Guild Wars 2

AngryBear.8741:

megilandil.7506:

its the base of ELO system, your reward depends of diference whith oponents, the chances of wining and others only are adjustments to aply this system to teams

I understand that but my opinion is that it is absurd. It is absurd to try to create balanced matches where people have different expectations to win. I admit that I am maybe stupid, but I don’t see how that makes sense to anyone.

This was my original point (I was the someone you were refering to above). However you take the average between the duo queue, the chance for your team to win is no different if your the better or the worse of the duo because your on the same team.

For me its just very hard to understand this match making system.

Not only for classes but the +/- and just wondering about the people in your game.

Excuse my language but 2 different people decided to sit at different times. The 2nd one being trang/stillness where is you can see my inappropriate language.

Thought it was a decent match, but the double duo queue (one includes Pro League players) was disappointing, and then the -59 rating I got for it was a nice kick in the balls.

Why did the matchmaking system produce this match?

Zorh, Ementon, Edison, Crysis, Ipno

All 5 proleague or former ESL players vs 5 people who stand absolutely no chance of victory. After we got stomped, our rating got stomped too.

I get these matches literally every day. I’m faced with what seems like impossible odds. How can I win these matches? Why am I punished so harshly for the inevitable loss?

I hit legendary MMR with a significant number of games (>100). Now, playing no differently, I am continuously put into teams where victory is hopeless, no matter how well I play. I’ve dropped clean off the leaderboard. In days I’ve gone from 1955 -> 1697. Have I really become so much worse as a player? From #16 NA to not ranked at all?

What is happening? Are these actually fair matches and I’m at fault? Is matchmaking at fault?

Ryan.9387:

Why did the matchmaking system produce this match?

Zorh, Ementon, Edison, Crysis, Ipno

All 5 proleague or former ESL players vs 5 people who stand absolutely no chance of victory. After we got stomped, our rating got stomped too.

I get these matches literally every day. I’m faced with what seems like impossible odds. How can I win these matches? Why am I punished so harshly for the inevitable loss?

I hit legendary MMR with a significant number of games (>100). Now, playing no differently, I am continuously put into teams where victory is hopeless, no matter how well I play. I’ve dropped clean off the leaderboard. In days I’ve gone from 1955 -> 1697. Have I really become so much worse as a player? From #16 NA to not ranked at all?

What is happening? Are these actually fair matches and I’m at fault? Is matchmaking at fault?

i remember pony playstation from previous seasons and he/she was really good.

If crysis is still playing core warrior, i mean hes awesome but sometimes your sitting there like why!

Good call i had 3 games earlier this season with edison. Twice he was on my team and we won and once against us and he basically farmed our thief all game.

I agree that the punishment shouldnt be so big but it seems like alot of top level players are here which is how it should be.

It’s the matchmaking on NA, it doesn’t work at all due to extremely low populations.

What probably happened was the other side has 2 duos and they queued for a long time and you just got shoved into that game on the other side almost instantly just to give them a game. The matchmaker doesn’t rebalance teams once they’ve formed so I’ve noticed it’s the best to not accept the queue if it pops instantly (if you’re soloing).

This happened to me the other night, I lost 20 against Vanss duo and a bunch of other high plat/leaderboard players and I had gold ranked people (not all of them, maybe but at least 1-2 were) on my team.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Found a couple minor bugs in addition to the lack of reshuffling. I’ve also worked on a new version of the matchmaker that will improve roster size and profession matching. We will likely trial it during the off-season.

If I remember, I will update the wiki!

Appreciate it Evan.

As for everyone else asking their questions about the Dev’s Seasonal patch releases in pvp and the inability to “getting it right”… where’s your suggestions & coding? Do you not realize the type game GW2 is?

I’m pretty sure the majority here have either brought zilch to the table, or their ideas were just so biasly atrocious that it would have broke the system. I’ve seen 7 different matchmaking altercations implemented for Pvp; from the UI, class balances and MMR, to the very structure of the leaderboards.

Some were better than others but S5 is without a doubt the BEST season we’ve had yet. Needed it in S1, we also needed to know what worked and what didn’t.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Bio Flame.4276:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Cynz.9437:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Found a couple minor bugs in addition to the lack of reshuffling. I’ve also worked on a new version of the matchmaker that will improve roster size and profession matching. We will likely trial it during the off-season.

