wise which would obviously be bad.
Thirdly people could also exploit the system and try to target players that they want not to get rating and gank them. Actually i could probably go on for a while about this, some things i didnt say are in the replies already but you get my point, it doesnt work.
but game based on 500point and good player stuck in silver/bronze is fine ?
and as i’ve say , i can carry with ingi/war/thief/guard/necro and do beetween 25-40% on all statistcal with these. ( and i don’t care about metabattle or other thing for ppl who can’t connect brain by their own )
there are only noob player no brain can easely play necro/guard to win to think its the only way to win.
i will say again by an other way , who is more usefull :
-someone who protect our point , and fight on point and do kill after kill ?
-someone 1v3 who fight out of point , and don’t kill anyone , and just take risk to die ?
(edited by Zem.4139)
Obviously if they just die it won’t help your team. The people who are here are talking about 1v3 and staying alive.
i’ve just done a game , we have loose , we have get a group from 2 player in ranked :
1 have 1k achiev , the other have just buy the game , they have go both of them to close at start.
when we have see this , all of us have cry , but don’t care , its ok , new bronze player who have never pvp 1 time before can join us and down point from good player.
they are not silver , they have just begin in game , but they still can join ranked and join a silver party ?
obviously we have loose , and ppl like me with skill have to endure this and continu to loose point.
But don’t change anything is perfect , matchmaking is actually fine.
(edited by Zem.4139)
[edit : im not english , but i don’t use google translate , sry if my english is not perfect]
Hi ,
I’m so tired this season , we can’t get up.
I was legendary , but now , i can’t group more than 2 , and i’ve to carry headless chicken in silver.
Every game , i’ve best dammage , best kill , best rez , best all.
I do beetween 25-45% everywhere ( 60% sometime on heal/def )I can hear some genius say statistical mean nothing and someone can be usefull without good statistical…. wow genius !!!
You mean a guy , who have under 10% dammage , 10% heal , 10% kill , but have 30% death is usefull to team ? wow… i can’t imagine how genius these people are.We have 5 player in a team , 100%/5=20%
If you do more than 20% , you are usefull ( you can count % death to negativ ) if you do less , useless.
Of course there are heal , and they will not do 20% dammage or kill.
A good heal do 10-12% dammage , 55-65% heal , 10% kill , and can easely do 30-35% def so average is easely equal to 20% or more.So statistical mean everything how you are usefull or not , still if you are heal.
Finally , to go back to problem , how can i’ve every time 25-45% everywhere and still locked in silver ? i should be gold or platinium. Because im not good enough to carry ?
Problem is if you have a guys A ( in silver but with a platinium lvl skill ) , a guys B ( same , in silver but with a platinium lvl skill ) and they fight in silver , they have each 4 guys C ( silver Chicken ). Some time A win and get point while B loose point , some time B win and get point and A loose point , so , finally A and B stay in silver. still if they do all job.
A and B will not every time fighting each other , but im sure there are a lot of other good guys who will fight and loose and have nothing to do in silver.Its a real problem , but there are a solution !!
A team win , the last from this team loose point , because he are not usefull , and have nothing to do in silver , carry by good people who need get up.
A team loose , the 1st guys from this team win point , because he have do all the job , and he have to go gold instead go to bronze.
We can extend this solution to the 2 last from win team , and 2 first from loose team.
And the last from loose team loose more point , and the first from win team win more point.
It will solve all problem , and people will fight in the division they deserve.I hear same genius from the last time say " yea but its not good , all people will play only necro or guard’.
Omg…. i can do 25-45% everywhere as guard-necro-war-thief-ingi , and i can heal as ele like the plan i’ve say earlier. If i don’t play ranger or rev , its because im not good enought to carry with these , but you can be sure you can with these too.And it’s not finish! we have a second effect from this solution.
People will not AFK in game anymore , cause they don’t want be the last from team and loose more point.So , say me what do you think.
(i let some attachament , to protect me from stupid thing like " if you loose , its because you are bad" )
I bet that a very mechanically and rotation wise skilled player could have none of the top stats and very little damage/heal/… yet would still win the game. Rotations are much, much more important than top stats, up to the point that I am almost willing to say, that top stats don’t mean anything.
If your a plat level player you wouldn’t be stuck in silver literally I can almost 1v5 at that level lol….. stop thinking your better then you are come to reality and focus on getting better…
but game based on 500point and good player stuck in silver/bronze is fine ?
and as i’ve say , i can carry with ingi/war/thief/guard/necro and do beetween 25-40% on all statistcal with these. ( and i don’t care about metabattle or other thing for ppl who can’t connect brain by their own )
there are only noob player no brain can easely play necro/guard to win to think its the only way to win.i will say again by an other way , who is more usefull :
-someone who protect our point , and fight on point and do kill after kill ?
