Guild Wars 2

Problem: Currently there are certain mechanics that are too forgiving and thus could be abused. By making changes we can get rid of these exploit-like tactics and create more skilful play.

Warrior:
Currently, burst skills only go on recharge if the attack connects. If a burst skill is evaded/blocked or misses through blind or you misjudged the range, your adrenaline stays full.

Which is stupid since it makes dodging pretty much ineffective since you can just pretty much spam Earthshaker/Skull Crack until either hits after stability is down and one of the factors that’s making warriors easy mode. You can pretty much stun a target every 5 seconds with Earth Shaker or Skull crack which ever hits and the opponent won’t be able to avoid it.

It also allows Hammer/Mace warriors to use Earthshaker as a mobility tool as long as they don’t hit anything and overall this mobility is even better than the ele’s.

Solutions: Make burst skills expend adrenaline regardless of success + No cleansing ire proc on fail/ Make burst skills share a cooldown between weapon sets.

Thief:
Similar to above, a you can simply spam stealth and a Sneak Attack i.e. Backstab until it hits since you are not revealed if the attack misses or gets dodged or blocked.

Solution: Allow Thieves to execute only one Sneak Attack per stealth application/ Make the Revealed debuff apply regardless of whether an attack from stealth hits or not.

Mesmer:
Currently Shatter skills only go on recharge when they produce an effect, i.e. if you have no illusions up and are not taking Illusionary Persona, the shatter skill is recharged instantly bar global cooldown on shatter.

Solution: Make shatters go on full recharge. This will force mesmers to be more aware of their illusions as they go down.

I agree with both the thief and warrior suggestions. In regards to missing attacks still consuming resources, I believe this should apply to the Engineer as well. If they use supply kit while blinded or if it hits nothing, then the box should magically be empty. 8D

Oh, and, in addition to making it so that players are revealed when they miss attacks during stealth, I think they should be removed from stealth if they are hit during it.

Leaving that suggestion as it is would make thieves a bit too weak, imo, so I also suggest that every time someone enters stealth, they gain a buff (that lasts 2 seconds or so; 3 seems a bit much) that prevents them from being removed from stealth if they’re hit while the buff is up. That way you don’t get autodragged out of stealth right after casting it.

I agree withthe thief suggestion, to a lesser extend.

Currently thieves can spam backstabs on a blocking person, and dont get revealed. I think that should change.

Backstab and hit: revealed 4 seconds
Backstab in a block: 2 seconds.
Backstab in an evade: 2 seconds.
Backstab misses while in range (blind): 2 seconds
Backstab in the air: remain stealthes.

Also, the mesmer suggestion would do absolutely nothing for players who know what theyre doing, only new ones dont keep track of illusions.

edit: completely agree on the warrior suggestion

Search forums history. This one has already been addressed 10 months ago.

Zeon.8239:

Oh, and, in addition to making it so that players are revealed when they miss attacks during stealth, I think they should be removed from stealth if they are hit during it.

Leaving that suggestion as it is would make thieves a bit too weak, imo, so I also suggest that every time someone enters stealth, they gain a buff (that lasts 2 seconds or so; 3 seems a bit much) that prevents them from being removed from stealth if they’re hit while the buff is up. That way you don’t get autodragged out of stealth right after casting it.

They don’t need to be revealed on hit. What needs to be toned down is blind spam so that you can actually hit them while they’re stealthed. You should be rewarded for knowing where your opponent is, but not that much.

Alternatively, if a function could be implemented that made your translucent appearance pulse while attacking during stealth, with a full reveal only applying on a successful hit, that would be interesting to see.

I mostly agree with Leuca. Though I don’t really mind the blind spam since if the blind disappears then you know you hit the thief but I do mind that Eles are much worse at detecting stealth since their auto attacks aren’t chain-based so it’s impossible to know if you’re hitting a thief or not. Some audio effect when you hit a stealthed target would be nice imo.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

Search forums history. This one has already been addressed 10 months ago.

I didn’t know what to search for, care to link a few threads?

Many warriors are asking to spend their adrenaline even if the attack misses: many times they are more interested into using Cleansing Ire to surviva than actually hitting someone, expecially when focused.

Stability is too forgiving, so is aegis. Just my thoughts, don’t rage. I really, really dislike the abundance of stability that certain professions can bring. Some professions bring stability, condi removal, reflect, and aegis all in one and that’s OP. With stun break affecting knockback, why even try to CC anymore? It’s too easy to spam your way out of an interrupt or CC. That same profession (guardian) brings a warding and don’t forget ele’s stunlock field. These skills basically make stability too OP to be ignored.