If I remember, I will update the wiki!

So we have to endure the bugs and flaws of the current system (that certain players abuse) until next season? Lovely… :/

Perhaps you’d understand if you researched a bit on game development. Should be tons of resources if you feel like googling; things like quality assurance, build processes, release management, etc.

Since your reply was so disrespectful and pratronizing, I’ll answer on the same tone:

Perhaps you’re understand if you researched yourself on PvP-centric games and their balance schedule, such as GW1, LOL, DOTA2, Overwatch, etc…
There’s tons of resources if you feel like googling or better yet, just ask ANET’s Devs how they managed to do fast updates on GW1.

Get off your high horse, it’s not helping you, nor the players, nor the game, nor your job…

Didn’t mean to be disrespectful! I also don’t have access to a horse. I just didn’t want to try describing our entire internal build process to explain why a change won’t get to live as quickly as players may want. The bugs I mentioned for the matchmaker are so minor that they don’t warrant a hot fix. The new matchmaker is not worth risking game stability in a hotfix either. The earliest build to ship these on with adequate testing that doesn’t throw off the rest of the studio will be the off-season build.

There are a whole lot of other teams shipping things here that are part of the flow too, and its a fun dance to make sure we’re all getting things shipped with a comfortable cadence. If PvP was its own standalone product with no shared resources like the games you mention, then shipping changes quickly might be easier.

You and whole pvp developer team should apologize from us (the ones who gave precious time to enjoying the game and can’t because you didn’t done your job about fixxing that issue) apologize from everyone in the game about your mess. There is nothing more precious than time in this world and you are stealing from us cause you and whole pvp team didn’t do their job and not fixing that problem. Yet alone you didn’t even consider that important algorythm mistake as an issue. Me and whole PVP players are demand solution immediately

Berserkeremir.4631:

You and whole pvp developer team should apologize from us (the ones who gave precious time to enjoying the game and can’t because you didn’t done your job about fixxing that issue) apologize from everyone in the game about your mess. There is nothing more precious than time in this world and you are stealing from us cause you and whole pvp team didn’t do their job and not fixing that problem. Yet alone you didn’t even consider that important algorythm mistake as an issue. Me and whole PVP players are demand solution immediately

You absolutely, and uncategorically, do NOT speak for me here. Please, express your opinion, but don’t claim that all the pvp players share your views, or attitudes.

if you do not want any solution for that problem, that means you are a pve player. And i am not gonna argue with you anymore

Berserkeremir.4631:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Bio Flame.4276:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Cynz.9437:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Found a couple minor bugs in addition to the lack of reshuffling. I’ve also worked on a new version of the matchmaker that will improve roster size and profession matching. We will likely trial it during the off-season.

If I remember, I will update the wiki!

So we have to endure the bugs and flaws of the current system (that certain players abuse) until next season? Lovely… :/

Perhaps you’d understand if you researched a bit on game development. Should be tons of resources if you feel like googling; things like quality assurance, build processes, release management, etc.

Since your reply was so disrespectful and pratronizing, I’ll answer on the same tone:

Perhaps you’re understand if you researched yourself on PvP-centric games and their balance schedule, such as GW1, LOL, DOTA2, Overwatch, etc…
There’s tons of resources if you feel like googling or better yet, just ask ANET’s Devs how they managed to do fast updates on GW1.

Get off your high horse, it’s not helping you, nor the players, nor the game, nor your job…

Didn’t mean to be disrespectful! I also don’t have access to a horse. I just didn’t want to try describing our entire internal build process to explain why a change won’t get to live as quickly as players may want. The bugs I mentioned for the matchmaker are so minor that they don’t warrant a hot fix. The new matchmaker is not worth risking game stability in a hotfix either. The earliest build to ship these on with adequate testing that doesn’t throw off the rest of the studio will be the off-season build.

There are a whole lot of other teams shipping things here that are part of the flow too, and its a fun dance to make sure we’re all getting things shipped with a comfortable cadence. If PvP was its own standalone product with no shared resources like the games you mention, then shipping changes quickly might be easier.

