Guild Wars 2

Im going to blow the lid off this kitten system.

I think either one.. they just have some very kittened up system to make their players have to retrace their ladder “steps” in too heavy a number to keep them playing.

Or, and trust me when I say this, they have an actualy Naughty List, that they add your name to if you’ve been mean on their forums or whatever. Making it so you are matched with people with far less rating than you.

I’m actually getting all this other evidence together. This game is going to kittening die.

the healing rev is op guy?

zealex.9410:

the healing rev is op guy?

yeah mangh

I’ve suspected the same thing myself for over three years now. But providing hard evidence of this would require a full documentation of about 50 matches at the least during a season, which would need to be recorded and discussed at the end of each match. When I sat back and considered how much work this was, I backed off.

However, if others are finally noticing this as well..
We may be able to get something done if all of it is posted in a single thread.
Just remember to post hard evidence with numbers of noticeable patterns.
Anything less will be ineffective and get brushed off by the community.

TheDevice.2751:

Im going to blow the lid off this kitten system.

I think either one.. they just have some very kittened up system to make their players have to retrace their ladder “steps” in too heavy a number to keep them playing.

Or, and trust me when I say this, they have an actualy Naughty List, that they add your name to if you’ve been mean on their forums or whatever. Making it so you are matched with people with far less rating than you.

I’m actually getting all this other evidence together. This game is going to kittening die.

i would be what people consider naughty. No idea how many infractions I’ve had, yet i maintain a high win percentage. on a necro. solo queue. By your logic i should be rated higher than i am?

sounds like some conspiracy nonsense. no kittening company would be so dumb and salty to kitten of potential money by making them run away cus somebody was mean on the forums.

there is no ridiclous consipirancy. the truth is just that certain players are all dissapointed in the state of pvp and are lashing out for various reasons, some justified some are not. and some inbetween. there is no santa’s bad boi list.

It is not Anet fault, their system is rigid and the players are to blame for abusing the ranking system.

When players using alt accounts to up their ranking or paying others to opt out of a match and dodge Qing and duo abusing, this is what you get. The system is not that perfect to begin with.
If you remember the old days, before there were a ranking system, the game was much more enjoyable and populated. Now, all you get is experienced players versus elite and system abuser.

I have been wondering the same thing. I just finished the final reward in PvP and now I am done. It is very sad how game after game the matching system puts me with others who do not know what PvP is. Granted I am NOT a master pvper but I started 3 or so years ago when I first got the game to pvp on my mesmer, now my rev. And I took many many hours to learn how to better my skill and my build. So much so I am very happy with it. How is it that the top tier players only have roughly 30 or so losses? Can it be that they are randomly selecting members? No. Why do I have to be part of a PVP guild or a PVP team to become a top tier? Why is it now, being in random groups you have little to NO chance of winning. Anet will put 2 mesmers, or necros on the same team. where the other team has 2 warriors or Dh? Is that balanced? Yes if the necros or mesmers are condi it could be considered balanced but most of the time its not. I truly question the legitimacy of the “pvp” in gw2. It seems like its ONLY for those who spend enough money, or time playing with people they have played before in order to win. Am I sour yes, am I upset yes. Because too many great players are losing their ranked points because they chose to pvp alone and not with a guild or a regular team. Even having a friend pvp with you doesn’t do kitten. Yesterday 4 losses in a row. Teamed up with people that are believed they were in unranked or the custom maps of “red team WINS” non sense. Even in the HOM, arena area. Non stop I have seen players best other players who are in “platinum or Legendary” Hell even I have done it myself several times. The whole pvp system is kittenty. Because rather learn a difficult class why not just sit there and spam one move on a character.. You know who you are. The pvp system is flawed and it sucks NOTHING is being done to make it FAIR. All I can say is this. Learn to just play for the rewards because if you try to care about your rank then you’ll rage and want to quit. That is where I am at right now with this god forsaken game. Learn a class, take the time to find a build and armor and weapons that work but it doesn’t matter because you will be beaten by other classes that call it “playing” by pressing 1 key. Like seriously.

Dear Anet,
You have LOST a loyal PVP’R because I guess it is too hard a kitten concept to grasp fairness and making things “equal.”

People quit when things get hard. The truly special players push past that point.

Fear not, I am currently selling tin foil hats for 50 gold a piece! Get your protection today!

Shaogin.2679:

Fear not, I am currently selling tin foil hats for 50 gold a piece! Get your protection today!

You sir just channelled my feelings directly. Did we just become best friends?