Warrior utilities apply here too right? Berserker’s stance, endure pain, and healing sig all seem very forgiving to me.

Chopps.5047:

Stability is too forgiving, so is aegis. Just my thoughts, don’t rage. I really, really dislike the abundance of stability that certain professions can bring. Some professions bring stability, condi removal, reflect, and aegis all in one and that’s OP. With stun break affecting knockback, why even try to CC anymore? It’s too easy to spam your way out of an interrupt or CC. That same profession (guardian) brings a warding and don’t forget ele’s stunlock field. These skills basically make stability too OP to be ignored.

You have never fought a hammer/mace warrior, have you? Some might say that other classes should have as much cc removal as a guardian

Ryan.9387:

Warrior utilities apply here too right? Berserker’s stance, endure pain, and healing sig all seem very forgiving to me.

^ totally agree. Not really much timing to it.

zencow.3651:

Problem: Currently there are certain mechanics that are too forgiving and thus could be abused. By making changes we can get rid of these exploit-like tactics and create more skilful play.

Warrior:
Currently, burst skills only go on recharge if the attack connects. If a burst skill is evaded/blocked or misses through blind or you misjudged the range, your adrenaline stays full.

Which is stupid since it makes dodging pretty much ineffective since you can just pretty much spam Earthshaker/Skull Crack until either hits after stability is down and one of the factors that’s making warriors easy mode. You can pretty much stun a target every 5 seconds with Earth Shaker or Skull crack which ever hits and the opponent won’t be able to avoid it.

It also allows Hammer/Mace warriors to use Earthshaker as a mobility tool as long as they don’t hit anything and overall this mobility is even better than the ele’s.

Solutions: Make burst skills expend adrenaline regardless of success/ Make burst skills share a cooldown between weapon sets.

Thief:
Similar to above, a you can simply spam stealth and a Sneak Attack i.e. Backstab until it hits since you are not revealed if the attack misses or gets dodged or blocked.

Solution: Make the Revealed debuff apply regardless of whether an attack from stealth hits or not.

Mesmer:
Currently Shatter skills only go on recharge when they produce an effect, i.e. if you have no illusions up and are not taking Illusionary Persona, the shatter skill is recharged instantly bar global cooldown on shatter.

Solution: Make shatters go on full recharge. This will force mesmers to be more aware of their illusions as they go down.

I lol’d at the bold text there. Between the slow cast time and the aftercast, Earthshaker isn’t much (if at all) faster than running. Warrior mobility comes from Savage Leap, Rush, Whirlwind.

On that note, one bug I’d like to see fixed is that the range mobility skills is affected by swiftness/quickness. Quickness causes the range of these skills to be extra short and to often miss (especially Earthshaker) while swiftness allows them to reach far beyond their normal max range.

Kharr.5746:

I lol’d at the bold text there. Between the slow cast time and the aftercast, Earthshaker isn’t much (if at all) faster than running.

I know it sounds ridiculous, but when I’m chasing people around in Hot-join or WvW when stuck in combat with Hammer/Mace or Hammer/Longbow, it certainly doesn’t feel that way. Cancelling Earthshaker by weapon-swapping before it touches down removes the aftercast too but then you could only Earthshaker every 10 seconds. Depends on how far the target is really.

Have also been on the receiving end too as an ele. I couldn’t get away with the nerfed RtL even with Lightning Flash as the warrior eventually caught up with Earthshaker. Sad but true.

Kharr.5746:

On that note, one bug I’d like to see fixed is that the range mobility skills is affected by swiftness/quickness. Quickness causes the range of these skills to be extra short and to often miss (especially Earthshaker) while swiftness allows them to reach far beyond their normal max range.

Trust me you don’ t want to get that fixed, think about heartseeker not being affected by chill and crippled…

zencow.3651:

Problem: Currently there are certain mechanics that are too forgiving and thus could be abused. By making changes we can get rid of these exploit-like tactics and create more skilful play.

Warrior:
Currently, burst skills only go on recharge if the attack connects. If a burst skill is evaded/blocked or misses through blind or you misjudged the range, your adrenaline stays full.

Which is stupid since it makes dodging pretty much ineffective since you can just pretty much spam Earthshaker/Skull Crack until either hits after stability is down and one of the factors that’s making warriors easy mode. You can pretty much stun a target every 5 seconds with Earth Shaker or Skull crack which ever hits and the opponent won’t be able to avoid it.