-someone 1v3 who fight out of point , and don’t kill anyone , and just take risk to die ?
Even if he dies, as long as he stalls for some time it should be enough for your team to kill the rest of the map. That is what carrying is in this game, stalling or killing multiple people at once. If youre good you most likely wont even die, just stall as long as you can safely but sometimes its better to sacrifice as well. If the rest of your team cannot 4v2 the enemies in the rest of the map they deserve to lose.
So now ill ask you a question. Which is better, the rest of your team is 4v4 or 4v2? The first being your team obviously. Youve been playing the wrong way if you really think thats how you carry. Good players are not stuck in gold/silver.
Oh and at silver/gold you can easily kill many people alone, its kind of a scrub tier.
(edited by Forsty.7968)
quite clear. If you hold a point and let your team 4:4 you will be fully dependent on that team. You just contributed your 20% and thus are at the mercy of ohters. this is not carrying … But if i can 1:2 or 1:3, even offpoint then the weak links have more space to make errors or will outnumber oponents and propably not die in even fights while my team has more points then the other… Thus i carried.
Top stats tell about role and contribution so are not worthless, but a singe top stat often tells nothing and rotation / binding oponents is far more relevant.
The problem is that matchmaking is made with a player mmr. But the player mmr is made from a whole team’s result. So a mmr is made with luck. If a very bad player has the luck to be teamed often with good players, he will win often and then have a nice mmr.
It’s the simple explication of all this problem with matchmaking.
The unique solution is to take each player’s stats individualy.
And for those ppl who argue that they can carry a team a whole match by doing 1v2 in a point. There can be stats that counts : damages takken, or the time spend in fight or better : a stat that take into account the time spend in fight near a point X number of ennemies near the point – number of allies near the point.
(edited by Delweyn.1309)
exactly and per class MMR will be needed for that. But measuring contribution in a team match is hard and will never be exact. But it does´t need to be exact.
so , solution is to change nothing and let people get carried , and let good player stuck in silver ? com on.
-an other solution is to open some mod 1v1 or 2v2 , it will be more representative to your real lvl. For sure , with less point to loose and win , but it will be an other solution.
-an other solution is to include a public to 5 player , these public don’t win point but can add +1 to player who deserve, and -1 to player who deserve it too. it will be anonymous , no name and skin viewvable.
yes but why a public should loose time to this ? they will not win point , but they can progress to reward. It can be a betting game too.
com on.
there are a lot of other solution like let team from 5 player in ranked , and a lot other.
But ranked matchmaking actually don’t work like this.
(edited by Zem.4139)
I think this is how rankings work out:
Bronze: weak map awareness and weak mechanical skills. Some players will have either moderate map awareness or moderate mechanical skill but not both. Players will often be overwhelmed even when playing otherwise high potential builds. Rotation will generally not happen. Teams need to be told where to go and what to do.
Silver: moderate map awareness and moderate mechanical skill. Players still need help planning and moving around map properly. Sometimes will struggle with survivability in group fights.
Gold: generally good map awareness and mechanical skill. Generally can survive in a group fight for a longer period of time. May have top tier mechanical skill or map awareness but not both. More likely to run into anti-meta builds and other customized play styles.
Platinum/Legendary: high mechanical skills and map awareness. Generally hard but fun to play against.
If you are stuck in silver then you are not doing something that is keeping you there. I had bad placements and climbed from low silver to t3 gold.
I think this is how rankings work out:
Bronze: Trash
Silver: Trash
Gold: Trash
Platinum: Trash/decent
Legendary: match fix/good
i fixed it for you
You keep saying that there are “good” players (platinum tier) that are stuck in silver. Obviously, i can’t prove that there is not a single good player who is actually stuck in silver but i’ll agree to change the skill rating calculation if you show me gameplay footage of one who is legit stuck at this rating. I’m asking for gameplay footage, not stats, stats don’t mean anything when we can’t interpret them.
For comparative purposes, this is one of my personal recordings and i am currently “stuck” at around 1600 rating EU.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrvIh1M3NP0 (I’ve kinda kitten myself this season by playing exclusively warrior that i only picked up 2 weeks ago)
an other problem is when i win 500-56 , i win 14point , and when i loose 499-500 , i loose 14 point too.
cool.
Ah i forget , statistical mean nothing again…. yea , u see no problem here too , i understand.
Oh I agree that the closeness of matches should change the rating loss to encourage people to push themselves. I even made a thread about it.