@jmoney
Listen I’ve made high plat and legend and the games get crazy hard to crazy easy. But it’s because this game is much harder than anyone gives it credit for. I can hit those levels and I’m not super dedicated and I don’t think I’m like exceptionally talented or anything. As I said I’ve played at those levels and in tourneys. Yet the true top top level players make me look like I’m a wood rank still. Only solo q didn’t grind games for rank. Played a necro and usually not even the meta builds. I’ve honestly won most of my games by splitting between a div ammy chrono rune wells necro and a shout soldier pally necro. But what I learned most is no matter what build its all skill timing watching the mini map paying attention to enemy boons(I’m assuming you know to monitor what condis are on yourself and your hp). Know the other classes skills. <—that’s a big one.

NeXeD.3042:

Shaogin.2679:

Fear not, I am currently selling tin foil hats for 50 gold a piece! Get your protection today!

You sir just channelled my feelings directly. Did we just become best friends?

Shaogin.2679:

Fear not, I am currently selling tin foil hats for 50 gold a piece! Get your protection today!

Dude… If anet posts those on the BL… My necro says shut up and take my gems…!!

But talking seriously (as serious it could be) I like to see that evidence!!

The truth is out there…

let it go guys. I understand u are all angry. heck i get angry as well at times. but this is ridiculous.

Why be an apologist for the problems in GW2 pvp?
There are people posting hard evidence of this nowadays. Pay attention.
With ratings being visible it’s quite clear something is very wrong.
Apologize all you want but numbers and match history do not lie.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Why be an apologist for the problems in GW2 pvp?
There are people posting hard evidence of this nowadays. Pay attention.
With ratings being visible it’s quite clear something is very wrong.
Apologize all you want but numbers and match history do not lie.

Because when u start claiming things like a naughty list, things are getting a bit too ridiculous. I’m not disputing that they are flaws. I’m disputing claims of motivation?

things like they are doing this intentionally to make players play
naughty list
new players are intentionally fed to pro players so that pro players can stomp and troll them
pro players and likes only make teams so that they can make new players feel bad
things like this are absurd and extrodinary claims. atleast provide evidence and not enable this kind of nonsense. it brings everything down as a whole. if there was evidence of such a naughty list then i will eat my words and admit i’m wrong.

You just might be seeing that evidence soon actually.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

You just might be seeing that evidence soon actually.

I better be on the naughty list :P

Trevor Boyer.6524:

You just might be seeing that evidence soon actually.

come on man. I’m sure u don’t really believe this nonsense right? Focus on the actual trouble instead of trying to look into the minds of the developers.

we gotta chill.

I just imagine some dev reading the forums and he’s like “Oh this guy is such an kitten screw him! Let’s give him a bunch of impossible matches and teach him a lesson!”

The idea of a naughty list is ridiculous on so many levels that it isn’t worth refuting.

The fact that you made this thread without offering any such evidence shows that it is simply clickbait. “I’m about to EXPOSE Anet! Come back next week when I update the thread!”

Players are frustrated. I understand and share in these sentiments. However, threads like these without evidence makes the legitimate claims out there look like just another sad and pathetic attempt to excuse poor performance on the player’s part.

BYE.

eta – Have fun being added to The Naughty List for the rest of eternity.

MailMail.6534:

The idea of a naughty list is ridiculous on so many levels that it isn’t worth refuting.

The idea is not ridiculous at all. It’s not unheard of for game devs (in general) to create situations that are malicious against their own players based on ideological differences or having been offended. It’s rather just unlikely because big companies are more likely to adhere to recognizing the risks involved.

What is ridiculous is claiming plans to build proof of it on an open forum without expecting consequences. IF there is any such thing going on, the threat of being caught would likely result in it being covered up by simply removing the flag from any player claiming to study it.

I don’t believe there’s any such thing going on however. There’s currently too many logical flaws with the matching algorithm that are obviously problematic, and it doesn’t require a naughty list (or privileged list) to screw anyone over.

SneakyTouchy.6043:

MailMail.6534:

The idea of a naughty list is ridiculous on so many levels that it isn’t worth refuting.

The idea is not ridiculous at all. It’s not unheard of for game devs (in general) to create situations that are malicious against their own players based on ideological differences or having been offended. It’s rather just unlikely because big companies are more likely to adhere to recognizing the risks involved.

What is ridiculous is the idea you can claim to begin building proof of it on an open forum without expecting consequences. IF there is any such thing going on, the threat of being caught would likely result in it being covered up by simply removing the flag from any player claiming to study it.

I don’t believe there’s any such thing going on however. There’s too much going on with the matching algorithm that’s obviously problematic, and doesn’t require a naughty list (or privileged list) to screw anyone over.

Please enlighten me. When/where have malicious situations been instated against players in other games?