It also allows Hammer/Mace warriors to use Earthshaker as a mobility tool as long as they don’t hit anything and overall this mobility is even better than the ele’s.

Solutions: Make burst skills expend adrenaline regardless of success/ Make burst skills share a cooldown between weapon sets.

Thief:
Similar to above, a you can simply spam stealth and a Sneak Attack i.e. Backstab until it hits since you are not revealed if the attack misses or gets dodged or blocked.

Solution: Make the Revealed debuff apply regardless of whether an attack from stealth hits or not.

Mesmer:
Currently Shatter skills only go on recharge when they produce an effect, i.e. if you have no illusions up and are not taking Illusionary Persona, the shatter skill is recharged instantly bar global cooldown on shatter.

Solution: Make shatters go on full recharge. This will force mesmers to be more aware of their illusions as they go down.

A fairer solution to the Thief one would be to make only the first slot1 attack upon going into stealth produce a stealth attack (Backstab, Sneak Attack, etc), with the latter attacks becoming regular auto-attacks if the first missed or was blocked, evaded, etc.

This way the Thief only gets 1 chance to land the stealth attack, which raises the skill floor and allows for proper counterplay, and revealed still only applies when you actually deal damage.

You guys make it seem like backstab thieves are what’s causing this horrible meta -_- backstab thieves are the least of your concerns right now. Even s/d thieves are way more threatening.

If you play a thief you should know how to counter one.

redslion.9675:

Chopps.5047:

Stability is too forgiving, so is aegis. Just my thoughts, don’t rage. I really, really dislike the abundance of stability that certain professions can bring. Some professions bring stability, condi removal, reflect, and aegis all in one and that’s OP. With stun break affecting knockback, why even try to CC anymore? It’s too easy to spam your way out of an interrupt or CC. That same profession (guardian) brings a warding and don’t forget ele’s stunlock field. These skills basically make stability too OP to be ignored.

You have never fought a hammer/mace warrior, have you? Some might say that other classes should have as much cc removal as a guardian

You agree with what I’m saying: stability is OP precisely for reasons like that. I hate the way stability just negates the need for more active stun breaking. Guardian’s OP precisely because of all the stabilty they have plus all the CC they do.

@zencow

Do you know how biased you sound? You did NOT include being able to have indefinite evade frames and you also did not include being able to use more than one stun break as brainless mechanics.

Rethink your topic please and include these. Don’t include these and all your thread does is a cry for nerfs on classes you don’t even play.

Chopps.5047:

redslion.9675:

Chopps.5047:

Stability is too forgiving, so is aegis. Just my thoughts, don’t rage. I really, really dislike the abundance of stability that certain professions can bring. Some professions bring stability, condi removal, reflect, and aegis all in one and that’s OP. With stun break affecting knockback, why even try to CC anymore? It’s too easy to spam your way out of an interrupt or CC. That same profession (guardian) brings a warding and don’t forget ele’s stunlock field. These skills basically make stability too OP to be ignored.

You have never fought a hammer/mace warrior, have you? Some might say that other classes should have as much cc removal as a guardian

You agree with what I’m saying: stability is OP precisely for reasons like that. I hate the way stability just negates the need for more active stun breaking. Guardian’s OP precisely because of all the stability they have plus all the CC they do.

Guardians;
Lack mobility
Their limited CC has the most overt animations in game
Without their stability chaining their a tier 3 HP walk overs
The runes they use can grant stability by flipping conditions. This is not stability inherent to themselves
Their Dmg output is weak.
The upcoming “leaked” patch notes will only allow stability up to 5x duration
Stability/condi removal is pretty much all they have going for them and their sustain is less than squishy classes currently due to their base low HP pool and lack of true balanced power builds.
The reason they remain viable is because they only get used on Mid and their stability allows to hold until their dmg turns up and allows them to get finishes in push/pull/throw heavy situations.
The guardian needs true separation from warrior to justify it’s existence. This is one way a-net have achieved this. Their name “Guardian” pretty much describes them. They Guard a single point well. Without numerous ways to Guard, they may as well be called Low alcohol, zero calories, fat free warriors.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

Lack mobility

Their Dmg output is weak.

Mobility? Swords Flashing Blade, GS Leap of Faith and Judge’s Intervention were just enough for me as I played guardian a while ago.

Dmg? It’s not thief but GS is great, also Spirit Weapons give you a fair amount of DPS

Guardians are fine right now.