You and whole pvp developer team should apologize from us (the ones who gave precious time to enjoying the game and can’t because you didn’t done your job about fixxing that issue) apologize from everyone in the game about your mess. There is nothing more precious than time in this world and you are stealing from us cause you and whole pvp team didn’t do their job and not fixing that problem. Yet alone you didn’t even consider that important algorythm mistake as an issue. Me and whole PVP players are demand solution immediately

They obviously did reconsider the algorithm, they just didn’t get it perfect. Big deal. If you feel like playing is a waste of your timr, don’t.

in response to calling out anet devs
not saying don’t be mean or vent, but there is a certain cap to the productivity factor when all you do is bark

SlippyCheeze.5483:

Witi.2916:

My rating is 853 and i start to play with ma friend who has rating 950. U write here that ppl with high rating get less points to win a more to lose yes correct.

If someone wrote that, they were wrong. The size of your MMR changes is determined by the “confidence” value assigned to you, so the more often you win or lose as expected, the smaller the changes are.

That means a person with bronze skill and bronze MMR will have small changes, and so will a person with platinum skill and platinum MMR.

What you might be seeing is that by using a duo-queue you force a person to be placed against teams they would not normally match with, and so they unexpectedly lose, leading to both lower confidence, and more losses.

For that to be accurate, the example he gives with his friend would have to be reversed.
If he’s matched vs Higher rating players then he should get more points per win as his friend, since he’d be the one that needs to “catch up” to his “real” MMR, since he won vs higher players.
If he was vs same MMR players, then the winnings from the higher MMR player (his friend) should be lower or equal to that of himself.
None were the case, the higher MMR player got more points, the lower MMR got less, in the same game vs the same team. Clearly that’s the wrong bias to promote “real” skill.

What his example shows is a weird score bias that promotes people with already high MMR playing vs lower MMR people for higher wins.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Found a couple minor bugs in addition to the lack of reshuffling. I’ve also worked on a new version of the matchmaker that will improve roster size and profession matching. We will likely trial it during the off-season.

If I remember, I will update the wiki!

Appreciate it Evan.

As for everyone else asking their questions about the Dev’s Seasonal patch releases in pvp and the inability to “getting it right”… where’s your suggestions & coding? Do you not realize the type game GW2 is?

I’m pretty sure the majority here have either brought zilch to the table, or their ideas were just so biasly atrocious that it would have broke the system. I’ve seen 7 different matchmaking altercations implemented for Pvp; from the UI, class balances and MMR, to the very structure of the leaderboards.

Some were better than others but S5 is without a doubt the BEST season we’ve had yet. Needed it in S1, we also needed to know what worked and what didn’t.

1) You understand we’re not privvy to the code, or how the algorythm works, if we were many of us could actually give some ACTUABLE feedback. As it stands your user agreement forbids tampering with the code.

2) We’re not paid to fix a 4 year old problem, the devs are, actually we’re the ones doing the paying.

3) Your reasoning is childish, not contributing anything positive, and i don’t understand what you think sucking up to the devs and pretend there aren’t issues will accomplish?
I love the game, i love the guys at arena net, and i do know they have a semi-thankless job, BUT pvp is NOT getting any better from sucking up. There’s issues at hand, and clearly one of the MAJOR ISSUES is how SLOWLY they bring new iterations and fixes.

Other games that rely 100% on their PvP (because they have no other modes) won’t have problems shutting down characters, game modes and whatever they need to fix a problem before it goes rampant, Arena Net allows the problems to grow rampant, and then hesitate to fix them because now the problems are the status quo.
Just look at DUNGEONS, they allowed them to fester, and now they simply look away and pretend they don’t exist.

Season 5 the best season for PvP? Since when? HoT release, maybe, and still i doubt it. Best “season” was definetly post Condi patch, pre HoT, although, yeah there were no PvP seasons then. But still, that’s when you had more competitive PvP, and when you could see the most people competing. Now it’s just meh, you see a lot of people doing the PvE rewards grind at early season, then they stop, and that’s that.

Saiyan.1704:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Found a couple minor bugs in addition to the lack of reshuffling. I’ve also worked on a new version of the matchmaker that will improve roster size and profession matching. We will likely trial it during the off-season.