And you’re right. The system is such a mess and punishing enough. The devs are very busy. I doubt they’d waste their time targeting players. The idea is really laughable.

Evan Lesh.3295:

I’ll just leave this here:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm

got em

SneakyTouchy.6043:

There’s currently too many logical flaws with the matching algorithm that are obviously problematic, and it doesn’t require a naughty list (or privileged list) to screw anyone over.

I’m still not convinced that the system is flawed at all. I’m honestly going to put the constant complaints down to the following:

1) Not understanding the difference between a ranking system and a progression system
2) Not doing even basic research on how glicko works
3) Players having unrealistic expectations for what defines a “good matchup” (150 point differences between relatively equally skilled teams is not unheard of, all it takes is one wipe)
4) large amounts of confirmation bias (people cherrypicking the bad matches while ignoring all the good ones)
5) Refusal to acknowledge the practical limitations of any matchmaking system. (people only play a small percentage of the time meaning that out of the entire top 250 where are probably only 4-5 of them queuing at a time, thus it’s often impossible to create matches where all 10 participants have equivalent ratings)
6) excessively large egos.

Evan Lesh.3295:

I’ll just leave this here:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm

Not saying OP is correct, but Arenanet’s been ‘tweaking’ the matchmaking for 6 seasons now, so shoving a gw2w page in our faces doesn’t mean much.

MailMail.6534:

Please enlighten me. When/where have malicious situations been instated against players in other games?

And you’re right. The system is such a mess and punishing enough. The devs are very busy. I doubt they’d waste their time targeting players. The idea is really laughable.

When and where is irrelevant for two reasons. First, it’s a matter of fact that devs are human and all humans have a chance to behave poorly, lie, and cover up their poo to maintain their position. Secondly, there’s no evidence that Anet is doing it, so it’s not really a point worth supporting. I’m just saying that it’s not ridiculous to suspect based on human nature.

My biggest suspicion for these problems comes from this:

<Deviation default=“350” min=“30” max=“350”

This allows players with 1100 MMR to match up against players with 1800 MMR if the match deviates from 1450 MMR. This is virtually the entire spectrum of the PVP player base. Players are not being split into any form of ladder like they were during the first 4 or 5 seasons. This probably explains why matchmaking feels nearly instantaneous when populations are low. It’s putting players together from opposite ends of the bell curve.

Evan Lesh.3295:

I’ll just leave this here:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm

Or you could just explain why:

And we just made that “much” point because when it was over, three of them just sat at home chatting.

yanniell.1236:

Evan Lesh.3295:

I’ll just leave this here:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm

Or you could just explain why:

And we just made that “much” point because when it was over, three of them just sat at home chatting.

3 ppl that are afking in the base , its the ppl to blame , not the algorymth .
PPl are too casuals that afk , if the difference is more than 80 points .
Report for match manipulation and move on

Ryuk.6840:

yanniell.1236:

Evan Lesh.3295:

I’ll just leave this here:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm

Or you could just explain why:

And we just made that “much” point because when it was over, three of them just sat at home chatting.

3 ppl that are afking in the base , its the ppl to blame , not the algorymth .
PPl are too casuals that afk , if the difference is more than 80 points .
Report for match manipulation and move on

The enemy afk after secure the win, not our team.

SneakyTouchy.6043:

MailMail.6534:

Please enlighten me. When/where have malicious situations been instated against players in other games?

And you’re right. The system is such a mess and punishing enough. The devs are very busy. I doubt they’d waste their time targeting players. The idea is really laughable.

When and where is irrelevant for two reasons. First, it’s a matter of fact that devs are human and all humans have a chance to behave poorly, lie, and cover up their poo to maintain their position. Secondly, there’s no evidence that Anet is doing it, so it’s not really a point worth supporting. I’m just saying that it’s not ridiculous to suspect based on human nature.

This is conjecture, but for the sake of the thread, I digress.

MailMail.6534:

SneakyTouchy.6043:

MailMail.6534:

Please enlighten me. When/where have malicious situations been instated against players in other games?

And you’re right. The system is such a mess and punishing enough. The devs are very busy. I doubt they’d waste their time targeting players. The idea is really laughable.

When and where is irrelevant for two reasons. First, it’s a matter of fact that devs are human and all humans have a chance to behave poorly, lie, and cover up their poo to maintain their position. Secondly, there’s no evidence that Anet is doing it, so it’s not really a point worth supporting. I’m just saying that it’s not ridiculous to suspect based on human nature.

This is conjecture, but for the sake of the thread, I digress.

No it is not conjecture.