Amaterasu.6280:

You guys make it seem like backstab thieves are what’s causing this horrible meta -_- backstab thieves are the least of your concerns right now. Even s/d thieves are way more threatening.

If you play a thief you should know how to counter one.

Amir.1570:

@zencow

Do you know how biased you sound? You did NOT include being able to have indefinite evade frames and you also did not include being able to use more than one stun break as brainless mechanics.

Rethink your topic please and include these. Don’t include these and all your thread does is a cry for nerfs on classes you don’t even play.

It’s brainless but it’s punishable.

S/D thieves aren’t as OP as people cry. The evade frame is only Flanking Strike, after which the thief is vulnerable to a stun/fear/whatever before he lands Larcenous Strike. Larcenous Strike is also pretty easy to dodge.

It takes abit more skill to use S/D properly without getting destroyed compared to D/P blind spam.

I’ll rethink about adding them to my OP but as it stands it’s not brainlessly effective enough and I can’t think of any solutions that would turn them from overpowered to useless instantly.

zencow.3651:

Amaterasu.6280:

You guys make it seem like backstab thieves are what’s causing this horrible meta -_- backstab thieves are the least of your concerns right now. Even s/d thieves are way more threatening.

If you play a thief you should know how to counter one.

Amir.1570:

@zencow

Do you know how biased you sound? You did NOT include being able to have indefinite evade frames and you also did not include being able to use more than one stun break as brainless mechanics.

Rethink your topic please and include these. Don’t include these and all your thread does is a cry for nerfs on classes you don’t even play.

It’s brainless but it’s punishable.

S/D thieves aren’t as OP as people cry. The evade frame is only Flanking Strike, after which the thief is vulnerable to a stun/fear/whatever before he lands Larcenous Strike. Larcenous Strike is also pretty easy to dodge.

It takes abit more skill to use S/D properly without getting destroyed compared to D/P blind spam.

I’ll rethink about adding them to my OP but as it stands it’s not brainlessly effective enough and I can’t think of any solutions that would turn them from overpowered to useless instantly.

O_o

S/D thief brings:

High sustain damage
Good 1vs1 capabilities
Strong disangage even without CDs
Ridicolous Mobility
Great condi cleansing
Decent Burst
AoE cleave

D/P offers
High burst
Good disangage when CDs are there
Decent sustained damage
Decent mobility
Mediocre 1vs1 capabilities
Decent condi cleansing
Blinds

And you talk about D/P being OP ?

I play S/D and i would really BEG to have S/D to be skillful like it was before, or like D/P actually is ( and always have been, but it’s still a boring set)

Now you can EFFECTIVELY spam 3 and be a lot more effective than you should.

This without accounting how ridicolously OP Inf Strike is.

S/D thief is too forgiving, the whole sword set is too forgiving: if you play bad, you simply port away, cleanse/heal then come back 4-5 secs later.

I want my class to be good and to require skill, yet the misinformation and bad feedback is astounishing, and this is clearly an example of it.

Alissah.9281:

I agree withthe thief suggestion, to a lesser extend.

Currently thieves can spam backstabs on a blocking person, and dont get revealed. I think that should change.

Backstab and hit: revealed 4 seconds
Backstab in a block: 2 seconds.
Backstab in an evade: 2 seconds.
Backstab misses while in range (blind): 2 seconds
Backstab in the air: remain stealthes.

Also, the mesmer suggestion would do absolutely nothing for players who know what theyre doing, only new ones dont keep track of illusions.

edit: completely agree on the warrior suggestion

Thieves are pretty weak at this point. You all are still struggling against them?

Mrbig.8019:

O_o

S/D thief brings:

High sustain damage
Good 1vs1 capabilities
Strong disangage even without CDs
Ridicolous Mobility
Great condi cleansing
Decent Burst
AoE cleave

D/P offers
High burst
Good disangage when CDs are there
Decent sustained damage
Decent mobility
Mediocre 1vs1 capabilities
Decent condi cleansing
Blinds

And you talk about D/P being OP ?

I play S/D and i would really BEG to have S/D to be skillful like it was before, or like D/P actually is ( and always have been, but it’s still a boring set)

Now you can EFFECTIVELY spam 3 and be a lot more effective than you should.

This without accounting how ridicolously OP Inf Strike is.

S/D thief is too forgiving, the whole sword set is too forgiving: if you play bad, you simply port away, cleanse/heal then come back 4-5 secs later.

I want my class to be good and to require skill, yet the misinformation and bad feedback is astounishing, and this is clearly an example of it.