I think this is how rankings work out:
Bronze: Trash
Silver: Trash
Gold: Trash
Platinum: Trash/decent
Legendary: match fix/good
i fixed it for you
If you think there is no difference between bronze and gold then that is your problem. Also, bronze players lack experience and skill. This doesn’t make them “trash.” If you know you are dealing with newer players you should try to help them get better. You may think “that’s not my job” but if everyone thinks the same and no one helps…these players won’t get better. Calling them trash only makes it more likely they will quit playing pvp before they play enough to get better without anyone’s help. Then we get players who complain about population issues in pvp while attacking entry level players.
Rewards drew in new players last season. If we want those people to stay and get better we need to work on our collective attitude towards inexperienced players.
Oh I agree that the closeness of matches should change the rating loss to encourage people to push themselves. I even made a thread about it.
+1 i also stated this multiple times.
i’ve port a lot of different solution , but i’ve an other one.
An option " i don’t want play with this player anymore" and works for 5 games
an other" i want play again with this one." and works for 1 game
(edited by Zem.4139)
I think this is how rankings work out:
Bronze: Trash
Silver: Trash
Gold: Trash
Platinum: Trash/decent
Legendary: match fix/good
i fixed it for you
If you think there is no difference between bronze and gold then that is your problem. Also, bronze players lack experience and skill. This doesn’t make them “trash.” If you know you are dealing with newer players you should try to help them get better. You may think “that’s not my job” but if everyone thinks the same and no one helps…these players won’t get better. Calling them trash only makes it more likely they will quit playing pvp before they play enough to get better without anyone’s help. Then we get players who complain about population issues in pvp while attacking entry level players.
Rewards drew in new players last season. If we want those people to stay and get better we need to work on our collective attitude towards inexperienced players.
I was mostly joking with that but what i depict with trash is players who dont have the potential to play on a high level. People that have the potential for it learn things by themselves as well. Trash can get to grade 4 trash with practise and advice. New players of course being exceptions.
(edited by Forsty.7968)
I’m actualy surprised nobody already pointed it out but….
and please take this as honest feedback. its difficult to improve alone, listen to others and think about what they say.
from what i see from your screenshots i’m not surprised you are in a very low division.
i dont rly care about these topplayer, but your builds…
1. power war i assume with… banner of tactic? what is it supposed to to? it is bad. like rly, rly bad. tbh i have never ever seen someone running it and have no clue why someone would. literaly every other skill would be better.
2. thief. honestly, i have no clue what this build is supposed to be. the heal is bad. even assassin signet is a better skill, which is also a pretty bad skill. for gods sake, take shadow step or blinding power. and ofc change the heal
3. i didnt rly think it get much worse. but why the kitten would someone play a full elixier core condi engi? as an engi-player i know p/p is kinda fun to play, but it heavily lacks on defense. you can get nice bursts with burning, but it is removed way to easy by nearly all classes. healing turret is a way stronger heal. this quickness-elixier… nah. take some defense. if you rly want to stick to this build and core-engi, take toolkit atleast, for the block. i would suggest to go scrapper with bulkwar gyro tho.
i honestly think that with improved builds you would increase your winrate alot.
ofc i cant tell how good you play these builds and specialy i dont know your rotations. these 2 make the true difference between a good player and others
ps.: back in the pip-leaguesystem it wasn’t difficult to reach legend. with enough games nearly everyone was able to reach it after enough time.
(because better player go up till they are legend 20+ and worse player can reach legend easily at the end of the season)
From those screenshots your stats aren’t really carry level. You have to keep in mind that with the way the game works multiple people on your team may very likely not be meant to do top anything.
Generally speaking top stats… medals…. anything of the sort rarely has any real influence on how much you actually did for the team. There are rare freak examples like when I out heal my teams tempest as a condi mesmer…. Or when i out damage a meta power war…. Certain classes can slam their face on the keyboard and achieve top damage… top healing…. From those screenshots you may be top but unless all 5 of your team were glass builds your % of damage wasn’t very high On an average game on condi mesmer I do 15% of my teams total damage because my class is tailored to high condi bursts and out sustaining 1v1s or 1v2s. But if I play a power war I can easily get 50% of my teams damage because Im a lot less cool down reliant and much higher cleave.
The actual stats and your placement are only really important if you are outperforming people you have no reason to be and even then that’s situational. If I can make an entire game 3v4 because I create a situation where they need to 2v1 me or give me the point because neither of them can 1v1 me my stats are going to suck but every time I do this the other team is vocal about my part in the match.
If you want to win you need to focus less on numbers and more on an actual understanding of the game mode.