Ok guys the evidence has finally been posted here: Truthbang.net

Ramoth.9064:

Evan Lesh.3295:

I’ll just leave this here:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm

Not saying OP is correct, but Arenanet’s been ‘tweaking’ the matchmaking for 6 seasons now, so shoving a gw2w page in our faces doesn’t mean much.

Nah man they’ve just been testing the algorithm for 6 seasons, haven’t you gotten the memo?

Say there were evidence provided of let’s say 10 different players, who had screenshot and/or recorded evidence of their rating vs. rating histories, over the course of 60 to 80 ranked matches.

What if player 1 and player 2 had proof that 60% to 70% of their matches were favorable in terms of being on the higher rated team vs. a lower rated team.
What if players 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 had proof of estimates of 50% to 50%.
what if players 8, 9, 10 had proof of being on the lower rated side 70% of the time.

What would you say then? When it was in front of your face?
Would you call it simply luck for those 60 to 80 games?
Would you still call it luck after 3 seasons and 500+ games when the same
players are getting the same types of rhythms?

I want to hear actual answers on this.
I may form the project myself.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Say there were evidence provided of let’s say 10 different players, who had screenshot and/or recorded evidence of their rating vs. rating histories, over the course of 60 to 80 ranked matches.

What if player 1 and player 2 had proof that 60% to 70% of their matches were favorable in terms of being on the higher rated team vs. a lower rated team.
What if players 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 had proof of estimates of 50% to 50%.
what if players 8, 9, 10 had proof of being on the lower rated side 70% of the time.

What would you say then? When it was in front of your face?
Would you call it simply luck for those 60 to 80 games?
Would you still call it luck after 3 seasons and 500+ games when the same
players are getting the same types of rhythms?

I want to hear actual answers on this.
I may form the project myself.

So you want to get answers about a situation that you have no proof exists?

You’ve got a couple choices: Either a) present the evidence that any of the above is true, or b) go gather the evidence and then present it. I’m guessing you can’t do the first option, so starting on the second now would be prudent.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Say there were evidence provided of let’s say 10 different players, who had screenshot and/or recorded evidence of their rating vs. rating histories, over the course of 60 to 80 ranked matches.

What if player 1 and player 2 had proof that 60% to 70% of their matches were favorable in terms of being on the higher rated team vs. a lower rated team.
What if players 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 had proof of estimates of 50% to 50%.
what if players 8, 9, 10 had proof of being on the lower rated side 70% of the time.

What would you say then? When it was in front of your face?
Would you call it simply luck for those 60 to 80 games?
Would you still call it luck after 3 seasons and 500+ games when the same
players are getting the same types of rhythms?

I want to hear actual answers on this.
I may form the project myself.

60 to 80 matches is a small sample size. If you want the matchmaker to show it is doing its job then more matches would be better. Around 150 would begin to provide better accuracy.

You would need to take into account any possible deviations of rating due to any dishonor or similar factor. Decay could also be something that could have an impact on the rating that is viewed when you collect the data at the beginning/end of match. So the matchmaker might view it as higher in determining a match but unless you verified each players rating is without decay then you would only see their effective rating

Then you have to take into account player skill which would make testing the winrate between multiple players challenging due to the simple fact they are not the same player. Their skills will vary.

Then there are also random and external factors such as lag spikes, trolls, and real life situations or off matches on your end that would further skew the data.

Tldr: If you were looking for accurate data you would need hundreds and hundreds of games across multiple accounts with only a few players playing the multiple accounts and further throw away matches that are affected by lag or other external force

Evan Lesh.3295:

I’ll just leave this here:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm

Lol, wow Evan Lives! I haven’t seen him post in a bit. You have roused the silent programming wizard.

On a side note, I think what should really be focused on, is why do people FEEL the Matchmaker isn’t working, even if the data says it is.

The thought that one team has an overall lower rating then the other is having a much more profound effect on the PvP population then prior, and I think a lot of average players that used to have a rather solid rating have ended up with rather unstable ratings and matches causing people to lose trust in the system.

So It would be a good idea to discuss the concept around why people believe there are unfair, underhanded lists or matchmaking is tilted against them on a so much larger scale than before.

It could be one small thing going on, (like bronze on the same team as gold) that causes this belief.

I myself felt like this for many seasons.
But I guess is the other way around, when people are unhappy with matchmaking (and they should), they unleash their rage on the forum.

But I’ve seen tons of threads complaining about matchmaking without a single reply from any developer, and the fact that this one deserved Evan attention makes me guess again.

Evan Lesh.3295:

I’ll just leave this here:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm

Matchmaking is the process of organizing players in such a way as to encourage competitive and fun gameplay.

