Guild Wars 2

One of my favorite parts of RPGs is finding new and crazy builds. Right now, GW2 has very little capacity for this. Sure, the gimmick combos and synergies are there, but it’s very rare that you are able to effectively make a build utilizing these combos. Often times, buildcraft boils down to simply taking the objectively best traits. What makes things even more difficult is that most every class has a trait or two that are “must-have.”

One example that I am very familiar with is “Fast Hands” on Warrior. I would love to drop the Discipline line to get some more interesting combos in PvP (and open world PvE), but a Warrior without 5 second weapon swaps just screws with the whole flow of the class and dramatically screws with the class’s effectiveness.

ANet did this once already with Illusionary Persona on Mesmer and I feel that every class probably has at least one trait like this. That being said, there’s still going to be a problem where some traits are so good the other two in that tier get totally ignored because they can’t compete. It would be nice to see more traits have synergy with traits in other lines more frequently. Right now, many lines are self contained and all have synergy in that line only. One notable exception is the Berserker line trait Eternal Champion and Rousing Resilience. You can even add Savage Instinct into the mix, but then you would be missing out on Smash Brawler, which is just way more useful.

While I’m normally not in favor of power creep, I am far more in favor of there being more variety in this game. So long as every class gets a few traits made baseline, I feel that we can start to see more build diversity. Sure, they might not be meta level, but so long as they are viable I would be satisfied.

Very, very few traits should be made baseline, and of those that are it needs to be traits that are actively fixing some flaw in the classes’ design. Illusionary persona needed to be baseline because mesmer was at the time the only class that couldn’t just use their class mechanic in combat without first doing something else unless they were running that trait. Nothing stopped engineers from using toolbelt skills, nothing stopped thieves from using steal, or necromancers from using shroud, or rangers from using pets. But mesmer had to get an illusion up before being able to use its class mechanic. That was a design flaw that was addressed by making the trait that fixed it baseline.

Fast Hands is not at all the same thing. Its not fixing some design flaw with warrior. Making it baseline would be pure powercreep. Not only is it powercreep because its very strong, but it no longer forces you to make a choice to take it. You wouldn’t have to take the discipline line for it anymore if fast hands was baseline, allowing you to take a “stronger” traitline, which is even more powercreep.

Fast hands is a perfect example of a trait that should never be made baseline, because it doesn’t actually fix any design problems with warrior.

OriOri.8724:

Fast hands is a perfect example of a trait that should never be made baseline, because it doesn’t actually fix any design problems with warrior.

I would say that it is a very major design flaw. The whole class is designed around having the ability to have 5 second weapon swaps. Try playing a PvP Warrior without it, the flow of the class feels wrong. In addition, you’re just objectively weaker. I can’t think of any prevalent Warrior build that didn’t use it.

Your argument about Mesmer also doesn’t hold up. Warrior doesn’t get to use their class mechanic without hitting something a bunch or using a skill that doesn’t come by default. You CAN use a Warrior without Fast hands, but it would have been like not having IP for Mes, it felt wrong.

OriOri.8724:

Very, very few traits should be made baseline, and of those that are it needs to be traits that are actively fixing some flaw in the classes’ design. Illusionary persona needed to be baseline because mesmer was at the time the only class that couldn’t just use their class mechanic in combat without first doing something else unless they were running that trait. Nothing stopped engineers from using toolbelt skills, nothing stopped thieves from using steal, or necromancers from using shroud, or rangers from using pets. But mesmer had to get an illusion up before being able to use its class mechanic. That was a design flaw that was addressed by making the trait that fixed it baseline.

Fast Hands is not at all the same thing. Its not fixing some design flaw with warrior. Making it baseline would be pure powercreep. Not only is it powercreep because its very strong, but it no longer forces you to make a choice to take it. You wouldn’t have to take the discipline line for it anymore if fast hands was baseline, allowing you to take a “stronger” traitline, which is even more powercreep.

Fast hands is a perfect example of a trait that should never be made baseline, because it doesn’t actually fix any design problems with warrior.

Trickery has been mandatory for 5 years basically because Anet balances weapon spells costs around extra ini that trickery gives :/

Poor balance of thief’s mechanic is indeed an issue, but you guys can use your mechanic even without taking trickery. Having that 3 extra initiative baseline would really help thieves out a lot, and I could support that. But fast hands is not at all mandatory to play warrior. Its just necessary to play warrior how OP wants to play it

OriOri.8724:

Poor balance of thief’s mechanic is indeed an issue, but you guys can use your mechanic even without taking trickery. Having that 3 extra initiative baseline would really help thieves out a lot, and I could support that. But fast hands is not at all mandatory to play warrior. Its just necessary to play warrior how OP wants to play it

Find me one viable PvP build that doesn’t use Fast Hands. Also, Discipline would still be good due to Warrior’s Sprint. Of course, the problem with that trait is that the other choices are pretty garbage. There’s also Burst Mastery, Brawler’s Recovery, and DotE, so it’s not like Discipline wouldn’t still be getting taken in 9/10 builds. All merging Fast Hands with the base class would do is open a couple of other build options with Arm, Strength, and Tactics. Defense and Berserker are too good to pass up most of the time unless you want a glass cannon build. It’s not as big of a issue in organized PvE, the other lines see use there, especially Tactics. That being said, Wars focus on support in PvE would probably also be helped with the baseline quick swap. At the very least it would make the rotation more interesting.