If I remember, I will update the wiki!

Appreciate it Evan.

As for everyone else asking their questions about the Dev’s Seasonal patch releases in pvp and the inability to “getting it right”… where’s your suggestions & coding? Do you not realize the type game GW2 is?

I’m pretty sure the majority here have either brought zilch to the table, or their ideas were just so biasly atrocious that it would have broke the system. I’ve seen 7 different matchmaking altercations implemented for Pvp; from the UI, class balances and MMR, to the very structure of the leaderboards.

Some were better than others but S5 is without a doubt the BEST season we’ve had yet. Needed it in S1, we also needed to know what worked and what didn’t.

I understand what you are saying but lets not pretend that issues were not brought up before.

Before this season even started, people asked for a leader board, we got one SCORE!!!!

Huge problem it is like the Guild Challenger leader board that many of us complained about. I literally made 2 leader board complaint threads S1-3 and nothing. So season 4 my guild team, we just played 3 games on the very last day of the season.

Another issue is no leader board on the forum, the GW2 website that has leader boards.

Lets also address Anet reward system, they gave us a shard eater like the star eater and dust eater. No one wants to play with there inventory, this is PvP not PvE. I know MO said if you play WvW or PvP you are more likely to PvE but guess what, not true.

This season rewarded us with ascended gear, most PvE players already had full ascended on most characters. So this was for who exactly?

Here was the big one, MATCH MAKING. People voted for solo/duo que because they thought it would make match making better. If we are honest it has been a little better. But guess what there are still major flaws in the system. It wouldnt be such a big deal except we ARE IN SEASON 5.

You are correct this is the best season so far but it is also the season i played amount the least amount of games in. I got to legendary S1-3 and quit at ruby season 4. I will play around 50+ less this season then the last one.

These are still beta seasons, lets not pretend we didnt play threw a bunker meta, a meta where thieves and warriors were completely useless and now everything thats going on now.

Berserkeremir.4631:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Bio Flame.4276:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Cynz.9437:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Found a couple minor bugs in addition to the lack of reshuffling. I’ve also worked on a new version of the matchmaker that will improve roster size and profession matching. We will likely trial it during the off-season.

If I remember, I will update the wiki!

So we have to endure the bugs and flaws of the current system (that certain players abuse) until next season? Lovely… :/

Perhaps you’d understand if you researched a bit on game development. Should be tons of resources if you feel like googling; things like quality assurance, build processes, release management, etc.

Since your reply was so disrespectful and pratronizing, I’ll answer on the same tone:

Perhaps you’re understand if you researched yourself on PvP-centric games and their balance schedule, such as GW1, LOL, DOTA2, Overwatch, etc…
There’s tons of resources if you feel like googling or better yet, just ask ANET’s Devs how they managed to do fast updates on GW1.

Get off your high horse, it’s not helping you, nor the players, nor the game, nor your job…

Didn’t mean to be disrespectful! I also don’t have access to a horse. I just didn’t want to try describing our entire internal build process to explain why a change won’t get to live as quickly as players may want. The bugs I mentioned for the matchmaker are so minor that they don’t warrant a hot fix. The new matchmaker is not worth risking game stability in a hotfix either. The earliest build to ship these on with adequate testing that doesn’t throw off the rest of the studio will be the off-season build.

There are a whole lot of other teams shipping things here that are part of the flow too, and its a fun dance to make sure we’re all getting things shipped with a comfortable cadence. If PvP was its own standalone product with no shared resources like the games you mention, then shipping changes quickly might be easier.

You and whole pvp developer team should apologize from us (the ones who gave precious time to enjoying the game and can’t because you didn’t done your job about fixxing that issue) apologize from everyone in the game about your mess. There is nothing more precious than time in this world and you are stealing from us cause you and whole pvp team didn’t do their job and not fixing that problem. Yet alone you didn’t even consider that important algorythm mistake as an issue. Me and whole PVP players are demand solution immediately

I’m this with guy yes.
Time my has wasted simply.
Fix dev solution.