I’m not saying D/P is more OP than S/D, I’m providing reasons why S/D shouldn’t get too overly nerfed, especially due to it’s OPness only being mainly because it counters the condi/spam meta so well and it’s boon suction is getting nerfed soon too.

zencow.3651:

I can’t think of any solutions that would turn them from overpowered to useless instantly.

So your suggestions? Your feedback is not anymore helpful if you simply rant. As much as I like how skillful S/D use to be, being about to smash a thief in the face while he is stuck in Larcenous Strike part of the animation is not skillful for the opponent now is it?

zencow.3651:

Amaterasu.6280:

You guys make it seem like backstab thieves are what’s causing this horrible meta -_- backstab thieves are the least of your concerns right now. Even s/d thieves are way more threatening.

If you play a thief you should know how to counter one.

Amir.1570:

@zencow

Do you know how biased you sound? You did NOT include being able to have indefinite evade frames and you also did not include being able to use more than one stun break as brainless mechanics.

Rethink your topic please and include these. Don’t include these and all your thread does is a cry for nerfs on classes you don’t even play.

It’s brainless but it’s punishable.

S/D thieves aren’t as OP as people cry. The evade frame is only Flanking Strike, after which the thief is vulnerable to a stun/fear/whatever before he lands Larcenous Strike. Larcenous Strike is also pretty easy to dodge.

It takes abit more skill to use S/D properly without getting destroyed compared to D/P blind spam.

I’ll rethink about adding them to my OP but as it stands it’s not brainlessly effective enough and I can’t think of any solutions that would turn them from overpowered to useless instantly.

What are you even saying? S/D has tons of evade frames, and amazing disengage. S/D thieves can over commit, and immediately back off with the amount of disengage they have. It does not take more skill because its just dodge spam. Compared to D/P, enemy players actually have to STAND in your Black Powder (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Black_Powder), or use Shadow Shots to blind big hits.

For both these builds you still do have to watch animations, but for S/D is much, MUCH more forgiving because your endurance bar (and initiative) feels nearly infinite.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

zencow.3651:

Amaterasu.6280:

You guys make it seem like backstab thieves are what’s causing this horrible meta -_- backstab thieves are the least of your concerns right now. Even s/d thieves are way more threatening.

If you play a thief you should know how to counter one.

Amir.1570:

@zencow

Do you know how biased you sound? You did NOT include being able to have indefinite evade frames and you also did not include being able to use more than one stun break as brainless mechanics.

Rethink your topic please and include these. Don’t include these and all your thread does is a cry for nerfs on classes you don’t even play.

It’s brainless but it’s punishable.

S/D thieves aren’t as OP as people cry. The evade frame is only Flanking Strike, after which the thief is vulnerable to a stun/fear/whatever before he lands Larcenous Strike. Larcenous Strike is also pretty easy to dodge.

It takes abit more skill to use S/D properly without getting destroyed compared to D/P blind spam.

I’ll rethink about adding them to my OP but as it stands it’s not brainlessly effective enough and I can’t think of any solutions that would turn them from overpowered to useless instantly.

What are you even saying? S/D has tons of evade frames, and amazing disengage. S/D thieves can over commit, and immediately back off with the amount of disengage they have. It does not take more skill because its just dodge spam. Compared to D/P, enemy players actually have to STAND in your Black Powder (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Black_Powder), or use Shadow Shots to blind big hits.

For both these builds you still do have to watch animations, but for S/D is much, MUCH more forgiving because your endurance bar (and initiative) feels nearly infinite.

But imo the OPness isn’t due to S/D inherently. It’s the combination of cheap initiative costs, traits and synergy with withdraw and RFI that let you spam 3 and Infiltrator/Shadow Return whenever you want. I just don’t see how you would nerf it in a way that would make the offending build weaker without severly crippling S/D when not used in a spam spam context and make it infinitely more worthless than D/P as it use to be.

Why are people trying to make warrior easier to play, whilst removing some of the only counter play strategies condition classes have?

And after months of trying to make the community aware of CC warrior viability this thread made me lol

Phaeton.9582:

Why are people trying to make warrior easier to play, whilst removing some of the only counter play strategies condition classes have?

And after months of trying to make the community aware of CC warrior viability this thread made me lol

No cleasing ire proc on fail!

well, A-Net clearly stated they want it to be casual-friendly and therefore get as many players able to play it, within hours. The result is passive and spammable abilities.
I’m sorry to tell you, but if you expect this game to be challenging and competitive, with a high skill-floor, then you pick the false game.