Thieves would be able to have a ton of variety a baseline Preparedness because the devs clearly designed the class around the idea that . I just don’t understand how you dob’t see that the same applies to Warriors. It’s clear they designed the class around the idea that Fast Hands exists.

Some classes don’t have a must-have trait, but several do. In many cases, the line that those traits are in would still be good regardless, it would just allow you a bit of build variety without totally gimping your build.

Why not merge them as baseline in a “Core” Elite spec based on the profession mechanic by making it a minor in that line. This would nerf basically all HoT builds (except ele I guess, but that has the problem of tempest being arcana++, and could be adjusted so that tempest has 15s attunement recharge baseline), and open up alternative builds by making elite specs always have to “give up” something to be taken. It would also allow for easier balance, as you could preserve “Core” builds by moving problematic traits into the “core” spec line, while also having elite specs present a completely different playstyle.

With warrior, that means you pick between frequent weapon swaps or going crazy on the burst skills.
Eles pick between faster attunement swaps (10s vs 15s) or having overloads.
Mesmers pick between more frequent shatters that are powered up (and maybe put deceptive evasion into illusions line) vs. having cont. split and chronophantasma.
Necros pick between better LF gen. capabilities and regular shroud vs. reaper that sustains its own LF a bit better baseline.
Thieves pick between a burst-steal specialist or a dodge-heavy monkey.
Engies pick between better toolbelt skills or having that gyro.
Rangers pick between more powerful pets or getting astral force and healing.
Revs pick between greater utility on legend-swaps and glint + boon-play.
Guards choose between base virtues that can be quite powerful for the team (esp. when traited) and DH virtues that are more selfish but have some extra utility.

There should be no free lunch.

can someone from Anet balance team please comment on this thread??? At least to let us know your workin on it?

they seriously have a point about thief’s trickery line and the requirement for the initiative. its gotten to the point where if your not running dare devil, deadly arts, and trickery your not competitive whether your building for condi OR damage. im sure there are these same issues with other classes.

It is the consequence of choices and a PvP scene cannot function without some form of opportunity lost. What you’re suggesting is a power creep slippery slope and you need to ask yourself this question:

Does this address a mechanical flaw or is it to make a class competitive (even if the class is not competitive at all)?

Two stuff are distinct despite they’re related to each other, even if every effective build requires that trait. If we made something baseline people will start saying without taking another/new traits or traitline you won’t be competitive. Thus we’re back to square one. In warrior’s case, this may as well be adrenal health ever since the rework.

The Mechanic.3567:

they seriously have a point about thief’s trickery line and the requirement for the initiative.

Tickery’s dominance isn’t because of the 3 initiative. If trickery only had the 3 initative trait it would never be taken.

Tickery is always taken because of how good Slight of Hand, Thrill of the Crime, and Bountiful theft are, on top of having Preparedness.

Tickery’s major and minor traits are better than every other core thief traitlines put together.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

It is the consequence of choices and a PvP scene cannot function without some form of opportunity lost. What you’re suggesting is a power creep slippery slope and you need to ask yourself this question:

Does this address a mechanical flaw or is it to make a class competitive (even if the class is not competitive at all)?

Two stuff are distinct despite they’re related to each other, even if every effective build requires that trait. If we made something baseline people will start saying without taking another/new traits or traitline you won’t be competitive. Thus we’re back to square one. In warrior’s case, this may as well be adrenal health ever since the rework.

It is power creep, but in theory if every class gets one baseline trait then it should roughly even out. Is it really healthy for the game to just always have a trait line that every build uses because the class is weak without it.

I wouldn’t be opposed to the other suggestion that every class gets the Spec that deals with their class mechanic like Discipline or Arcane turned into an Elite Spec and then balancing around that, the problem is some classes will be screwed over by that.

You act as if no trait has ever been made baseline for warrior in the games existence.

Crinn.7864:

The Mechanic.3567:

they seriously have a point about thief’s trickery line and the requirement for the initiative.

Tickery’s dominance isn’t because of the 3 initiative. If trickery only had the 3 initative trait it would never be taken.

Tickery is always taken because of how good Slight of Hand, Thrill of the Crime, and Bountiful theft are, on top of having Preparedness.

Tickery’s major and minor traits are better than every other core thief traitlines put together.

I wasnt really speaking to the traits. i think you have a point that the major and minor traits are great, and thats why most people take that line. but in my case i think one of the reasons i dont try a different line like crit strikes is because i lose the initiative. i honeslty think that people would at least give chance to other lines if you didnt lose a huge portion of your ability to use any weapon skill. but all that aside i my main complaint is that trickery is so must have for ANY reason whether thats the major/minor traits, the extra initiative, or the reduction in steal time. it really doesnt matter what the reason is. the point is you MUST have it to have a competitive build. id really like to see some things made baseline and have trickery focus on “tricks” and synergizing with the utility skills etc. im not trying to suggest a fix really just trying to point out what i think is a problem.

I wouldnt mind having elemental attunement and evasive arcana made baseline. Then maybe for once ele can afford to take an offensive traitline, and for once play something besides a boring bunker/support build.

I actually think Preparedness should be baseline and Sleight of Hand should take its place as a minor trait. Then they could add a new GM trait and have some actual choice both within and without that specialization. I generally agree with an above poster that I think Fast Hands shouldn’t be baseline.

Can’t speak to the other classes, but making Preparedness (15ini vs 12ini) baseline for thief would be nice. The weapon skills are all obviously balanced for 15, so this one change would open things up for us a good bit.