~Hiku

ReaverKane.7598:

1) You understand we’re not privvy to the code

here ya go
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm

kdaddy.5431:

Here was the big one, MATCH MAKING. People voted for solo/duo que because they thought it would make match making better. If we are honest it has been a little better. But guess what there are still major flaws in the system. It wouldnt be such a big deal except we ARE IN SEASON 5.

there was originally a solo q and team q, the best possible scenario for pvp, but it was implemented poorly. people complained about it, and instead of fixing it (force solo q to accept ONLY solo players – no duo q or match syncers, and team q to accept ONLY whole 5 man premades) we have this. we have this because people complained about long q’s, and instead of fixing things contributing to long q’s (above mentioned, op/up skills/traits and passives, massive bunker potential) we got a watered down version of the only way to make pvp possible.

further, glicko 2 is not suited for complex battle simulations (mmorpgs, csgo seems to be doing fine) because there are too many variables, such as the other team buying (virtual currency at fault here) a player on yours to forfeit, classes and builds, proper point rotations for each class/build, disconnects and rq’s, and aforementioned poor class balance, which was mainly introduced with the massive power creep of hot.

Stand The Wall.6987:

ReaverKane.7598:

1) You understand we’re not privvy to the code

here ya go
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm

kdaddy.5431:

Here was the big one, MATCH MAKING. People voted for solo/duo que because they thought it would make match making better. If we are honest it has been a little better. But guess what there are still major flaws in the system. It wouldnt be such a big deal except we ARE IN SEASON 5.

there was originally a solo q and team q, the best possible scenario for pvp, but it was implemented poorly. people complained about it, and instead of fixing it (force solo q to accept ONLY solo players – no duo q or match syncers, and team q to accept ONLY whole 5 man premades) we have this. we have this because people complained about long q’s, and instead of fixing things contributing to long q’s (above mentioned, op/up skills/traits and passives, massive bunker potential) we got a watered down version of the only way to make pvp possible.

further, glicko 2 is not suited for complex battle simulations (mmorpgs, csgo seems to be doing fine) because there are too many variables, such as the other team buying (virtual currency at fault here) a player on yours to forfeit, classes and builds, proper point rotations for each class/build, disconnects and rq’s, and aforementioned poor class balance, which was mainly introduced with the massive power creep of hot.

I disagree with full 5 man teams completely. Ive been on 2-3-4 man teams that have destroyed full premades simply because we were of a higher skill level.

Also back in the day i quit solo queing because it never popped so i yolo qued all the time in team que.

Also all the things you are speaking about has to do with game play/build diversity which is more for fun.

They could give us better matches, they simply would need to quit stacking the 1800+ on one side and the 1600-1700 players on the other and so on down. That has nothing to do with power creep and HOT spec lines.

kdaddy.5431:

I disagree with full 5 man teams completely. Ive been on 2-3-4 man teams that have destroyed full premades simply because we were of a higher skill level.

Also back in the day i quit solo queing because it never popped so i yolo qued all the time in team que.

Also all the things you are speaking about has to do with game play/build diversity which is more for fun.

They could give us better matches, they simply would need to quit stacking the 1800+ on one side and the 1600-1700 players on the other and so on down. That has nothing to do with power creep and HOT spec lines.

alright, would you say beating 5 man teams was the norm?
whats your opinion on why solo q didn’t pop?
pretty sure most at least think passives ruin gameplay.
that stacking method would definitely help but there would still be problems that cant be addressed by glicko no matter how well you write the algorithm.

Solo que died back in the day because many people were simply getting bored. It took forever for a AG/ESL scene to come about and its gone again. You can already see Pro players are getting bored so they are running there own tournaments or simply playing alot less.

Also this season is the best season so far, it just happens once again. There are some match making issues. Things that can be dealt with but its just frustrating for those in previous seasons who made legendary to find out they play at a silver or gold level. That and lets add no real rewards for PvP players and Anet gave fluff for the shards of glory which is another PvP item, not PvE.

Also these passives where in the game before, all that changed with HOT is more of everything from damage, sustain, healing, boons. please tell me that spirit ranger and turret engy where super skilled? No, they werent you say so all that really changed was the speed of the game and the clutter from animations.

Also people are not complaining about there rating for the most part but by the +/- of the system as well as the huge cap differences in teams. You can see from the pic i posted earlier in this very thread. The team im on is clearly out matched and i have 2 other pics that are near the same.