There are way to many matches that are neither fun nor competitive.

Evan Lesh.3295:

I’ll just leave this here:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm

Evan, I’m going to leave this right here…WHY DO YOU CONTINUE TO ALLOW DOUBLE DUO QUEUE VS ALL SOLO? Fix that bull crap already. Just finished a match with double duo queue with one duo being two top twenty players and people on my team still doing placements matches. What is wrong with you people and your crappy system?

Pyriall.1683:

Evan Lesh.3295:

I’ll just leave this here:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm

Evan, I’m going to leave this right here…WHY DO YOU CONTINUE TO ALLOW DOUBLE DUO QUEUE VS ALL SOLO? Fix that bull crap already. Just finished a match with double duo queue with one duo being two top twenty players and people on my team still doing placements matches. What is wrong with you people and your crappy system?

Matchmaking working as intended

Lol who cares all that much anyways. As more and more people feels beyond a shadow of a doubt of being wronged on all angles by the match maker. They will cease to entertain such a mis justice that they do not every to do in the first place.

No carrot, nor any wiki linked by the devs. Is going to slow down the rate people are evacuating GW2’s Ranked pvp leagues. More so when they actually take the time to do the equations on their own. And to find out what they perceived to be a mis justice against them is completely right.

In the end not even ANet will win. Cause karma is a something hard and heavy and even ANet nor these who benefits can outrun for long. Enjoy your continuously declining population. While you all sit here and just lazily link old links and throw names, at people whom are actually doing mathematical research, like it’s a collage math thesis.

Ok, how many times does this need to be referenced this week?
Read this -> https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/matchmaking-algo-BROKEN-w-evidence/first
Although this isn’t a project put together by 10 different people over the course of 100 games each, it’s a good start. The important thing to note here is that this example has nothing to do with match manipulation smurfing, afking, dcing or any forms of typical garbage circumstance. No, this match numerically has all of the highest integers stacked on one side. That was the algorithm’s choice my friend and it was not an accident. So the question is: Why in the hell would it create a super lopsided match out of a roster of 10 rated integers that could have been easily configured for a balanced match where both sides were within 50 rating of each other? And what function in the algorithm chooses who gets to benefit from this and who is fed to it?

I won’t even say anything else yet. I can see that most people want to see more numbers to support any evidence of a good/bad list. But I will say that you can’t be an apologist for the above evidence. If you were to see a larger scale version of this, spanned over 100s of games amongst multiple accounts, showing questionable good/bad list behavior, would you still apologize for it?

Hey, I’m not saying the good/bad list exists. But I am saying that something within the algorithm is creating an effect that looks exactly like a good/bad list exists. If you haven’t noticed what I am talking about, clearly you have never managed teams/guilds and had to pay attention to the personal histories of other players aside from yourself.

And reposting that link to the algorithm notes is a negligent defense. The algorithm is exactly what is in question here. Aside from what it says in those notes, players are noticing a lot of odd algorithm behavior that would beg to differ if those patch notes are truthful or not. I also think it’s funny that anyone acts like they can understand what that code means at all, outside of anet programmers. Those notes are pretty arcane to lamen eyes.

Sorry anet, just a lot of activity going on that doesn’t make sense.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

I also think it’s funny that anyone acts like they can understand what that code means at all, outside of anet programmers. Those notes are pretty arcane to lamen eyes.

I would hardly call the code arcane. All you have to do is pick up a book for a half hour to figure out what it means. I’m hardly a software engineer but I have taken courses and read a couple text books for fun and I can understand the gist of what is going on. Their notes on the page are also fairly good to help someone else understand what is going on with a little effort.

The fact that there are so many threads about the matchmaker show people have little knowledge about how glicko or the matchmaker works. Regardless, it’s not rocket science if you’re willing to read. You can’t just look at it and go “yup, just what I thought, gibberish. They must be trying to pull a fast one on us.” I digress.

Maybe try writing the code out on a piece of paper and wherever they reference a certain portion in their notes make a mark and reread that when you get there in the code?

Evan Lesh.3295:

I’ll just leave this here:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm

Regardless of how the matchmaker works do you think you will be taking biggers steps with leavers or afk’s like suspencion from the rest of the season or even Ban if they do this on multiple seasons? This attitude in game lower the competitive spirit alot of ppl want from pvp.

no one is really providing any solutions, so ill throw about some of mine:

1 video/cinematic tutorial
2 additions to the rank placement match algorithm (knowledge + dodge test)
3 more frequent balance patches / more separate game mode balancing
4 some sort of stop gap measure for cheaters i.e. disable /w and mail during ranked
5 more maps, modes, and skills made available