That is not a algorithm problem that cant be fixed.

So to address your 5 man team question, its impossible. The only real 5 man team games i truly encountered regularly were in the AG tournament, TOL, and back when we had tickets in this game. Very few people in this game faced actual full 5 man teams that couldnt be beat.

In season 1 i faced Team PZ 4 out of 5 games and then saw them for my 6th. There were only 4 of them. It was frustrating because i lost PiPs not because they were full blow outs. (actually 2 of them were) Anet has the info since most people in the game have X000 games played. Simply quit putting 5 ESL players on 1 side and 0 on the other.

Edit- you wanted more skilled game play so im bringing it back :P

lol turrent engi, nice. agree for the most part but it still seems like glicko cant handle the complexity of gw2 and mmorpgs in general, namely enemy team buying a team mate to forfeit (or a solo actor that’s salty), people running a build they don’t know how to play, and bad rotations. things like this all contribute to a loss that a player has no control over.

even unranked has horrible match up mechanics. Played against 5 supposed Top 100 players, all playing guards, all teamed up (supposedly all in same guild) all pretending to be new to pvp just to troll the unranked players. How are players supposed to even learn the pvp side of the game against teams like these, when your just solo que and put with other solo players lol. They really need to make those ppl that choose to team up 3, 4 or 5 members wait for other teams of 3, 4 or 5. Why should new players/avg. skilled players even have to suffer through these teams even in unranked.

Stand The Wall.6987:

lol turrent engi, nice. agree for the most part but it still seems like glicko cant handle the complexity of gw2 and mmorpgs in general, namely enemy team buying a team mate to forfeit (or a solo actor that’s salty), people running a build they don’t know how to play, and bad rotations. things like this all contribute to a loss that a player has no control over.

See of course i can agree with you that the system not being able to correctly give each player there “perfect rating” but im pretty sure we can all agree that it is giving a near accurate rating.

For instance things i would like to see is what class X player is playing with. For instance i play mostly ele/warrior. When i took my necro/thief into ranked it wasnt pretty and my team lost those games because hey unranked is alot easier then ranked.

As well as the team que you mentioned earlier, the rating system has flaws but Anet should by now have a idea of how to adjust it based on the classes/ personal MMR/ Team MMR/ and a fair team rating system.

kdaddy.5431:

Stand The Wall.6987:

lol turrent engi, nice. agree for the most part but it still seems like glicko cant handle the complexity of gw2 and mmorpgs in general, namely enemy team buying a team mate to forfeit (or a solo actor that’s salty), people running a build they don’t know how to play, and bad rotations. things like this all contribute to a loss that a player has no control over.

See of course i can agree with you that the system not being able to correctly give each player there “perfect rating” but im pretty sure we can all agree that it is giving a near accurate rating.

It’s always entertaining when someone says that, then throws up examples of CS:GO or some random MOBA as being so much better … when they use the same system.

Really, though, most of the problem people have with MMR is that they see one instance they don’t think is fair, and extrapolate to MMR being entirely broken. Because they don’t imagine that one AFK player could get just as easily placed on the enemy team next team, leading to exactly the opposite layout.

SlippyCheeze.5483:

It’s always entertaining when someone says that, then throws up examples of CS:GO or some random MOBA as being so much better … when they use the same system.

Really, though, most of the problem people have with MMR is that they see one instance they don’t think is fair, and extrapolate to MMR being entirely broken. Because they don’t imagine that one AFK player could get just as easily placed on the enemy team next team, leading to exactly the opposite layout.

I looked around for what glicko 2 is used in and all I could find was csgo and gw2. that’s what I based my statement on. other games used elo but switched. elo is used in football, basketball, and baseball but these are all radically different from gw2, primarily because the competitors stand something to lose. pretty sure people are saying this is happening more then once, however that’s entirely speculative. it wouldn’t surprise me though because glicko, derived from elo, was meant for chess. 1v1, simple turn based chess. gw2 is a bit more complex. not to say simple is easy or complex is hard, its just that there are more variables at work.

kdaddy.5431:

snipples

I agree that its fairly accurate, still some kinks.